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I'm Cally Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. The population of high risk sex offenders has spiked in parts of Boston. Now the city faces a dilemma about integrating sex offenders into the community without compromising the safety of local residents. Sex offenders freed from jail typically have no family to take them in place that they can call home. So for many the only destination is the home a shelter with loopholes in the law allowing sex offenders to legally declare residency at homeless shelters without actually staying there. Today an untold number of high risk sex offenders are roaming the city's streets. It's a situation that touches on every element of living in a modern day metropolis. Homelessness and crime. A beleaguered prison system gentrification and a legitimate safety concerns of neighborhoods with a not in my backyard attitude. Up next These are the people in your neighborhood sussing out the sex offender dilemma. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying President Obama is formally

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musicians are expected to vote on the agreement in the next three days. For NPR News I'm know of Shinseki in Detroit. Several large companies are alerting customers about fraudulent emails and try to get people's account logon information from them. About a dozen companies are reporting that their systems may have been hacked and customers e-mail addresses exposed after a security breach at Epsilon. The Dallas based company manages e-mail communications. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News in Washington. Support for NPR comes from CIT for last selling all callers of the Herman Miller air on chair online including sit for a last true black online at CIT for last dot com. Good afternoon I'm Kalee Crossley This is the Calla Crossley Show. Recent reporting from the south in news in The Boston Herald revealed that the number of high level sex offenders in District 4 which includes the south in lower Roxbury and parts of the Back Bay and

Fenway is on the rise. We're taking the full hour today to delve into all aspects of this issue. Joining me to talk about what's at stake when high level sex offenders reenter civilian life our collars quaver us a professor at Northeastern University School of Criminology and Criminal Justice. Lydia Downie the president of the Pine Street in Representative Aaron Michael vits and Kate Vander wheat managing editor of the South in news. Welcome to you all. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having me. Listeners we want you to get in on this we're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. What would you do if you found out that a high level sex offender had moved into your neighborhood. Do you think they have the right to have a second chance to move back into the community. Would you like them to have longer and harsher prison sentences. We're at 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. That's 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 and you can send us a tweet or write a comment to our Facebook page. Let me start this way

just by bringing everybody to the same page all of our listeners. It was three years ago that the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts ruled that sex offenders could record their residency at a homeless shelter with the state's sex offender registry without staying there. So what's come out of that is that it's difficult for the police to track them. It's crowding the shelters. And it's concerning residents who have noticed the increase in numbers particularly in District 4. I think I want to start with you Professor quavers First of all what does it mean to be a level 3 sex offender. Well the state of Massachusetts has a sort of level system to categorize the offenders and the levels are actually based on the individual's risk. So the sex offender registry board reviews a person's offense other sort of relevant risk factors and basically ranks what their level of risk is and then accordingly provide them with either a level one two or three depending on what level they get that also impacts what their requirements are for

registration notifications or for example level one offenders just need to provide the information to the store but it's not publicly available level to offenders their avail their information is publicly available but they has to be requested somebody has to go to a police station and say oh can I have the information on level two offenders in my community and level three offenders have their information publicly disseminated in some way and. If you've ever been online to this one registry Board website their information is all available there. Different jurisdictions do it different way either by fliers or in the newspaper the local newspaper even a local TV channel so the level three individuals are both the individuals who are considered to be the highest risk for recidivism. And why is that. Because you know what have they. What kind of crime did they commit such that you level 3. Well the crime can be very different but usually tends to be the more serious more sort of heinous at least as we view the more heinous crimes so usually contact offenses or repeated offenses also individuals with

more of a criminal record that's associated with higher arrest of they're more likely to be ranked higher. Generally if they haven't had any treatment if they have haven't had any sort of or they have sort of problems with compliance with their you know any sort of confused vision of the past. These are all sort of the factors associated with increased risk and therefore the individual sort of merit getting that a higher level. That's my guess Carlos quavers He's a professor at Northeastern University School of Criminology and Criminal Justice. And just to be clear. We're in this conversation very concerned with level three sex offenders but the law as was applied by the Supreme Judicial Court is that all sex offenders are just level three in terms of saying that they could register at home. Homeless shelters. Well I believe the registration is for basically for level to a level three offenders because level ones don't have to do that and I believe it applies to both Level Two out of three individuals. OK. Kate I want to turn to you and you are Kate Vander wee managing editor of the self in news and you've been covering this issue. There is a

