North Carolina People; Julius Chambers, Attorney

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. You know each of us as we live longer has an opportunity to effect change not only in our own lives but in our society. And there's some of us the challenge is greater. And history there are those who have been strong and very intelligent individuals who affected great change and met the challenge with intelligence and grace. Such a person is juist Chambers who sits here with me on North Carolina people deceiving a distinguished graduate of North Carolina Central. That is class and the law school at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill did graduate work in law at Columbia University and is one of this nation's strongest advocates of civil rights. So a real pleasure to have him sit here with me and we hope you'll join us in the conversation for the next few minutes.

In just a few seconds sponsored in part by a Wells Fargo Company helping North Carolina people realize their financial goals. Eight hundred seventy nine. And through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting you in my life I can't say how good it is to see you again old friend and know that you are still very active as you've always been has viewed you goodwife. She's doing fine and I don't know John well hung out as have the 90th birthday years old really well but low that's working. That's great what led you to the law. An experience that I had with my father many years ago when he was trying to get us money together to send me away to school

and he couldn't collect money from him and oppression for him he had done some work and he wanted to find a lawyer. It will bring a lawsuit and found that no lawyer would represent him and sewing leading citizen and my family telling so he couldn't bring a lawsuit couldn't collect his debt and couldn't send me away to school. That led you to start your education at NC Central. Yeah and to come vent and become convinced that I needed to go to law school and to work with others who would be willing to work with minorities and poor people who had need for legal representation. I want our viewers to know that being editor of the law review of the law school in Chapel Hill means that you lead your class you're you know

exceptional piece of work there and you were later chosen for the golden fleece which is the highest recognition of students as a ship at Chapel Hill for all of these great things and when you got your law license and I read that you what I did to this single office would go flat and there you were and there you began and Charlotte and you chose to begin by yourself. Well I don't know about choosing I when I began by myself. An office that I was able to rent from a father of a friend with whom I graduated care at Caroline Mar Johnston and it was it was interesting it was a place downtown and was accessible to people I was trying to represent and I was accessible to the court so it was a great experience

and husbanding of our time I've got to jump around a lot of things in your very interesting career but the first really strong litigation that you got into is an individual case with this one case in Charlotte. That was yeah. What were you defining there for the city of Charlotte. Well we were I was working with us a number of civil rights groups and we were trying to help the Supreme Court decide what Brown really meant in terms of the extent of integration that had to be achieved to satisfy the court's decision and by and large face like Charlotte was question whether one would have to bust students whether you would have to move teachers and staff around in order to get a great staff and teachers.

And we were trying to help define integration in the schools. There was strong opposition to one bussing to moving kids from one part of the community to another. And not everybody was overly enthused that their children were going to have to move and become part of the integration effort. So we felt that and Charlotte-Mecklenburg we had the. Environment and the people involved who would be very helpful. And the court's definition of desegregation. And I'm very sure we had McMillan who was a native North Carolinian very sensitive to the problems that poor people and black people were experiencing and

he was appreciative of the problems that minorities were having in trying to learn and the environment in which they were placed. And I think he became convinced as we augered that there was no way they could be educated on those circumstances. So. We are hearing that it was important to racially mixed roots and shell of my father. And in order to do that we had to transport students from one place to another. And we heard that it was important that all students rich and the poor would be transported. So we had a major decision and there was a question whether the U.S. Supreme Court at that time would accept his ruling. And fortunately the Supreme Court did and it was

a major decision for civil rights advocates and the court in school desegregation. Well it was certainly a defining case. I want to attracted national attention because of the precedent. What was the issue in the great case. There was an effort we undertook to help the court define what Title Seven employment anti discrimination and employment statute meant. Did it mean that. Employers had to eliminate practices that kept minorities from moving into better jobs. Even though there may not have been some intentional barrier that led employers to set up these barriers and Greeks we had a test

and we had a high school requirement. The employer argued that these tests and high school requirements were implemented at a time when they were not intentionally deciding to segregate or discriminate. But the court was convinced that the Congress and acting cattle seven meant to reach those practices that excluded minorities from better job positions whether or not the employee acted with intent. And that became a major issue that still going on in fact. And I think was very helpful and enabling minorities in a number of different jobs to get better job positions and to move into better positions but it was a major decision in the

