Biography Hawaiʻi; Maiki Aiu Lake; Interview with Kalena Silva 11/16/01 #4

Yeah, I'm just building off the, yeah, we're talking about the problem and the relation and the chance and whatever, now I know, yeah, we'll better do one of the things we asked okay okay yeah right okay I'd be happy to talk about that yeah okay I guess we'll go to Frank's question about anti-Mikey's and language right anti-Mikey was a proponent of Hawaiian language and not only in terms of its use in chanting and singing which of course meant a lot to her since

she taught Hula but also in terms of it being a spoken language a common spoken language and she I think at times maybe she sort of regretted that she never really spoke Hawaiian very fluently my personal opinion is that she understood Hawaiian really quite well and so if people spoke she understood what people were saying but she wasn't as quick to answer or to be able to express yourself in Hawaiian and but a lot of her knowledge though that she did have a Hawaiian was really quite poetic because of her association with Hula and the chanting and the singing and so on and so I do believe that she had knowledge of that poetic use of Hawaiian but I know that she was a proponent of Hawaiian as a as a language like with a legitimacy of any other language Japanese or French or Spanish and I'm thinking about one specific instance when the Teatairangi

Kahuk was the Māori Queen came to visit and we were out in Gash it was was it at Pumai Kilani's Pumai Kilani's home I can't remember exactly where it was now it says yes it was Pura Lua right and we had a we were at the Kawanana core home there and the Kawanana cores were hosting the Māori Queen and her entourage and so we had you know done had eaten and Mahi was at the Piano Mahi Bhima and he was playing and people were singing and dancing and then it came time to to thank people and to say goodbye goodnight and of course the Māori Queen was there in the Kawanana cores and Abbi Gale and Pumai and others and Mahi and others of us who had been invited

because of Wahula ability and so it came to the point where it was sign it and and we're I remember we were around the dining room table people were standing and Mahi turned to me and she said she said sweetheart she said say something to these people please thank them in our language she said and so I thought oh I was really really quite well I was totally unprepared that we would you know be asked to do anything like that she said no she said no she said yes you do it you do it now and so I just I just started speaking and I was very young at the time I mean I must have been maybe 2021 speaking in Hawaiian and I remember very clearly that as I started to speak she leaned on my shoulder and she started to cry and just sort of almost sobbing you know and as I think of it now I sort of I become moved to tears myself because to me although she

wasn't able to speak the language she had a very at her very deepest you know the the very deepest part of herself she realized that in order for us Hawaiians to to be Hawaiians in order for us to be able to identify ourselves as a people with the culture and the language we had to know that language and so I'll never forget and it was just very short I think I spoke maybe for a minute you know I really felt intimidated really at the time because I was just this young whippersnapper and yet she saw fit to you know ask me to do something like that and so from that time on I think I never really doubted it but from that time on I saw that she had a great love for our language and she saw it as the core of Hawaiians as a people do you think she her presence in your life influenced you to do some of the things you've done oh absolutely right the Mikey's influence

I think one of the things that Mikey influenced I probably not just myself I think probably every student that she had what one of the things that she stressed in her teaching was that if you put in the time and you you put in the effort and you have this dream a dream or a goal you can achieve it go for it you should always say that do it she said do it she said you do she always said that to us you do we come to her with ideas for choreography for pieces of poetry we were composing for ideas about performances or whatever and she said yes yes she give us advice then she said you do you do it and so we always felt supported by her a tremendous sense of security and the comfort of knowing that she was there to support us and to encourage us and

inspire us really is what she did and that that that's guided me I think throughout my my life she was very open to you talk about Mikey's being open to all kinds of people yes yes I Mikey was definitely open to people and not just to Hawaiians but to all people who are interested in this art of Hula because she truly considered Hula to be an art of world stature and so although I never recall I can't recall her ever saying this in these these words these specific words but I do believe that she felt that Hula was an art form of a stature equal to ballet or Barat Natiem or Katakali

or any of these other forms of dance around the world and because of this belief of hers she also believed that it shouldn't be limited just to Hawaiians and so she accepted people from Japan and from Europe and other parts of the world to study with her I think the most important to her the most important thing to her was not your ethnic background but your interest and your desire to commit to the work that she would set forth for people in her Hula that was the most important thing okay you know there there's there was a movement in the like 60s and 70s that people now refer to as the Hawaiian Renaissance what do you whatever we want to call it what do you