Association and neighborhood association a holdover neighborhood association that sort of brought this issue to the attention of the residents in the area and held some public meetings this want to get a sense of the community how or what were they expressing in those in those meetings. You know well as opposed to saying a. Police Office gives out this list of the level three sex offenders so the old over neighborhood association got their hands on this list and they have a very good relationship with the police and they were shocked I guess to see how many level three sex offenders had been registering in their area and specifically at the Pine Street in. Some residents were just very concerned because they didn't know what to do now they didn't know how to take this information and move forward with it and figure out how to deal with having sex offenders living next to their families. But I. Others were just really worried about you know their children and their neighbor's children. And are these people that we need to worry about and watch for and even if I know who they are and I see them in the park I can't do

anything about it. It's just I know that they're there and I'm still concerned. And then there are you know a few who have expressed frustration that these level three sex offenders are losing their civil rights by you know being discriminated against and having to go go against the communities. So I think that there's a range of feelings among community members from outright anger and concern to how do we make a compromise so that we can all live together. OK Limpia downie president of the Pine Street in your sort of caught between a rock and a hard place. There were informal agreements that these men could come and register there and now they become formal so that police in the state are asking shelters like yourself to take them in and allow them to register. At shelters like the Pine Street Inn. How have you been handling this what's the scenario now. Well Kelly what I'd say is that even though there might be informal agreements I

think most of these people are coming from state correctional facilities some from county most from state and the state correctional facilities often don't have another plan for them. They end up homeless and they end up showing at a homeless shelter. It's an issue frankly all over the state not just an issue in the south end but many of these people by their status are now deemed homeless they often can't get jobs they can't find housing. I would say we feel pretty frustrated in trying to find these folks housing they're ineligible for most types of housing. They're often ineligible for employment. And our job is to get people out of homelessness not keep them homeless. So I think there's a pretty high level highest rating feeling like not a whole lot we can do for these folks. And in addition to that they're crowding your shelters frankly. Yes. Yes I would say the numbers as the numbers grow. It's not just about how many new people come in to shelter what part of what makes shelters crowded is how long people stay. So people that can't get housing or jobs end up staying for a long time they take up a lot of beds from other people for example who can't get a bed. You know all winter we slept about 90 people on the floor because there were enough beds in the city.

Right. Our number is 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. You can send us a tweet or write a comment to our Facebook page. I want to get Representative Aaron Michael Witt into this conversation before we take some calls. Representative Lydia has just said this is happening across the state. But you became aware of the large numbers in your area and you represent District 4. Yeah well I represent the third self-destruct which includes about half the south end and Chinatown the north and the monks tend downtown neighborhoods. And we did become aware of it and really we became aware of it because of the increase in the crime numbers overall that were taking place down around Pine street whether it be washing the street Harrison have Albany Street and the community was trying to find a reason answers to why that was happening. This isn't necessarily saying that this is the reason why that's happening but this this became light. This became part of the discussion. Once these numbers became aware and and the community was very upset and very very concerned about you

know their well-being and their and mostly in particular what Kate was saying their children's well-being. And you know we've gone to some community meetings we've had we've had a lot of discussion with Pine Street and with the partner corrections and it's an ongoing process that you know we're trying to see if there is legislative. Initiatives that can be taken can solve the issue or if it's more of a policy discussion for the apartment of Corrections long term let me just before I take these calls just point out that one of the reasons that it's become a big issue in both your area and across in Massachusetts is because other states have closed shelters so this becomes more pressure here then. Yeah I mean I think the partner of Corrections recently said that there is a 7 percent increase in level three sex offenders being released across the state over the last year. But that in the 0 2 1 1 8 area code which is where pine tree is located there's a 40 percent increase. So there really is a cost. It really has become a concentration for and for some for whatever reason that

you know people are being released from these prisons and they are going directly either to Pine Street or to some of the other homeless shelters in the area. OK that was my guest Representative Aaron Michel that's part of the district the district forest part of the area that he represents. Let me go to callers Jared from Lawrence you're an eighty nine point seven the Calla Crossley Show Go ahead please. I just like to say when you when you get to the fact that you've got a homeless shelters that are already overburdened. I think we should absolutely be looking at marriage and background checks and then placing value on certain people and others deciding that certain people are more deserving of this shelter than others when you consider that you know some people are physically disabled mentally disabled and then you've got actual sexual offenders and you've got overcrowded almost fell through. It just seems to make sense to me that you're going to be doing a background

