American Experience; Stonewall Uprising; Interview with John O'Brien, 2 of 4

to find out if they were gay and had them fired. That's why so many married interacted, you know, where you lesbians and gay men would learn to get married to each other, to cover, to cover so they wouldn't be identified as such. We did that with each other. We had to. So, you know, I think that I think the more passionate you are, the better, that's what really punches through, so just let loose, I don't want to. Oh, you have no idea how passionate I can think. I'm being very, I'm being very mellow, trust me. So, maybe, you know, just, just, you have no idea how passionate.

All right. Because that's it. It's me. It's not academic. It's real. You were saying something really interesting before about not, you were alone, but you knew that there were others like you, you saw it, you saw it when you looked around in what the television movie stars are, when you were alone, did you think you were the only gay person? You were just talking about, you know, one example from Wizard of Oz. No. I was lucky. There was a gay person who had the sensitivity to know that there were other gay people. Not every gay person had that during my generation, but I knew that, and I could recognize there were other gay people. And I saw it on television, I saw it in walking, where I went every day, and I anxiously saw it out gay people. So, I mean, I had to think what's called gay-dare, and I could, and, well, I could just, I just knew if somebody was gay. I just knew.

They were gay. I can't explain how I know, but I knew. Where I said, for example, I mean, like you were saying, what about the carolary line? Well, the carolary line of related to the Wizard of Oz, I just, just so much, and ironically Bert Larr wasn't gay, but I related to the character. It was the character that I could relate to. The whole idea of the Emerald City, of going from one place to another and having a better life was, this is wonderful, you know. I mean, I just are very, very much related to that. I related to a lot of people I saw on television that I just knew were, and no matter what they did to say they weren't, I knew they were. Still to this day, there's a lot of people who say they're not who are. Back to the night of the riots, I think a big task that we all have is to try to really understand what happened night by night and know as much detail as possible. So it really put yourself back, and I know you're a good memory, I know you're queer.

What do you remember seeing in terms of who was involved in the, how did the cops react? Sort of a blow by blow, do you want to take a closer look at the first? Well, I can, I can give you my experiences. I mean, basically, when you have these kind of events, it's basically in the eyes of the person who went through that experience and what they remember. And it's been 40 years, but I still remember, very clearly, it was a lot of street people, not the respectable types, who were involved in throwing things at the police and yelling at the police and getting the police scared. The police were never get scared just by people being nice. I mean, this is a very angry crowd built up. It included people who were a social outcast. I don't know if all of them were gay, it could have been some of them weren't even gay.

But they were definitely pissed off and they were angry at the police. And they saw it as an opportunity to lash out in that anger. Some of them had drinking problems on the street, clearly, they hung out in the park, a lot of rough people, my kind of people. What were they throwing and how to practice? Well, cans, beer cans, and rocks, there was things lying around, cobblestones, because the street was then under repair. Seventh Avenue and Christopher Street had these old cobblestones, these big, large, stone bricks, much larger than the standard clay prids. And they just started tossing those things, everything. I mean, I was, I was with a group that we actually took a parking meter out of the ground. It was partially already loose. But if you can imagine taking a parking meter out of the ground, there are three or four people.

And we use it as a battering round on the police. Our goal was to hurt those police. I wanted to kill those cops for the anger I had of me, and the cops got that. And they were lucky that door was closed. They were very lucky, because I was from the streets. What kind of spank does it take to take a parking meter out of the sidewalk with that car? Rage. I have, it's, I don't think normally you could pull a parking meter out of the concrete, even if it was a little bit loose. But there was absolute anger and rage. It was part of the sixties. It was part of the rebellion. It was that night, the right place, at the right time. It was the right place to be. It was the wrong place for the police to be. I want to understand, you know, what a good, blow by blow, who was where, when you say the cops were lucky to be inside, where were you, where were they, and what did you do

at the park? I was across the street. Stonewall is like, was on the, the north side of Christopher Street. And I was on the southern side, which is where Sheridan Square Park is. I was right outside of Sheridan Square Park, right on the, on the pavement there. And that's where the parking meter came from. And most of the people who were against the police were in that park and around that park. So what did you guys do with it? We used it on the door. The police are inside, and we're trying to get to them. How did you know they were inside, what did you do? Because they ran inside. Because you used crowd at this time, there was like, you know, I don't know the numbers, but I'd say there was like, you know, 500 or more people outside, and you know, this was after the police had already done the original, I wasn't there when they did the original rate. I was there after they came and started the response. And so they had run into the bar just as I got there.

