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From WGBH in Boston this is the Emily Rooney show. It's Monday October 24th 2011 and Emily Rooney. News of Moammar Gadhafi's death Times declared victory for a new American approach to war. Andrew says that creates the false sense that decisions made in Washington make the world go around. He joins us in our Monday political we look at the issue of class warfare in the U.S. Senate race here in Massachusetts. And finally what are the odds that the last time you ordered fresh Atlantic cod at a restaurant the fish was actually caught or caught in the Atlantic. A new investigation by The Boston Globe exposes rampant mislabeling of seafood here in the Bay State. It's all coming up this hour on the Emily Rooney show. But first. The news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh. Emergency

workers in a frantic search for earthquake survivors in southeastern Turkey are spending this day chipping away at chunks of collapsed buildings. They're going to have a painstakingly slow process that rescuers in Arijit hope will lead them to more survivors. Earlier five people reportedly were pulled from the rubble of yesterday's 7.2 magnitude quake that killed at least 270 people and wounded more than a thousand in the mainly Kurdish region. A crisis of a different kind has European nations fighting for their financials survival after a weekend summit in Brussels the European Union seems no closer to ending its turmoil. Larry Miller reports tensions are running high especially between the leaders of Britain and France. The 10. In EU countries outside the Euro Zone insists they too are deeply affected by what's decided and demand to have a say. Britain's David Cameron. This crisis means greater fiscal and economic integration in the euro zone is

inevitable. But this must not be at the expense of Britain's national interest. We must safeguard the interests of countries that want to stay outside the euro. France's Nicolas Sarkozy's quoted response to Cameron. We are sick of you criticizing us and telling us what to do. For NPR News I'm Larry Miller in London. The Iraqi parliament speaker warns his country could become more vulnerable to neighboring nations when U.S. troops withdraw at year's end speaker Osama he did not specifically mention Iran but Iraq's Sunni's have long worried about Iran's influence on the Shiite majority government. NATO's officials in Afghanistan say they have killed at least 200 insurgents during recent operations in the eastern part of the country. NPR's Quil Lawrence reports at least for NATO's soldiers were killed in action during the past three days. The naval personnel were killed by insurgent attacks and improvised bombs in the east and south. NATO does not release nationalities or names of casualties. Military officials said two major

operations in eastern Afghanistan have concluded inflicting heavy casualties on suspected Taliban fighters. One mission targeted the Haqqani group which is believed to also keep bases inside Pakistan with some government support. The Haqqani are blamed for several recent attacks on the Afghan capital. The other operation focused on mountainous Kunar province in the northeast where groups linked to al-Qaida also launch cross-border attacks from safe havens in the Pakistani tribal areas. Quil Lawrence NPR News Kabul. At last check on Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average was up 93 points at eleven thousand nine hundred two or up more than half a percent. The Nasdaq composite index gaining two percent up 55 points to 2006 93. S&P 500 up more than 1 percent of twelve fifty two. This is NPR News. President Obama today plan to announce new rules designed to help at risk homeowners to refinance their homes that may have little or no equity. The program cuts refinancing

costs and forgoes caps on homeowners in danger of foreclosing. The new rules would cover homeowners who have federally guaranteed mortgages and are current on their monthly payments. Wiki Leaks is not likely to leak anything anytime soon at least not until it locates more cash today the site they gained worldwide notoriety for publishing mounds of classified documents and embarrassing a few governments in the process says it has to stop publishing to focus on finding new sources of funding. Lisa MasterCard another major financial companies cut ties with Wiki leaks after the site came under heavy scrutiny. NPR's Michele Norris will temporarily step aside as host of its signature evening news program All Things Considered as her husband. Except a senior position with President Obama's re-election campaign. More from NPR's David Folkenflik. Norris has been a co-host of ALL THINGS CONSIDERED since 2002 and was previously a correspondent for ABC News and several leading newspapers including The Washington Post. Her husband Broderick Johnson is a Democratic political

strategist. He has just accepted a role as a senior adviser to the Obama campaign. NPR ethics policy has prevented journalists from reporting on areas directly linked to their spouses professional responsibilities. And NPR News executives and Norris quickly agreed it would be too hard for her to act as host but avoid political coverage within the show. That's NPR's David Folkenflik. The Dow is up 93 points it's at eleven thousand nine hundred two. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from Cabot creamery cooperative makers of naturally age Vermont cheddar cheese and offering recipes stories and programs for schools that Cabot cheese dot co-op. It's live and it's local. Coming up next two hours of local talk the Emily Rooney show and the Cali Crossley Show. Only on WGBH. Good afternoon you're listening to the Emily Rooney show well last week's capture and killing of

Libya's Moammar Gadhafi may be playing well for President Obama's foreign policy narrative. That of course plus the death of Osama bin Laden along with a few other highly placed al Qaeda operatives are shaping the political discourse. But Boston University's Andrew bass of it says the president is not shaping history he's chasing it trying to figure out what happened and what to do next. Andrew bass of it joins me by telephone welcome. Thanks very much. Well you're not denying though that the the neato air strikes were in large part responsible for the fact that Moammar Gadhafi was driven out in the first place and became vulnerable to his own people so you're creating not only this country but Neda with that. Well I mean I think I'd want to tell the story that until the uprising began the U.S. and its allies really didn't have much of a problem with Colonel Gadhafi. Remember we had brought him back in from the cold just a couple years for basically forgiven him

for his involvement in escapades like Pan Am 103. Attack only after it became apparent that he was in serious jeopardy that he was going to lie and basically become part of the story. And yes I would certainly made no effort materially and ensuring that the uprising would be. I think the most provocative thing you're saying here is that the the president the administration really isn't sure what's happening in there and these things are happening around him but they're looking back and wondering what are we going to do next I mean you saw where the New York Times Of course said well this is a victory to the American approach to war but you're not so sure about that. Well I mean I mean I'm not trying to have this be partisan argument I'm making. And that's why I'm in it. I think I'd rather. Sort of look back over a decade and recall that after 9/11 our confidence in