check. So Jared are you saying that within the constituency of sexual offenders we should look carefully at them or are you just are you just saying that the entire group of sexual offenders should be compared to whomever else needs shelter and decide their worth in that way. Absolutely. I think we should view what we have and then deciding yes depending on how bad your background is you do or don't be in the shelter. OK all right thank you very much for the call Jared. Professor of us what do you say there I mean we are talking levels level 3 sexual offender So yeah I know and I mean I think I think the caller sentiment is sort of a not an uncommon one in terms of people feel like these individuals sort of at the bottom of the rung when it comes to sort of their standing in society and because of what they did in the heinous crimes they've committed. I think one of the challenges that we're we're facing in terms of how do we deal with these individuals is that they are very much sort of

stigmatized they're very much sort of seen you know as of the worst of the worst. And that's sort of you know we want to see them suffer because of done a heinous thing which is a perfectly normal reaction to have. The problem is that if we want to focus on victim protection I mean that's really what this is sort of important and what it is about. We actually want these guys to have a more stable life. I mean a lot of the things are associated with risk are things like you know sort of psychological stressors lack of housing lack of employment a lot of the sort of stability building things in life and as popular as it may sound to say you do want these guys in a stable environment stable living sort of getting services getting support because those are the things are associated with a decreased risk of re-offending. And if you want to protect victims we want these guys stable. We want these guys sort of being able to reintegrate themselves in society because that's going to help to manage the risk of them doing this again. And the key to stability is having a place to claim as residence. Well one of the sort of the basics of life is you know can you get the paycheck and can you have a place to live

and can you buy your groceries in a lot of the starting off point. And then from there you want psychological health compliance with probation making sure they're making use of services are available to them because of the kind of things that then make it so that their risk of recidivism goes down and if we're worried about victim protection that's one of the tools we have to help diminish the risk. That's my guess Carlos quavers he is a professor at Northeastern University School of Criminology and Criminal Justice he is one of several guests here as we talk this entire hour about reintegrating high level sex offenders into the community without jeopardizing the safety of local residents. Listeners What would you do parents neighborhood organizers police officers get in on this at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Do you live in one of these areas where the number of sex offenders is on the rise. What does the city need to do to respond. 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 8 7

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I think their shock experience Emily Rooney on WGBH weekdays at noon on eighty nine point seven at 7pm on GBH too. I'm Cally Crossley This is the Kelly Crossley Show. If you're just tuning in we're talking about the dilemma of integrating high risk sex offenders once they've been released from prison into the community without compromising the safety of the rest of the neighborhood. I'm joined by Carlos quaver a professor at Northeastern University's School of Criminology and Criminal Justice. Lydia Downie the president of the Pine Street and Representative Aaron Michael Wittes and Karen vendor weed managing editor of the South and news listeners were at 8 7 7 3 0 0 170 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. What should the city do. Do sex offenders deserve a second chance. Would you like to see them locked up indefinitely. Is this the price we pay for living in a city. 8 7 7 3 0 1. Eighty nine seventy eight 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. Russ from Cape Cod. Go

ahead please you're on the Cali Crossley Show. Happen in Cali. I have to point and I'm against the whole idea of the registry in the first place. The first point is if we really feel these people are so likely to be offended they should stay in prison. But do Americans for example War on Drugs are prisons are overcrowded and where having let out people who are truly dangerous because some guy got caught with a dime bag. But the other point is that one most children who are molested are molested by someone in the home. And perhaps our laws can give a better number. But I was under the impression that we're talking 90 percent of victims a molested by a family member or someone close to the family. So this idea of a stranger in a van offering an equally good just in reality and by making it harder for people to be integrated into the society. We do increase the risk of re-offending. I think that sex offender registry is a brutal and unusual punishment because we don't keep

registries for other types of offenders. I'm more worried if there's a drunk driver who lives on my street or if there's someone in an apartment building. The history of assault because why does one crime leave you with this big mud that follows you for your entire life whereas other crimes which in some ways are just as bad or worse and are more likely to re-offend. They get to serve their time then they get. I think no further. Well Russ Good questions all and I'm going to kick it off to Professor Carl is quite of us as you suggested and we will attempt to answer your questions thank you so much for the call. Well Russ is absolutely right most of sexual violence takes place by either somebody in the family or somebody known to the victim particularly offenses against child. The 90 percent figure is actually a sort of regularly sided one. The range is probably somewhere between 70 90 percent depending sort of what you read and sort of what research you look at so he's absolutely right about that. And I think the other thing that is important in terms of the

point that he made is that you know we have this system where. We have sort of said OK here is a group of individuals that we consider much more dangerous much more heinous. But if you look at recidivism rates for both sexual violence for you know just a general set of ism and really offending against in terms of sexual violence sex offenders are the second lowest recidivist of all the sort of types of offending that we track including you know violent offending drug offending so on and so forth. So they are the ones who are statistically the least likely to do things again particularly to sort of you know re-offend in the same type of violence. Senator Michael Woods I keep thinking to myself that it's because it's sexual offenders that there's a lot of attention paid. And I think what comes to mind for most of us is kids and these you know sketchy looking older guys creeping around the neighborhood and so political will would suggest that that's why there is a registry.

