American Experience; Stonewall Uprising; Interview with Martin Boyce, 2 of 4

Oh, sorry, yeah, you're showing? Yeah, as time went on in the 60s, what was the feeling down there and how they affected? Oh, to be in the village was to be free. And you could act free. And there wasn't necessarily somebody behind you that was going to hit you over the head. Because you're sometimes going there, you would see if it was like two straight boys, one coming back, I remember, with ice skates. And he saw me, and he handed the ice skate one skate to the other guy, so they could both pummel me. But once you're in scared, drag, you look. I could see, even today, I can see down a block to see if anybody's coming and how they walk. You knew what trouble was generally. So did people come when you said people came from all over in support of your audience before they come from? Where did they escape and why are they coming from? Well, they were coming from small towns. They were coming from New Jersey, like John Mussolani and Schmidt, or they were coming from the West. But they were all spirited.

Or some of them, if they weren't, they were just so happy to be here. You could tell that they were just like refugees. And they had found a home right away. Even sometimes they didn't find a home yet. Somehow spiritually they had found a home. I mean, New York was for them, and they should be here. And they were. And it was great. And those people enriched my life, because I was always sort of jealous, because they always had a place to go to. This was my hometown. You know, I never could talk about my hometown, the way they talked about their hometown. I had no story to tell. This was it. Right. So they came. Typical bar and night. What was it you ever been before you get even to the raid? What about the normal raid? What if we're in a bar when you're in a room? Yes. Can you say what that's like from beginning here? You're in there, dark, or you've described it? I remember being, I think, in a place called the sewer. And it was, I think, if I remember, like black and white predominated in tones around us, the coloring, and the way it was decorated. And it was a small dance floor that was very well-lit.

And everybody was talking, and all of a sudden there was tremendous commotion in one part of the bar. And then we're spread so quickly that it was a raid. And immediately you started to look how do I get out. That time, I saw the bartenders leave, as the crowd was in front of me. And I said, what am I going to do? And I figured they knew how to get out. I followed them, and I got out. But for instance, I think that crises was captured, and they shaved Christy's hair off. What was the point? What were the cops after? What happened? Either someone didn't pay, either there was pressure from, I guess, churches or things to stop this or neighborhood pressure, because these were always residential neighborhoods. And there was a lot of loudness at the end of the night closing, the way it is today, so you can try to back up people complaining about these clubs. It was that similar to that. Only we were all degenerates to them. Did you typically do the bar shut down forever?

Did it open up forever? No, they usually were gone once they were. Occasionally, they would open up. Then it was never the same. So it didn't matter. They were closed. When you were raided, you were finished, basically, as a bar. Stonewall. So, oh, what about the dancing in Stonewall? What did you do to differ from mother to Stonewall and dance? Yeah, it was difficult. It was a synthesism that you could dance. I mean, it was like the expression now I do it because I can or I could. And there it was. I mean, everybody was just dancing with another man in a group of men shielded from the world. There was one time in the movie, Lead Belly. Lead Belly was talking about that he was having this party in this area of Alabama. And he said, we had a great time. The person who said, did you have a great time? He said, yes, he said, because it wasn't a white person within five miles of us. They could be themselves. And for us, Stonewall was that. So Kate, so talk about that feeling, and it's emotional,

but what does it feel like you're out in the world coping with all of them? Well, the normal things kick in. The normal things of someone like you, and you can respond. And you don't have to keep your eye open. It's like someone looking at you. Is there a group of boys coming? Is there a cop there? Is there someone complaining? You were free in that bar. Everybody around you was the same. And you could actually operate as a human being, as a loving person, as a needful person, or a person wanting to have sex, or wanting to communicate or where I need to get together. But it's in the street, it was a bit difficult, because you never knew who was watching. As in this recent attack on that guy from Ecuador, so they were holding him. I don't think they were even gay. I don't know, I'm sure, but they were beaten. That's what could happen. I remember one time, these two men grabbed me. I had my peekaboo and my fork out, and they were out of jail or something.