American military power was so great that somebody like George W. Bush could embark upon his so-called freedom agenda with the expectation that we had the power and the wisdom to basically change an entire region of the world. Here we are 10 years later the region is changing but not changing because of anything in particular. We're doing it's changing because of this phenomenon called the Arab Spring which we did not begin with we do not control. And I think which by and large as outside observers we struggle to understand. I think one of the things that everybody is wondering what kind of governments we're going to see take shape in a lot of these Arab countries of course yesterday Tunisia held its first free election in decades. Yesterday Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was on Meet the Press answering questions from David Gregory and he started out by asking her was the war with Iraq war worth it here's what she said was a war worth it.

We're going to have to wait a long time for the Iraqis themselves to answer that question. Freedom democracy the opportunities that people now have that were never available under the dictatorships of tyrants like Saddam Hussein or Qaddafi is certainly a new world that everyone finds themselves in. But you know I'm proud that the United States has stood on the side of those fundamental freedoms that we hold dear. Well we may hold them dear but will the Libyans the Tunisians. Do you know I think that is absolutely the 64 dollar question. I mean you just alluded to the election yesterday in Tunisia. Well what's the outcome. I have no idea do you. I don't know if you know and and I and I I would simply say that when my guess would be that when the nations are marching to the poll or when when when a dipshit vote in a couple of months they don't go

there necessarily. You know thinking about the American Declaration of Independence and Washington's preference that there's a dynamic that the process underway that that will I think almost definitely produce a Middle East that is radically different from what we have come to think of the Middle East. But the notion that. US involvement in running down him tin horn dictator Mike Duffy is going to determine the outcome. I think that's the part where I just sort of say wait you know I think it's gone way too far. What would you advocate I mean I really do understand that your position is nonpartisan I didn't mean to characterize it is anti administration but you're skeptical of Obama's approach. You also had rejected you know the Bush grand strategy in the Middle East. What would you do. Well I think I mean I think first we begin by with a sense of modesty. You know that I think that

the old dictum of first do no harm is worth really is worth considering. And I think that that is one one thing that would lead you to be a little bit careful about throwing around military power and then the other thing I would say and this is kind of an old fashioned sentiment I think but we can best have a positive impact on others by. Demonstrating our genuine commitment and capacity to live in accordance with our ideals to make American democracy something that is mired admired for things other than simply patterns of consumption. And given what's going on in our country especially since the economic collapse a couple years ago we just have a heck of a long way to go to make America what America ought to be. And I think that that's where the greater emphasis needs to be.

Well isn't that always the problem though I mean throughout history. Other governments have pointed us and our failures and collapses. I mean you even look at what's going on now with Occupy Wall Street Occupy Boston. Aren't aren't those things in some ways a model for other countries in terms of. Sure they they represent a failure of one type but they also represent the ability for you know I can tell you this Anderson I think you're exactly right. I do think that. Activism political activism evident of vibrant democratic politics probably does enhanced our image abroad. But I think that the question remains to be answered exactly where this latest burst of activism is going to to lead. I mean his Occupy Wall Street a two week story. Or is Occupy Wall Street does it indicate the leading edge of a new effort to

reform and re reconstitute American democracy. Again I think that remains to be seen that that may be. If if if the Arab Spring is the big story big question in the Middle East I think I think by Wall Street and what it implies is could well be the big story here at home. What is your take on the president's move to bring all of the troops in Iraq home by years and you think it's political or do you think it's a genuine effort to end our involvement there. Well I think I think it has become a genuine commitment to end our involvement. But I think it also it reflects a disappointment on the. Part of the administration they genuinely wanted to retain that residual U.S. force on the ground for some period of time. And I think that effort genuinely failed because we could not reach an agreement with the Iraqi government as to what would be the dad of the U.S. forces in the country. We want them we want U.S.

forces to have immunity from Iraqi law. Apparently the Iraqi government found that unacceptable. And on that basis the negotiations failed. But the president now I think is trying to put the best face undead diplomatic failure by thing. Well I promise you all along I would end the war and now I'm doing it. When you look though now I mean what has happened just in the last seven months you know starting in Tunisia Libya Egypt I mean all these countries though really are in the process of some kind of a major transformation I mean you can't give credit in some respects to the United States role in all of that. I must say. I have a hard time seeing any causal relationship. You know I there's been very little evidence that I've seen. Maybe I've missed it that the opponent of the old order in places like Egypt when they rose up were

