John F. Kennedy Library Foundation; WGBH Forum Network; Sebastian Junger on War

No one has ever accused our guest speaker Sebastian Younger of writing books that would cause his readers to yawn attracted since childhood to extreme situations and people at the edges of things he writes often about ordinary people and dangerous situations from his harrowing account of the Boston strangler who happened to work as a handyman in the younger's home in Belmont to his white knuckle chronicle of the crew of the Andrea Gail and his best seller The Perfect Storm. And now he has set his focus using what one reviewer calls a laser not a floodlight on how modern warfare is experienced by those who do the fighting. Over the course of 15 months Mr. younger and photojournalist Tim Hetherington were embedded with Battle Company of the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team and the corn gal Valley in eastern Afghanistan a remote outpost that saw more combat with the Taliban than any other region of that war torn country and was deemed at the time the most dangerous place on earth. The result is his newest book War a story about war that is

much more than a war story. What elevates war out of its particular time and place writes One reviewer or the author's meditation on the minds and emotions of the soldiers with whom he has shared hardships dangers and spells of boredom so intense that everyone sits around wishing to hell something would happen and wishes to God it was over when it inevitably does. If you are like me you often learn more about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan from Bob Herbert's columns than through the direct reporting from his colleagues overseas a veteran himself drafted during the Vietnam War and serving in Korea. He decided to be a journalist after returning from his experience in the military. He has won numerous awards for his reporting and commentary including the right and power courage Prize for his fearless articulation of unpopular truths and we learned earlier this evening that he is the hero of Sebastian younger's mother who is here in the front row as well. There are many reasons to have this forum here today on Veterans Day not the least of which being that this institution

honors the memory of a World War II veteran turned president but less well known as the fact that we also housed the papers of Ernest Hemingway whose experience of war as a young man and formed many of his most famous novels and short stories at the Hemingway Centennial held here in 1999. Tobias Wolff suggested that Hemingway's great war work deals with aftermath with what happens to the soul in war and how people deal with that afterward. The problem that Hemingway set for himself and stories like soldiers home Wolf concluded is the difficulty of telling the truth about what one has been through. He knew about his own difficulty in doing that. And Sebastian Younger we have with us this evening one of the great writers of our time an artist of Hemingway's proportions. One reviewer writes that Mr. younger's book on war refracts our vision we see in it that good in us. And regret that we are not better or as Dexter Filkins has written in this new book. Younger is aiming for more than just the boots on the ground narrative of the travails of fighting wars strives to offer

not only a picture of American fighting men but a discourse on the nature of war itself. This is no small ambition. He writes some beautiful sentences about this ugly world. Ladies and gentlemen please join me in welcoming back to the Kennedy Library. Sebastian Younger than Bob. It's a great honor for me to be asked to participate in this program. This is an issue that is so close to my heart has been for so long. And I can tell you right off that. War is just a terrific book. And Restrepo is an equally terrific film. So we'll get started. I have a lot of questions and there's going to be a period for you guys to ask them questions so let's go and Sebastian you can orient us by. Describing this project and just how it got started. Sure.

I've been going to Afghanistan since 1996 96 2000 2001 when the Northern Alliance to Kabul. It looked like a very easy war in 2001. The Afghans were the ones I talked to were incredibly grateful to. The United States to be rid of the Taliban that hated the Taliban. The Taliban crumbled in a couple of weeks. And I mean this is my opinion here. But I think it was such an easy victory that the focus of the United States particularly the Bush administration just wandered and. Refocused on Iraq. And while we were focused on Iraq Afghanistan just fell apart. Nineteen thousand American soldiers was not enough to keep it glued together. This 40000 cops in New York City it wasn't going to work. By 2005 I realized. Wow the military of my country is going to be in Afghanistan in this country that I've kind of

fallen in love with probably for a very long time. And if it doesn't work the Afghan people are going to go through another convulsion of violence and chaos and nihilism just like the 90s. And so I decided to embed with a unit of U.S. military I was with Battle Company of the 173rd. And you know I grew up in the wake of Vietnam. I knew the military had a very complicated frankly troubled reputation then. And I didn't know what to expect and I was just. Overwhelmed by these guys that I was with. How professional how great they were. I just love them and I thought. If they if this battle company of the 173rd goes back to Afghanistan I want to fall one platoon for a whole deployment. They were supposed to go to Iraq. At the last moment they changed they went to Afghanistan they went to the Cornewall Valley. And I had my chance. I wanted to write a book and make a movie. I'd been shooting a little bit of video. That was the plan. I was good and I was going

to go over there as much as I could afford to and my personal life back home. I wound up doing five one month trips to the Cornwall Valley. Most of it spent at this small outpost called Restrepo. The. First tell us roughly how many men there are in a platoon and also give us an idea of who they were just basically the range of ages and their backgrounds. A platoon is about 30 35 men. The Ungol was six miles long battle company basically had four platoons about 150 men American soldiers in the Corps and all. The age range guide. The youngest guy was 18. He came in January. He was a replacement and.

He was just he was 18 he seemed 14. He turned into a very good soldier but that took a couple of months. The oldest guy was 42. I was a pretty successful guy. He was bored. Back home he owned a small business. I think he sold that he got out. I think he was divorced. I can't remember exact details but he was bored and decide you wanted to join the army and so he joined at 40. And you know 18 months later he's on a hilltop getting shot at and I was 45 at the time so I was the oldest oldest person that Restrepo. The soldiers you know what 18 20 year olds are like anything over 30 is you're you know they don't even realize why you're bothering to continue. You know. So I was trying to explain to them that it actually was worthwhile. If you like fact there was something on the other side or you

see we have a clip from the film and then I'll have a couple of questions about the film itself. So if we show that clip. Yes. I don't I'm not sure if my dick is sleeping close enough to tell us that tonight. I prefer not sleeping not talking about it. So you can see the fish in my hand. I get that. They're always like oh you know and they feel sorry for you. The last place on earth is the Valley. We're not ready for you to take it. What are we doing.

Sure string their losses with shrimp where we strap on and shot off flares in the middle of the night. We put up a fire base. We realized once they could not use stretchers we had the upper hand. Urge you to do that as my audio can you hear me. I had an audio problem of the voice which I didn't on with my dictation speaking how bad the numbers are. I prefer not sleep I'm not worried about it than sleep. You see the picture in my head. They're like oh you know and they feel sorry for you. The last place on earth is the gold valley. We're not ready for it. What we

doing. First Friend Lawson's restaurant where Restrepo died was shot off flares in the middle of the night. We put up a fire base. They realized once they could not knock off pure shrapnel we had the upper hand. It takes a little bit every time you want your boy to get hurt. It's really like a big family. You guys what you guys get over it. Steve Jobs once said call me down. I just don't like the way he's only. Just. A bunch of bad guys in the same incident song. He killed five people. I need to know better too that I'm not these people at the bottom of my head I'm guessing that

he's going to help you here in no man's land is always there especially when you can't see what's coming at you. Are you going to go back to the. I have no idea. I still obviously haven't figured out how to deal with the inside. Do we go back right now and say eventually I'll be able to process it differently. I'm never going to forget it. I don't want to not have that as a memory because that was one of the movies that makes me appreciate it. Do it. Well. Now the film starts with footage of some of the men on their way to Afghanistan and you were with them then what were their attitudes like I mean with a excited anxious

fearful. Actually the first bit of footage is on a train in Italy they're based in Italy and tends and that's one of the very very small parts of the movie that we didn't film that was just stuff that they had filmed. We didn't know those guys yet. And so that was put as we got from them it was a little one tipped camera but I can't speak to their attitudes. They're in the 173rd Airborne. That's a combat unit and every guy that I was with at least in battle company had to work very very hard and pass a lot of tests to get into a unit like that. You know they would say to me Look if you just need a paycheck. You can change the oil in a Humvee and a rear base pretty easily. You can volunteer for the Army and do that to get into a combat unit. You actually it's like making the football team you actually kind of have to want it. And so those guys when they were going over there. In May 0 7 the big war was Iraq and they were going to Afghanistan and there are quite a few of them. Their main worry was that they were not going to see any combat.