think were the elements that led to that revitalization culture I think the so-called Hawaiian Renaissance of the late 60s and early 70s was a result of a fear of loss because throughout the century prior to that time there was increased mounting westernization Americanization in Hawaii and of course you know one thing led to another after Hawaii became a territory in 1900 we became a state in 1959 and throughout all that time and afterward there's this continuing push toward Americanization and I think that in the late 60s people saw that although there were benefits perhaps politically socially economically from our association with America with the United States I think they they also became fearful that a lot of traditional knowledge was being lost and so this resulted in

this so-called Hawaiian Renaissance within Hawaiian culture who do you think invests into the digital sort of cultural authority oh that's an excellent question especially you know related to today's circumstances who knows I mean it's a free for all today it's incredible and it really disturbs me it's it's very very disturbing to me because there's not in the old days you know there was enough the culture Hawaiian culture was solid enough had enough of a foundation that there was common knowledge and then there were people that you knew had specific kinds of knowledge that you could go to and study with or learn from you know if you if you if you needed to or wanted to

or if they allowed you to and there was common knowledge of those sorts of things and even I think into Mrs. Puku each time but and from the early 1900s up until now there's been because of the dissolution and the decline of Hawaiian culture there's been an increasing lack of knowledge of of the very basic sorts of things and so as a result you know people end up saying this and saying that about Hawaiian culture and saying and saying it as if you know it's it's this is the way it's been for for centuries and and and and merely sort of documenting or confirming that you know statements like that like that by saying oh my grandmother did this or my great-grandmother did this and certainly we understand that the regional differences and all the rest but you know some of the the kinds of information that is beginning or that has been in in recent years

you know sort of promulgated by people it's just it's it's it's very disheartening it's very disheartening because it has no basis in Hawaiian culture and or traditional thinking and it is it really is a reflection of sort of a creative maybe sense I mean I'm and I'm being kindier you know and and and not always the kind of honesty that integrity that you know you would hope people sharing a culture would want to express or exhibit so you know I think that the knowledge of and this comes back to to language I think that knowledge of the language is an extremely valuable tool for for for people interested in gaining more of a Hawaiian knowledge and knowledge of the language also I think is a is an indicator that there is some basis for

traditional knowledge here and so I'm more likely to respect an opinion from someone who has that kind of basis in knowledge that is linguistic Hawaiian linguistic knowledge than someone who who doesn't but you know as I said it today it's it's very disheartening for example oh I think it was three months ago two months ago there was an article in the Honolulu magazine and I can't remember Anthony is that the writer I can't remember the author's name but he wrote about the use of the word ohana did you read that okay oh it was Whitney right not Anthony Whitney right Scott Whitney and he interviewed certain Hawaiian scholars people recognized in the Hawaiian community and it was very disturbing because these people

were saying informed because it's not his fault I don't fault Scott Whitney he was relying on these people who are recognizing the Hawaiian community as bearers of knowledge through research or through oral sources and his premise basically in the article was that their this word ohana is perhaps came from Ka'u perhaps where Mary Covena Pukui was born and raised and which was used in her seminal work with ES Craig Hill handy Polynesian family system in Ka'u that that word ohana was used in that work of theirs and that subsequently it sort of spread throughout Hawaii well there's just no foundation for there's no basis for that at all and these people were saying to Scott Whitney that as far as they knew there were no instances of traditional Hawaiian poetry that had

the use of the word ohana in it and I was shocked because there's so many instances of instances of old very old poetry that has use of the word ohana in it so to me this is an example of a writer in this instance going to what generally in the community are considered to be people who know something about Hawaiian language and culture and but you know show dismally in a very dismal way that they don't you know in this specific instance I'm not I'm not you know it's not a blanket statement but in this specific instance and unfortunately there's too much of that happening I think today in Hawaii that's my sort of beef today you thought though yes yes well I had heard that Scott Whitney was going to write something else yeah okay good because we sent him stuff

called him and yeah yeah yeah yeah that's good I got to get a copy of that it's a November issue right yeah this one okay so do you think that Auntie Mikey was invested in with some kind of cultural authority by her elders oh absolutely definitely and I think she realized that she would have no authority if it weren't for the kupuna the elders who were who were very much supporting her to include people like Mary Kavanaugh Pukui Viki E. Rodriguez of course Localia Montgomery all the people in her elders in her family she realized that she had no no standing at all if it weren't for them and she always reminded us of that you know always she's always respect your elders remember that they came before you and that this knowledge is from them you

respect that and them so I think that because she made that so central to her teaching and just to her to the way she was and in the way she related to people in the community people recognized that she had that authority although although I know she had her detractors as well and you know I've read that she was criticized for her and Nikki if so many students in your in that public school class yes do you know why that why people criticized her for that I don't know do you know why she it was so important to her to have that class I think that well the way I found out about it I can I can just tell you from personal experience okay okay okay I found out about her opening of this Hula Kahiko class through my first teacher in chanting and that was Hula Richard's and I was studying with her