Am I right. That's that's one of the problems that we face right now especially in the south and in the old over neighborhood association is because the numbers and the facts have been put out there without the education without the education or the or the or the understanding behind those numbers and like we're talking about people you know committing crimes you know amongst people that they know or family members and and that that right now right now we're playing catch up on that and that's that's kind of a dilemma that we're facing right now and yes in the political will that that that partakes it it makes it very difficult. And OK so Kate when you were going to the community meetings and you said there was a wide spectrum of response there. But I'm wondering of the people who say we need to know where they are. They want that registry right. They want to know where these where these guys are guys mostly guys I was yeah I think that the people who really want to know where they are and I think everyone kind of shares that

wanting to understand how many of them are in the neighborhood maybe don't know how much on guard to be but it. Think that some of them wanted to know where they are so that they can get rid of them or know how hard they need to work to get rid of them and get them out of the neighborhood and move the problem somewhere else so that someone else kind of us to deal with the you know the South End has changed a lot in the last 40 40 years it's turned into a much more residential area and Harrison and Albany quarter where I choose where Pine Street in is is located. Used to be considered like a no go zone in a no man's land and it's very residential now and so when people are looking at you know this registry and seeing that it's all close to them. There definitely is that wanting the registry to be there but there were also you know as right Michael Oates was saying some people thought that sex offenders all of them couldn't live near schools or live near parks or couldn't you know live close to families. And those things aren't true you know

those things are we believe them because we see them in the movies and we see them on TV. But there's a lot of misunderstanding of what is actually going on in a sex offender's life and what the laws are regarding sex offenders and what they need to do. I think that's scary I'm going to take this call I'm going to come back to you Linda. Carrie from Pawtucket Rhode Island Go ahead please you're on the Gallic rosily show. Well hello. Hi I'm a mother of two and I have had one opinion where when I before I moved to this area and been here three years I wanted to know who were the sex offenders and where my two elementary school aged kids. But I found out there was one three doors down from me actually. And I talked to the neighbor and I asked because nobody had talked to me for over a year. I said So what's the story with this guy that lives over here he's a registered 3 sex offender. That concerns me. I see him out with the neighbors playing with

kids playing basketball. He's probably in his I guess late 40s. Then I got a human story to the face that I saw on the computer and. Maybe change my thought So this week not completely but just that here's a person when his ascent was done he was 18 years old and he dated a girl that he was another race and he got you know in trouble got arrested. So on and so forth but now he's in his 40s and he did his time and he lives with his father and he's trying to do work on the side. He has trouble getting a job but he's very friendly. I just think we label people in society and yes I teach my kids to be very vigilant I'm out there with them. But my thing is. We get the whole group the society we label. And but we don't put a human story to a human face and we just you know OK let's stay away. But you know OK that person has this label their offender and then you

really do you really cut yourself off and that person just doesn't get back into society. So I saw. You carry so if you think if more people understood as we've been saying you are exactly who. Sex offenders are likely to re-offend with if they re-offend. And the fact that many of them are just trying to trying for the second chance that there may be a different kind of public response to sex offenders living in the neighborhood. I would definitely definitely and I think in the long run we need to teach our children how to be smart and we need to as parents be there to teach them that you know you don't just judge people on labels but you let their words and their deeds and have them continue in society if we cut them off. And there's a whole human population we're just you know saying sorry you don't get a second chance everybody else does but not you. All right thank you very much for the call. Thank you. Terry on the MassPike. Go ahead please you're on the Kelly Crossley Show.