They were good that they were going to be disappointed. They're going Afghanistan rather than Absolutely they were like were trained to fight and it's going to be a really long year. We're just sort of sitting on sandbags watching you know watching the clock turn slowly. Right so they were. That was one of their anxieties that they were going to spend a year over there and not actually come home with any combat experience. Turns out they didn't have the right to not have to worry about the day when they did show up in the Congo Valley at least some of the men seemed taken aback. I mean they were the young fellow we heard in the clips say you know what are we doing here. And there was another fellow who said his mind told him as he looked around the landscape that he was going to die there. What was it that was so intimidating about that place. It was very very rugged terrain. It was like they dropped those guys in the Colorado Rockies and the previous deployment. I think probably half the unit had been on the previous deployment in 0 5 0 6 and Zabul Province

which is kind of this this moonscape and that was where I'd been with them two years earlier. So they get dropped into essentially the Colorado Rockies and these guys are carrying minimum minimum on the shortest patrols or carrying 80 pounds. Up to 120 on multi-day patrols that carry 150 160 pounds. So you know when you look at some mountains like. The Cornewall it's the it's the it's part of the Hindu Kush mountain range. When you look at those mountains they look very different. If you're just running around in them or you're carrying 150 pounds it's completely different. And they knew it and they knew they were going to have to walk around. With those kinds of loads while fighting. And they just they understood how hard it was going to be. Now you and the photographer Tim Hetherington right. You guys are right with them when you're over there. And you

had an experience yourself. I mean the vehicle you were traveling in was hit with a roadside bomb an IED. So I can tell you this is traumatic in that film and I was there. So tell us about that. Yeah we had a lot of experiences that were deeply frightening. You know the. Thing about combat is that it's so random. I mean one of the best soldiers out there Sergeant Larry Wrubel was killed. And there were guys who you know like Vaughn who showed up at age 18 and had no idea what he was doing and he got out of it OK. And and they all knew that. And and then as a journalist if you're out there and if you start to realize it like wow this is rare. Among other things it's completely random. You know in a firefight I had a I hate telling the story with my mom here. I haven't done this before but I'll proceed. Plug your ears. I you know I had a I was a very very quiet day at

Restrepo and nothing much was happening and I was leaning to get some sandbags and some dirt flew into my face. And you have to understand is that bullets go much faster than the sound of a gunshot. So if someone's shooting at you from a few hundred yards from a quarter mile. The way you know you're getting shot at. At first is that you hear this really bizarre and pretty subtle snapping sound and it's bullets breaking the speed of sound by your head. And then the gunshots come afterwards. So when you get ambushed the first thing that happens is everyone turned looks around with a frown on their face like are we getting shot at. Like that's the first time. And then you hear that and it's clear. Well what happened was. A bullet that hit next to me against the sandbag it was the first round of the first burst of an hour long firefight and it sprayed dirt in my face and I had no idea what it was. I was like What was that. That's random. And once you realize how random it is. You don't really psychologically you don't know what to do. Like

I said here or here. Like should I like it. Cause everything it's like kind of an existential crisis it calls everything into question. So with the IED. The footage that you saw there of the bomb going off under the Humvee that was me. That was this footage that I shot and. It was really pretty traumatic because. It's hard to explain but none of us were hurt. We were fine physically and for the next few hours I I was just on this weird high like I could barely sit still. I was so excited. Sort of I don't know I was just completely amped up. And that night I just crashed and I got incredibly depressed. I didn't get scared. I got sad. I got sad about the whole thing. And it's very easy to sort of sit here in this country and say oh war is such a sad thing it's very easy to say that it is sad but you kind of know that. And at least I know

that in an abstract intellectual way. The experience of war is many things. It's scary. It's exciting. It's profound it's disturbed whatever it's every human emotion that's what war is. But the sadness about it is it's a subtler thing and it immediately when you're over there that sadness immediately gets sort of trampled by these more robust emotions like fear and excitement. You don't get in touch with the sadness while you're there except occasionally. And I did that night. I just had this sort again this sort of existential sort of moment of like oh my God there's 150 young men all of whom I care about tremendously. Fighting a couple of hundred young men who are on the other side. Who I would probably care about if I got at least some of them or I got to know them like what are we doing this is so sad. It just it was just sort of heartbreaking. That feeling went away immediately as soon as we got attacked again. Disappeared was

not interested in the sadness. I was interested in not getting hit by a bullet and going home. But for a while and it gave me terrible terrible dreams for a while that was like my first real moment of it was kind of a moral and our moral sort of spiritual crisis almost as a war reporter sort of started that night. It lasted for a little while. He explained what Restrepo means. Why the film was called Restrepo and the importance of Restrepo to these men. One Sebastian Restrepo his middle name was Sebastian the platoon medic who was born in Colombia or the country of Colombia immigrant to this country I think that's worth noting in this. Today with all of the conversations about immigration we should we should remember that people who have immigrated here are dying for this country. Just throw that in there. I he was Restrepo was the platoon medic and they were

on a routine patrol down to a village called alibied and he was hit in the jaw and throat and he was bleeding out and he was the medic so there was no medic to treat him. He was the medic. So he was in the middle of this firefight. He was you know they were ambushed pretty badly and he was telling his the guys around him how to save his life. And they couldn't do it. And he died. And he was just beloved within the platoon. He was just a great guy. And everyone loved him and he died. And it was just devastating. I think the main trauma of war at least for the guys I was with wasn't almost getting killed. It was the loss of their friends that the grief of losing their friends transcended. I think every other trauma. Combined out there.

So a couple of months a month a month later. They decided to build the outpost. On this ridge that the enemy was using to shoot down into the company headquarters. If you're if you if you need if you have any need to fight a war. One thing you need to know is that it's better to shoot from high ground into low ground than the other way around. That's like the base or like tactic in war. And a lot of war consists of like carrying really heavy stuff up to the top of the hills and shooting down at your enemy like that's basically war. So the battalion commander the company commander decided to put an outpost on this ridge that the enemy was using to fire into the company headquarters and so at night. Second Platoon and third platoon walked up this ridge two hour walk from the main base. They walked up this ridge there with their two picks pick axes and shovels and their weapons and they started hacking away at the rock. There was no sand up there to fill sandbags so they

just hacked away at the rock of these pick axes. And worked furiously all night so that they'd have some protection in the morning because they knew they'd get attacked. The first day the enemy came at them attacked them 13 times. In 13 firefights that day they worked straight for it and fought straight for 24 hours. And they're fighting and digging building this outpost. Yeah. With 100 plus degrees their body armor. I mean just you know working working like a chain gang up there. When they got attacked that was actually a relief because they could light out drink some water. Shoot back. So a relatively relaxed compared to what they're doing. And they built this outpost and it works. It blocked the enemy from attacking the main base. But just to describe it briefly. It was sandbags. They call the rock bags because that's filled with rock bags and ammunition and Emory's that's all they had up there. There was no running water. They couldn't bathe for a month at a time. Because they couldn't bathe. They

didn't change their clothes because they didn't change their clothes. They didn't get out of their clothes they just wore their clothes so they fell off. They went on patrol they come back clothes and dry. You know they glide out and go to sleep get up in the morning do it again a month at a time. They go back to the comfort walk back to the company base get a shower. There was no Internet no phone at Restrepo. So once a month they could call their girlfriends or their wives and get a shower or they get a hot meal. There was no hot food up there and there were you know my first or second day at Restrepo we were attacked four times. Like it was just it got absolutely hammered by the enemy. They were up there for a year. The. Goal was to one of your goals. Was to bring home to civilians here in the United States the real life soldiers in combat under these. Ordinarily stressful conditions so if you could sort of you started doing a little bit of it in talking about the POWs.