pointing to Iraq as the source of inspiration or or or turning to the United States thing. Do you know Washington why don't you do for us what you did to the Iraqis. Rather my sense is that in much of the Arab world and Muslim world and I'm simply saying this that that there's been up there ever any data that might. My impression is that most of the people who live in that part of the world are appalled by U.S. behavior in Iraq. I just don't get it. There's a causal relationship. When you look at the bigger picture though over than the Middle East news of these grand kind of schemes who you know there's no simple way to put the question but doesn't it all hinge really on what's going to happen with the Palestinians. Well I think you can overstate the significance of that issue. But I think most people in Washington sort of foreign policy and insiders

tend to understate it. I think that the deal and. I really regret the fact that the so called peace process has come to be such an empty charade. I think it is simply hasn't been that way for decades really. I don't know every time somebody said and I'm not a I'm not trying to say there's been any partisan way. I think that President Clinton actually did make a real run at this problem and probably because of the kind of optimism that he has in approaching problem. I think he thought he had a pretty good shot at coming up with the solution of sort of replicating Jimmy Carter's achievement with regard to Israel and Egypt. That effort failed. I think that the failure of the Camp David to effort then the peace process I think it's been an empty spirit. What's your take on what's going on in Syria with Bashir Assad brutally

killing his own people. We don't seem to we're not involved there. Should we be. Like I said First do no harm. I mean I think it is it's a real tough nut. I do think we should. Consistently condemn I'm not sure how many other tools short of military tools we have available that could help to make a positive difference. And I think after a decade of war I'm third of I think I'm up. I've had enough of U.S. military intervention that have mostly not gone well that I'm not too keen on trying again in Syria. Do you think most of America feels that way. I'm guessing that they do. I mean there are certain members of the Republican Party that Senator McCain I think would be an example who for reasons that are difficult to understand are always willing to have another go.

But you know I think the mood of the country and I think this is reflected in the poll is one that would like to see the people in Washington give priority to domestic considerations especially those related to the economy. And it's hard to understand how another war would would contribute substantially to fixing our economy. That I can't imagine it but public at war. I'm sure that's occurring during Andrew pace of it's Thanks much for joining us. Thank you sir. Boston University professor and author of the of the book Washington Rules America's path to permanent war and the limits of power the end of American exceptionalism. We're going to take a short break when we continue we raise our Monday political periscope and take a closer look at this week's top political news you're listening to the Emily Rooney show. Stay with us.

This program is on WGBH thanks to you. And Beijing Dance Company making their Boston debut November 12th and 13th at John Hancock Hall in the Back Bay event center with a program of classical Chinese dance fused with cutting edge new creations info at Beijing Dance dot com. And New England Toyota celebrating Toyota's new family of technologically advanced nature inspired Prius models. You can learn more about the Prius hybrid family at their official website by a Toyota dot com. Rose and a good and decent man has burned for those.

Michael Shannon costar of Boardwalk Empire he plays a righteous prohibition agent who succumbs to temptation. Also medical ethicist Harriet Washington on the patenting of genes cells and tissues. Joining us. This afternoon at two on eighty nine point seven be eight. This Saturday. WGBH welcomes a truly unique ensemble of world renowned artists to Boston Symphony Hall. It's the 13th Annual classical cartoon festival October 29 starting at 10:00 a.m. you and your family will enjoy music from some of New England's best musicians and you'll have a chance to see some of the best Warner Brothers cartoons on the big screen. Tickets are available at the door for WGBH dot org slash cartoon fest the latest local news headlines are as close as your smartphone with the new WGBH app with a single tap you can dig deeper into the news of the day from

business to arts and culture. Just a free download away at the App Store or at WGBH dot org. Welcome back you're listening to the Emily Rooney show now as we do every Monday we raise our political periscope and take a look at where the U.S. Senate race stands the most local issues bubbling on Beacon Hill and of course the ever more interesting Republican presidential sweepstakes. I'm joined here by the Boston Globe's Joe Nike and Boston dot.com blogger Garrett Quinn who has some ideas for how to improve the hackneyed formula of those American political debates. Welcome to all of you. Both of you. All right let's start right there. First of all it's really not the networks who control those debates you know that it's the operatives that have you ever been a part of those negotiations with trying to put together a debate. You know free for all formats. They don't want that the candidates don't want them. It's so you know I think that that's why they're so tightly scripted and tightly.

You know you're taking notes. Oh no no I just it's always I think part of it's debate it's debate fatigue. We've we've got our eighth debate at this point you know and there was a point I think it was so ridiculous at one point Michele Bachmann declared her candidacy after that was one of the first ones yeah. And. To me their plan I think a much bigger role in this primary than in previous primaries because it's long it's more drawn out but also because it's just less strong now. It's well it's let's look. It's created more opportunities than we have had in the past. No stranger to make to make a major gaffe on a national stage and these things other things too. These are major ratings bonanzas for another thing I think I think you know I think with something like CNN pulled seven million people watched and I don't want to bet about that. Yeah I like these debates only when I'm not complaining you don't like the format. I'm just there. I'm tired of the at the beginning of the debates it's like watching the opening of the

baseball All-Star game they have they come out they introduce every guy they tell you know this is my last card doubt about it and they do like the National Anthem I'm like you know why are we doing God bless America. And like the 45 minute mark of the baby there's a point I was just so over Dawn. Well I agree with you the beginning is very produced and packaged and all of the above. But the last debate was really pretty much of a free for all. I think as it came as close as one can get in that I mean it had it. Drive letter away and I think the good thing about these debates is that each one has more or less reshaped the field in a certain way and I think that you know people are interested in seeing the candidates and looking at them one against the other so I think I mean I mean on the shonky but I kind of like these debate I want to say I like about it too is there is absolutely no attempt or presumption of fairness involved here. They look exactly you know I don't know. You know Rick Perry and Mitt Romney are right there front and center they put them next to each other none of this. Oh yeah won't we drew the names out of a hat and we