And they were going to drag me down these steps. And I was fighting with them. And my hair was going back and forth. And a group of boys said, look, they got that girl. And they jumped out and saved me. But foolish me, wanted to thank them. Instead of running, and I knew I should have ran. And I said, I want to thank you, gentlemen, forget it. They say, you fat, they chased me. They got the car, they tried to find me to kill me. And another incident with Miss Masha, one day I went down to the village, there was nobody at the trucks. Nobody was very strange. And underneath the truck, I hear, oh, girl, oh, girl. You better get out of here, girl. Do you value your life? Get out of here, girl. Please, girl, go. I said, Miss Masha, what are you doing under that car in the dress? She said, they hit, girl. They hit, and then I saw them. They were turning in the car. They had their hair shaved. And these, like they called guinea cheese at the time showing. And they saw me, and they clicked in.

But they couldn't stop right there. And then they wanted to make prepare so they were coming around. By mercy, this truck driver held me from across the street. And I didn't care what he looked like. I went up there and was on him like a hungry hen. I just went there, and he saved me. And then I told him afterwards, he was a very nice guy. And what was happening, he took me to 14th Street to get the bus with the truck. It's a little bit from your story, like you, like escaped. Oh, it's good. I mean, that you lived through all of this was kind of a mirror for you within a minute. Oh, yes. Yes, it was like, who do you like, some of these escapes? And some of the situations that you had to get out of, or the humiliation was terrible. One time, and this would just relate to the village, but it's outside the village, I may say. Well, the only thing is I'm not sure that we're going to have time for stories, a lot of stories. Oh, no, this is just one. No, it illustrates what could happen. I was at the other's Dunkin' Scoff, my clutch, and it was summer, and I had a pink top on. I was with Bertie, who was in the riots also.

And we were going down to those. But we would go to the museum. And we would go into the Metropolitan Museum. And the police, after a parade, were taking down the horses, the wooden horses. And one of them said to me, oh, and I said, I didn't know it could be in the police force, it'd be like that, how wonderful. And I put, I bent and put my purse to my lips. As I kept walking, as I got closer to the mat, and in front of the mat, all of a sudden there was a tightening of my Isardor Dunkin' Scoff. And I was thrown on a car, it was that cop, in plain clothes, they followed me. And twisted that club, it was blue as a smurf. With the entire group of people going to the museum, virtually on his side, that he was doing something for the public. And they were shocked to see us later into the museum. As if we were breaking all bounds. So this is how bad it could be. When you had museum goers, educated people, just thinking we had to be wrong or the cop wouldn't be doing this to me, not turning me blue. And that's just an example, on the way to the village, what could happen.

Because you had to get there, to be free. Good point. Okay, did you remember slow dance? Because I thought that was something that was particular to the storm on you. Oh yes. Can you talk about that with your own words after the storm? Oh yes, slow dancing, if you like somebody, and you were lucky enough to have somebody who liked was just being enveloped. It had a wonderful, wonderful dream. And to have this great music was all that Motown stuff. And it would be like a slow Martha Reeves or something. And just to hold, just to feel the warmth, it feels somebody's heart in this music that you admired and loved that helped for you. And did that make you feel particular to about that bar? Was it? Oh yes, because that's where it would happen. And your own words, I'm not gonna be heard. So where was this? This was in Stonewall. Stonewall was the bar where you could really slow dance. Of course, if you had a boyfriend, if you had someone you wanted to dance with, you weren't gonna do it with your sister, another queen. But if you were lucky enough to find someone

and they were brought someone with you, you could actually slow dance. But usually you found someone there if it happened and when it happened, it was more rare than, it wasn't every night of currents. Were you aware of the mafia? Yes. Or can you talk about that? Is your feelings about who ran Stonewall? Mafia. Can you say that in the full sentence of what you thought about it? Yes, the mafia ran Stonewall, but I didn't feel very much about it because being a New Yorker, they ran a lot of things and I knew they ran things that you couldn't get anywhere else. I mean, I knew that in the prohibition, it was they who was like providing a lot of liquor, but they were providing the things we needed. So I didn't, they never were mean to me. They were always rough. I sort of knew who it was that person may be mafia and don't mess with them. That's all, don't be sassy. How about drinks? They weren't very good. Can you talk about what did you drink? Oh, because I didn't really drink. I was having like slow gin fizz, I think it was. It was those sweet drinks because you couldn't drink it too