But if you a little more about. The daily lives of these soldiers and then we'll talk about what it was like in combat. What was it like living out there. For them it was for 14 or 15. OK so. They as it got colder they built these plywood hatches. They were so narrow so cramped that everyone had a little bunk and I had a bunk. And from where I slept I could reach out and touch three other men. No problem that's so cramped they work. It got very very cold in the core and gall. And you know subzero at night just unbelievably cold. And so they had these little gasoline heaters which sort of cooked the people that were next to them and everyone else froze. And so in these lunches were they. I mean it was I mean you can imagine how they smelled. It was just the machinery of war. It was guns. It was hand grenades. It was

you know Playboy magazines you know pinned to the walls. It was dirty fatigues belts of ammo. I mean it was just like this crazy deadly locker room and everyone go to sleep to wake up in the morning and. You know the guys took guard duty two hour shifts. I didn't. They threatened to make me wish I didn't have to. And so some days nothing happened you just hung out. And other days probably every other day they'd send out a patrol. I did every patrol that I could. The reason that they would send out patrols is that if you just sit on a base the enemy will. Attack you and overrun you. They yerd safety in a situation like that. Depends on the enemy not quite ever knowing exactly where you are. So they'd send out a patrol at midnight. Right. And so we'd go out and we'd creep off down the valley take up a position somewhere watch that enemy held village. We'd stay out

there for. Three hours or six hours or 24 hours or one hour. They always buried it and they always went to a different place. So they were constantly sending out these patrols and the Taliban would find out OK. While the patrols over there now it's over there today. They didn't send one out today or did they. The Taliban never quite knew what they were doing and that was that was where our safety lay. So you never knew like someday you just might be sitting around and the guys smoked cigarettes and nothing happened other days you might be you might leave at midnight on a 24 hour walking patrol and get back at midnight the next night could just completely utterly exhausted. You never knew. So now in these periods when. They're not engaged in combat. Extended periods of time. Where their attitudes like I mean did they have fun. Were they bored. Were they. Riddled with anxiety. What was that like for them. They were all of those things.

All the attacks came when you least expected it. It's almost the definition of an attack like the enemy doesn't attack when you expect them to attack. It's stupid. So every day there was no peaceful moment because at least somewhere in your mind you knew. Two seconds from now we could be in a massive firefight. There was an outpost called ranchhouse chosen company one valley to the north. They got attacked 20 men 20 man outpost. They got attacked by 300 Taliban fighters. The enemy just like that at 4:00 in the morning boom. The guys were fighting in their underwear they were throwing hand grenade. They were coming out of their hutches in their underwear throwing hand grenades because the enemy was inside the base. The Taliban had taken over half of the base. They were inside the American bunkers using using American weapons to shoot into the other half of the base. That could happen at any moment and you knew it. And as one of these guys said to me some of the scariest stuff out there never happened. It was the stuff we were scared of and your fears could drive you

crazy and you didn't even need to have an attack to experience all the fear and anxiety of what could happen five minutes from now. So that was the base layer. Psychologically you know above that there was incredible amounts of boredom. I mean three or four days could go go by without a firefight and the guys maybe a week even and the guys would just. They'd be sitting or sitting around praying for combat like farmers pray for rain in a drought. You know that because you have to understand there's nothing that young men like is out there. You know there's no girls there's no alcohol there's no TV there's no sports there's absolutely nothing to do except fight. And so if you take everything else away. And the most intense thing you've ever experienced in your life. Including you know whatever happened with your girlfriend back in high school the most intense thing you've ever experienced is combat and nothing else is happening. You're going to you're going to wish for combat. It's a

very complicated thing. And in their boredom. I mean you know as you all probably know like if you take men and you separate them from the women and children and you put them on a construction crew or you put them on a fishing boat or you put them in an outpost. They get very very vulgar and they get very very funny. And those guys were both things to a degree that I really I think can't really even quite describe. Now talk a little bit about your guys and Sequim Patou in combat. Well. There's sort of two different kinds of combat. There's there's the sort of easy fun kind where you're attacked in a place where you have good cover basically the outpost. So if you weren't actually getting overrun like ranchhouse if it was just a standard

attack on the outpost there was great cover everywhere and the guys got up to you know got to you know shoot off a lot of heavy munition at these barren hillsides where they you know knew the Taliban were were were hiding and shooting from that they liked. And it's not very complicated. You know what's much more complicated is when you're ambushed in the open. And the enemy is maneuvering on you. That kicks off a very complicated it's almost like a football play like OK the 240 gunner lays down suppress and the saw gunners lay down suppressive fire while one squad maneuvers to get behind cover to get a better position. That squad starts to lay down fire and then another squad moves and it's a it's a very kind of complicated choreography and it's all being run by the lieutenant who is on the radio with the main base telling them where he thinks they're getting hit from so they can drop mortars on those positions. Sometimes they drop drop white phosphorus which would send up these incredible clouds of

white smoke which would obscure the Taliban gunners vision. Like you they can't you can't shoot through smoke you don't know where you're shooting at that would allow the platoon to get to a better place. And that's terrifying being shot out in the open where you don't have any cover even if it takes you three seconds to get to cover those three seconds are absolutely horrible. And what it means is that every time you're walking around. On patrol every time you're a too you know it's there was there were holly trees and boulders and stuff but you'd be walking areas where maybe from here to there you know there's a boulder here and there's a tree there and you got 10 feet to cross. Every time you walk those 10 feet on every single patrol you think if we get hit right now I'm screwed. And then you get to that tree and you're fine and that it again it's this sort of existential crisis like oh my god I'm wide open. Ok now I'm not now wide open to get in. And guys see patrols they see walking basically as. I might behind something or not behind something. It can really drive you crazy

but they don't they don't freak out. I mean they're under fire. They're firing back. They're taking cover. When they when they can but they don't lose it. They don't become hysterical. They continue to function professionally and effectively. How is it that that comes to be. There's several reasons. I mean they're very very effective. They're incredibly self-possessed. I mean there were guys who literally were you know were watching bullets hit hit around them and were continuing to fire continuing to function. There were guys who had bullet holes in their in their fatigues. You know for rounds that didn't hit them and cut the fabric. So there's different reasons. One is that their safety. Comes from their ability to function. If if if it's really simple if someone is shooting at you. You cannot stick your head up and aim and shoot back effectively.

So basically the person who puts out the most firepower accurate firepower. Starts to control the conversation between the two sides. That conversation in. Bullets between the two sides the side that puts out more firepower controls that conversation. And once you have control of the conversation you can move and you get behind cover and then everything starts go in your way. So they know that if they stop firing suddenly the enemy controls the conversation. All this firepower is coming in and you can't even stick up your head to shoot back. They know that. OK. The other thing that they know it's drilled into them is that you know I don't do my job. I'm on the radio. My job is to communicate with help the lieutenant communicate with the base. If I don't do my job we don't get mortars we get pinned down. Someone gets killed. My best friend gets killed. I can't live with that. My whole life. I'd rather I'd rather be dead. So I'd rather I'd rather risk dying or I'd rather die than live out my life knowing that my

best friend died because I didn't do my job. The thing they feared most was causing the death of a brother as they call each other brother. So here what's the choice. You're a 19 year old saw gunner and you know you're. Your team leader is telling you to lay down suppressive fire because your buddies in the wide open getting hammered. And he needs to get behind cover and you no I'm just going to stay behind this tree and not shoot back because that's not conceivable. And so they don't think of it as bravery. They just think of it as. Look it's my friend it's my brother. This is what soldiers do. And then he would do the same thing and that guy would do the same thing. And I mean Brendan the guy I got closest to out there Brendan O'Byrne he said to me at one point he said you know it's crazy. The guys in the platoon who straight up hate each other but we would all die for each other. But I thought about that sentence for a long time and I thought about this sort of related thing is like why is it that that men come back from war and the battle company it was all men that.

