WGBH Radio; The Callie Crossley Show

I'm soo OConnell this is that Kelly Crossley Show we're exploring the arcane an almighty entity that's been a frustrating restaurant owners for years. The Alcoholic Beverage Control Commission the esoteric organization that issues the coveted liquor license who gets a liquor license isn't based on a neighborhood desire and demand for bars and restaurants. It's determined by population and how deep your pockets are. In Boston it can cost $450000 chump change for a franchise but big bucks for independent restaurants. These laws were put in place in the aftermath of prohibition to keep Bostonians from descending into a life of drunken debauchery. But today are these laws protecting citizens or hurting local businesses. From there we observe National Pizza Month with a look at some of Boston's best places. That's next on the Kelly Crossley Show. First the news. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi Singh.

Images of a blood stained face resembling Well Mark fear being broadcast on Arab television networks spreading the news that the deposed dictator is dead. The BBC's Caroline Hawley says after months in hiding the man who ruled Libya for more than 40 years was killed today when revolutionary forces overran his hometown Sirte. Now that search has been captured we're expecting will thirty's declare the full liberation of the country to declare victory. And that starts a countdown towards a political process that would see democratic elections here within two years democratic elections up to 42 is a dictatorship. That's the BBC's Caroline hall. Many Libyans are hailing Gadhafi's downfall honking their horns and firing their weapons into the air and they're not alone. In Cairo Egyptians express solidarity with Libyans who long fought to overthrow Gadhafi. British Prime Minister David Cameron along with French

President Nicolas Sarkozy were among the first to call for NATO's support of the Libyan rebels. Larry Miller reports from London the Cameron has welcomed the death of Qadhafi Prime Minister Cameron says this is the day to remember all of Colonel Gadhafi's victims not just in Libya but those killed in the Lockerbie bombing and by Northern Ireland terrorists using Libyan supplied explosives. People in Libya today have an even greater chance after this news building themselves a stroll and democratic future. I'm proud of the role that Britain has played in helping them to bring that about. Cameron buck domestic opposition to commit the British military to supporting the rebels. He says Britain will now help the Libyans who've liberated their country. For NPR News I'm Larry Miller in London. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is demanding Pakistan step up the fight against terrorism within its borders. In a news conference in Kabul she delivered a blunt message that the Pakistanis must be part of the solution.

And she said Islam abad must make clear to the militants. We are going to fight you. And we are going to seek you in your safe havens whether you are on the Afghan side or the Pakistani side. Clinton is leading a very high level U.S. delegation to Islam a body to make that case. She said it is imperative the U.S. Afghanistan and Pakistan cooperate and Pakistan she says bears much of the responsibility. At last check on Wall Street the Dow Jones Industrial Average was down 43 points at eleven thousand four hundred sixty one. Nasdaq also down more than 1 percent at last check at two thousand five hundred seventy seven as simpy 500 also sliding down four points. It's it one thousand two hundred five. This is NPR News. The host of a public radio opera show nationally distributed by NPR is drawing criticism for her involvement with an offshoot of the Occupy Wall Street

protest group. We have details from NPR's David Folkenflik. Lisa's Simeoni is host of the show NPR world of opera and has been acting as a spokeswoman for the Washington DC group. October 2011 NPR bars employees from political activity and says it takes the matter very seriously. But the incident reflects the complicated nature of the public radio system and the charged political climate. For NPR Simeoni is not employed or even paid by NPR she is a freelancer for W Devi a North Carolina member station that focuses on arts and cultural programming Simeoni says she's puzzled by NPR's concerns given she is not involved in any news coverage. General manager Scott Nolan said he's working with NPR to resolve the problem. But he noted his station's mission differs from that of NPR News. David Folkenflik NPR News. European debt inspectors are recommending 11 billion dollars more in bailout loans for Greece. But they say that still may not be enough to stave off default.

These officials from the European Commission and the European Central Bank sent a report to German lawmakers today in which they said private creditors should take bigger losses on the Greek bonds they hold. President Obama heads west next week to stump for support of his jobs plan and his re-election. A White House spokesman says the trip also includes a late night conversation with Jay Leno of The Tonight Show on NBC. The president's scheduled appearance next Tuesday will be the fourth time for Mr. Obama. I'm Lakshmi Singh NPR News Washington. Support for NPR comes from CIT for last selling all callers of the Herman Miller air on chair online including sit for a last true black online at CIT for last dot com. Good afternoon I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly Crossley This is the Kelly Crossley Show this hour we're examining the arcane entity that's been frustrating everyone from restaurant owners to local politicians to folks trying to go to restaurants

to I'm talking about the Alcoholic Beverage Control Commission which gives out liquor licenses and joining me today to help us understand how this organization works are Jack Connelly and Alderman at large for the city of Somerville. Patrick Doyle the executive editor for Boston Magazine and Charlie Perkins who's president of the Boston restaurant group. Welcome to all of you to take over. So I'd like to start with with you Patrick to talk a little bit about the sort of if you could give us a primer on exactly how this liquor license scheme this pyramid scheme if you will works here in in the state by state. Look I mean a city by city look as well as a state by state look. Sure I'll do my best. You know after Prohibition a number of blue laws were passed nationally you know this is why in certain states you still can't buy alcohol on Sunday it's why you can't buy I believe alcohol before noon in Massachusetts one of those laws that is still on the books is that the