Thanks Kelly. First I just want to say that as usual you have the best public affairs show in Boston with the best guest you can the best. Well you know you got my check. Thank you so much. An attorney and I represented a few of these and say these people there have actually been quite different from one another. And I just want to echo some of the comments and add to them. I think one of the things people have no idea how easily someone can slip into being a level three sex offender in this state. I had a client who had a sexual encounter with someone his own age and ended up being classified as a Level 2. And there that I consider that case dubious in itself but in any case it was possible it is a level two 19 years old. And then because a family member for good reasons insisted on having testing for marijuana use placed on his probation because he tested positive for marijuana. He is now a level three sex offender in the

state. People have no idea that that that that can. Happen that some of the people who are label level 3 and you know frankly I have I have a lot of nieces and nephews and I would still want better if I knew that somebody who was Level 3 was really dangerous and then therefore they would be able to be tracked because if if everybody's a level 3 you're not really tracking the truly dangerous people. What should does what should the state do or what what how do we resolve this issue we have this this what some are describing as this legal loophole where the level three sex offenders can register in homeless shelters because they're homeless you know and and we have crowding there Linda Downey can't can't accommodate all of them and neighbors are nervous what should happen in your opinion and I certainly understand why neighbors Reeves would be nervous I used to live just two blocks from Princeton myself. But but the thing is. Well what should be done first of all people should realize that that in some states what they do is they just they do nothing and these

almost people end up living on the street under over under under overpasses like in Miami. Which is not what I think most who would agree is not a solution. And what happens is if you just say that they can stand on the shelters what they end up being thrown back in jail usually which some people might say is great because there might be good for them. But again. People don't realize how easily someone can end up being classified as a level three. And I just maybe one suggestion would be what would they do in Scandinavia. I think they would have places that were homeless shelters where not necessarily you exclusively having sex offenders live there. But maybe there's some state resources should be put into having at least a skeletal network of think three by region places where at least it was a place of last resort for someone to stay that would be one suggestion. OK thank you very much Terry for the call.

Thank you for everything you do. I really can't think about you know how well thank you so much. I say if the listeners were at 8 7 7 3 0 1 8 9 7 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70 give us a call or write a comment to our Facebook page or send us a tweet. Lydia downing president of the Pine Street in what resources could help you here is adjust their limited beds and you know there's it in the current situation there's nothing that's going to really make a better situation for you as you try to serve the homeless population. Well I would say for this group in particular housing would be an enormous benefit. We all know that the more stable people are the less the less the that that lessens the risk of re-offense. That really is what gets you public safety on this issue from all the research and I think the professor talked about that earlier. Housing some kind of support services and support services that match the research that say you know if you give this particular kind of intervention and housing for these folks do you get a lower lower if re citizen rate I think you do if you look at the research. So I would say the state could really start to think creatively about how do you get these people to a stable

place. How do you engage them in treatment with really an end to public safety that would help a lot. Then we'd have some place to refer them to. Now let me ask you also we've talked with Caite managing editor of the South in news about the community reaction. How about the community of your homeless clients. How do they feel about the sex offenders who may have to register and be there for a while. Is there any pushback there. I think there is sometimes but frankly I think you know obviously a lot of people are homeless don't have a whole lot of choice. They don't feel that they have many other options and so even when people are worried about it Cali they don't have housing they don't have another place to go. If they did they would be in shelter to begin with. So sure we hear it sometimes from some of the other gas. But frankly everybody's options in this case are are limited. Speaking of resources Professor Carlos quote of us. What about AGP s tracker tracker. Now I've heard that there are some of these level three sex offenders just a very few

have them that you know from the outside from those of us who know nothing that seems like hey that's a good solution. I don't know how expensive it is. Is it effective. Well I'll put you this way because I mean I think that the tracking has become sort of a popular intervention in the criminal justice system and I think there will be cases where it actually is effective and it is another mode of sort of monitoring this individual's but I'll put it this way also do treatment of these individuals have a group of guys a number of them have the GP s units all of those guys committed offenses against somebody they knew most of them did it in their home. So having the GP is tracking. Makes sense from the standpoint of a here's another monitoring device. But when you think about how does that connect to the actual offending. For a lot of them it doesn't seem to make sense and I think it sounds good but I'm really not sure we have anything that shows us that it's effective in a way that we would like it to be. But as we've said part of this is you know psychological and people's comfort level

so representative. I just want to add that we you know in August of 2010 we passed a core reform bill. You know the governor signed it and in that bill we had a requirement for all registered homeless sex offenders that are registering homeless to where GPL system the Supreme Judicial Court in September threw that out as unconstitutional among other things. And it was it was mainly because of if they're doing their you know doing their time this seemed as a an additional. Necessarily an unusual cruel and unusual for them to have to go through you know after having served their time. Judges can still you know individually put on you know a tracking system for X amount of time but but it's but the you know the courts ruled as that is not something that they should we should be doing full time. Well let me just ask this before we go to break. How much does this cost because we have to think about that too. We're in budget you know tightening time so you know it is it is it is a it is a cost measure but it is proven in in the probation system as a whole to be something