There are no women in that unit there are no women in combat units I believe. Why is it that they can come back from war such a terrible thing and miss it. What is it they miss. Do they really miss almost getting killed. Probably not. They miss killing. Probably not. What is it they miss. And I started to understand it. They miss the brotherhood. You can't. Brotherhood is not available in civilian society. Friendship is but friendship is a function of how you feel about a person what you do for a friend depends on how you feel about that person. You don't like someone you're not going to die for him you probably won't even lend 10 bucks right. In combat in this brotherhood It has nothing to do with how what you how you feel about the other person. It's a brotherhood that has nothing to do with feelings. It's a it's a shared agreement or reciprocal agreement. I'll risk my life for

you and I know you'll risk your life for me. It has nothing to do with whether I pissed you off. Pissed you off yesterday. Like what you don't want in combat is to wonder if the guy you upset yesterday is actually going to like cover for you in a firefight you don't want to have to wonder that that's how Brotherhood works. It removes those sort of messy interpersonal relationships. From the agreement to all protect each other with. Your own your own life and. Just a sort of final note on that. I started to think like for a 20 year old. Like a 20 year old guy 19 year old guy you're basically at the bottom of the food chain. Socially like girls are all dating older guys. You can't get a job you like you're you're really sort of you don't have a lot going and. The things that you are valued for you have no control over them like if you're born good looking. That's great. That

makes high school you know pretty nice time but you have no control over that. If your dad has a good job if you're wealthy family whatever and 19 you don't have control over those things. So the way society sees you the way women see you the way your peers see you. Depend on things you have no control over. Now you go into combat. And you're completely self-defining. Like in a platoon in a situation like that. Nobody cares if you're ugly or good looking what your dad does for a living. They don't care about anything except that whether you're a good soldier don't fall asleep on guard duty and be prepared to risk your life to save my life. That's it. And. Courage is a choice. It's not something you're born with it's a choice. So all of these guys no matter how neglected and disempowered or whatever in society. In combat they can be exactly the person they want to be. Not all of them rise to that but they it's at least available to them and they're part of that brotherhood. Now for a

19 year old what a secure place to be emotionally psychologically. Imagine. And then they come back and all of a sudden they're judged for these things that are now out of their control. They have friends but they don't know the depth of that friendship is it profound or is it shallow. All these things are suddenly variable and it makes civilian life actually in a weird way more threatening psychologically threatening than the worst combat situation. The. It's a big deal. One of the fellows in your unit Sal Giunta is going to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor next week. I mean that's incredible. So. And you wrote in detail about the. Engagement and I guess in which he displayed such bravery and he's going to get this medal. So what can you tell us about that. When I was out there the enemy started to figure out ambushes how to do them.

And they got better and better at them. So Operation got operation Rock Avalanche. They overran American positions up on this ridge. They killed sort of Larry rule wounded two other guys grabbed their gear their weapons their ammunition. They're there. One of their rucksacks. I mean it was they were right on literally on top of those guys and they made off with them. That's hard to do. Very good soldiers. They did it in a few days later on the last day of that operation. First Platoon I was with 2nd Platoon first platoon. I didn't know those guys as well. And I knew them and as well first platoon was up on this ridge providing what's called overwatch. They have the high ground. Everyone else is going back out of their positions towards the base when you're leaving an area you're at your most vulnerable. So they always have someone left behind to watch everyone else. And then once everyone else is in position those people watch the last unit to expel.

Well first platoon started to ex-MIL infiltrate exfiltrate they started to ex-MIL at night on the gotta go sper and they were walking down on the top of this ridge and the enemy had set up in an L-shaped ambush like if you want to ambush somebody. And you put a bunch of your guys on one side of the trail and a bunch of the other rescue guys on the other side of the trail you just kill each other don't do it that way. L-shaped ambush. That's what it sounds like. You have to live like that and you're not shooting at each other you're just shooting at the enemy. And first platoon walked straight into an L-shaped ambush. They walk into 15. 15 fighters with RPG is. Heavy laden heavy machine guns and. From distances of like 30 40 feet very very close. The entire first squad got hit immediately. The entire lead squad got hit within seconds. And.

Started just Brennan was in the lead he was walking point. And so what these guys did they did exactly what I was talking about before they laid down this massive I mean imagine they walk at night into an ambush and they manage to not all get killed. They laid down this massive firepower. Everyone did what they were supposed to do. Giunta started throwing hand grenades and running towards the front of the line because he knew the guys in the lead would have been in trouble because they were taking the brunt of this. He got to the second guy in line and his friend Josh Brennan is missing. And he keeps running and throwing hand grenades. He gets hit by bullets in his plate his vest he runs. And he finally sees his friend Josh being carried off by two enemy fighters at night on a ridge at the southern end of the Korngold Valley dragged off alive. And he killed the guys who were carrying them. And he rushed up and Brennan had been hit eight times. And he sat with him and started to treat him and protect him. And they brought in a medivac. Tragically Josh died on the medivac.

But Sal. Sal Giunta. Within a couple of months there was talk that he might be up for a Medal of Honor. And I talked to him about it when I was out there. He was very very conflicted and ambivalent about that he was really very uncomfortable with the idea of getting a medal. He's like look Josh is my friend. You're going to give me a medal for trying to save my friend. Like don't call that bravery. That's friendship like I mean we almost felt kind of insulting to him and it all seems like everyone was brave. I was just the guy who got to Josh but I wouldn't have gotten to Josh if everyone else hadn't been doing just as heroic things to help me out. Like don't just give me a medal. Everyone's going to hate me. You know like. And he said give the whole platoon a medal but don't single me out come on. I didn't do anything. I did what everyone else did. He was really conflicted about it. At any rate. The medal was approved and it will be. Awarded to him next Tuesday in

Washington. I'm going down for that to be with him. I actually in addition to Restrepo timin I directed a short film 40 minute film on Genta because we had a lot of footage of him and the combat and all that. So it's on our Web site. So if you want to watch it it's it's pretty interesting. RESTREPO the movie if you if you're interested in Sal He's an amazing amazing young man. I think I said that sounds from the second platoon he's from the first platoon salaries from first platoon battle company are all from battle come first platoon second lieutenant. You know one of the biggest things that I took away from the book and the film was what I think of as the sort of the. Maddening ambiguities of the mission and it's never clear what the guys were. It was never clear to me at least what the guys were supposed to be doing their second platoon is a very small unit. They're not responsible for taking over a lot of territory. They had very little

contact with the local population. So it's not their job to win over hearts and minds. Is is it really that ambiguous. And to to what extent do the guys themselves know what their purposes being are. OK. I'll just I'll explain it from the top down. Second platoons job. Like that. The roles in the military are very narrow and closely defined. Right. Second Platoon job was not to win hearts and minds or win the war in Afghanistan or a second Bethune's job was to protect the main base like it's very very literal like they're shooting at us from that ridge. We need to own that ridge second platoon. That's your job now with the main base there. Captain Kearney was in charge of you know quote hearts and minds and so that weekly meetings with the locals with the elders of each village happened on the main base. In.