quickly. You know, we didn't have that much money. So slow gin fizz, I could drink very slowly because it was so sweet. And a beer I would drink too quickly. So I would get something I didn't like but could tolerate. So I could hold it for a long, long time. And I couldn't be, you know, saying like, you have to order another drink or something like that. That was my drink. But drink was just an excuse to be there, to be with people. And to listen to that great jukebox. And what happened, you mentioned a book before in 1969. What's the gist? How did, what was the emotional importance of that book? And what had it shift your feeling about it? Well, it was, I think published in 1964. I think it was in 1963. It was still a seller, though, by 1969. And what it was, was he was telling you where to go in each city if you were gay and was developing these incredible characters, which were the very people I was hanging out with. And for me, the book just was backing me up to what I was doing.

But for other people, it opened up a new way. They knew where to go. Was there anything else about that year? I mean, we're leading up to the riots. Any other sort of social forces you think might have, might have bought an e-free. Yes, I mean, the civil rights movement, the woman's movement. I always admire blacks because they broke cultural laws and lived. And they were cool and hip. And Puerto Ricans, because they were socially accepting of gays. They didn't mind you at the table. Even the men were not shy to talk to you. This, all these different multi-ethnic groups, all these different prisms of culture, was pushing all of us. Because a lot of us, as a young queen, I stuffed envelopes to NAACP. We all had done something a lot of us. Even though we were scared, we weren't always that way. And so there were times when I could be accepted by a group. And we all knew freedom was in the air. So where were you? Friday, June 23rd. Where?

26th? 26th? 23rd, no? 26th, 27th, 28th. Oh, 26th, OK. I was just thinking about the 23rd. What did you find out when you said it? Just say we have nine. What was it? Morning of the 28th. OK. So the way it was Friday night, can you just grab that day and wear your head? The Stonewall night. Yeah. And even the day, what was it with that? Well, the day I was preparing for Friday night, I got back out, fit together. I had cold birdie. And we were going to meet in Christopher Street. Tommy knew what we were going to be there. And so we just was a regular night. It was a night where we decided we're just going to go out. And we're going to meet on Christopher Street and then decide what we're going to do. However, that was also, I think, very close to the time where Judy Golland died. And her funeral was a lot of those scared red queens. And a lot of people were there. So there was some sorrow in the air.

But still, it was Friday night when we were young. That sorrow was somewhere, but not up front. And I decided to go down and met birdie on the train. Then we saw Tommy and we were on a stoop on Christopher Street. And it was evening, so I continued to eat. And there were a lot of people outside Stonewall. You could see down, Christopher, the first section of Christopher, before the park, before it opens up. And we saw a lot of people there. But there would be a lot of people there who would say, well, what are we going to do? And like, John was thinking, what are we going to do? And we're going to go somewhere else. And there was a commotion. And we could not ignore the commotion any longer. So we said, well, what's happening over there? And we decided to go take a look. And then there was news that there was a raid. I said, well, we better. Somehow, we just knew we better. Let's go. And we went. And when I got there, the paddy wagon was already there. And I saw this policeman up on the paddy wagon and this heel come out of high heel

and push him back. And he fell. And all of a sudden, pandemonium broke loose. It was, everything was going crazy. Somehow, and it was strangely, like a kaleidoscope, but frenetic and changing all the time. There was this pulse in the air. And things were starting to happen quickly. The police were pushed back into the bar. They closed the door. And I just couldn't believe what I was watching. And I saw Mr. New Orleans who was rather frail. All of a sudden, take out a meter from the street. I couldn't believe it. It was like the kind of superhuman effort that mad people have. And they used that as a battering ram to try to break down the door of Stonewall. But you could see the police in those little speakeasy holes. You could see their eyes. And they was growing along. You could see. And then they set it afire. And as the smoke started building up on the door, they really were frightened.