as opposed to having a probation officer continuously check on someone it's it gives it gives another tool and a better mechanism to be able to track where someone what someone is doing and where someone's going to some degree that some members of the community you know going back to the south an issue you know some of the members of the communities would prefer that. But it is it does cost some money but in the end I think that might maybe save some money long term. And we should put on the table that you know tracking the level three sex offender says as much to do with you know where are they with. Also they have to get to their probation officers and they have to get their treatment so there's there's you know several layers to the reason for the tracking. A very complicated issue and it's hard to balance all of the all of the constituency needs in this in this conversation but we're going to keep talking about it. I'm Calla Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show. And we're talking about the dilemma of integrating high risk sex offenders once they've been released from prison into the community without compromising the safety of the rest of the neighborhood. I'm with Carlos quaver us a

professor at Northeastern University School of Criminology and Criminal Justice. Lydia Downey the president of Pine Street and Representative Aaron Michael waits and Kate Vander weed managing editor of the South in News 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. What do you want sex offenders where do what you want to happen here do you do they deserve a second chance give us a call 8 7 7 3 0 1 89 70. We'll be back after this break stay with us. The. Support for WGBH comes from you and from Elsa Dorfman Cambridge portrait photographer. Still clicking with the jumbo format Polaroid 20 by 24 analog camera and original Polaroid film. Online at Elsa Dorfman dot com. That's Elsa Dorfman dot com. And from safety insurance working with independent agents in Massachusetts and New Hampshire to provide coverage for homes autos and business and supporting

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Christan in Rhode Island Go ahead please you're on the Cali Crossley Show. I can hear you fine. At first I mean that kind of a unique position because my brother also has been a resident. At the Bank Street and he was almost by choice and has been acquired brain injury now so is no longer on the streets but I need to say thank you to all of the people from the Pine Street and for what they do. That's completely unrelated but I thought it was interesting that you have the money. So my situation is this. I have a friend in Rhode Island. She's from Guatemala. She came here and marriage element here who had a previous Tran family his wife had left him. He brought her here. He molested her daughter her daughter from a marriage and Guatemala and was convicted. He has just been released back into the community and I have a couple of questions. One of the community here is struggling. If he decides to come back into the

community come back to church. The church has worked out a legal way for him to come in and have services people like but the actual social aspect of it is kind of stunning. People are trying to deal with how do they how do they deal with him they're trying to forgive him. And my friend actually said to me I'm not sure what will happen the first time we see him and I was kind of hoping maybe some advice. Could be given what do you say to someone coming back into the situation. I missed a lot of anger there's a lot of earth to it. All right hold on one second. Professor Clovis you know I mean without sort of directly speaking to a particular case I think a couple of things to think about. In general the issue of reintegration particularly when you've had the offense take place within the family I think you always need to remember that priority one is the victim. So you always need to remember that whatever you do however you try to sort of help that person reenter to society has to be done in the

way that respects the victim's wishes to either see that person or not whether that victim does you know wants to you know even be in the same place with them so I think that's always the thing to keep in mind how does the victim feeling about it and make that the priority I think the second thing is that this is really the kind of thing where you want to get some sort of support services some sort of therapeutic intervention because you want to have. Sort of somebody help sort of walk you through that process I mean some families sort of just shun the person they're done with them. Some people want to sort of integrate at least have contact with that person the family and I think having somebody who who's familiar with actual violence familiar with working with offenders is really important that you make use of the services to help both you know the victim the victim's family and the offender sort of walk through that process in a way that's going to be healthiest and most protective of them make them who's really the top priority in this kind of situation and this is back to your original point that most of these offenders offend people they know. Yes. Yes and it's not going to be uncommon for this to be something that

people have to struggle with. OK Christiane. Yeah the second thing would be and I may be I mean this victim is gone now she's back in Central America. The mother has moved to another state. This sort of alarmed me this is the second part of question. She called and contacted me about a week ago just after she was released and asked that I help her help him by getting him saying he has a no contact order with his family and they are of the mindset that he is not to be dealt with. It's very painful for them. So there are multiple things. But yes the child victim is gone. She's no longer even in the country so she it be. The wife called me from another state and could you please help my husband. You know he no one will help him. His family has turned their back on them. So this is sort of a I mean you guys all know what happens in a larger community then. Yeah my point is she's asking me to help him secretly and not tell anyone and red flags went off of my head and I thought I can't do that and she said Well then don't bother

