North Carolina Now; North Carolina Now Episode from 04/25/1995

The It's Tuesday April 25th and high taxes and to rural areas in North Carolina now. Good evening I'm Mary Lou glad you could join us on this Tuesday evening. Coming up our Bob Garner will bring us a report on a group of North Carolinians who are angry about what they

call a corrupt court system. They want to establish their own courts. And we'll talk with a Duke University law professor about the feasibility of the group's plan and about civil liberties in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing. Also we're all living in the world of the information highway and tonight we'll show you how students in some of North Carolina's rural counties are becoming high tech. We begin tonight with a court revolt. The investigation surrounding last week's Oklahoma City bombing has reminded us that there are many Americans who feel somehow betrayed by their government. Some to the point of joining groups advocating violence. Bob Gardner reports tonight on a small group in western North Carolina whose members do not sanction violence but do feel the nation's courts no longer offer justice to the average citizen. They say they want to return to constitutional principles and to the common law. Waynesville and he would kill me. Like a lot of other mountain areas they've

always attracted a lot of retirees and a lot of independent minded people. Earl O'Brien qualifies on both counts. You say you've been a slave for quite a while with an authority undiminished by his short stature. This retired Louisiana native addresses an unusual organizational meeting. It's a little ironic that this group of 100 or so is meeting in the Haywood County courthouse since their goal is ultimately to scrap much of what goes on here in favor of something far different. It's part of a growing national movement to institute common law courts. A proposed replacement for a judicial system many believe has become fatally corrupted. This is all smoke and mirrors. There's no substance in this line. What we're talking about is getting back down to the basics. Supporters of common law courts say court corruption grew out of massive fraud perpetrated against the American public in the last 60 years by Congress and the U.S. Supreme Court. And they say that even if that were not so judges and attorneys have collaborated

to ruin the legal system for the average citizen. Some reformers use extremely complex legal research and arguments to try to prove several theories. They say that in a 1938 case the Supreme Court wrongly struck down Common Law which had governed the courts from the signing of the constitution until that time. They assert that in that same year court somehow began secretly and improperly operating under maritime or Admiralty Jurisdiction as evidence they cite the gold trim flags used inside courtrooms supposedly a clear symbol of a military or Maritime Court. They argue there are technically two distinct governments of the United States and that Congress really represents a corporate entity with proper jurisdiction only over the District of Columbia and they claim the separation of powers principle makes it illegal for attorneys to serve as both officers in the judicial branch and lawmakers and the legislative branch. Or as governors or presidents in the executive branch. Furthermore they would nullify all laws and executive

orders resulting from such dual service. All that may give you a headache and make these people sound crazy but you should realize that quite a few men like Earl O'Brien have spent years of study developing these theories. But even discounting all that they say it's clear the present system is out of control. What does lying is about is restoring sanity to this system is going crazy. We don't have to invent the wheel is already here. Now the common low is not only the law of this land. It's the actual government of this land. Heywood is already a conservative enough County that the Ten Commandments are displayed on the court room wall. A court case on that issue is pending. But the common law court movement would go even further reestablishing the Ten Commandments and other biblical law as the basis for an unwritten code to be interpreted by citizens in other words the English common law dating back to the Magna Carta. The rules only come along on made up by the people based on justice

fairness and equality. Now these things are not written in stone. God no man knows all places. They were written by other people in the community to sort of community news Jean Engdahl owns a Waynesville print shop a man of deep religious faith like O'Brien has also been outraged by what he sees as America's moral decline and by a judicial system he believes is collapsing of its own weight. Angel and O'Brien gathered several other supporters to try to explain how a common law court would work. There would be no judges. They believe juries are empowered by common law and the Constitution to decide not only matters of fact but the law itself. There wouldn't be any attorneys either since they feel every man has the common law a right to practice law. And they point out that no state actually grants licenses to attorneys to practice only bar associations which they like into country clubs for lawyers. Twelve jurors would decide what law might apply. What

evidence might be introduced and what settlement or perhaps what Swift or harsh punishment might result is faster. This is cheaper. It's more efficient. It addresses the problems of the people is not it doesn't tie it up into litigation unfolds issues it goes straight to the point. And since nobody is being paid the monetary aspect of it is removed. So the only problem they have is you solve the problem. That's it. Jean Ingalls says that in civil disputes a lot of people would be willing to accept the judgment of 12 of their peers if lawyers were kept out of the process. But what about all the big damage awards juries have been handed out as in the infamous case of the woman who spilled coffee on herself. What would a common law and jury decide in such a case. More than likely if they are 12 individuals with common sense on their shoulders they would say well that's ridiculous. She doesn't deserve any damages maybe get a $50