And it was lots of anger. The people throwing things at the police. And so when they were shouting themselves in the bar, right before they went into the bar is when I got there. And then after they're running into the bar, the next thing was to get the police. So that's the parking meter. Do you remember how hard you had to do it, like back and forth for the bunch of people? Yeah. Can you tell me exactly? Yeah, ramming the door, you know, and then somebody started a fire. They started with little lighters and matches in the paper around the windows that got broken and starting fires. And that seemed like a better idea. Because the idea is, of course, the cops had guns. So you know, if we broke down the door, they'd probably shoot us. But if you start the fires, you can burn them. And I'll get hurt. So where exactly did you put the whole piece of paper out of what? I didn't put the papers.

I wasn't doing the papers. But other people with the papers, and they put the, they lit the, the paper in what was the windows then to catch fire. And it was caused the fire, which apparently the firemen came too. Yeah. Oh, yes, but it wasn't things I could say on television. You could try. Well, it was four letter words. It's thinking about F, the police, you know, it was, it was lots of anger. It wasn't an articulated thing. It was not a, it wasn't that people had elicit demands that they, you know, they, they rode down. It was just pure anger and abuse by the police, you know, for all that abuse. And it was, and so some of the people in the park, as I say, were probably been harassed by the police many times, you know, get out of the park. Was there attitude about the people who hung out in the park who drank there? And the kids on the street like me was, you know, get off the streets, it's our street. So we had a common shared enemy, which was the authorities, and there they were.

And it was our chance to lash out at them. Because until then, we'd always been the, the other side of it. We've always been the target. For once, we were actually able to make them the target. And it felt really good, and it was really exciting. And as it kept developing, it exhilarated us to do more. Every person we out did what the last thing that people did, that's what I'm saying. So it started with the rocks and the beer cans and then the, probably, and then somebody started fires. I mean, it just kept escalating, you know, and, and then we proceeded beyond the, the Stonewall, you know, over the next few nights, which is not well known of breaking many store windows and bank windows, and going after other businesses that had been cruel and hard to us. I mean, in your heart, how did it feel to just be like you were, like, finally turning on against the cops against any screw, you know?

Well, it wasn't the first time. I mean, I've been in other protests against the police. What was exciting to me, it was a gay thing. It was, it was, which was not my previous experiences. My previous experiences, of course, was being victimized by the police in the civil rights movement and in the peace movement, because I was always out there protesting and therefore I was always a target. But here, on Christopher Street, the actually police ran. Unlike the other places, this is, this is the first time I saw the police run, you know, and in the civil rights movement, we ran from the police. In the peace movement, we ran from the police. The police ran from us and they ran from faggots, from the lowest of low, from the street people, the people who, most of society would, you know, not have a second thought about, you know, eliminating or stamping out. And I was one of those people and I had empowerment. I felt excited, overjoyed, that, first of all, that the police were on the run and I also felt the commonality with other people there.

I mean, I, I saw these gay kids out there fighting against the police. I'd never saw gay people fighting against the police. All I saw previous years was always gay people who were victims, who were, you know, they would never stand up. That's why I never identified as much with the gay community. I mean, that, that, that event changed my identity with my community. I came to be proud of my community and to identify with other gay people. And I wasn't alone. Like, gay and everybody's with the collective voice. Well, that's what happened is in the audience, there was, there were many gay people who were not active like me in fighting the police. But, but you could sense they were with us, you know, there was, there was, the, the large crowded assemble of onlookers was really not pro police. They weren't grabbing us for the police for the most part. They, they mostly were, were fascinated by what we were doing. And many, I believe, liked what we were doing.