because no one is helping him. And I thought aren't there agencies that for people who are being really be integrated to find a job and to get clothing and things like that because I didn't feel safe meeting him along so I told her no which was what she said to me is you can't tell anyone else you have to do this alone. Don't tell anyone I've called you. You know this all has to be hush hush right. And doesn't that seem odd to you that he's insisting that he keep this quiet. I'm worried that he's going to try and jump his parole and get to this other state on the other side. Christine I think we got it I'm going to let me let Professor quavers respond to you but I do think that what you're raising is is a microcosm of what a larger community is feeling like how do we respond and what is our what it what is what happens why can't why aren't there other programs and Professor quibbles I'd like you to respond to the fact that in fact there are a lack of reentry programs for these these persons. Yeah no I mean I think you know you often have people who struggle with feeling some some sense of burden to sort of help these people sort of get reintegrated and be of support in

some way and I think to the caller directly and to other people who sort of struggle with this I think you do need to sort of pay attention to how you're feeling about it and make sure that you're doing things that within or within your comfort zone if that's not the case. You know there's a couple of resources where you lease and start getting some information. I know here in Massachusetts we have a what's called the Masters Association the treatment of sexual abusers which provides information has information about treatment providers so on and so forth and make that some of the first step in terms of that's the resources that are out there and it really you know sort of remember that the individual who committed the offense is also the individual responsible for making sure they get access to things that they may be able to get access to. So as much information is out there that's available I think we need to sort of improve that. But I don't think that people need to sort of feel like they need to do something that's outside their scope of what they should do outside their comfort zone because you know that's that's not something they need to burn themselves with. They're not comfortable with that.

All right Josh from Cape Cod Go ahead please you're on the Calla Crossley Show. Thank you. I worked with a lot of people with the social identity disorder that Larry a therapist and a lot of the perpetrators have not been caught and that one perpetrator is molested thousands. Boys and Girls. And he's a fireman. And you know it's just I'm I'm much. Figure on the prevention aspect of teaching these kids how to protect themselves. Teaching is OK to talk to adults and parents about it and a lot of the people who've been through the prison system. I think that they need help too and as a society we're going to put only put a stop to this kind of stuff. We support people exiting prison at the same time. Protect the victims when they step forward. A lot of the help of the victims I've worked with I get

attacked by their families and their society when they start to start talking about the perpetrators. Thank you very much those are very important points to bring up Josh. Thank you very much for the call. So Representative Michael what do we what do where do we go from here I mean what happens now we you know the community has said they're concerned. We've talked today about lack of reentry programs Lydia Downey is caught in a bind Supreme Judicial Court says no. Now what we need to find a way to kind of lessen the burden on not just the community but on Pine Street as well and all the homeless shelters as a whole because you know they don't they don't have the make up to to to deal with the issues that come with you know with with sex offenders within their facilities. Funding is a tough issue at this point in time in the state's economy and you know it might be something to look look towards down the road but immediately we're where we're in a tough bind than where we are going to have to. That's why I think the policy wrote is the is the better alternative at this

point in time in trying to figure out how to bridge that disconnect because you know at Pine Street in Libya can speak to this better than I maybe. But the Pine Street almost half the people that are registering at Pine Street are necessarily staying at Pine Street on you know on a nightly basis. And you know that's what I think scares the community even even more so than the number of pies and frustrates the police and frustrates the police and that that issue is something that we are going to have to try to face and deal with and close that gap. However we can and that's why you know the GPA issue was was an interesting one but you know the courts did rule it out so. So we are going to have to go back to the drawing board. Lydia you stop taking the referrals. At this moment so. So what can we expect in the next months. While everybody is grappling with what can be an appropriate response for the community I mean I want to say that we work very closely with the all day old over neighborhood association and we are I think lockstep with them on this we think it's an undue burden for this neighborhood and

stopping taking referrals will help that we get the numbers down and then we will work with people Cali to try and place the people that are currently with us will work with probation and parole Indio see the re-entry people as much as we can to try and get those folks placed. But what we need a bigger solution than just this and it should be noted the president was not set up to be the reentry program for level three sex offenders. No we're not nor nor were any shelters in the Commonwealth or across the country and I think shelters don't have the resources to do re-entry for this particular group. Kate what do you sense now you've done you know to leave very large pieces for the South in news with Led by some of the public hearings that the public meetings rather that have gone on. Where is the community now emotionally as this concern gets aired out. I think they're still very wary of what's going to happen. They're concerned about what solution is going to be the one that's that's chosen and if they're going to