And they couldn't understand. They were trying to laugh about this, because it was, and then more police came. And it didn't stop. And windows were starting to break. And cabs were being tossed and tussled. And a bus had to stop. And the driver was a very butch man who was like, going to show he was not afraid of these people. And nobody was getting hurt, but it was frightening. And as things kept switching in this madness, there was a law, a strange law. And like, it seemed to me that couldn't be a law. Everybody thought that. And I remember moving into the open space and grabbing onto my friends and we started singing and doing a kick line. And we were singing, we are the village girls. We wear our hair and girls. We wear our dungaries above our nailing knees. This was in front of the police. I never got to finish this song, because they infiltrated behind us and then they hit me in the back with a stick. And I fled somewhere where they weren't near,

because there were so many targets. And there were so many people that realized we have to get their attention. We have to get back at them. We have to do something. Each individual person created a new scene, a new counterpoint. And the police were really split. They didn't have an organized way of dealing with us. And first of all, they couldn't believe it was happening. And then the provocations, like that kick line, was very important. Bertie had grabbed a whole bunch of oranges that he found outside of a bar and started, found a car that was going through and then started rubbing them all over the windshield. Unfortunately, the guy was gay and tough. And Bertie had to run from that. It was a big mistake. But the right was going on. There were stakes being made. There were windows being broken. They were strange people that were bystanders that decided to join. They were these true black, like, banji guys. And they were very rough. And they were saying, well, what's going on, man? And then someone said, it's still there still fighting?

The police, let's go. And they went in. And there was the spirit. But the strange thing was, on the side, all of a sudden, you were pushed to the side. Just gay people, normal gay people were in sweaters, or college student gay people type. Which shot out something terrible. And all of a sudden, they were grabbed because it was a plain clothesman behind it. It was amazing how infiltrated. I guess I don't know what their job was going to be that night. But the entire group was infiltrated. And people were being taken away. And all this was happening as you're trying to focus. But it was almost not knowing why we're doing this, but we had to do this. I was not the kind of person to provoke the police. And that kick line really scared me. But it had to do something. I had to sing. I had to shout to something. What did you feel like that? And how, and what did you feel like to do the kick line? I mean, did you feel comfortable with the kicking line? How did you? Oh, it was wonderful. Because I went out like this. And the two queens came right in, and then we started kicking. And we said, and in front of the police,

knowing that they would hate us. And we were some of the loudest, some of the most annoying of us. And we knew how annoying we could be. And the kicking and the singing and the police didn't wait us to finish the song. That made them mad. And people sensed that and started getting the loudest queens would get into a tussle with the cops. Because the cops did one. This was the target. If it was to hit anybody, it wasn't the normal ones. It was this type, this criminal type. What were you challenging for? What was in their face, would you remember the cops at all? At one point, we were hate. Like, we were scum. And this had to be stopped. At first, it was, this is interesting. And then it was like, oh, it was the only going to go to far, but then it got to the point where it went too far, and we were scum. And we're going to be shown what happens to scum. It became no lip. There was as much hatred as like the Chicago thing, at the time, the election of 16, and all of that. There was that hatred of putting people under control

that was their job. And this was protecting their wives and children. Coins? Coins, they tossed? Well, everywhere things were going. Bricks, do you want to do a little bit more? Yes, they would brick. But not so many bricks. There were a lot of oranges and things that coins, things from shop windows that were taken out of the windows and thrown at, please, things like that. There was a whole bunch of things going on as if someone was juggling or doing those games that the people do. It was amazingly confusing. Miss Norris, what was her role in it? Other people joining with the car? Oh, yes. Oh, Miss Norris, she wouldn't be stopped. And she was quite crazy. And when she grabbed that, everybody knew she couldn't do it alone. So all the other queens, cargo women and queens like that started, and they were hitting that door. I mean, they were making some headway. It was almost like the middle ages. It was like really, really strange. But it was great. And there were such heroes.