There was some who didn't. We were grabbed. There were people. There was a gay bar around the corner that was, and it's still there on Ten Street. And some of the patrons came out and held a couple of the kids running for the police. And that was the mentality at that time. Here are the respectable gays holding these street kids for the police department, for rebelling against the police. What happened into the night that night? Did you stay? Did you remember the rest of the night after the fires? I'm trying to remember the name of the bar. It's on Ten Street. Julius, that's it. Sorry, because it was a plank meant, I couldn't remember that it was Julius, it was the name of the bar. And there were these gay people hung out in the air and they're nice suits, you know, and ties are very respectful types, you know. Did you go back to sleep or to do it? No. First of all, I don't, I didn't go to sleep in those days till four or five, at least in the morning going home, because I lived up in Harlem.

So I didn't leave the village till, you know, till dawn usually, and then I went home in the subway, you know. It was, this was much tourally to go home and it was all very exciting and it went on and on. What happened is the police came out after us and that's where my role came in, which is I had experienced dealing with police and demonstrations and actions and running through the streets and they were running after us. And so, but I knew to go against the traffic. These cops were all in their forties and fifties and fat. This was a time when the police department was not lean and trim like today. And these cops would not run after somebody more than 15 feet, they didn't have the energy to. And we were all young people for the most part. And so we knew we could outrun them, you know, and that's what we did. We kept them running all night long, up and down the streets, driving them crazy and for the next few nights until they had enough of it.

I'm a little confused about what you mean by your strategy with running against the traffic. Well, Chris Restreet went, traffic went from East West. So it's a very narrow street. So if you are running towards the traffic, you can prevent the police from chasing them in the cars. The police had to get out of their cars to run after us. And those fat police didn't want to go 10 or 15 more feet and run after us, especially downside alleys where their courage tended to evaporate. They were all of a sudden, they faced something they had never seen before, which was angry gay people fighting back. They were very freaked out about it. Their manhood was challenged. It's hard to totally describe, but, you know, up to now, police officers, all they had to do was brutalize gay people. It was very easy, but here were gay people fighting back, and they did not know how to deal with that, because they really had people fight against them.

You know, they usually grab somebody, hold them for a rest, hold them down, subdue them and take them in. And that was their experience with most people. But fighting back was unusual. You know, it was very unusual, and perhaps gay people do it was very alarming. I mean, it must have been terrifying for them. I hope it was. It gives back a little the terror they gave in my life. They were the principal enemy I had as a young person growing up, because I could not meet gay people without the police being there to break up my chances to meet people. In the few cruising areas we had in the parks, along the piers, along the rivers. You know, that's the only place we had to meet. It's weird, because people came from all over the country thinking that New York was, you know, the gay mecca, right? But yes, if you were, could afford it, and you were going to theaters, if you can go to the tonight clubs, you can go to the Oak Room on 59th Street. There were well off gay people who hung out at the Oak Room on 59th Street, even though

it was not supposed to be known as a gay hangout, okay? But that was not my world. My world was, I could never get into the Oak Room, and for all the people like me, we only had the river edges and the parks. Were you afraid of traffic? Sure. I ran away from the police many times. They were always out chasing us. Every time I was in a truck, the police would raid it. Every time along the rivers, they would raid it. They would raid along the rambles. They were always there. Whenever you see the cops, you run away from them. Absolutely. And many people who were not lucky felt the cops. They got hit by the cops. Nightsticks were as a regular use by the police. Police enjoyed hitting homosexuals. And they wouldn't get in trouble for it? Not at all. Who would, why would they get in trouble? It's not against the law to hurt homosexuals.

Homosexuality was illegal. Coming together, it was illegal for homosexuals to congregate. It was against the law for homosexuals to congregate. So, therefore, they were breaking the law by just congregating. It was illegal to have gay sex. So, whatever the police did to stop that was justified. There was nobody that I know of ever. And if you look through the history, you won't find people who are pressing charges police assaulting them and being convicted. No legal group ever brought charges against the police department for what it was doing. Were you aware of any crackdowns by the mayor and Mayor Lindsey? I certainly am. I worked in your own. Well, my association with Mayor Lindsey goes back to 1965 when I used to be on his staff for his campaign. I worked as a volunteer in Lindsey's Raiders. And remarkably, that was when I was still a liberal.