interpretation of Title 7. I called it. When did you take over the legal defense fund I forgotten a year what it was in 1968. Was that as great an experience as it looked like when you read about it. It was it was great because there I got to work with lawyers and judges and citizens all across the country and it was interesting comparing what was going on in Texas with what was going on and water on North Carolina among others. And I had the opportunity to do it trying to figure out whether Texas or and California we ought to be trying to promote integration of schools and how would we define integration were very challenging questions. So there was a great experience I saw Thurgood Marshall

in the case involving the University and during many many years ago there was such an impressive person in the court room was it like that when you got to know him so well. Yeah it was very impressive very. Persian and I think was very determined to encourage the court to eliminate barriers that excluded minorities and others from opportunity was when he was a very good lawyer and on top of all of that very very good and he had trained there a very good leader and I think Salah Houston under whom he trained helped him tremendously. And understanding how a constitutional role could evolve and would evolve if developed

appropriately with the evidence and. And I'll do it. So he was with another very curious side. I often talk to John Hope Franklin when he was alive about teacher experience is no you. You too got to be great good friends was it. I got the impression he was quite an influence in the brown education proceeding just teaching history to the lawyers because I think what you experienced whether he was a good teacher it was a good teacher but also a good lecturer and made a lot of sense out of the positions that he would advocate. He was great and John had gone through some experiences in growing up. Right. Encourage him to become a father or a fighter like their good marshal to

try to eliminate those practices that kept him from advancing like he wanted to. So he was really to me a great person I really enjoyed talking with him. I miss him dearly but we've had some great people to come through this through this period. You know we also have some great people here in North Carolina hello That was great host you're just using that as an example. She was a great teacher I guess you order. Yeah Association many years yeah. Tell me about the way she influenced the Roosevelt years. She got her voice and there she was a commanding person to say the least. So as you look back over all this experience now. How do you feel about what you see in the country. I first of all them appreciate that we have made a lot of progress and I get upset

when I see that we backtracking quite a bit. I never will forget that I was teaching a class I think it was in Michigan and the student asked me in view of the court's ruling in some cases reversed a number of the decisions we had been discussing and had relied on whether I would go back through all of this again. Well I told the student and this is in the sponsor to your question as well. I don't remember and can't forget what life was like 30 40 years ago. That's exactly right. And I know how we all struggle. Right. And I thought that we wouldn't have an opportunity to do a lot of things that we're now able to do

that. And I know with the progress we've made has been very helpful for all of us and I would go through all of that again to get out of that struggle. Put it well. I want to interrupt or just say that everybody's deeply in your debt to us you you rendered an enormous service to our society and all these years of your diligence and your intelligence your hard work and I want to say that to you now because I really mean it and I've I've been one who's been in a position where I could see in what some of it I was a part with you. And but I want you to know that you're very appreciated and we're grateful for what you've done but I'm like you we've got to keep moving forward in this world. Yes. And more global this country becomes the more that is under constant introspection.

That is true and I know that you have been very helpful then a number of the things that we've been trying to do. And I really appreciate your help and support in that respect. But we've made some progress. We certain dat we all better be proud of. Not too many years ago Brad Spangler called you up one morning and said I want you to be Chancellor of you out my motto was that it catch you by surprise. Yes I did it did it when you were old and good friends for so many years but Dick I thought about that was he was dead right. But it's not a hard decision for you. Move out of the legal practice and go into academia. Someone somewhere that I I think what was interesting for me was I would have an opportunity to

help with the educational programs in my album honor that I really appreciate it. I knew there was a struggle for funds. I knew that we had a problem of who are we that being in CCU would fit in the university system but it at least offered an opportunity to build a university and to bring people together. So I jumped up what I thought your emphasis on scholarship that is here. This is an enormous opportunity to make the most of it. You felt good about that when you in your term Did you know start and should have been. I think everything was great I think was very important to do that and I don't know I what I think is they still doing it and that's great. And the more we can do that the better.