It was those loudest people, the most vulnerable, the most likely to be arrested were the ones that were doing the real fighting. They were the stormtroopers. And they were the cannon fodder, too. Those were the ones that were mostly injured. But they were wonderful. They were wonderful to see. And now, even my memory, I still will never get Miss Orleans. Skinny, poorly dressed, acne, insane looking, stuttering, a hero. Why did she get it? She had had enough. She wasn't pretty. She was poor. And she was tormented. She was one of the ones that stayed out too long on the street and had no place to go. It was arrested. It was pit. She needed. That was our only block. That was our world, that block. There's where we could be free. There's where we met. There's where we planned. There's where we interacted. Many of these people were artists and all sorts of things. Ideas were flowing across the street, like Thomas Lannock and Schmidt. And so many other people were all creative.

So what was being taken on? What was being threatened? What was being threatened was our ability to congregate or ability to exchange ideas. We had no computers. Our ability to not just to have a friend to talk to, but to have someone that you didn't know and talk to and become friends or find a plateau on which you could both discuss, because there was something similar that was happening to both of us. Did you yourself feel, OK, let me go back to the Mayan and the total panemonium? Did you, how did you feel, scared, cool? I wasn't frightened. And I was a person that was very cautious. I could be easily frightened and very paranoid. I was very paranoid of running into boys that were going to beat me up. I did everything I could, but I was not frightened that night. And that was amazing, because I had a purpose. And all my life, all my having to study how to not be attacked, making sure that my parents never found out I was gay until the point where my father could accept it. All the slurs, all the deceit, it was all there.

It was like something there it was, there it was to fight. There became an embodiment, there they were, the police. They were the enforcers. So Amy was a mix of sadness and distress and a need to express it as a nonviolent person. I came very close to being violent. And I was glad for those that were violent. I would not have put them down. As before, I would have probably said, I don't know, we shouldn't choose violence. I believed in Gandhi, but it doesn't always work. I found out. You know, when it was all over, and I remember sitting, there was a sun was soon to come. And I was sitting on the stoop, and I was exhausted. And I looked at that street with the broken glass and the broken windows and the debris, and all sorts of things that people had fallen or things that were around.

I really thought that we did it, but we're going to pay dearly for this. And it was so great, like every so often in your life, maybe once in a while you should be wrong. And this was the time I was wrong. But like three hours before I was right, and I satisfied with that. We'll talk about that one. It confused a little bit about the police being dragged. Did you know who was inside the bar? And was it shut down and boarded up? Who was suddenly the cops? Did you understand where they were and what was going on? Yes, I understood that by the time I got there, the cops had already raided. They were already taking those queens out. Now, the queens that would take it out basically was those drag queens. And they decided to fight back. So who had somebody trapped in the bar? What were they trying to do? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Once the police came in, because I was in the second raid. Once the police came in, they had you. There's no way to really get out. And there were people already. Some people, I guess, in the bar. They were, they were tip-offs and something was gone.

But they got us. They knew how to do it. When you say they had you, I'm confused. The cops were, they had to. What do you mean, I'm sorry? Well, because they were going to entrap the group. They came in, I was watching. They came in from the front. They knew how to grab all the people. Some people will let go. The drag queens were not. I don't know exactly what their purpose was or how they decided to choose these people. But it was the drag queens that really made the problem. Because when I got there, they were in the paddy wagon. I told you that the hill. But did you get the sense that the doors were consciously locked in the bar? No. No. Because they opened them to get back in there when they were being pushed back by Miss Norleens and that whole group. I mean, Miss Norleens and all the people around started marching step by step closer. I don't think it would have happened as badly except the police started moving back. That's what gave oxygen to the fire. Because as the police moved back, we were conscious all of us of the area we were controlling.