for a new dress that would be yet. I don't understand a jury awarded something like 2.9 million dollars only because some attorney was able to tell them that that was what she deserved. These crusaders say they're willing to be considered crazy as a consequence of defending their beliefs. And they point out that many American forefathers who are now honored were also considered crazy in their time. Of course developing that reputation could be useful especially if criminals were to compare notes. They're going to look at just lying and as they will let a bunch of people crazy. You just stay out of the Hey would count if you go steal a car don't go to Haywood County those people are nuts. Well we really don't care if they think we're nuts we want to put steel in our cars. O'Brien says the high visibility O.J. Simpson trial has helped win converts. They see that so proper and they say well that's just what happened to me. When they see that this is a real system and that they have. They have a fighting change a real justice constitutional

justice than are going to participate he says there are still a lot of educating to do before the courts actually up and running. So he's hosting a series of informational meetings. What would he say to those who compare him to a hopelessly idealistic Don Quixote tilting at windmills. Well just back up and watch the Constitution with 22 years in the making but they didn't just woke up get that thing go on oh it wants to 22 years and yes we're we're this is a done deal is just putting the plane in a proper place the direct time. Once again we want to stress that the Haywood county's common law court movement condemns the violence. And Bob Garner is standing by now with Duke University constitutional law professor Dr. William Van Alstyne to speak not only about the would be common law court reformers but also about civil liberties vs. security in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing. Thanks Mary Lou. Professor Van Alstyne Thanks for joining us. You've seen now the

legal scholarship at work in this story we've just seen. What kind of a grade would you give. Well I'd like to be more generous but I'm afraid at best it's a D-minus it's practically F. Is there any merit at all to some of these theories we heard mentioned. Very little. A lot of it is just built out of confusion for instance in the one segment of the observation is made that the basic law should be the common law rather than something else. But the fact of the matter is that a great deal of our law is the common law. It's not something else. Typical example is in North Carolina if you get involved in an automobile accident for instance and the parties can't agree as to who is at fault or who is responsible for what indeed they do have to go to court and the law that is applied isn't an act of Congress. It isn't even an act of a North Carolina legislature. Actually it's the law common to North Carolina in the way in which folks have sought to settle these things as juries drawn from North Carolina itself have seen fit to do over the last 200 years.

Still you're hearing from a group that does not feel well served by its legal system and one would suspect that whether they subscribe to these theories or not there are a lot of folks out there like that. How large a movement do you think that might be. Well as a movement I don't suppose it's terribly large but as a national phenomenon I mean just individual people never mind special groups. I'm sure it's enormous. They distaste with the laws as old as Shakespeare from Henry the Sixth where he says Jack Cade in the revolution will kill all the lawyers first. There's a sense of exasperating and I quite understand it and share it in many regard but not for the reasons that the law is one sided or complicated once you get into it for other reasons. One is that we have acted so many new laws particularly at the congressional level in the criminal area that they have pushed aside the opportunity of persons to be heard in a timely fashion in many of our courts in the federal courts for instance just the federal courts. An ordinary civil case in some areas will be delayed from three to five years before you can even get a trial. Well if you're delayed that long then

a person who may have a proper claim in the meantime has to pay their bills it's understandable they feel enormously frustrated. But here most of the responsibility frankly has to be ascribed to Congress's tendency to try to pander to the public's taste to make more and more things criminal. At the national level and be tougher and tougher on crime by mandating harsher sentences. This last time they increased the death penalty from two national crimes to 60 crime. Those cases now so dominate the federal courts that ordinary people civil claims in the federal courts are terribly delayed. They don't staff the federal courts in keeping with the increase in the law so people who have their complaints are understandably very frustrated defendants as well as play that you find some of that at the state court level as well. As we become more familiar with separatist groups patriot groups of one sort or another in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing Do you think there's a need for more federal muscle to

keep tabs on possible terrorist groups and other subversive possible subversive groups. I don't feel quite seriously about it. This is an area which I've tried to study in the last 30 years in teaching constitutional law. The authority of the FBI to investigate is very wide. Now the federal criminal statutes that apply to these fields involving explosives or arson or terrorist groups or anything of this are extremely strong and powerful. In fact if we all even attended this most recent event there was no lag time at all between there was instant cooperation at the state local and federal level. The quickness with which the the air markings on that axle of the band were determine the quickness with which it was traced. Even the quickness with which arrests have been made and the adequacy of these laws this fellow if he is the proper person frankly is now subject to the death mentally twice over. There is nothing lacking I know of in the federal arsenal that would warrant some anxiety. We need still more power in the