But it was a certain you know wonderful experience for the institution because I happen to be where I could watch that too you know and you know and our mutual friend Jane Nichols is doing several things in our state now or what you're what's occupying most of your time in public service. Well I'm still doing some work fortunately with the Center for Civil Rights that you know NC Law School and I am still doing some work with and I love her all of her. And so that gives me a chance to do you know they'll say most things. I keep in hand keep my hand on mostly schools employment issues and some housing. And I enjoy that. I realize though that I get older than I was when I first started off and I just can't do what I like to look both feel that way.

Yeah but Jean said it and I was telling you about your kindness. Coming up here anything you say will be sure and I ask him about San Antonio vs Rodriguez. That's his current concerns. So what about that case. I think that's a good to me as well as with Jean and a very important case and this one that we're going to have to address. We've just put on the backburner the court in the case decided and they said that it did not violate the Constitution to discriminate against people because they are poor. That's the way it's been interpreted. And growing out of that case we have a number of practices that are to me deplore because we are not educating poor children the way they should be educated we're not providing job opportunities for the poor the way we should be we're not providing

health care among other things. And I gine is heading the Center for power here at the law school. And I think doing a fantastic job that is a major issue and it's one that I've tried to develop when I was Pat in the legal defense fund because I think we need John to take a major effort to convince the U.S. Supreme Court that it should rule that discriminating against people because of their economic status is just as deplorable as discriminate against people because of their race or their age or their their gender. It's a part of this access to legal counsel Jews that are having some way to get to just get some justice and all of us. Yes Dean has. Emphasize

more ensuring that all people would have access to the training who would be able to deal with the complexities of the court and they are complex and they do need attorneys but and we don't provide that many attorneys for people and particularly civil cases civil issues. You see a number of people going to court now with domestic issues. You desperately need legal counsel and we have when in criminal law we say that we are supposed to provide attorneys and we do some of that but we should be doing more. And Jeanne is trying to ensure that under state law as well as the federal law all people would be entitled to counsel. And that's a that's an important issue here. But we have all these people

now involved in foreclosure. They don't have the faintest idea what what is going on. And so it's important to advance the issue that gene is trying and I think North Carolina is making some moves to provide that kind of assistance they really need to do more. We really need to do more in that connection. And I'd like to see him succeed more but I would also like to get the U.S. Supreme Court to decide that discriminating against people because of their economic status is unconstitutional. Well that's you know property rights get into this access to any kind of human relationship. I remember serving on a commission of a North Carolina bar where we were talking about just giving poor people some way to get into court and they had perfectly

legitimate claims. OK you've got a very large farm now and you get to meet with a lot of bright young people in the legal field today. What do you say to your ole years kerja great career. First of all I am not as active with the firm as I want to once I have been trying to retire for all that. Well you know that's not good but I know you're working on it that way. Keeps insisting on I think I would have to do something and I will do something but I do get to meet with a number of the young lawyers I went to an event the other night with a number of the young lawyers and Charlotte I didn't realize we had that many lawyers in Charlotte a lot of us and there are lot of us and to me the question is whether they have the commitment

to get involved with issues that are really meaningful to people and I think that's a question that still dangling out there. I talked with some people the other day. Who really wanted to get some legal assistance and connection with a job they had with the State Department of Transportation. And it reminded me of Joe moody. We had a place called moody when Moody didn't have any money couldn't read or write. This person couldn't read or write. He didn't have any money and he couldn't find a lawyer and I was asking some friends including some of my colleagues what would we do with Joe moody if he came to the

office today. Do we have the lawyers who are already to get involved with him. I would listen to a loony away like we did this. I think the question you asked a question all of us have got to ask about ourselves as we look to our country in the next decade. I wish we had more time. My good friend we didn't get another question as if we'd like to but again thank you for your splendid service to all the people of not only our state but our country. And that isn't what I hope you've enjoyed this opportunity and may one of North Carolina's very experience next week then. Thank you. Sponsored in part by what Kovio a Wells Fargo Company helping North Carolina people realize their financial goals since 1879 and through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting you in TV.