ABC. Hands out liquor licenses based on a quota system based on population. So you have a city like Boston largest city in the state has the most liquor licenses but it's also restricted. You know Boston's a huge tourist center. You have so many commuters coming in daily. It's really a you know restaurant Center for the states but they can't have any more of their licenses per capita and a much smaller community. What happens when you have this is that kind of creates a market for their licenses in that if I own a restaurant and I have a liquor license it can be worth up to hundreds of thousands of dollars to sell it to a new restaurant owner. It's kind of a bizarre system that creates. And how does it change from from the old days I mean I know obviously that things have certainly gotten more transparent and hopefully a little bit cleaner although certainly in the senator Dianne Wilkerson. Graft case the liquor license issue was rearing its ugly head but it would be impossible for some

some retired police officer to want to open a corner bar someplace in Boston these days like we used to do in the old days. I think it's possible. You know you may have to pay a pretty penny to get a liquor license is which you know does stop a lot of small business owners restaurants are a very low margin business. If you have to pay 50 or 100 or $20000 to open up your bar that can really prevent you from ever doing that. And you point out in one of the articles you've written for Boston magazine that it it's also easier for the big franchises and the restaurants with multiple locations to pay that have to fee which could be anywhere from two hundred to four hundred fifty thousand dollars for a liquor license one a small restaurant or chef just starting out may not have access to that kind of cash. Absolutely I mean if you're a large corporation you can drop that kind of money if you are a you know a chef that you have coming up through the ranks and you want to open up a new place where you can get access to all that money in addition to you know your restaurant space all of your equipment

your staff. It's it's prohibitive for a lot of people. Julie Perkins over at the Boston restaurant group certainly representing a number of restaurants who have gone through this of various sizes. What's your take on on the current state of how liquor licenses are obtained. I get a lot of calls for young chefs that want to open a restaurant in a city of Boston. And my comment is not necessarily to them is it going to be in Boston one of most expensive cities in the country you've either got to be a celebrity chef have a killer concept or be a recognized brand. We represented Ruth's Chris Steakhouse we sold a liquor license recently to a del fresco. Right now there are six hundred seventy five full liquor licenses in Suffolk County and three hundred fifty five beer and wine licenses for a total of about 1030 65 percent of full liquor 35 percent are beer and wine. I think the barriers of entry in the city it's it's expensive. Typically restaurants will sell for a multiple somewhere between 30 and 40 percent of sales. Most businesses are sold with the

expectation of future earnings. Unfortunately with the restaurants very difficult to really qualify or quantify what the bottom line is. If a restaurant is doing a million dollars in Brookline it'll sell for 300000. If it's doing a million dollars in downtown Boston because of the cost of a liquor license will go for about five. And I think folks probably don't need to understand on a day to day basis is the margins in the restaurant business from my understanding are as you mentioned very slim and that the cost of putting the food on the table is only really 30 percent of the entire cost of what they have to do and that the liquor and the sodas which are in some ways just we may look at as a throwaway we might just want to you know get a soda with our dinner or a beer or mixed drink. But that really is the way that the profit is generated for most of the businesses so it's not just about good food brings the folks in or or a good chef. They also have to be good business people and understand where they can make the most profit margin. Correct. Right. I think the big if a full service restaurant typically does 75

percent food and 25 percent beverage a sports bar will do about 60 percent food 40 percent beverage and a bar or a pub an Irish pub if you will. There are typically 30 percent food 70 percent beverage. Food is an accompaniment to a meal. But the bottom line on a full service restaurant 10 or 12 percent you're doing a good job. And some of these Irish pubs I do a lot of appraisal work for divorces partnership separations or just whatever. I just recently appraised a pub doing three million dollars in sales and their bottom line was 20 percent 25 percent was about one hundred seven hundred a hundred thousand dollars. So the profitability factor typically food is you spend 33 cents of every dollar to buy the food for spirits and liquor it's about 25 cents. You're listening to the Kelly Crossley Show on WGBH Boston Public Radio. Jack Connelly you're from Somerville you're a store you were raised right in through the blood there. You've seen this issue of alcohol and the

effect it has both positive and negative on the community talk a little bit about sort of where you started in viewpoint of liquor licenses and alcohol being served in restaurants and where you are now you could go on for a couple hours you know we could go you know here's the story that I started in the 1980s 1984 and at the time liquor licensing so it was pretty much a closed shop. They established pubs and restaurants had their licenses they pretty much renewed. There wasn't a lot of interest then. And quite frankly there was a lot of enforcement. I uncovered some problem places that was state staying open way beyond. We had to get a whole issue of discipline. Long story short that issue was resolved new commissioner a new sheriff in town. The climate change pretty quickly. Fast forward to the fact that the T opened in 1904 as well. Now somebody came to be addressed specially Davis Square which is my area. We've seen the reemergence of Davis Square is one of the premier places in Greater Boston for restaurants and for a is essentially a second shift.

A lot of having to do with the quality restaurants that decided to purchase and do their right now as Charlie was able to point out some of the commercial planning all the work that the mayor and all of us city government have done. I have now focused on the emerging small restaurant. We have Ethiopian restaurants we have Tibet and we have Nepalese restaurants. These folks can't afford to buy a 60 to 100 thousand dollar license. So what we've done and some of it was recently we passed a whole new petition that's now gone to the State House that would allow the city to issue like our compatriots in Boston in Cambridge in unlimited number of non transferable restricted licenses for these small startup businesses who don't have those big dollars to buy Legal Seafoods can come to assembly Square. They can buy that's a cost of doing business they can open up right away when they're ready. But we want to help the small business owner operate which a key to the neighborhood development that we've seen we plan for throughout the city. Now when you say explain a little bit about what those licenses would be would they be different from what they'd be able to sell them later if they were not is transferable.