FBI. Do you feel though that we might be under some threat to our civil liberties just out in the atmosphere arising from this. I think in all seriousness in the long run we are more under threat to our civil liberties to the extent that we expand the authority of government. Surreptitiously to intrude into our own lives and to monitor all of our activities and to collect data upon us to such an extent that we are made very uncomfortable in modern life as a form of George Orwell's 1984 that it's that sort of anxiety that is more a source of Justified paranoia and my own view than the understandable worry people might have from time to time about crazy people or even about some terrorist groups. The long term threat to civil liberties has more come from an organized to tell it here in government than from these episodes. Very quickly do you feel there's a danger from things like talk radio this kind of expression

that has gotten fairly antagonistic in recent years. President Clinton thinks so how about you. Well there is a shrillness from some parties on the various sides to be sure but I think it's an awfully long leap to become uncreative that it to move from the polemical sarcasm of Rush Limbaugh to an imputation of responsibility for an event of this particular sort. And again I am more concerned in the long term about the extent to which a government may attempt to curtail the ideological marketplace of even polemicist in fact polemicist in the United States have always been a constructive source of fertile change. Professor William Bell Psion thank you so much for joining us tonight. My pleasure in being here. Thank you. Mary Lou back to you. Thanks Bob. Coming up high tech training in North Carolina's world schools. But first some state lawmakers are trying their luck at getting a lottery. Michel Louis has that and the statewide news wrap up. Hello Michel.

Hello Mary Lou. Good evening everyone. Some proposed budget cuts to the Department of Public Instruction are getting mixed reviews. State Superintendent Bobby Etheridge says a proposed plan to cut nearly 300 jobs will hurt poor school districts. The positions are mainly personnel who help develop statewide tests and assist local schools with staff training. But John Dornan of the Public School Forum says the plan gives school districts more freedom of choice. They can decide whether to purchase a service from the state or if they don't need the services they can translate those dollars into services that would affect students in classrooms in their own backyard. In addition to the job cuts the plan would strip teachers of their tenure if their school district performed poorly. The State Board of Education came up with the plan at the request of the legislature. DP I had already made cuts of more than 20 percent. The new cuts would mean a 52 percent reduction in the department staff since 1989. Volunteer guardians ad litum rallied today at the legislature to protest budget

cuts to their program. The Republican controlled House plans to cut the program's administrative funds by 24 percent and to eliminate legal representation for children 13 and older. Guardian ad litum Jane Browning says this is an arbitrary cut off age that would leave many kids vulnerable how come a 13 year old take a stand and shot glass is guaranteed a public defender. But a child who's a bit other to use in the club gets no representation and that's what they're trying to Sunny. Guardians ad litum are volunteers who investigate problem families but when attorneys are needed to represent abused children they are paid by the state. Right after the rally a Senate committee approved less drastic cuts. The Senate plan would keep legal representation for older children but use attorneys more sparingly. Every child who is now covered would still be covered by the program. The role of the attorney would be managed differently and more economically.

The state Senate will try once again this year to put the issue of a lottery before North Carolina voters. The plan proposed by Senate Democrats would raise an estimated three point nine billion dollars over 13 years. The money would be used to build new schools. Senate President Mark bass Knight says a bill to get the issue on the ballot in November will pass in the Senate but its fate in the house remains uncertain. Three similar bills have died in the House over the past six years. The federal government is also looking to take money away from North Carolina a proposed plan by President Clinton to cut the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers could affect some Tar Heel beaches as part of a move to lower the deficit. Congress could take millions of dollars away from dredging projects to control erosion. The state would have to find that money on its own. Among the projects it would lose funding for plans to replenish the beaches and Brunswick County and the dredging of luck would prolly enjoy it. The proposal would spare the dredging already underway at both Carolina and Wrightsville Beach in business news seven North Carolina companies have made it onto this year's Fortune