And now we were in control of the area. Because we surrounded the bar. We were moving in. They were moving back. They were laughing. They were becoming more alarmed. The heightening alarm. They went in. They closed the door. They looked through the things. They were on their phones. And that's where Miss Norleens was pounding the door. And those groups and someone said, on fire, one of those queens. And what kind of fire were we talking about? It was smoke coming up. And the police knowing it was on fire. It was sort of like, you know, there were old doors. So it was like almost dramatic as if a church door was on fire or something. It was like, those doors that people always want, that close, very strongly, you could look through the people. But in that, that was when other cops came. Playing clothesmen's came. They mixed with the group. They were behind us to the side of us. They cut in. But they couldn't corral us. There were so many pockets. And that's why I was able to do that dance. And we were egging them on.

Now we knew we could get them in certain places. We had to do something. It kind of went into the night. I guess, yeah, you talked about the next morning. How did it look like in terms of, was it trashy, horrible, trashy, beautiful? It was trashy, beautiful. I'm sorry. When you say that next morning or in the morning, by what time of the morning would you say that? About 4'30, about 5'30, just before the sun came. But it was dark enough to allow the street lamps to pick up the glitter of all the broken glass and all the debris and all the different colored cloth that was in different places. Is it even all this that arranged it? It was beautiful. It was like mica. It was like the streets we fought on was strewn with diamonds. It was like a reward. I mean, we did a riot, and we didn't kill anybody, and we made a point. It was great. So, really, you remember seeing you?

No, why not? I did, yes. I just loved it. I remember looking at it. Just thinking, how beautiful. And of course, it was like, it was like, the money of Thomas Lennick and Schmidt's art, which is very basic, his art was very glittery. That next day, did you, what did you think? You think it was over? You think it was going to continue to do it? And you're feeling did you? Oh, I thought we were going to get punished dearly for this. Can you say the day after the first riot? The day after the first riot, I did feel we were going to be punished. Until I got home and got up. People in the neighborhood, the most unlikely people, were starting to support it. My father said, charm you fags, rioted. I was shockingly dead, said that. And people on the street would say, like, well, they'd always pick on them. Some people condemned it. And some people say, well, it can't be easy. You know, they're always there after them. Everybody knew. But so many people from different walks of life, it was split as to, so many people,

not just supported, but understood it. And it was interesting New York to have a gay riot. Everything but a gay riot. And now we did have that too. And so that night? That night, yeah. Well, hey, did you go back? Did I go back just normal? Oh, yes, I went back. Oh, well, yes. Within a few days, I was back. And all we talked about was the riot. But my conscience, I mean, not my conscience, but my fears were ease. I didn't think anything was... I just thought, oh, wow, you know, here were my friends. We did it. We hold on to each other and we grab each other. And say all the campy things are supposed to say. Like, you know, only thing I didn't know you was such a fighter. Oh, girl, you were good. I know you don't have any muscles, but you could throw so beautiful. And people were just wonderful. If there was a sort of a celebratory... Yep. And any feel to that when you went back was it was a different from the first night in terms of numbers of people. It was less people.

People were cautious. I mean, they were cautious about coming down. They didn't want to get arrested. And then all the people had regular jobs. Couldn't be arrested. They were going to be in trouble. Some of them did that night. Did you see leaflets? Were there any... Because they passed out leaflets? Yes, there was literature already. There were things. People... Were mobilizing it? Yes, they were already mobilizing. I mean, already you could feel in the air. Something was changing. I did get a leaflet. You're right. I mean... And I looked at it and I remember, well... Well, now there was unity before in some ways. What about the magicians? Did you feel like they're in the system? Well, you know, the magicians I was proud of that we had any organization. But they... I went to one of their meetings because they didn't like it. I was in Larry Loud. I was the type of person that they were trying to get away from. We're not all like this. I remember even there were two gay people that held the screen... A Shkaidra Queen. We didn't know very well. I think it was Ms. Boston. And she was held and given to the police... And they said to the police, Look, we're not all like this.

So you think... So there are a bunch of guys... Look. Okay. Okay, I'll do that.