So if I open a restaurant I buy the I get the liquor license. And when if I close my eyes to my restaurant like I said O'Connell's cafe would be open for two or three years and that's going to come back to the city of Somerville. Maybe it'll stay on the shelf. Maybe it will decide to put a retail store in there but because of our centrally our our neighborhood oversight all of our elected officials particularly the ward all the men pay very close attention the neighbors get involve with the social media these days. There's nothing left we have many meetings and discussions before an applicant even gets final consideration so usually this is with the consent of the neighborhood particularly of big news here now and some available one beer and wine license that was available. Was was vetted there were three or four of wonderfully good applicants and Frank McClure and his group from Les Paul you are about to purchase a building that based on this license. It occurred Monday night so we're going to see a big plus on lower Broadway with a terrific business that will be operating there. The license will come back to us for some reason that doesn't work. That's great that's great news it's big big players coming in tough economic times as well you know I worked

in the nightclub business for a short period in Cambridge in the 80s and. Most of the time I was the one that was picked to get up at eight o'clock in the morning and go to the Cambridge education or bar and nightclub owners who had liquor licenses on how to serve properly and some of the ramifications you know this was during a time where awareness of over serving and legal not only the moral obligation but the insurance liabilities and the legal liabilities was really coming into play. You're talking about full training and education as well along with these lights and it's typically in one of the things that in our home rule petition one of the things we insisted on in the education of the new license holders will be not only would they have to be tipped certified for their bar turns etc. but also we want to have them also be educated into what called several kids about prevention the effects of what alcohol and drugs can do to people. We want to make sure that all new licensees will attend a seminar from one of our community organizations that does a specially good job of making people aware of the problems of drugs you know cause that's

part of our new licensing requirements. Well Charlie is this something that a group like yours would support would get behind this is so much a great idea. You know one of the problems is with these Home Rule potations and everything we notice at Newburyport in Salem Massachusetts and Burlington that if I paid a hundred thousand dollars to buy a license and my next door neighbor comes and gets one for free so it's not a level playing field in Dedham. They've added seven or eight new liquor licenses and legacy place legacy place restaurants are on target to do 40 million dollars in sales this year. Patriot Place the same thing they have their own target to do about 45 or 50 million. So you've got 90 million dollars in new sales it's just devastating a lot of the independents I think especially in Boston some of these restricted licenses there. We have a restaurant for sale right now where the license is restricted. And it's we're really wrestling with what to do with that location. I think it's certainly in New York City they've got 25 full liquor licenses and you can just apply for one and you know if you're

in the you know it's who if you do well fine if you don't you're here is going to be out of business but the cost factor in Boston right now a liquor license sell for about $250000 a beer and wine license is selling for about forty five. So it does restrict the young chef from going in there. I'm Sue O'Connell and we're talking about what it takes to get a liquor license in Massachusetts from the history of the corruption to how these laws affect our cities towns and small businesses will be back after this break. Keep your dial on WGBH Boston Public Radio. At the. WGBH programs exist because of you. And Merrimack Repertory Theatre presenting this verse business by A.M. Dolan's

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seven WGBH. Hi. I'm Brian O'Donovan. We're always pleased and a bit humbled to hear that a Christmas Celtic sojourn has become a holiday tradition for families all over New England this year. We'd like to invite you once again to join the festivities we're bringing the show to see others all over the area from New Hampshire to Bedford and many points in between. With music dancing all manner of surprises. WGBH members get your tickets at a discount. For more information visit WGBH dot org slash Celtic. I'm biopsy this afternoon on the world. What the killing of Moammar Gadhafi means for the Middle East the Arab Spring and for the future of Libya itself. The world produced here at WGBH this afternoon at 3:00 and again at 6:00 only on eighty nine point seven WGBH. Welcome back to the Kelly cross Lee show I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly. If you're just joining us we're talking about what it takes to get a liquor license in Massachusetts we're

looking at this process and how it affects our cities our towns and our local businesses. I'm joined by Jack Connolly alderman at large for the city of Somerville. Patrick Doyle executive editor for Boston Magazine and Charlie Perkins president of the Boston restaurant group. Patrick I want to talk a little bit about the corrupt history and nature of of the liquor license in general certainly not something Boston's had the market cornered on but what are some of the more egregious things that you've discovered in some of the writings you've done on this topic for Boston magazine. I cannot believe you're saying that Boston has some kind of corruption in its history that is shocking shocking shocking. You know I think goes back to the earlier point when you have this vast sum of money being exchanged for these liquor licenses it's going to invite corruption. It's how you know State Senator Diane Nichols requests and got taken down as well as city councilman Charlie Turner. You know Bing is going to happen when you have that much money.

But in some ways you know this is sort of the folks on the ground taking what they need to do to get forward in business if you've got big companies coming in big franchises being able to sell this this large these these licenses for big bucks and then you have some little tiny club owner who just wants to open a corner business serve a couple of beers and wine and maybe a mixed drink. You know what how many avenues do they have under this corrupt system to go forward you know it's corrupt just by the nature of the way that it exists without ever having to break any laws. Sure I mean I think I wouldn't say it's corrupt in the first place I think the corruption happens because it's a very restrictive system. It's not easily accessible. And that's where the corruption comes in for sure and you know I guess people see this is the only way they can open up their restaurant. The only way they can open their bar. It's what they feel like they have to do. You know Bob I don't think Boston has this great terrible reputation as the No Fun City. You know whenever you have folks moving here and find out what time the bars close and what time the restaurants stop serving food and what time the tea stops running and we all have very

valid ancient reasons for why all these things happen. But this just does tend to send a message to Certainly the new young chefs we have one of the Top Chef contestants who's opening a barbecue place up on Massa have been in the south and then there's all sorts of things rolling in the south end of Boston about what's opening what's not opening but there's really kind of sends a message to young business people who might want to open in the city that it's harder than than most. Sure I mean just so many of these laws and restrictions are very old. Obviously Boston. Cameron Somerville has changed dramatically over the past since you know prohibition ended in 32 or 33 it was you know it's changed in the past 20 years. Jack was speaking earlier about kind of the revolution in Davis Square into this dining hotspots. I think it's just time for the ABC to reassess its laws or restrictions and try to come up with a more common sense solution to today.