don't last a total random drop ridiculous of course it's never a random draw at the last debate though they put Herman Cain next year that is because it changes. Guys rise and fall but Romney's always better than it was at a you know it's last Saturday night was so funny they had you know 21 they had Ron Paul in a garage you had. People in a broom closet it was all depending on where you were currently with the poll and Jones write this you have seen this ploy. You have you've seen nobody has been hurt by these debates more than Rick Perry. Due to his exposure this guy came in like a night and a night and a white knight on a horse and he has just plummeted. How do you know I'm no Rick Perry apologist and he has done poorly. But I think people forget just how much practice Mitt Romney is ahead. You know he went through this the last time around there's nothing like there's no experience like one of those mandates. And I think he's put all those lessons to work and that's partly why he's doing as well as he is this time its best fantasy too he's a good retort guy I mean he probably has a few of those things

in his pocket and he's probably had more than one operative say you know what. Why don't you put your hand on Rick Perry. And see what happens with any lucky mate slug you. Yeah Rick he Rick Perry I mean Mitt Romney's exchange with Herman Cain when he was talking about apples and oranges and bushels and one this that the other was great. He just totally dismantled Herman Cain's 999 plan with just this this babbling way that Herman Cain explained it. And it Romney has consistently performed well at all as he baits I know some people criticized him because I thought he was he was he lost his cool or things like that in the last debate but I don't think that was a case at all Romney you know Romney was he shook up a little a little but Herman all these people were just consistently interrupting and I think Anderson Cooper arguably lost some control he was shook up a bit I think some hair moved on his head. But he was a little bit flustered but he has you know commit command of the stage and in that way he stated You know everyone thinks he will be the nominee. These are just

Perry Cain are just blips in the overall narrative here. Harry today I think he's doing this he's coming up with his own version of a flat tax not Herman Cain's 999 just a he or Steve Forbes is endorsing him now fund. SEE Ford said that 17 percent. That was his thing. But Romney's wealth here like the flat tax after you know back in the day it's at a certain point saying that he didn't so it's another little Romney flip flop thing that's remarkable that really strikes me is that Herman Cain at this point the racist is actually being taken seriously and there are like I don't think he is. Yeah I think you have to when the media is the only reason why only people there are there are there are there there he's being he's being treated as a serious candidate now with the poking and prodding of all of his plans is his ideas and it's pretty clear that this guy was not not ready for prime time. You know with the bumbling of all his different positions on whether it's abortion handling national security questions he has his back and forth on what the 999 plan is. I think a lot of ways I

think in primaries like this you have people that run who Yeah they'd like to be president but at the end of the day this will be good for their career this will raise their profile this will help them get a book deal that will help them get a talk show. Well I think Herman Cain is doing that. Well I would just say you know that sounds a bit elitist quite honestly. I think the scrutiny that he's getting now is you know it's about time that he's getting it and he deserves it. But if the polling shows that people are interested in his campaign then he should be treated serious. Yeah absolutely. But but I think I don't think that will last for him. I don't think he was prepared for this I don't think he ever thought it would be opposition leading the pack. The one I just wasn't asked mating is I have to still say Michele Bachmann because whenever she starts on something I really don't know where she's going to go with it she's usually ends up with some ode to motherhood doesn't it well yes it sure is. Meet the Press or one of those shows I don't know where talking about Obama's failed foreign policy I was it was CBS's Bob Schieffer was challenging her on that well last week we got Moammar Gadhafi early in the spring we got

some of the money he was going through some of these things and she was trying to justify her reasoning that his foreign policies had failed him and I you know she she has thought it through whether you can. I think the NRA she had responding on when that subject was taxes. I think she does a good job of articulating a position and she as she reminds constantly reminds viewers he was a former tax lawyer and that's the one area an issue that I think that she can speak with authority on the rest of it. I'm usually distracted by your hair and pearls you know. That's Carole that's that's the woman thing you damned if you don't you got a lot of the criticism she received for her white dress I think well then white I was surprised by by that but I guess that goes back to nobody ever critiques you know the guy suits it's always Oh she wore the shoe and they all look exactly yeah they all do with the red or blue power tie but Michelle Bachmann's fall from grace was even more I think and more impressive than

Perry's because. She she because Perry came in and snuffed all that I snuffed her ascendency right out after the raid at AOL of all stripes and then now he's you know she was just another one of the anti-Romney candidates. Who's going to be the anti-Romney candidate after after Cain Santorum Gingrich talking to author Gary Quinn author of the LESS IS MORE blog and Boston dot com and Boston Globe columnist Jonathan I keep going to move on and talk about our own United States Senate race. Joan you have declared this class warfare. Well the headline writer did I know I don't write that I know what you know I know I think that right now you know Scott Brown's best narrative and he's you know he's not shying away from it is try to paint her as you know the Harvard elite who's being supported by Washington and Hollywood and her. She raised a lot of money through over 3 million dollars a lot of it did come from Washington establishment figures and from a few you know

liberal Hollywood types. I don't think that's going to work over the long run. But for now it's I guess it's the best he's got so he's going with it. It's amazing how much attention she's gotten in the New York Times alone I think they're going to like five features on her in three weeks not to mention it Tauriel. So raising her so soft indorsement but not not all that not just that's not helpful. And she does run the risk of you know sort of the stereotyping maybe a Saturday Night Live skit at a certain point between the Harvard Crimson and the New York Times Barbara Streisand how lefty get and also let us remember Cambridge resident. But you know you have and I but I the knocking her elite. I don't I don't see how that how how far that how much Let me like how much how what kind of legs that's going to have at this point. It's easy to get tiresome it's going to you see it in the press releases that you know calling her hot professor wore and things like this hitting her for Oklahoma thing you saw that with the Hindu. Explain that explain that comment Gen-X is what you were writing about her comment about getting the hate vote.