The main base kept getting attacked those meetings would not happen there would be no relation. You know the whole thing sort of falls apart. So second platoon. The men of second platoon did not have sort of like anguish sort of debates about what are we doing here. Like they knew what they were there to protect base and then say but you can take that. Its an infinite regression like. OK. So why was that base there. Why was the Kornel outpost the company headquarters in Cornwall. The core of the matter is six miles long like it didn't matter. It didn't matter in and of itself. And right now I'm explaining to you military logic I'm not giving you my point of view. I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm just explaining to you the rationale in military terms for the decision to put men in the corps on golf. That's it. The base was there because it was a very very good place for the insurgents to to use as a launching

point for attacks further north. It was a perfect Valley for these insurgents to use. And the Korngold didn't matter except as a base for the insurgents and the insurgents. What they were attacking out of the Cornewall was the Pesh River Valley in the past actually kind of did mattered. Matter. It. Was a big population center. There was a lot of Commerce a lot of agriculture. It was a major transit route into Nuristan. The Americans were paving a road you know with a road comes security government access rule of law like the first thing they do is pave the roads and then you can get all these other. Aspects of society into these remote areas and then the local I mean this is again this is military theory. Then the locals have it. They have access to trade goods they can sell their crops. Outside of their little local region more easily. So they have an investment in the economy in good government. Like the whole thing ideally snowball. So.

The Pesh was just a shooting gallery while the insurgents while the Taliban had the Koran gone as soon as they put bases in the Cornewall attacks on the past almost completely stopped. I can keep progressing if you want right to. Should we be in Afghanistan but just sort of in a local sense. That was the logic of Restrepo Korngold Pesh like that was the sort of logic of it. So I'm going to regress for once. No no no not that way. What if peace is too scary for me. I'm kind of regressed one step because you mentioned Captain Kearney and here it is. This is currently speaking to a group of elders from a nearby village. This is a quote. You know five or 10 years from now the Korngold Valley will have a road going through it that's paved. And we can make more money make you guys richer make you guys more powerful. What I need though is I

need you to join with the government you know provide us with that security or help us provide you guys with that security and I'll flood this whole place with money and with projects and with healthcare and with everything. And in the film you see that the elders actually are more concerned with some locals who have who have been killed by biology guys and they seem more interested in that. But if if Kearney is actually out there talking about a road over the next five or 10 years what are we to make of this. He. I don't know why is it five or 10 years. I mean we're currently working on the road when we were there. They weren't able to finish and even if they weren't talking about the road the road wouldn't take five or 10 years to build. But but even if you eliminate the road part but it would be another five or ten years before he is doing these before. The

government Afghan and U.S. governments are going to be able to bring these benefits to the folks. When you hear him saying this you don't get the impression that any of this is ever going to work. Well you know it did occur in the Pesh like the river they they put a road through. There's a trade school in Asadabad. They were training young Afghans in to work. It's a very poor area. And so it didn't happen in the Korean War because the Korngold was sort of tactically too problematic and. It also just there probably weren't enough soldiers there like a hundred fifty men in that valley. It wasn't enough. And so Kearney was sort of giving boilerplate inducements to join with the you know get with the program in some areas of Afghanistan. That program actually was happening. I mean like I you know I was in Kabul in 96 and it was just bombs to rubble. Now there's high rises there's there's cell

phones it's sort of a modern looking city it's completely unrecognizable. The quaint old Kabul is gone. But if you ask the Afghans who live there like their site this is like finally they're getting back to where Kabul was in the 70s before the. Soviets invaded. So it is I mean you're right about the Korngold but there are areas where everything Kearney was promising actually did happen OK the we're going to have to wrap it up and go to questions in a couple of minutes but. Maybe I'll wrap it up with this. The film ends with these words printed on the screen. In late 2009. The U.S. military began withdrawing from the Congo Valley and in fact by 2010 that withdrawal was completed. So. Does that mean that the efforts of second tomb in the valley

and others who were in that valley. Does that mean that that those efforts were pointless. God I mean. In some ways yes in some ways no. I mean if if it was important to bring development to the Passhe and to the rest of Kuhn are. They dismantled those bases once that process was over and they sort of felt like they didn't they didn't need to. They didn't they didn't need to basically like block that the Taliban in that valley so they could get those projects done. Also you know I mean you know it's commanders in every war I'm sure feel that they don't have enough men and don't have enough resources. So they're constantly making choices about OK is this sort of area of the battlefield just not as important as it was five years ago. Is this other area that we've neglected. Do we actually need to use our scarce resources over there now. There was a general sort of revamping of strategy a couple of years ago. It's called population

centric counterinsurgency. And they were realizing that these remote outposts. Were sort of costing more than they were benefiting the effort. And what they needed to do was put the soldiers. Around population centers and bring security to a greater proportion of Afghans these remote outpost were protecting tiny villages. They are parts of the population that will really never be engaged in government anyway. So. I mean in that sense it was just a strategic decision by commanders I mean autem way lesser scale than I mean even if you called it a mistake and maybe it was I don't know. Even as a mistake. That's that's what happens in war. Like people die because of mistakes. That's exactly what war is. Dunkirk. You know we lost thirty thousand thirty thousand soldiers at Dunkirk complete massive blunder. So

it's sort of what war is and it's I'm not saying we should or shouldn't have been in the corner. But that's the soldiers. As painful as it was to pull out of the corps. I mean the guy is like a platoon. We're just incredibly upset when they pulled out. I mean they were beside themselves but they also kind of understood like that's what it is. That's why it's all so incredibly tragic. Thank you so much. We're now going to turn it over to you guys to ask what you will. And if you haven't read the book War read it. If you haven't seen the film Restrepo make sure that you do. Sebastian thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I want to thank you for writing the book. I know a few young men. Over there. And. They don't talk about what it is that you were able to say I appreciate that.

Thank you. I'm wondering. What he was thinking before you went and how you justify to your family you had to be a little. Crazy to go on with that. When I first went. I didn't realize how much combat there would be. I kind of thought had the same thoughts that second platoon was having like wow. I bet we're just going to sit around for a year and I had committed to this project. I'm like OK. You know a decent writer. Can turn a story about a platoon sitting around for a year into a good book so he like just do it. And then I got there and sort of it all went crazy. I don't I don't I wouldn't say exactly justified what I was doing but. What I tried with my wife what I tried to do was say maybe that I wasn't going to do anything on this scale again in combat which I think will be true.

I had a B. I just never told her how bad it was. She's sort of found out at the ends and. And I also sort of explain that in situations like that you can be stupid and foolhardy or you can be cautious and safer. And I'm I get scared very easily. I pay attention to what I am scared like I like I'm I'm very I'm actually very cautious and. I try to think in a very calculated way about what risks are worth it and what risks aren't. And I just had the feeling that my country is like in two decade long wars. And I had the feeling that there was. A real social good in spending a lot of time with one unit and trying to explain to people in this country. What it's like for those guys. Not politically not strategically all those arguments and

discussions that happen that need to happen. They're great. But I wanted people to know what it feels like to be a 20 year old man in combat for a year. How it affects him why he misses it when he comes home what he's scared of. I wanted to explain those things so that when these guys come home we have some sort of basis of understanding of what they went through so we can get them back successfully. I felt that there was a real good in that and that's worth a certain amount of risk. My son and I appreciate your view. Good luck to them. I was in Vietnam in 67 and some of my good friends with the 173rd in Vietnam. My question is is there a difference in that soldier today in Afghanistan versus Vietnam. Listening to you it sounded identical. They were known for being very aggressive. Most of the nations were removed from central authority so they were kind of freewheeling. And so is the