Charlie Perkins is that is that something you think that will happen is the ABC ever going to be in a position where they're there they're open to changing their rules and is that something that they can do or something that the lawmakers have to do. I think probably the lawmakers that's why a lot of the young chefs are not opening in Boston that's why they see Brookline Newton some of these other communities as being more more friendly also has a reputation up and we had four or five companies go public in 1980 we had Pizzeria Uno in the balls and chicken. Charlie stark as ground round and one other one I can't think up for years the outsiders were very tried to avoid boss and the problem with the city is the rents are very high constructions very difficult very expensive and licensing and permitting and of course the value of a liquor license. So it's kept a lot of the chains out outside. We didn't really see the chains coming in until the mid 80s. A lot of the chains had their IPO in the mandate from Wall Street was to open up new units. But

especially in downtown Boston a lot of the chains. Some do well but others just stay out of the weeds but 99 cent Commonwealth Avenue years ago. I think they closed after six months just was in their market and Jack and Somerville of course being one of the cities that's that's being more welcoming What are some of the steps we we talked a little bit during the break between ourselves about the role of the community organizations and neighborhood groups and helping restaurants to do the right thing and get a liquor license at the same time is that part of the mix that you're seeing happen as soon as part of our overall strategy from that may occur. Tony when oftentimes when a restaurant will say gee Mr. Mayor would think about coming to town. First thing I say I would say it sounds like a good concept I guess what you're going to have to work with all the men so and so in that neighborhood I suggest you have a community meeting. We have an economic development team in the city who will work with you to give you details about that neighborhood. What you might do once you meet with them start planning. So this may take a couple months to get to that point a neighborhood meeting will occur. If you were thinking about opening a restaurant I'd like to maybe buy a building and put this type of restaurant What do you folks think.

What about parking where you're always going to be. All those things will occur most of the time prior to any application for the license. Place and so right now as it is about to open that the neighborhood is excited about it took two or three months of meetings with neighbors and the local ward guy down there build a road spend a lot of time with the neighbors by getting details. So when he came to the city license authority which is that extremely well vetted here in Somerville we make sure that it's done right. The ABC essentially is a throwback to a bygone era. Once we do the approval we have to wait four to six weeks for them to respond and then OK what we know is a good thing. You see how many inspectors they have for state wide reviews. I handful so basic it slows the process down. We think as our compatriot communities we can do a much better job on our own and will be certainly vigilant ourselves BOTA vigilance neighborhood watch groups will be all over these licenses if they're not operating well. Charlie the Ken Burns documentary prohibition has really been

enlightening to many folks about our very our country's very complicated history with alcohol and I'm not really sure that there's another country preparing for the show trying to think of is there another nation that has this complicated very difficult relationship with alcohol I mean you think of Euro Disney where they serve beer and wine quite openly and the difference is in the way that children are exposed to to alcohol in the home and wine in the home and beer in the home. And this this of course being Boston with our long history here in the states sort of building the way that things were going to be done across the country. But this is just another example is it not of our complicated relationship with with alcohol. Yes it is. I will say this I believe in Ocean City New Jersey a seasonal license sold some years back for $800000. So it's not necessarily just post Yeah but about for America I mean in general that it's you know the idea of sitting down and and having a decent glass of wine with your meal has to come at such a high cost and. Sort of our denial around the effects of alcohol feed

into our inability to deal with it. I think another thing I've been reading in the newspaper about with the casinos opening up in the happy hours and most of the opposition is coming from existing restaurant owners that don't think it's right. Go back in the happy hour days I guess in the 80s and everything that's that's I'm sort of quite frankly I was surprised to see that they didn't consider it. Well I mean the happy hour I was in the clubs at that time and you know I remember our happy hour used to be on the Fridays we had a lot of be you students that Molly song right now have and you know it was like it was like one o'clock in the morning by 7:00 p.m. right. But then they all went home and went to bed and I think you probably get the city cleaner in one way. You want to you want to jump in here would you have been sued because my full time professional in the insurance business and I do look a liability application you know all the time virtually one whole page ask a description for a pub or restaurant or a tab and whether they'll be bouncers what they're always operation entertainment. Will they be happy always and around the country there are a lot but not here in Massachusetts. We look at from insurance perspective. Are you going to

essentially buy a problem by buying insurance because there have been many instances happy hours of driving under statutes being what they are from an insurance point of view it can be a liability. Thankfully it's not a problem we have to deal with right now but the casino issue was certainly opening that up. It's something I think the insurance industry is proud about but for Massachusetts I think right now it's going to be a topic of lively discussion. As Charlie said I don't think our restaurants and pubs who are all seem to be doing pretty well in summer when anything to do with it because they know their patrons they know they draw. They don't want to be drawing from the unknown. And the definition of a happy hour is just that you're allowed to offer discounted you know the price two for ones and discounted rates and pictures and you can't do that otherwise unless it's not on the menu. So it's really just discounting alcohol to a draw. Yeah bring people in. Yeah. You want to jump and you look like you want to jump in. Oh yeah. I think the this happy hour discussion is pretty interesting. You know it was passed I believe in 84 and it was because there was kind of a rash of