This before I became a radical. And so, in 1969, when Mayor Lindsey was then raiding the gay bars, it was kind of ironic. Because four years earlier, I was supporting his election campaign. Can you just tell me what was his deal? What was he, what campaign did Mayor Lindsey do? What was, and can you mention his name? Well, Mayor John Lindsey was like most mayors and most elected officials nationwide wanted to get reelected. So, it was very popular to go against the forces of decay and perverts. So, he supported the closing down of gay bars in the village and elsewhere as part of a re-election campaign to show he was in the law and order and for morality. And of course, homosexuals were very much immoral and targets. Do you think that, I mean, did that happen in 1969?

And in particular, was there a crackdown? Yeah, it was because of the election. It was the real, the police escalated their crackdown on bars because of the re-election campaign. So, before Stonewall, the week before, they had just raided and closed down the checkerboard, which was a much more popular gay bar than the Stonewall. It was that reaction. They were closing down any gay area of socializing because the message was basically gay sex is bad and you deserve what you get. So, what exactly, what time, what year were you talking about when was the election that you was in? The election was in November of 1969 and this was the summer of 1969. This was June and it was part of the, they just saw it as another typical barrage. They did it every four years for elections. It's nothing new that bar raids were going on against gays going back decades.

How about Koch, you know what I mean by that? Edward Koch became mayor in 1973. Okay, he was behind, he was in the 60s, actually. He was Congressman. He followed John Lindsay. John Lindsay was Congressman from the 17th congressional district and it just policies towards gays or people. You don't know. I don't want to speak on it. Okay. If you understand what I told you before, there's a code. And I follow the code to the most part. So Ed Koch is, did nothing himself to oppose the police brutality against gays? You talked about being in the middle of this riot, right? Pulling the parking meter. That's a lot of rage, but you said it also felt good. What was that feeling about?

It was a feeling of fighting back. It was a feeling of fighting back. It was a feeling of fighting back. At your enemy, being successful at it, your enemy was felt fearful. That was a tremendous feeling to have for the first time in my life that I had a police officer fearful of me because I was gay and fighting and resisting. It's hard to describe and total words the whole sensation except I was part of a whole group of people doing this. And I wasn't alone. So I, not being alone, which was part of the oppression that gays have had, being with a group of people and working and resisting together, created a huge matter of empowerment and joy and pride in myself and in others. Remember, you felt the next day the day I was the first night?

I was so excited by what we did that night. I couldn't wait to get down the next day down to Christopher Street. And I wasn't alone. And not only to talk about what happened, but to see what was going to happen. I mean, I had no idea what the first time was going to be like the second night or any of those nights. It was just a matter of responding to the police. Basically, the second night, the same thing. We just basically came down to what we saw as our only street, Christopher Street. They had the rest of the city. All we wanted was one street, Christopher Street. And the police wouldn't let us have that one street. And they came the next night and out of engines, again, started pushing and shoving people and say, you can't stand here. You can't be out here. You keep walking. You don't live here. You're not supposed to be here. And those were our street. That was so we gathered on corners. They chased us away.

We grew in numbers. And we started a second night, which was basically throwing things at the police again and having them run after us. And it continued the resistance of the previous night. It wasn't at the same level, but it was again objecting to their, saying it was their street and they are controlling that street. We said that was our street. Do you remember any details that made it different from the first night? Well, the difference was it continued. Nobody knew the first night that it was only going to be one night and not more. Everybody just assumed, you know, what happened was quite shocking and surprising. And usually that would be it. The energy would be over and there'd be no more. But the police were so upset they came out and they wanted to get, I guess, the taste of revenge. And it backed by it again, because instead of there having control of Christopher Street and just chasing all those perverts off the street,