She was on my left. Lefty blog interview and she was saying in a disparaging way talking about us referencing our own Oklahoma roots and saying I'm going after you know the hit vote that I represent. Of course the Republicans jumped on that immediately and made a big fuss over the fact of the use of the word hick asked her to apologize which she wisely did not given that Brown has apologized for anything why should she. And you know again I mean they're trying to make the most they can out of not a lot. I don't think it's as I agree with you it's doesn't really have legs in the long run. Well if you think the attacks are always there's there's a room. I think it's pretty clear that Warren's probably going to get the nomination but the way the it's kind of it is unfair to people like Alan Casey who do have a significant amount of money and still have a ways to go in this race. I'm not saying he's going to come back but the amount of attention she received as you know it

is astounding to her somebody who's never run for office who's more been more of a Washington person than a Massachusetts person for much of her career. It is not to get renominated is not the nominee and she's being treated that way and I think you're the critic concerned though of all the out of state money for her that is needs to be addressed too because Brown brought Scott Brown we got to remember Scott Brown wouldn't be a US senator if he did not raise a significant chunk of change from out-of-state sources right when the reality really right at the end. Yeah that was a nationalized race and it's pretty clear this race is already a national race it's one of the three I think there's two races where the Republicans are vulnerable Senate races where the Republicans will fail and I believe the other one is Nevada and you're going to see they are going to focus laser like on this race because they're going to lose. They're going to lose signal number of seats that they're up there. They're vulnerable and I think they're vulnerable in 10 and they're good this is one of the seats that they could win that could cushion the losses they're going to sustain in 2012. The whole strategy of those so-called Washington Democrats was to make this a national race

because he already had 10 million plus in the bank and they wanted a Democrat who could raise that much money and she's proving that that bet at least was correct. She's keeping something of a low profile we've talked about this before. I mean she she did did an interview very briefly last week with this radio show she's done a few but since that first kind of blast out of the box right after Labor Day she hasn't really been in a lot of it's not as if he's the most accessible guy in interviews either photo and when he does go out he tends to make some mistakes. I'd say you know despite their lack of accessibility both of them are generating huge headlines so it's you know words are usually is the strategy is you know why bother why get yourself in trouble everybody's writing about them talking about them. They don't have to say you know say anything I think about it every time they say something right they get one foot in mouth one thing going to be interesting to see is the Occupy Boston people put together a there's a movement with I don't know I hear more of the officially pastor and author one of their general assemblies there's this

call to invite the Senate candidates down there to have a discussion with them. And Alan Keyes he's already gone down there Herb Robinson's gone down there I'm not sure of the other candidates. But if I asked Warren that last week and as of then she I think she said she had not. I don't know that she's gone there. If I would guess that I'd say that she's probably not going to rush on down. Yeah that's but it would be interesting to see how she sort of I think she's been down there twice already I would rush on down if I were her I know. Well I don't know how many registered voters there are down there are people down there trying to register people I and it is you know controversial You would think they were her people. But she may not want to embrace them that tightly. She didn't brace them in the debate either the first time either you just and yes she really was sort of talked about have been challenging Wall Street for. And Casey was like I want to she's been challenging it from Washington. Yeah and quite different birth.

I want to move on to couple of local issues here one is this. Because you know Bill this debate over the happy hour that's going through the legislature right now. I mean basically what it is is an attempt to mobile the playing field. If as this because you know Bill currently provides casinos can offer free liquor or a reduced cost you know two for one kind of things all day long I mean there's virtually no restriction on the liquor license at a casino. That's the whole point to get people in there you get them drunk and they spend all their money and walk around and what happens. But. But haven't sen Bob Headland is saying well if the casinos can do it restaurants and bars should be able to do it now. I should say that on the headlands behalf he was against. He's against it period he's against happy hour he is not for the bill by the way that allowed it. That would have allowed you know I think the extended liquor license for the casinos I have heard of speak for myself on that but he says as long as it's going to go through then it should

apply to. He also owns a restaurant I know because he said he's on about so he you know isn't not exactly a disinterested party in all this. I think it's a terrible idea. You know put me down I'm not you know prohibition a strange thing like that and I and enjoy my glass of wine now and again. Probably more now than again. But we in 1984 Massachusetts eliminated happy hours because of a series of really bad accidents and I know to some people that's ancient history. But there is a connection between drinking and bad accidents that kill people. And I just think this is one of our sorely bad error though because you can buy your drinks and get just as drunk. Well but it's makes it easier if they're freer to for one of their giant drinks. I just think it's a bad idea it's another one of these things it's a bad thing that's coming out of this whole casino legislation. The ban on happy hour is something to me that just you go to other states and it seems like they can hand they can handle their liquor just fine you go to other cities they can