very tragic drunk driving incidents. I really think education has increased since then. The law has gotten much more restrictive Thankfully for punishing drunk driving. You know we've got a pretty strong public transportation system in Boston and I think a lot of people use you know our drinking culture has changed as well. You've seen a rise of craft breweries across the area. You know in Massachusetts and New England and you know around the country you've seen a rise of vineyards so I think the happy hour is definitely worth revisiting as well especially in light of the fact that casinos are able to offer free drinks. Why shouldn't. Your cafe be able to offer a discounted glass of wine. Well we also I mean to both those points when we went to the allowing liquor stores to sell liquor to the open on Sundays for a long time it was just you could open on Sundays between Thanksgiving and the Christmas holiday and then it went to

every Sunday and many of the small mom and pop stores didn't want to open on Sunday because they didn't have the staff for it. You know so you get locked into these old ways of doing business because of the laws and it corners you out of sort of a logical idea that you would want to open on Sundays. You know so I don't know what's going to require happy hour you know. You know have to have it again after we have heard of this we're not going to make you not especially in Boston and Jack and the other fascinating thing which I think people don't get ARE WE ALL those of us who live in the suburbs have because this is where you bring your own booze and you know I have a sushi place we frequent a lot you have to bring your own beer your own bottle of wine with you. But you know you've got to. A stark example or two in Somerville one place at a liquor a liquor license and one didn't and one thrives and one goes out of business. So it's really a make it or break it where theoretically you would think if they both had a liquor license they most both might be doing OK. Well see right now we have restaurants that don't have any liquor that are making a go of it

because they have a wonderful product they're very poppy in their neighborhoods yet they have to compete with the Brooklyn Bridge in the Boston zone are concerned as a city thanks to Allah going to research and planning to make sure we give that little operator an opportunity to compete by having the beer and wine at it and it's as we say and sell nothing to nothing it's not for free. License fees will be charged every year but it gives them an opportunity to compete. There's so many problems with the brown bag not to mention from insurance but if you but bring in your own just creates a whole host of problems. Cities and towns don't do it so we it's not an issue of friends so it's not allowed period. Get a license. Who benefits the most from these high prices. The liquor licenses I mean I've always thought in you know secondary education and college is that as soon as the government said that you could get these great Pell Grants and these loans that the prices went up at colleges is there someone who is really benefiting or a group of people who are benefiting benefiting from keeping the liquor license cost up high.

It's an asset that that's appreciated. I mean I believe in the 80s there was no charge for licenses for a little bit in Boston they were way over their quota. But in the Back Bay a license goes for four hundred fifty thousand dollars. Recently a restaurant got a free shuttle a restricted license. That's huge I mean if I had paid for 50 some I got one for nothing. I think in Reverend talk about Jack with the beer and wine license. We go out with another couple my friend likes to have a gentleman like if it's a beer and wine license they're probably going to not go to that location so you are at a disadvantage sometimes with with beer and wine whereas a chef usually a chef it's more about the food and beverage is an accompaniment so that you can be happy with a beer with a beer and wine license but others it is important for what you know it is if it's important to point out that when you've said it a couple of times but you know it's sort of like folks buying a house you know for an open rate for the high rate and someone comes in and buys an equally nice house next door to you for a lower rate and that just by the nature of it devalues your your asset so if you have

someone who's come in maybe not a franchise but just an independent chef or an independent restaurant owner who has purchased this $300000 liquor license it does make it someone an unfair advantage to the person who comes in with a lower rate and then they have an asset that they value so it's not just a one size fits fits all answer here. Prices we sold a liquor license to one of the restaurants just open a chain restaurant of the seaport and they paid two hundred fifteen thousand. It's all supply and demand. I think right now I've got somebody looking at will pay 250 but the licenses that are available are asking 275. I saw in the paper the other day three hundred. That's a lot. It all depends where you are in the Bell Curve. If you've got a lease you don't want to lose that location and you get up commit you don't want to take it without a license. I might pay three hundred thousand dollars just because that's what the market is a good time there any disqualifiers for folks who are buying like a licenses I mean are they they have to match a certain profile of you know no criminal activity are

you just jumping for everyone. If I'm looking we just sold a restaurant in Davis Square. I have to I make an offer the offer is accepted. The next step is to meet with the landlord and get his approval so we come to terms. Then I'm going to go in front of the neighborhood association present my credentials what I'm going to do who I am why I'm going to be a good good neighbor and then I make an application for the liquor license transfer and it's a form that usually you should have an attorney fill out. And I go I have need a copy of a lease and a copy of the purchase and sale agreement. I make an application. They notify the voters for 10 working days. Then I go in front of the neighborhood the selectmen or whoever and the licensing board. And make my application and then from there it goes to the state A B C C and what they're looking for is where the money came from. And if I'm a landlord that's got a percentage lease they want to check me out if they want my financial statements too. That's that's relatively new and it concerns some of your investors that don't necessarily want all that information all right. But it goes to the

ABC see and it's taking now because the inspectors seem to be a little low on the number. It can take anywhere from six to eight weeks. So Patrick what what's your view from the sort of Boston magazine following the story for a long time viewpoint. Are we moving in a better direction with the liquor license assignments or or we've been sort of looking at it for the first time and shocked at what we see. I think we're slowly moving in the right direction you know if your community is like Cambridge kind of. I opened it up there. They no longer have a restriction according to the state for the number licenses and they're able to do it based on their home rule. And what do you see and you see in a flourishing restaurant community in Cambridge that's amazing. Jack is trying to do that in Somerville some are excited to see how that happens and you know what that means down the road. Well thank you all for coming in and educating us on this arcane and crazy law. One of the great blue laws left on the books it's great to get here first but then we have to clean up what everybody did we've been talking about what it takes to get a liquor license in Massachusetts.