feel comfortable with it I think that they're still learning what they need to know about sex offenders and they're learning what they need to know about the kinds of treatments that are necessary. But at this point I'd say people are concerned and they're trying to be reasonable and and trying to be reasonable towards Pine Street and toward sex offenders in general but. But they're scared and I think that they want more information and they want changes to come maybe quicker than they can and they can come. Is it your sense that you know you mentioned reasonable several times that this is not it doesn't appear that a community meeting at least where people are whipped up to the point of. So angry they can't see at this point because we spoke we've spoken about the police feeling frustration do in this. Well there's definitely some emotion at the meeting. There's definitely this issue as you know I was speaking with represent State Representative Byron Rushing who's one of its peers but he was saying this is a very emotional issue and the problem with it being emotional is that you get people talking about lots of things that maybe

don't directly affect the issue. So at these meetings there are there are concerns you know what we have a family full of neighborhoods is this kind of crime in the kind of people we should have in this neighborhood you know is this what we want for ourselves but. But I think at the end of the day as a collective the community is concerned with making sure these problems don't continue and if that means you know more support systems and getting sex offenders better treatments than than I think that they'll understand and maybe take this as a chance to educate themselves and their children about what they can do. Professor there is a voluntary program in prison for sex offenders but it's voluntary they don't have to go through it doesn't help anybody to know that certain sex offenders have gone through it or not I don't know if that that is more relieving for people to community is that better. Well I mean it's going to be a help I mean without getting into the details of sort of the baiting around the research I think we generally sort of cautiously optimistic about the efficacy of treatment and reducing

recidivism which is sort of the key the key sort of thing that we care about those treatment programs I think and I've been familiar with some of the programs have been implemented and the question system here in Massachusetts and I think they're sort of very good programs so I think having offenders go through that certainly is going to be a help in terms of you know sort of helping them stay safe one that was in the community. But I think one of the challenges is that shifting from being in a correctional facility to being in a community is a huge transition for these guys I mean the high risk of recidivism for offenders generally the first six to 12 months out. So when you're out. In that tough time when you're having to deal with being homeless and you know sort of try to get things under your feet. It is really a very challenging time so the treatment piece can be helpful but it's only really one page and what really needs to be sort of a much more comprehensive and integrative system that helps not only sex offenders but you know people being released from prison transition back into the community and do it in a way that is both going to be safe and healthy for them and safe for the people who live

who live in that community. Well if you had the budget and had could design whatever program would benefit just at this moment District 4 What would you do. I think there's sort of a couple of things I think would be really helpful to start thinking about doing I think one is. Improving the system by which we transition people out of correctional facilities. So how do we. Because you're right. Pine Street has become the de facto transitional system and that's not their role and you know I give you guys a lot of credit you do a job that I think is incredibly difficult but it is it's not equipped to do that so I think we need to have a more comprehensive transitional system out of the prisons for sex offenders and everybody. I think the second thing that's incredibly important is we need to couple some kind of educational component to the sex offender registry board. I think even people who are sort of knowledgeable in the system look at that and go OK here's a guy that's his picture that's what he did. What do you do with that. You know you really is is is we need to have something there that complements that information says OK here's information like

the things we've talked about today about you know what are the realities of sexual violence what are the things you can do how do you educate kids you know there are programs about sexual safety and educational programs for parents who can be very helpful in helping parents teach their kids OK you know you got to tell me something does somebody does something you don't want things like that. And then I think you know the last thing is. We have to try and balance the emotionality of this issue with some of the sort of you know research that we know about what can and can't be effective. It's an emotional issue that's unavoidable but I think we need to remember that in the sort of emotion that goes with this we need to step back and say how are we going to make it so that everybody's going to be able to safe to be safe and do it in a way that things will be effective. Well thank you very much. This is just a beginning conversation I know we're not done here there. There are many other avenues to explore and I think each of you for coming in to share your information. We've been talking about the dilemma that Boston faces when it comes to handling high risk

sex offenders once they've been freed from jail. I've been joined by Carlos Quaid us a professor at Northeastern University School of Criminology and Criminal Justice. Lydia Downie the president of the Prine street in Representative Aaron Michael Wittes and Karen Vander wide managing editor of the South in news. You can keep on top of the Calla Crossley Show at WGBH dot org slash tell across like Follow us on Twitter. Or become a fan of the Calla Crossley Show on Facebook. We are a production of WGBH radio Boston NPR station for news and culture.