is that soldier today different. And and also the role that sometimes you hear the soldier today has to be a statesman as well especially for a vigorous fighting unit like the 173 73 that can be very difficult. Your comments on that. Yeah. I mean in terms of the statesman role that would really fall to the officers. Captain Kearney. Captain Dan Kearney the lieutenants even the soldiers. I mean the enlisted guys they're really security. For the sort of diplomatic efforts that are happening on the ground conducted by Kirti and and and the lieutenant who the platoon leaders you know they didn't have privates and specialists conducting. Diplomacy. I mean it just they these guys were security and they knew it. And that's what they were good at. I got to say that the officers that I knew were just unbelievably smart motivated thoughtful guys. I mean. They

were they were. I was just amazed by that huge cultural gap to cross and all that but they were you couldn't ask for sort of. Better or better men in those roles. And I was very very impressed by them. Are they the same guys the soldiers. Yeah. I mean combat the essential is the emotional reality of combat hasn't. Always been the same you know it's never really changed. And. I think men adapt to it in the same ways and I think if you had been up there with me you would be having flashbacks. To your experience. I mean in the sense of wow there's that guys just like my buddy you know like you wouldn't you would be remember. I think you'd be remembering people in your youth from your service you see them all around you. That platoon. Thank you for your insights that's for all of us today. Thank you. I have a question about the poppies in Afghanistan and the consequences of this war.

I understand that when the Russians left Afghanistan there was about 15 10 to 15 percent of the army ended up addicted to heroin and 10 15 years later they're offering all kinds of medical crisis and related to TB and HIV and hepatitis C related to this. I want to find out. You know you talked about these young men they're 20 years old some of them are coming from disadvantaged situations. They're now in this war where they have a lot of control. They're going to come back. There's a lot of emotional issues related to it. Does the heroine I mean just the opium poppy and heroin issues in Afghanistan and the prevalence of it there and the fact that it supplies 90 percent of the world's population with heroin concern you with these troops. I mean the the poppy crop in Afghanistan plays a very destructive role in the war and in that society and you could argue in the world. I think very little of it gets to the soldiers. I mean there were nobody out at.

RESTREPO nobody was on anything. I think you know there was once in a while some parents would send some vodka and a bottle of mouthwash. You know like that was about it. I think there was probably a little bit of pot smoking but you know I mean I have a. Karl Marlantes friend of mine a wonderful author who wrote a novel called Matterhorn a amazing novel about Vietnam incredible an outpost very similar to Restrepo except they were about a thousand times war combat. And. He said that when he was a lieutenant he was a young lieutenant in command of a platoon at a remote outpost and he said one night he heard a kind of thumping like beating sound going on down the road. Elsewhere in the outpost and the next day as the platoon sergeant. Like what was that what was going on. And he said Oh some of the boys caught one you know one of them smoking pot. And. So they beat him up so he wouldn't do it again. And at those

outposts it's too dangerous to not have your act together. I mean that's the thing is like if you don't tie your shoe laces you get yelled at not by the lieutenant. But by your buddy. He's like listen man if we get hit right now you trip over those things. I'm dead. Like that shit. You know like don't let me down here. And so if they can get upset about shoelaces imagine being stoned like they just don't. Everyone's life is at risk. In virtually everything that everyone does. So. When you read even as a reporter out there I really feeling like OK if I don't you know we're going to a long patrol 24 hour patrol I need to Heider I need to drink a lot of water because if I dehydrate I'm twice the age of these guys. I'm in good shape. But like if I dehydrate and I eat my head start to have leg cramps and I slow the platoon down and we get hit it's it's on me you know. So everything you did. You realized could have consequences not just for you. That really doesn't matter as much as for everyone else. So getting stoned out there it's like was not going to happen on the big bases. I can

easily imagine it but I didn't spend any time on those bases. I think it's probably more pot and alcohol than heroin though. Thank you that's reassuring. I thank you for your insights so far. I'm a high school history teacher in Dorchester and I teach the 20th century in U.S. history and so we spend a lot of time on wars and 20th century. I'm about to start a long unit on the soldiers experience and the civilians experience in war. And I'm wondering what you would recommend in terms of helping students understand the realities of war especially from a soldier's point of view. You mean in terms of what you read or what. I mean. God. Tim O'Brien the things they carried is amazing. I thought dispatches I mean it's. About a journalist really but it's about soldiers dispatches by Michael Herr. It's amazing. There's an

encouraging and devastating book novel about World War One called Johnny got his gun. Just I mean. Devastating. You know I would humbly recommend my book too. I mean I mean the point of my book was to explain to civilians what it feels like. That was what I was trying to do with it. I mean I almost didn't wear it. I toyed with the idea of not even using the word Afghanistan in my book. I didn't want anyone to think that this is about Afghanistan and the policy issues and that strategic problems I try. I thought about not even using that word. I wanted it to be about the universal experience of combat. That's what the. That's what it was for and so your students may find some insights in there too. Hello. I just want to thank you for running the book. I just finished reading it this week and I have to give you a lot of credit because you got my wife to actually read a military book. Thank you.

You're welcome. We have a son who just recently joined the Army's only 21 infantry man. Will be supposedly going over to Afghanistan in the springtime. And you have a chapter in your book where you write about devotion to the squad and how that really binds those guys together. And I want to just relate this to something that happened in the news we read about a sergeant recently as I'm sure you probably read who was targeting civilians in Afghanistan had his squad with him sort of from what I've read. Forcing them to do it. And my question to you is with that devotion to that squad How do we expect some 18 or 19 year old soldier who knows that's wrong with that if a sergeant goes off kilter like that to report something like that because he's probably going to be putting his own life in danger and that devotion to a squad is so strong especially if an outpost something like Restrepo I would what would happen. I mean how is somebody supposed to make that right. Yeah. Oh it's a great question. I mean that's the that's the you could argue that the

downside of devotion of brotherhood is they can it can lead you down to very bad paths and it really depends on leaders acting well as well as leaders act badly. That same brotherhood and devotion turns into I mean look the German army in World War II. You know it turns into this sort of monstrous endeavor. All that you know I'm sure the German soldiers had exactly the same bond with each other that I saw Restrepo. It was just towards this ghastly end. And so it really does depend on the leaders. Fortunately very few squad leaders. Are sociopaths. That guy is a sociopath. You know fortunately very few of them are and that guy would probably be killing people in society here. It's just easier over there. And he put his men in a terrible position terrible terrible position and there was sort of no way for them to win either they betray the trust of that unit or they or they become

murderers themselves. It's just ghastly. I don't know what the answer is probably better psychological screening. Thank you. Yeah. I don't either. Good to read your book and I think it's great. Thank you. I'm a student in what I was wondering is I have to read a paper. On. Whether we should be in Afghanistan right now or not. Oh that's an easy one. Since you're a man of experience it's just like your opinion on that. Oh God. You want to air enough. Lincoln. That sets a complicated. Ok I'll try to be clear in brief. And on and off the record. Yeah. I mean here. I'm just stating my opinion. I just want to clarify the terms right. I'm a journalist. I don't. Tell people how to think and I don't. Tell people they should

think like me but I am in a good position to make things clearer so that. You all can make better decisions. Right. So. There's. There's two I can see two very very good reasons for pulling out of Afghanistan. One is that it's not making us safer. That would be the argument. And the other reason is that civilians are getting killed. So. If you say should we be in Afghanistan presumably you're tackling those one of those two questions in your mind. So all the bottom up and I'll try to answer them briefly. I've been going to Afghanistan since the 90s. The toll in human suffering and civilian death in the 90s was. Astronomical. According to Human Rights Watch. Something like 400000 Afghan civilians were killed in the 90s. OK.