Jack Connelly aldermen at large for the city of Somerville Charlie Perkins president of the Boston restaurant group and Patrick Doyle who is the executive editor of Boston magazine thank you all for joining us. You could check out Patrick's article Boston liquor license problem over at Boston Magazine dot com up next. We're slicing up Boston with a look at some of the town's best pizza. Stay with us we'll be right back with the Kelly Crossley Show on WGBH Boston Public Radio. This program is made possible thanks to you and Newbury Comics your pop culture destination for music movies rock shirts and posters comics toys and gifts. With 29 New England locations Newbury Comics for a wicked good time more at Newbury Comics dot com. And Boston Private Bank and Trust Company committed to helping successful individuals and businesses accumulate

preserve and grow their wealth. You can learn more at Boston private bank dot com. And the PBS arts Fall Festival on WGBH too. Director Cameron Crowe creates a definitive portrait of the seminal band Pearl Jam That's Pearl Jam 20 on American Masters tomorrow night at 9:00 on WGBH too. I'm Lisa Mullins. Celebrations in Tripoli today following reports of Moammar Gadhafi's death. I don't think I have any you are right my reaction is completely untrue. How can we get the latest from our BBC reporters in Libya and ask what's next for a nation still struggling to govern itself. Gadhafi Libya and the day's news today on THE WORLD coming up at 3 o'clock here at eighty nine point seven WGBH. The heart is the smallest town in Massachusetts measuring in at just over one square mile. Last month WGBH issued a 2012 challenge. Two thousand and twelve new sustaining members before the end of the year and 89 seven would eliminate the

first fundraising campaign of 2012. For that to happen. This station only needs to hear from Sixteen hundred people or about half the population of Nepal. Wherever you are you can do your part online at WGBH dot org. I'm biopsy this afternoon on the world. What the killing of Moammar Gadhafi means for the Middle East the Arab Spring and for the future of Libya itself the world produced here at WGBH this afternoon at 3:00 and again at 6:00 only on eighty nine point seven WGBH. Good afternoon welcome back I'm Sue O'Connell sitting in for Kelly Crossley and this is the Kelly Crossley Show Well if you didn't notice October is National Pizza Month and we're observing it today with a tour of the town's best pizza. I'm joined by Jacqueline church and Tom O'Keefe. Jacqueline church is a writer she writes about many many many things and being among them she's the woman behind the leather distric or may blog. And Tom O'Keefe is also known as Boston tweet and they're here to

give us a rundown of some of your favorite pizza joints. Welcome welcome welcome. Thank you for having me. I think every month this and I know I know it's hard to top I want to start with you and I've always felt that the love of your pizza is sort of like the love of your music like that what you loved when you were in high school is the music that is it no matter what happens going forward and I can tell you having grown up in Revere on Revere Beach you know where we had three pizza places that we went to we had you know he had his pizza Bill Attias pizza and the one on the end which I never went to because I was down on the Shirley have girl you know I could tell the difference between is pizza and Bill Ashby was a. That you know for me the closest to that is the sort of Papa Gino's chain pizza you know it's not the same but if I have to you know I go for the thin stuff. Do you think that's true do you think it's really thinking through I think pizza is it just depends on where you grew up and where you're from. It really reminds you of where you grew up so I kind of spent a lot of years including a circle in one place that always minds might not be the best but Peano's pizza so you know you know speeds

it reminds me of being young I went to college in our area and even a pizza place I grew up in from my hometown in New York. It just reminds you of home and people will fight to the day. What's your favorite pizza place and no one really will agree there's no you know definitive answer. It's just what reminds us of simple pizza brings us back home. It's just a simple meal that everyone loves pizza. Jagland one of the pizza places this only pizza place I mean there are so many gourmet and fine restaurants now serving pizza as a main dish or as a choice of Pico over on Tremont Street. Which is one of my favorites. Again a very simple pizza that they put forward the margarita pizza is one of my favorites. What is it that's appealing to the folks dining out in Boston that Pico brings. Well I think I have to echo what you're saying about you know passion and pizza if you you know I could write about a million different things this is as soon as I write about a pizza story you get tons of comments I think the guys that slice really are onto a goldmine with their

serious needs column so people are passionate about it and one of the things I like about Pico I agree with you it's one of the best ones around. They have a wood fired stove so to get a good crust The key is really having a high enough heat. We can't do coal stoves in the city of Boston so wood fired is probably the best you can do but they used local ingredients they do a fermented crust so you get good depth of flavor and you get that nice combination between crust and chew like you want a little crisp and a little to go. Yeah it's also on your list. Boston lobbyist Well it was beer pizza and ice cream. I mean I was a wife. Yeah it's very comforting. It's a great great spot because it removes everything that you could possibly Well well-done pizza Neapolitans My favorite there. I love it. Very casual place himself and what about the upper crust. You know I know that they've been in the news for other reasons certainly regarding immigration status and paying taxes and that but you know the first upper crust pizza I had over on trial street I loved and shop to get you know it's like everything else a little bit if it if it expands

sometimes it loses a little bit of its touch Did you feel the same of I like upper crust. I actually love the Charles Street location it's just such a it's just a gritty sort of pizza shop it's also I like pizza a lot there I don't go there as often and I think another one I probably because it's expand his birth to choose which I love their pizza was censored 95 locations people it's not always on their list. But those two places I like a lot. Jacqueline I'm a little bit older than you guys but my daughter you know who's 11 calls her two g's in orders oh maybe I'm not. Cook orders a motza rela ball with karma lies dunya and sausage pizza from. And I think you know I had. I didn't get all that when I was little that is the expanding palette of kids today you know what is that leading us to I mean I'm excited about it when when they have these complicated orders for kids now but well you know if kids are really excited about food I think that's a good thing. And I'd rather have them going to even a chain like a burger to cheese with their favorite