those young kids had no place else to go and they said that's our street, which is true. We had no place else to go. I mean, I came from Harlem to go to Christopher Street. I didn't have any of the street, you know. The only place I knew in Harlem was 125th Street and Lennox Avenue on a Friday night where there was a little cruising area. But basically, very few places. But Christopher Street was where I could actually sit out there and talk to friends and hang out. I was a young person. I wanted to hang out and talk to friends. Well, you also, I mean, I don't know, let's see. In terms of coming back and continuing the rides, I mean, did you have any feeling that history was beginning to be made? You were setting a course in a new direction for many people. I did not see the Stonewall Rebellion as part of history. I had no idea of how important and what it would lead to. I just saw it as a rebellion. It's an act of rebellion, an anger of my part

and other people's part in fighting and showing rage against the police department for its discrimination and its horrors that it was doing to people like me. I didn't think the second night or the third night or any other night was going to amount to anything, except I was so excited about it and kept taking part at night after night. And only when the police finally used a lot of force and violence on us, did it stop our immediate resistance? But it never stopped. We came back and we took Christopher Street over. We didn't go away. It became our street. And after a while, the police stopped going down and their police cars. There was a long period of time. I think for like several years, where very few police officers would go down that street, certainly not in foot and rarely in a police car. And this is just two streets away from their station. The police station was over, I think, on 10th street or something.

It was very close, Charles Street. And so it was very close. But they actually made a conscious decision to stay off that street because they knew their presence alone would create turmoil by people like me. We made it very clear. That was our street. Leave us alone. Now, I've heard some sort of people getting hit with gloves and getting dragged and getting thrown in the car. Were you willing to risk that? Yes. Yes. But people were brutalized more than... It wasn't just getting thrown in the baddie wagon. And it was beaten up. But I mean, the police would take thrills and joy at blood being spilled. You know, they went for the head wounds. It wasn't just the back wounds and the leg wounds. I mean, the police had a double policy. One, if they didn't want to leave evidence of hurting, they knew where to hit people, where they wouldn't be so much being shown. So facial hits more, you had more blood, you know, rather than body hits. But they were angry. They were very angry.

I think they were angry because one, they were living in the 60s, the same as I was. They were going through the same experiences. They weren't happy with the 60s, because they were, in fact, mostly on the other side. They were opposed to change. They were opposed to people challenging authority. So they did not like for the most part what they saw in the civil rights movement and the peace movement, et cetera. Which is what I love to see. And when the gaze came along and started doing it, I think it was just too upsetting and too much for them. I mean, their whole manhood was then, you know, endowed in question. And they just didn't know what would be next. I mean, if the queries are doing it today, who knows what tomorrow is going to be doing. So it was just a very shocking thing to see gay people fighting the police. It was unheard of. But would you said helps man to imagine from their point of view why they would want to be forceful back? Yeah, they needed to show that they were still in control. The whole issue of power was very important to them. So they came out with force.

They brought it. But the police, they did, they felt the power slipping. Yeah, and there's two types of police. You had the police who were assigned to the local police station, the Greenwich Village Police Station, and then you had a group that was called the Tactical Patrol Force, which was their elite squad that they used for demonstrations and breaking up disturbances, which I was very familiar with. Having dealt with the Tactical Patrol Force previously and other events, I was in the Harlem Rebellion in 1963, because this was where I lived. And even during that time, where we were throwing things, more apartments down at the police and stuff, the fear and the look of astonishment by a police was not there. This was the first time I could actually sense, not only see them fearful, I could sense them fearful. They did not know how to deal with homosexuals. They had a thing of that homosexuals

where you could derive them, etc. But they did not know how to fight back against the gay person who was fighting them, because they had no concept of how to do that. It didn't register with them. It was like something that they never trained on. You know, a creature that they had seen as a creature only as something to beat up and deride was now a threat to them. Gay people were never supposed to be threats to police officers. They were supposed to be weak men, limperasted, not able to do anything. And here they were lifting things up and fighting them and attacking them and beating them. You know, cops got hurt. And every one of those cops was quite shocked that they were being hurt by a homosexual. And it was fantastic.