That that era ended effectively ended in 2001 when U.S. entered Afghanistan. After 9/11 NATO followed soon thereafter. In the decade not even decade in the nine years since NATO has been there. The highest estimates of civilian casualties that I've read are 30000. So you go from 400000 in one decade to 30000 in the next one. If your reason for leaving Afghanistan is based on the welfare of the Afghans. Those numbers become problematic. If. If I thought that civilians would stop dying at all when NATO pulled out. I would. That's a pretty good pretty convincing argument to pull out. Unfortunately I'm not convinced that that's the case. Tragically tragically I think it's going to go back to the 90s. I wish that weren't so and we had a simple

solution and we could leave. It's more complicated than that. The other issue is security. No I don't know. No one knows if our presence in Afghanistan has prevented another 9/11. There's no way to know that. The alternative to being there I suppose just logically is OK we leave. And if we have 9/11 every 10 years that may be a lower cost than being over there. I don't know. That's for the nation to decide. There's no way to sort of know that. But that is the logical alternative. And the people who say that that's a lower cost they may well be right. You know economically in terms of blood they may be right as a journalist. I'm not in a position to make that call but I think those those are the issues that are that were trying to decide. I just don't know what the answers are. Thank you very much. Thank you. Jack just a question just a very brief answer. What are your feelings about the multiple tours this year. Sir sir I just

saw a story about a guy who was killed on his ninth tour and there was a story a few weeks ago about a fellow on his 12 story tour. It is a volunteer army. You have any thoughts about that. I mean we're overstretched. You know if I could. Why. Why are they doing. Not all tours are 15 months. By the way some are three months or six months or a year. But and people are not doing. Nine or 10 tours frequently but it is common through three or four or five. I mean I think that's happening because we went to Iraq. I mean if you want the short version you know I mean I think Afghanistan I mean realistic we ate with we had focused the amount of attention and money and resources on Afghanistan that got poured into Iraq. I think Afghanistan would be Bosnia now in other words it would be a sort of troubled country that is gradually going itself back together after 20 years of trauma. That didn't happen. We went to Iraq. I know people there are. I understand that that you can

articulate good things that came out of that war. I understand that. I don't want to get into that debate. Personally I was against it. But. I do understand that there are two sides of the debate but just sticking to Afghanistan that that was the tragedy is that we may or may not have lost the Iraq war but Iraq may have cost us the Afghan war and now guys are doing multiple tours. Everyone in the second platoon except Brendan O'Byrne. Chose to stay in the army despite the multiple tours like their soldiers and that. They understand that's what they're going to have to do. Those guys second platoon they just finished their next appointment after the one I was on with them. They're just finishing it up now. I don't know what to do about it. We're stretched too thin. I think the alternative conceivably is a draft but that has other enormous complicated downsides. The soldiers do not want a draft not the ones I know they're like listen we don't want someone pulling guard duty who doesn't want to be here. Like forget it like don't do that. It's like it's not going to

work any better than having a draft for the police department or the fire department. Like you don't want that. So I really don't know what the answer is. Work. So I was a platoon leader in Iraq and in watching Restrepo I think we don't see a lot of like film time with the owners and so I just sort of assume that they didn't play maybe as active a role but the need to talk today. It sounds like they went on every patrol so sort of what made you decide when you're editing to sort of leave out. Not that I'm criticizing your editing but I feel like. We. Basically we were trying to make a movie where the. That we gave our viewers the maximum amount of emotional access to that reality. To those soldiers. And there were soldiers who. Were great guys who we were good friends with but they just weren't comfortable in front of the camera particularly they

they were low guarded. They were a little shy often. The platoon leader was Steve Gillespie and. I think partly because of his position. I mean he really liked the we were good friends with Steve but you know you know you turn the camera on him and he just got a little bit official a little bit. Careful you know. And so when we did our interviews in Italy after the deployment we follow those guys to Piceno three months later we did studio interviews with our principal characters. And those principal characters were basically the people that we thought could communicate emotionally in the most effective way with the viewers. Steve as great a lieutenant as he was and as great a guy as he was was not that. So you drop out you know once you drop out of the group we had for the Italy interviews. Suddenly the footage the footage. But the people that are in those interviews becomes less. You can do less with it it's less interesting and so you know it's a 90 minute film based on a 15

month deployment. And it's. You just make these terrible terrible choices. I mean agonizing choices and one of them was to not have Stephen there because he was such a great guy but it just didn't quite work. I. Thank you also for your book. How far out was air assets for you guys up in that valley St. Paul and. What was available. Air assets were like that you know the air assets were 30 40 minutes away so we got attacked. It would take they could get mortars going and artillery rounds come in from Camp Blessing within minutes. But air assets the Apaches the A-10s took about half an hour. The area basically was a fair fight for half an hour. And the enemy knew that of course they would often attack half an hour before dusk. So they didn't have they have half an hour without Apaches and then then it would be dusk. It was at this weird half white where it's

too bright for night vision goggles and too dark. To not use night vision goggles and a really messed up the Apache pilots. And so the enemy sort of figured that out. So half an hour before dusk was off and when they attacked. Their smart guys they're fighting. I mean we're fighting very very smart people over there. I haven't read your book but I will now. Thank you. I'm Charlene and I was in Army during the Vietnam era and I am now a therapist and I work as a volunteer with soldiers from any area that they come back in. Perhaps Mr. Herbert would also have some comments that I came up here with one question and as I listened to you that it just gets so more that in looking at the Vietnam vets and comparing them as I hear you talk. There were not brotherhood with the guys that were in Vietnam. They moved them in and out so quickly that they didn't have a time to coalesce

us as brothers. And so I don't think that there might have been the same kinds of feelings that you describe. But I am open to some some information on that. And then I think so I think we learned that to train soldiers as a group and to send them as a group and all of that may have come out of that. The other thing I think we may have learned is about welcoming people back. Vietnam was not a popular war. People were ignored. Soldiers coming back were not treated very well. But now we welcome them and that has also been a very healing thing for the Vietnam vets. A couple of years ago on this day I was down at the wall because I was living in D.C. and there has been a change just like a second order change. The Vietnam veterans are now saying they feel better about their service they're beginning to heal. So I want to I want to go back to your question or your comment then about wanting to know what it was like for a 20 year old to be in combat. Because in volunteering to work with our soldiers

I'd like to know what I can do. You know what can I share with my colleagues about what it's going to take because at this point we are looking at all of the concussions and the brain damage and the after effects of that and the PTSD kids who are 19 and 20 have not yet formulated a theoretical sense of their morality and we know that that's a part of what went on in for them to come back. We've got to get to the I'm sorry at the end of your question if that can be my statement and you can give me feedback on that what can I do to me. I mean you know there's the physical. Ramifications of combat like TBI. I know very little about. I don't know anything about that. The psychological ramifications. I mean they depend on what happens to the guy like in the corner. All. The fighting was up in the hills. It was not in villages It certainly wasn't in cities.