ingredients in mind for their pizza than just doing McDonald's or other fast food so I think that's a good choice if you're going to. You can eat pizza that's healthy for you. What's your favorite downmarket pizza. Oh damn I get you know what what's your what's your guilty pleasure I know that pizza hasn't been lately on your your your your. When I was talking to the producers preparing for today I was like wow this is sort of like phone sex because I haven't had pizza since the dairy allergy. I'm not talking. Down the crying a little flush OK. Actually I could have said you can order pizza without without cheese my girlfriend orders pizza without cheese all the time it's not the same way for you. Kind of like oh I don't know. It's probably a family show I should yeah I know you know I don't want that. Yeah you know I don't know downscale my husband gets a takeout from Ernesto's when I go to town. Yeah that's his guilty pleasure. Yes it was down in the south in the south and Elm Street in the north. Ernesto's right. Yes so north and then there's Emilio is in the oh ok ok i think i know so well sort of north and you know I think it's like double the size one slice is almost to

which one of our old friends used to do his favorite famous double fried pizza where he'd actually fold it and fry it and you know I think it was born out of too many college party. Well we've actually I think you know across the Facebook page we've we've sent out some polling and everyone is voting with their hometown. Hart I've recently moved to Canton and spot pizza in Stoughton where someone recently drove I think fifteen hundred miles up from Kentucky where you know you get a pizza How do you know to have like 20 or yeah you can get in frozen towns that's right and you can take it home and it's also to me it's one of those you have to grow up there because it's not it's not my pizza but what's your favorite gourmet pizza. Oh you know I say gourmet like you know tablecloth. What I've been eating a lot now which I love is Otto pizza in Harvard Square which has really unique toppings my favorite. Last week I was there through torn only the cheese pizza three cheese tortellini pizza which is very good. My favorite there was butternut squash and cranberry pizza which I don't think I've ever heard any other place that has a

phenomenal pizza. It's you can maybe fit five people standing in their takeout tell you that they're great They also have a big in mashed potato pizza really inventive toppings you know I gotta get you I gotta get you come to the leather district. A little plug for my home. Yeah. So reso which is the sister restaurant to which people seem to know more it's been around longer and that's sort of obviously a French story says the Italian sister and they have a really hot. I don't know if it's wood fired or just a really hot pizza oven but they do a beautiful crust it's fairly thin but not crack or thin like Emma's which is also nice but it's a different style. But they do things like a wriggle and spec with a soft fried egg on top which is nice while it gives you a little swiftness and you can't do that she says but they will have Mondays and Saturdays it's half night half price pizzas and Margarita pizzas are only five bucks. So I'm trying to get a right that I'm trying to I'm kind of tempted to come to you know now that you know

you've got I were talking earlier outside that there's so many places American eat pizza not just pizza but that I go out almost every night to eat but there are still thousands of places I've never been to any variety in pizza we were just you know we were preparing for the show. You know I worked at Russo's bakery on Broadway in Revere and when I was a teenager and they have the big repeats. And I had to explain it to everyone. You're making a bet of a Greek style pizza like Bisquick. Well it's actually was made it was a soft crust. Oh you know so and it didn't get hard and it would be a very sweet tomato sauce with a lot of cheese and you would eat it cold of course we were also hung over you know so that made a pizza in this day when I just gave it breakfast as a leftover slice and you can't you know I don't see that many places but we've to go bigger you know and I mean where it's just the variety of pizzas. Yeah it's just astounding. Yeah it has changed. The previous guest we're talking about SOMERVILLE I didn't get to listen to the whole segment did they talk about postal because that's another. Pizza in Somerville. Really. Yeah they have real old style. Kind of been worse.

I don't know what I get. Well well the block from where goggles were getting up to date on our poll. Regina pizzeria is leading me now. Kelly Crossley Facebook poll I was going to say the original Regina's goes back to my old New York days that was kind of it has a real chew. It has the crispy bottom so it has you know it's not going to have you know kind of food ingredient or toppings but for a cheese slice that would probably be my downscale go to Elm Street Somerville. Yes but I don't like the controlling voice you know I think it's Davis Square thing where you say OK but the original Regina's I polled my followers every year and do now. But that's always on top of the list. To that end Centaur POS was in Toronto. Yes Wilson torpedos. I know you see it EVERY was so interesting because it is Boston that's right. You know you're on radio I think entrance into the tunnel and I just wanted to like it. So what you have to grow up liking it. I mean it's just you want talk you have been.

I've never been. So it's all my post favorite places to go. It's an experience like when I I had the opportunity to work in the record business and whenever I had some celebrity rock star in town we would go there you know because it was like a boss. It isn't that. Yeah but I don't know if it would top the best tasting although those are present you had presses in the north and the north and I don't think they're not known for their pizza but they also have a really good pizza and I think the key is really you have to have a really good hot oven whether it's wood fired or coal fired like Angelas out route one has a coal fire. But because they're out on Route 1 so I guess they have different licensing that we have down here. But you get the really good charring that gives you another kind of taste and crunch component. Talk a little. It about what it takes to start you know a pizza place or what you need to know to put pizza on the menu I mean it used to be just a very simple thing. You know I think people are I think people are more sort of sophisticated buyers now so people appreciate Paco because they have really good food and they tell the story of the