handle it just fine. I've never I understand in the 80s one of the big moral panics was was it was drunk driving. But I think there are such severe laws now in the books that I don't that people are going to drink and drive but they're there. We're seeing a less instances of repeat offenders it is it and I don't think legalizing the happy hour again is going to suddenly see this surge of people on the streets or just to be drunk and you know driving cars into buildings and crash into people and I think the way they're doing it though with with this casino bill is a little odd. It's something that needs to be it needs to be addressed. I think separately from this it's sort of a backhanded way to to to do away with this but my understanding too with this law is it's it's not it's the it's not an action it's a stat it's an order from the Alcohol Beverage Control Commission I believe is they be they handle it is not an actual law because they'd forget what the actual term for it is but they are the ones that are and I think I think you're right about Law Order.

You know it it still has the same effect. I think there's I understand why casinos give away free drinks. I think fewer people probably you know walk out of a casino and get into a car because they're often connected to hotels and people staying. You know maybe you're right maybe you're wrong but it will learn again from from bad experiences that maybe there is a reason why Massachusetts has one of the lowest rates of fatalities from drunk driving it's because we don't have happy hours. But in a city like Boston we have umpteen cabs available we have a massive public transportation system available people can be responsible drinkers get liquored up and not gradually in the less responsible the more they drink. That's true but if you're having today you need to get about responsibility you forget about designated drivers you forget about a lot of things when you've had. I think there's so much really big drinks and I you know I know. I think he struck down a key thing here and it's really all about because you know Bill it's like if you can have one vice and one killing it twice like that just go ahead.

I think that you know knock down all the barriers at this point that's you know I really at this point it's like if we're really going to go ahead with that then go ahead bring back the happy hour and everything else the culture is different now the wise drunken driving there is such there is such a stronger emphasis on personal responsibility when it comes to drinking there's such a bigger emphasis on not getting the car car and driving while you're drunk there's this culture didn't exist to the extent that it does today that it did in the 80s it's very different. Yes there are there are differences of binge drinking but there is a much more there is a stronger emphasis on not doing it there is a stronger tone as a mechanism here. I think I don't. After the fourth drink quite honestly I don't want to sound like some old fashioned lady from the past. I do have a 22 year old son and I you know maybe I'm thinking in terms of that generation. I know they talk about designated drivers they take the TV etc. etc. I just think you lose sight of danger when you've had too much to drink and it's cheap. But on the other hand if the casinos can do it. You know what the law is now how it works you have to

return as you say like you know you change the words of L.. You can only if the price is mandated has to stay the same for seven days. You can't change the price of any you can you can create you know a $2 by white deal or $2 or whatever deal but it has to stay that way for seven days you can't. Is that the way that's the way it is now you will I will be interested to see where Governor Patrick comes down on the happy hour Amendment. Now he hasn't said too much about that. Anyway what's going to happen with our redistricting when we know anyway the money you're going to know we're losing a con whatever we're never going to know when when when when when Killed Health and we're you know away from an election. Somebody is going to be like musical chairs here. I bet he's not going to have a suit. Howie Carr the other day I hypothesize that it could be over as McGovern I think I think it's more likely they'll probably be out of sight out of mind inch. Yeah I would. It's got to be in one of the denser districts that's really going to make more sense as the conventional wisdom is that it's Keating And lest you know something jurors are not telling us No I don't I just know because I everyone said it was going to be key to

the the thing is this is all it's always fun because you get to look at all the mess the maps come out they've just changed over time. Barney Frank I think often I dislike Maria's district but it's not his it's not his fault because that was drawn up for a doctorate heckle and I'm going to tell you where you have to offer Margaret Heckler and part of it was it was supposed to she was supposed to keep it and she did it went to Franken and now it's just there's no reason. Brookline should be tied to the cell's gerrymandered to favor Barney Frank who was German to Margaret Heckler Noah gerrymandered to favor borrowing for artists don't tell him that because he yelled at me once when I wrote it it's true that originally it was Margaret's and that market hecklers and then when we lost a Congress person when was having 1000 eating their memory and we said we didn't last. No 91 didn't we lost one in 91 right I don't know it was after they have to happy hour. Anyway off it was reconfigured to favor Barney Frank. It just was that sorry Barney but that's true.

The fun thing about redistricting too is you get to see all have all these awkward conversations with the reps and state reps the state senators were talking about August going to move so I don't have to face him or I'm going to do this summer to do that. I think it's still it's still strange to me that we don't have an independent commission to have that this was still voted by legislatures that legislators are going to move on in a minute because I want to talk about the Boston Globe's fish story with one of the reporters on that story but quickly what is your take and Jill Stein getting into the presidential race. I mean she's gone from a kind of a local farmer to now a look now she's like you know she was people took her seriously she ran for Senate she was like at least in there it was it Senator. She ran for governor Governor remember Governor she's right she's run for governor secretary of state that's a right. Well well this isn't going to be popular with the Jill Stein crowd but let me say there's a certain amount of ego involved. I want to run for president. I don't get it. I don't understand it. I mean the Harold Stassen of the Ralph Nader the