They just American soldiers I was with never saw dead enemy fighters and never saw that civilians once. Once from a bomb dropped that day wasn't there a bomb dropped it was there you know it's like that wasn't their decision. So they didn't have these awful sort of like moral crises where at these like checkpoint situations in Iraq where you think you're getting attacked with a car bomb and here stop with a senior adviser and a family like that's devastating. That didn't happen to the guys I was with where I was you know. I mean again as I said before I think removing the inadvertent killing of innocents from the equation probably the most devastating effect of combat is losing your. Friends. Like just think about it this way. Imagine you got I mean this is mostly an older crowd. OK so imagine your sons in high school. He's walking down the street with his best best friends. At a car swerves and. Kills the friend in front of your son. Like the guy bleeds out bleed to death in your

son's arms by the side of the road. That's his high school spirit that happens to him senior year in high school. OK. Imagine how long it would take your son to get over that experience of seeing his best friend killed in front of him. He wouldn't get over it. That's combat. And not only does that happen it happens over and over and even worse not even worse. But in addition. That imaginary high school boy has no reason to think that tomorrow he could be dead from. I mean it's a freak accident there's no reason to think that with soldiers not only are they losing their best friends they're losing it in the ways that they're watching it happen. They're feeling guilty that they can't prevent it. I couldn't stop him from bleeding. He bled out and I got to turn it wrong like that kind of thing. Not only are they blaming themselves. But they're also thinking. Shit that could have been me. That's going to be me tomorrow. That's the trauma of combat. So they come back. I mean just picture your son in high school having that happen. That's a soldier

coming home. That's what has to be dealt with. And on top of it. A lot of them miss it. So untangled that. You know it sometimes it takes them a lifetime to think. Thank you so much. The things we can do as civilians. Is pay much more attention to what's going on in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and war. The book helps us. And Restrepo the film helps us so that we're aware of what these young troops are going through and that when we when we vote or when we talk to friends or neighbors or representatives or whatever. We speak from a position of awareness and care for what's going on there. That would be a big help. It really upsets me to see the degree. To which people are tuned out to the wars overseas.

The trauma that you saw and you observe and the information that you gathered during this period and your own exhaustion from these 24 hour patrols and your own feelings of fear can you talk about the process of writing what you took for supplies how you got the extra reserves to write and remember all these details to make such a book. Of. I was. I mean I'm a journalist. I. I write down everything of relevance that I see here experience or think on assignment. I would just just keep filling up notebooks so thank God I'm not just relying on my memory I was also. So I kept my notebook you know I would write notes as things happened. I would also at the end of the day I would sit on the ammo hooch. Which look north over the corner go towards the past very beautiful spot and I'd sort of keep a basically a very

deep journal. That included my thoughts my it my own emotional reactions to things my questions the things that bothered me like they killed the guy at one point a fighter and they killed a fighter and they sort of cheered that cheer. I mean I understood the need to kill the guy who was shooting at us. The cheere troubled me. I wrote many pages about it and eventually I interviewed interviewed I asked Stiner like what was that about man that didn't look too good. And Stiner explained it to me you know so that's the journalistic process. In addition I was shooting a lot of video Tim and I each had a video camera so that we are there alone sometimes together. We shot video continually. And so I didn't write my book out there. I chronicled the experience out there and I came home and write it wrote it very very quickly in about six months. Last. Summer before last I was a very emotional extremely emotional process for me for the first time in my life. It was like an extremely emotional. Process. Thank you for your book and your film. Thank you. I'm with

20 years in the Navy retired three years ago. I am also a gay man and I came up here someone very reluctantly nerves. I know you're not a politician and you're not. You weren't you didn't write the book and produced the movie. Because you wanted to influence policy. But having lived your experience do you think that there is a valid concern about openly gay men serving next to soldiers and Marines in combat. Is that. A real issue. Are you eating. Right. A great question. Well OK. How could I put it. I don't Restrepo. Everyone kind of became the same. Because. I don't mean in terms of their personalities but in terms of their behavior. Like the situation was so extreme and so hard and everyone depended on each other so much. That

they all became a certain kind of. Soldier person. I think if you'd had a woman out there. She would have become that. Right. You could have a Harvard educated and you know whatever to become that you could have a farm kid from Georgia. He would have become that like I became that except I didn't have a gun. Right. I think if you had a gay man out there he did become that. So the term openly gay I think would cease to be relevant out there. Those sort of like. Social markers that are so important in this society those social identities that are so important in this society. Harvard grad woman game whatever it is they just get obliterated out there out of necessity. Everyone. Is necessary out there. And I asked those guys. I put the question to him because they were all. I mean. They're always joking around about being gay. You know like they were always accusing each other of being gay. You know it just sort of male you know whatever humor

straight male humor you know you know that was part of the part of the humor out there and so I said like. So. If. They joke was like How long would we have to be out here until we actually started doing it with each other like that was kind of the secret of the thought process. Right. You know they didn't see any They didn't see any women for a year you know. And some of the guys were better looking than others and some of those guys were like gay men. You better to point better end quick because you look you know you're starting to look pretty good. You know it is all just brotherly love really. You know it's humor. But I asked them what boy like. Listen bad seriously. If there was a gay guy out here what would it be an issue or not. And and the answer was really interesting is the answer was out here. No we all need each other we know there's you know like we are a lot weirder things going on

out here than someone being gay. You know like that's just the beginning of why did the Spectre move like behavior out here like it's like you know we would have no problem with it on the big bases. They would. It's like at Restrepo you don't really have the pleasure of your prejudices. You can indulge your prejudices. You don't have the luxury not to. But then there was the luxury of your prejudices. On the big bases. You said it would be more of an issue. It would absolutely be an issue. And. In training. Yeah absolutely. Like back in Italy or a boot camp absolutely it would be. Openly like his it his opinion was openly gay and those situations would be problematic. It's it's ironic though the military's rationale for don't ask don't tell is that in situations where everyone where the group bond is so

important you don't want to be threatened by that. The irony is that in its press it's only and precisely in those situations where it would seem to matter. And it's in that we are bases in Italy where it's not life or death. And so these other things become. Unfortunately unfortunately become problematic. Thank you very much. Others include. I go first of all I appreciate your honesty. I know you don't want to get political that's that's the purpose. Can I can I have to interrupt you one second because we're going to wrap it up and there's one woman behind you so we've got time for two very quick questions. Well I'd just leave some thought with you food for thought this five page of The Globe last Saturday about Sergeant Ted Kennedy's speech Friday.

And I just imagine that guy Kennedy wrote about not the at hand had as a country that paraphrasing there is about 60 percent of us represent the population and 94 percent the rest of the world very fast. OK. We can't solve everything. And you don't even have to call back I just want people to look back quote up. And I hope this will be the start of that talk and debate that people will pay attention to what's going on. Thank you. Thank you. I just have an experience in Vietnam. I was there in 71 72 when the troops were being pulled out and the officers who were being killed by the enlisted men defragging some were going on and on. I after you get out of Vietnam I have to thank everybody who protested against the Vietnam War. You saved my life because I only had a 5

month tour or a seven month tour. So thank you very much. And I was just thinking of the soldiers who die lose the war. There's no winning or losing. It's the soldier who dies. And I cannot believe that this country is not protesting this war. We plan on pulling out. The 2011. And I was lucky enough to go over the Soviet Union. I spoke to the Soviet soldiers who fought in the Afghanistan war and they were telling me exactly the story you were saying and I said to myself when the U.S. went into Afghanistan we'll be in and we'll be out we'll learn from the Soviet situation but we haven't learned from the French from Vietnam. We haven't learned from the Soviets in Afghanistan and I have just one more statement to say Smedley Butler said. The war is a racket. The few profit and many pay and we're all paying for it no matter how you look at it.

So I would like to know how this is my last. Well my question is my question very quickly. All right a very quick and then my question is how do you look at the pull out of Afghanistan which the U.S. plans on starting next year. I don't know anything about those plans. My. My worry about staying is that it's not a winnable war. I worry about leaving is that if we pull out it will be way worse than it is now for the Afghan people. So I don't have an answer. Those are my words. I hope one or the other isn't true. But. I you know I can't see the future. I think there's a good and a bad way to proceed if we stay. That's a different conversation. But I don't know what decisions will be made obviously. Thank you so much everyone for coming in today. Thank you. Appreciate it. Today. Former