local ingredients they tell the story of how they make the crust and the care that they put into developing that. And I think people look for that and for the same reason you get a story you get a sense of a flavor of the place not just the flavor of the pie. So yeah I think that's always been you know sort of go back to kind of what I advise me home. The guys have been working the scene for 50 some odd years and my buddies I went to college with his father when he goes and they remember him for his car. It's just the history it's that local touch it's that I love a lot about the jackal explain. Describe for us what you or your perfect slice of pizza would be I know that you probably you know. I'll be there on the first and it will be a lot of cheese I imagine but if you could have cheese every day it would be you know pizza pizza is definitely one of those things since the onset of this horrible allergy is on I'll be taking donations. Yeah they do a little radio song. So I'm just drinking away in sorrow. You know it's on my last meal kind of menu. I would definitely go out in a blaze of glory and it would be a hell

of a lot of cheese on that menu. But a pizza pie I think you have a really good crust but the crisp and the two I'd like good quality cheese not sort of Sysco food service kind of back to good quality cheeses a nice sauce is a good component. OK would you go with them well a mob to rela Parmesan mixer does it was something more I thought of like a goat you know to love combination of parmigiano reggiano and pecorino Romano. So I always had at home half and half would have us by the house little by little sharp round the edge. And you know if you go to like a New Haven style or you get the classic pet bass or modern or Sally's you know they have like the clam pizza which you can actually do quite well without cheese at all. But Carmel ised onions nice because you get something that's nice and sweet and kind of offsets the saltiness of the cheese. So I think it's really about. You know one day you're in the mood for pepperoni sausage the other day in the

ad for something a little more exotic but can't go wrong with pizza really. How about you tell me your last your last slice in life you know what it really comes down to. I like trying crazy new toppings ping repeats as crazy toppings auto pizza like that. But I think when it comes out a process it's a basic cheese. The one that was made 40 years ago when it was the only type of pizza maybe they free pepperoni on it. I had a basics to slice last week and it's just really it's just still amazing but I do in-between between now and my last slice which is hopefully many slices. You know I try to crazy stuff like penguin pizza they have a corned beef and cabbage pizza which is around. Thank you obviously and as an Irish boy who grew up in corn beef and cabbage just was one of my dream come true that I boiled the pizza. They did it like they boil the corn because they are not really Irish food unless it's boiled to its own old you know you have you know sort of course that is for sure. I got so tired so I boiled foods that you know corn beef wouldn't be too far off from

the pursuit Oh yes I saw that you know nice so it's very salty. It's phenomenal. It was actually I was very hesitant to try it ever since and but it is far from nominal and they do a lot of inventive stuff like that would ultimately has a duck on there and has it was on there I like that stuff it's sort of a meal you could maybe in one slice will totally do it to you but I think it was the last one I would go to that that that traditional that safety wanted to choose basics like you know my my happiest memory I used to go to obviously Revere Beach as a kid and my mother would look at other mothers who brought plums and cheese and crackers for their kids and my mother would give me thirty five cents and tell me to cross the street S5 cross the street and go get a Yoo-Hoo and a slice of pizza and it was just like the best experience on the face and earlier all the other friends were jealous of you. They were they were like I'm jealous you persuading 35 somebody fired inside you you know the best pizza might be the one you make at home too I always like to encourage people to try and cook at home. It's an easy meal to make you can make it with your kids you get a pizza stone so you can get a really nice crisp crust.

You can put whatever the kids like on top of it it's really I actually was at a Columbus Day get together with a bunch of family and everybody did it they made their own because then you're making you can deal with people's dietary issues you know we had a couple of vegetarians and a couple of meat lovers and I was very proud. You can also throw it on the grill. Yeah you know which is a losing breakdown with some oil and put it on the grill and it's a great great little snack that you actually have encountered what Jack was going to be. I actually cooked a piece on the grill. Yeah you can because I mean actually I very rarely go into a place called the kitchen but I have to put it on the ground it's quite amazing. Yeah you can you know you would get that charge that you would have in a Caller Yeah. So what's what what led you to do the writing that you do about food in about about Boston about the restaurant scene I mean obviously you both have a love for food. You know not but we could tell by your svelte figures that you also have a love for health just so that we have a listening audience at home gets a deal but what started you when you know airing your thoughts. Actually I didn't start out as a food and I kind of I eat food so I don't die tomorrow or less. So I'm not a foodie and pretty much you know followers are kind of agree with almost everything I eat is like the

greatest thing I've ever had. Is well I just your a fan. Yeah everything yeah and when I started balsam tree three years ago I was a direct reaction to the market crash and the economy crash it was a way to get people talking about local business and I thought Twitter was the best platform to do that and at the time it wasn't really about food but then I realized over time you know people love talking about I was talking about that's that's what they like it was like when they went for a minute or we'll have to you know. Yeah what do you love the other district that your area so your blog focuses on lots of things but again food is the driving force I started out. I also sort of came to it through high tech you know pink slip after pink slip and the cover story cover letter got very long. But a friend of mine said. You love writing about food you know more about it than most people I know why don't you just do that. Great great. We'll see. We're still figuring it out. Well I can guarantee that I'll be having pizza tonight as well as all of our Kelly costly listening audience and I've heard about you know it's been five seconds after this. So

thanks so much for coming in and taking time to celebrate pizza month October National Pizza Month a little slice a life with us here and right. Well to tweet us about what their favorite slices I met at el de gourmet and a Boston tweet. There you go we've been talking Boston Pizza with Jacqueline church and Tom O'Keefe Jacqueline is of course a writer food being among the many things she writes. She runs the leather district gourmet blog which you can read up on or at Jacqueline church dot com Tom O'Keefe known as Boston tweet you can follow him at Tamaki dot com. I'm soo old Paul I've been in for Kelly Crossley today. Kelly will be back tomorrow and so will I is one of her guests. So thanks so much for joining us. Kelly Krause the show is a production of WGBH Boston Public Radio.