500 list. Six of them for the first time. That's because Fortune magazine has now decided to include service companies in their list of the nation's biggest firms the nation's bank came in at number 71 first union is number one 87. Not far behind is Lowe's at 192. Duke Power landed in 260 third place. Nucor the only one of the group on previous list is number three seventy nine. And rounding out the North Carolina contingent are walkover number three 82 and Carolina Power and Light at three ninety one. The stock market was mixed today. The Dow Jones Industrial Average was down nearly four points to close at forty three hundred point seventeen. One volume of 354 million shares the Standard Poor's 500 index was off nearly a point and the Nasdaq composite index gained over 2. And now for some stocks of North Carolina interest. And because our society has become so technology oriented students need high tech

skills to have a successful future. Well it's not unusual to see computers in North Carolina's wealthier school districts. Many rural less fluent counties can afford them. But an outreach program at North Carolina State University is trying to level the playing field. It's a typical day at St. Paul's high school in Robison County a rural area with a large population. Low tax base and a lot of poverty. It's not where you'd expect to see the latest in high tech equipment but a visit to Pam Pittman science class finds just that. Computers are interfaced with probes for lab experiments which record data like heart rate temperature and motion detection another system allows students to put a slide under a microscope and see the organisms on a video monitor. They can even capture the image on a computer and print it out. All of this is possible thanks to NC State's pre-college science outreach program. We've got about $60000 worth of equipment and we work with biology chemistry

physics and physical science teachers. We have a variety of different types of equipment. We provide the training for the teachers we provide the equipment for them to Hughes and we provide the personnel but they need to be able to keep everything going for each of the past two summers. Fourteen high school science teachers from seven counties attended workshops at NC State to learn about these technologies. They looked at new ways to teach science and create experiments to be done with this equipment throughout the year. Each school has the use of the equipment for four weeks. The program is specifically designed to help rule counties in the southeastern part of the state. There's are a great. Difference in the availability of equipment and the role schools. We have some schools that are fairly well equipped and we have all those that have practically nothing and so we had to go on the basis of well provide everything for you. We try to encourage hands on learning activities because learning is

is much greater when it is actively involved in the process. In her role as coordinator Judy Powell delivers the equipment and sets it up at each school. She also helps teachers plan laboratory experiments and serves as a resource if they need additional help. I want you to do an experiment where you're going to see on this particular day Pam Pitman's environmental science class students are performing a lab experiment to see how the body uses energy when it's at rest and during exercise using the computer and probes they can graph the results immediately on the monitor and record them to be printed. It's a unique learning experience that often isn't available to students in rural communities. A lot of these kids are going to go out and get jobs where they have to use technological equipment. And if they're not from we with it from being in the classroom then I want a band especially when they're competing when kids from other countries who have had access this equipment

for by using this equipment in here at least they will get some exposure to what it is and how it works. Teachers aren't the only ones who rave about this program. Students give it high marks to computer people who called on them about it and you know a lot of kids don't have a chance to work with computers and do stuff like that. So you know it gives you know that whatever they're going to change your page class because they have a lot of that sense of fun and excitement about learning science is what this program strives for particularly in hopes of encouraging women and minorities to think about a science career. Pam Pittman also sees other benefits for her students.

A lot of them don't know anything. A lot of I have never been out of Robison County. And so I don't know I was out there and maybe this can extend their possibilities and I can see that they're somewhere out there there's other things. State Senator Leslie winner sees the benefit for all students. She has sponsored legislation which would appropriate one hundred forty three million dollars over the next two years for school technology for students just need to have computer skills if they're going to go out into the world they need to be able to use word processors and spreadsheets and all these things that are out there. That goal is just what the NC State outreach program hopes to achieve not

only to teach science better but to prepare students for a more productive and successful future. What we're hoping for that by using this equipment instead of their spending all of their time during the busy work that they're spending their time during their analysis and thinking process which is what it's all about. If we can teach them how to think then we can put them in just about any situation and we'll be successful. And see state science outreach program is funded by a grant from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and the university. It's a cooperative venture by the College of Agricultural and life science and the college of physical and mathematical sciences contact Judy Powell at 9 1 9 5 1 5 3 3 4 1. If you'd like more information about the program. Hope

you tune in tomorrow night here's what we're preparing for you. We'll take you to the coast to watch the North Carolina coast guard perform a daring rescue. Plus Adam Hochberg will examine proposed legislation to reduce the number of state funded abortions. And since this is National Victims Rights Week. We'll talk with Catherine Smith from the North Carolina Victims Assistance Network about a constitutional amendment to protect the rights of crime victims. Now don't forget a very special reminder Thursday night North Carolina now will take you live to opening night of the April inter-national home furnishings market in High Point. Now this is the largest event in North Carolina yet it's not open to the public. But fear not you'll be able to see the market like you've never seen it before.

When you tune into our coverage Thursday at 7:30. That's it for tonight and we'll see you tomorrow night at 7:30 Good night everyone.