Ralph you're good for Jill if she if she wants to run for if she wants to run for president and put herself out there and go through all the nightmarish paperwork to do it good for her I don't know if I think if Alan Kays he can't get any coverage I think she'll have to talk for a long time. We can wrap this through with the debates. I'd love to see it there with the Green Party the Libertarian Party can either have a Democrat. All right Garrett Quinn Jova Naki thanks so much for being with us today for a political periscope we're going to take a short break when we continue. Over the years we've heard a lot about this swapping where restaurants are for one thing but serve you another. Now the Boston Globe has uncovered some astonishing statistics. We'll get to that listen to the Emily Rooney show Stay with us. WGBH programs exist because of you. And UMass Memorial Medical Center and their Euro gynecology team specializing in surgical and nonsurgical solutions for urinary incontinence and other pelvic floor disorders. White papers online at UMass Memorial dot

org slash for women. And Tivoli audio I think WGBH and all it represents both in this market and really around the world. It's important for our company to be socially aware Tom divest Oh founder and CEO Tivoli audio has just started a sponsorship and we already hear from people regularly that they hear. Sponsorship on the radio and I think it's to our customers to learn more about sponsorship. Call six one seven three hundred fifty five hundred. I'm Lisa Mullins PR as the world is news. A lot of jubilation here at the news of that opens up the world. Is people really out to get you know just us in the world is ideas how to be moral to justice then the myth of Colonel Gadhafi would have been destroyed. Now of course the danger is they can be seen as a martyr. Join us and hear the World coming up at 3 o'clock here at eighty nine point seven billion GBH. I'm inviting you to join the WGBH Celtic.

Not only will you receive discounts and invitations to concerts and events all over town. Right now. Thanks with a pair of tickets to a Christmas coming this December to a concert hall near you. Membership starts at $150 a year visit WGBH dot org slash Celtic. The latest local news headlines are as close as your smartphone with the new WGBH as a single tap keeps you up to date with headlines from business to arts and culture. Just a free download away at the App Store or look. At the dot org. Welcome back you're listening to the Emily Rooney show its investigative journalism at its core. A reporter smells something fishy and goes digging for answers in an exhaustive new investigation by The Boston Globe that something fishy was well on the pitch for five months. Globe reporters looked into the practice of mislabeling fish

by Bay State restaurants grocery store seafood markets. What they found was that Massachusetts consumers consumers are routinely overpaying for a less desirable and sometimes undesirable species of fish in many cases the fish was caught thousands of miles away and frozen not hauled in by local fishermen as the menu or label claims. Sometimes this the errors are innocent but often the switch was deliberate driven by profits. Joining me by phone to talk about the fishy business of mis labeling is Boston Globe business reporter Jenn Ableson welcome John. I think for having me. This was awesome I have to say it's everything that I think everybody kind of suspected but how do you figure out that it's true. And I loved the way you went about that DNA sampling and the fact that you explained how you did that because I was wondering myself no wait a minute how do you sneak something off your plate into a bag and then rush off and try to figure out what it was. Yeah no we didn't actually taste any of the fish which is a lot of the questions that we got from chefs once we went back and asked them about it. We we went to 100. Eighty

four eighty three restaurants supermarkets and fish markets across the state and sort of collected fish and froze it kept it in locked glow brooms and then we did our Mad Science DNA testing with this lab that we partnered with in Canada. OK but did you go into restaurants and you name names I love that you know Legal Seafood or skip Jacks and take something home off the menu. How did you figure. Yes the we we did almost entirely takeout we would order something on the menu or if they said they had a special we would and they ate that and they would identify it as a specific fish. We tried to focus on specific species that we had understood were frequently substituted. So this is not like a rightly representative sample of every fish out there so we chose to look at things like bread. Now the bird snapper that's a common one and we did looked at local Cod we looked at white tuna and and so we would order these things and we would and took them home there were a few cases where we were allowed to do takeout so we sat there didn't eat the fish and then brought it back.

That tuna substitute was rather shocking because that did. I even look like tuna. That was disgusting. That's almost I think with all of the sushi restaurants that claim to have been serving white you know super white you know albacore every case that was Escalade which is the cheaper species it is nicknamed the ex-lax fish in the industry because it causes severe gastrointestinal issues. And it's definitely not at all part of the tuna family. Wow under this haven't we had sushi two years ago and haven't been able to have it since it's sick and something that I had. How did you guys get into this I mean it's something that people talk about when they go to restaurants all the time but what was the spark the motivation for looking into this. We started first actually with a story that ran in day to today which was about. There's a local seafood broker named Tom Cat who ran a fish company called Universal fish and he supplied what to TGIF Friday is a huge national chain each. Why the Vietnamese catfish and that of the grouper that they thought they were getting and this happened a while ago but he's only now with decent punishment and as we are getting into it in the

fascinating world of sort of seafood business we thought it would be really interesting and we've seen a couple of studies out in other places about what was going on and we thought it be great to take a look at what was happening here in Massachusetts. I mean I was surprised at some of them like Ming siding with the Blue Ginger out in the Wellesley which is you know renowned restaurant a celebrity chef and he admitted that he mislabeled his fish he was calling something butter fish because he says oh it has to do rolls like your tongue but it was really what was it again. It's called stable fish and for him you know we did put him in there because it wasn't the correct species and it was you know there are accorded the FDA is the agency that sort of oversees this and they have these names that they have acceptable market names for different species and there's a different fish out there that can be called butter fish but stable fish is not one of them I mean people fish is a perfectly delicious fish. It's a great fish and it's an expensive fish but he you know he said he just chose to call it mean different. He did think that it was acceptable and I think in Alaska there might be some people who call it butter fish but the the Food Marketing Institute said that wasn't that most people don't they don't call

it that but they call it label FISHER They call it black cod. But you know what. It was it wasn't really a profit issue it was really more of just a name name upgrade to call it something more palatable and a lot of people who knew sable fish knew it as something that would be you get at a Jewish deli a sort of smoked and he thought it didn't really evoke fine dining. He's right. We should probably disclose to that Ming Tsai is a WGBH Radio contributor Bill. He has agreed to go back and change the name correct. I have not heard that I thought that's what I thought so you reported I don't want to say I thought you did. No I don't I don't know if we reported I don't think we did I mean he just said that he didn't realize that and he I mean I had to give him credit that he is sort about the he has been at the forefront of sort of many transparency and really on top of things with Al or you know with food allergies making sure everything's you know incredibly clear so if he does do that that's great I mean I think part of the point of our story is to stay. There are lots of fish out there that are good fish and they should just be sort of called what they are so consumers know what it is nor any potential health or

allergy or other issues. John Abell some from Boston Globe who worked on the Globes for five months on this fishy business report. How did you determine the freshness quality I mean I frankly am always suspicious when I go into Legal Seafood that the stuff has been flash frozen pre-prepared and then microwave it's too exact it's too identical. Every single time every single thing is all cooked to death two hours and say how do you determine though if something has been previously frozen. I mean for us. The biggest you know the big deal the way that we are determined largely was just based on they call it fresh cod as they called it local Cod and the species turned out to not be Atlantic cod or it didn't turn out to be haddock which is around here in the Atlantic Ocean it it was Pacific cut so there's there's no way that they're there able to you know a lot without a lot of substitution for Pacific Cod which is you know on the other side of the country flash frozen there often it's times it's twice frozen and it's shipped all the way

around here. And so it can take you know weeks months to get here and not to say that they I mean there's great for using technology isn't it. It can be quite you know good tasting once you eat it but I think you know the idea these days is just that if you want to if you're trying to support a local industry and there's all these restaurants who are claiming to buy from local fishermen but are actually getting fish from you know much cheaper across the world than you know there's there's an issue there. Yeah I mean some of these fish have been on the boats for months I was always shocked to read that when you know a perfect storm and all those books you see oh really some of that fish has been packed in ice for a really long time. But but if you go into a place like Legal Seafood and order you know a flounder. How do you know how you know they say it's fresh. How would you know in terms of freshness I mean we didn't. Really focus too much on that we did more on the issue of DNA testing. So I mean we were able to tell if it was a local fish or not we were able to tell if it was a specific species or not Legal Seafood. We you know they came up we did four tests of them and three of them were correct species and one there was an

issue which they said was more of a clerical problem. But you know we did pretty well. They did pretty well you know you would hope they would I mean they have some high standards out there and Roger Burke of it you know his he knows his reputation is state on that and I think they do a good job as best as they can and it shows you that when when even an issue like this can happen there that it can kind of happen anywhere. I mean some of these places can't categorize restaurants but you might expect TGIF Fridays. You know I mean I would never order fish in a restaurant like that so you define that depending if the fish was the specialty they were more apt to be honest. I mean I think what we found is that it sort of was across the board from mom and pop chains to high end restaurants. There was issues of mislabeling So I think that there was there was no one that was necessarily exempt. We did find a large majority of frozen fish at supermarkets were properly labeled. Other than that you know we tried to be as fair as possible in going after a restaurant that was big and small supermarkets chains

and and high end and low end. And it was sort of a. Issue that cropped up all over. What advice can you give to consumers. What what to look out for when somebody thinks they're buying some you know special price you fish and turns out to be a filet of Tal Apia I mean what do you tell people. I think the best thing they can do is sort of do what we did which is ask questions. I mean not necessarily go DNA they can't really DNA test but to go and ask you know ask questions of the waitstaff if they don't know ask to talk to the chef. Question sort of where was it caught. What kind of fish it is. Is it in use in and try to be as educated as possible because that's all that you really can do and sort of try to go out there do the right thing and eat the kind of fish you want. Should people automatically be suspicious of red snapper and Chilean sea bass which Lanty bass we didn't necessarily come up with any problems I would say if you go to a sushi restaurant and you order red snapper and even to other restaurant a red snapper there's we found I mean 24 out of 26 samples were not red snapper. So I think if you go to the restaurant and you order the red snapper it's likely going to be tilapia. And I think if you go to a

sushi restaurant and you order white you know it's going to be ethical and. And so I think that if you know it it's not 100 percent guaranteed but we found it almost every time that that was the case. So those kind of think I think you can be fairly suspicious of it otherwise you know if you just got to ask questions and try to be as transparent and make the restaurant accountable as well. Well we're all going to be suspicious from now on because I say Great reporting Jan. Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me. All right not as they are going to do what. Oh that was a loud clap there. That's going do it for us this afternoon and you can take a look at the Boston Globe series The Boston Globe dot com or link to it from our website at WGBH dot org. That's going to do it for us this afternoon. Thanks to my guests will be back tomorrow at noon. Stay with us now from the Kelly Crossley Show coming up next. And tune into Greater Boston tonight at 7:00 on channel 2. The Emily Rooney show is a production of WGBH radio on the web at WGBH dot org. Boston Public Radio. I'm Emily Rooney. Have a great afternoon.