Kamehameha when I was a senior there and so after a year Kauulu said you know I've kind of taught you everything I know you know I noticed in the paper and this is how Kauulu found out about it there was an ad in the paper about Mikey's opening up this Hula Kahiko class and so she said I'm gonna go you come with me let's go and so I said okay and so we went and that's how I got started with anti Mikey and it was through Hula who had seen the ad in the in the newspaper and of course you know that Hula became the first actual Kumuhula graduated from the Hala in 1972 and that the rest of us of us were supposed to graduate but we failed the the ritual exams so but at any rate I think that I remember Mikey saying to us and those during those early periods of our study that how should I say this she felt that she she needed to advertise and to open it up to

the wider community because she felt that among the students that she had at the time there wasn't enough expertise and skill being developed and that and I really we probably shouldn't even include this I shouldn't be saying this probably because it doesn't reflect well on those early students of hers because yeah I should probably let's not say this I won't say this yeah it's okay because I think she said it herself and she said almost exactly what you said okay okay good okay oh good okay okay yeah so do you think you know because I guess traditionally I've read that Hula only trained like a very you know the only one you like a very very few people yeah yeah

the more the masses I guess maybe that's why but people were objected she was consciously trying to challenge tradition or you think she she had other reasons I read it okay okay okay yeah Karen might have a better idea why do you think traditions change because in order for them to be to be viable traditions have to change they have to otherwise they become sort of specimens on a shelf and specimens on a shelf don't have any life no living viable breathing traditions don't exist in a vacuum they exist as a part of a larger society community and Hula is no exception

could you tell us a little more specifically what you're training in that class was like what you had to do what you had to learn so many years ago gosh you want specific things yeah highlights you know it's interesting I remember more sort of just sort of Mikey as a person then I even remember her as a teacher I don't in some way she wasn't even a teacher what she was a teacher but she was more than just a teacher she was she was just fundamentally an extremely compassionate knowledgeable sort of human being that while specific things

I remember we had to pay Karen Karen was the person who collected all the money at the front desk and if you were late and I was just a struggling college student at the time and if I was late a couple times and I was I would get past you notice from Karen and she never really Karen really didn't participate with us but she was always there she was just always there in the corner and I wasn't quite sure you know right any rate we would meet once a week and or more often if we're preparing for concert or for the Uniki especially we met more often and we would we studied we learned use of the various musical instruments that are commonly used in the Hula like the further gourd rattle the uli uli the ili ili you know stone castanets

was the ipu the pahu the pudi u the pu ili and so on and I think Mikey taught them those two us because she wanted us to have experience with with Hula's that featured these musical instruments so we might learn one uli uli and then go to an ili ili and then go to a pu ili in these different musical instrument types we didn't we wanted to desperately but we didn't we weren't allowed to learn hula pahu until the very end the drum dances she felt were so special that I think part of it too was she wanted to see how long we'd be in it with her and so although it was just two years really nineteen seventy seventy one seventy two you know those of us who stayed learned these Hula pahu and so she taught the men our ear which is a drum dance that the men did only and so we we were just thrilled when she told us I remember the the night she said next week you you're going

to learn this drum dance our ear which of course you know is prehistoric and and it was it's just very venerable and so we were very very happy to know that we would be learning those so I she had a way of teaching us these things that sort of allowed the repertoire to build and so we had a very nice thing that I think she did in her teaching was allowed us to learn hula no sitting dances I've talked to hula students today who unfortunately don't know any sitting dances they don't know how to do a hula uli uli or hula ili ili a pu ili cala oh you know they don't know how to do those dances and I think some of it has to do with the perception on the part perhaps of some modern kumu hula contemporary kumu hula that they're boring although I'm seeing some very very hopeful science in the very monarch and come in the day competitions where I'm seeing groups actually

perform beautiful hula no ho and wini and I think a lot of that has to do with incentive to some of these kumu hula in terms of the repertoire that they're passing on to their students when they see that for example a halau can do a sitting dance and win first place and I have to be up and you know moving all over the stage up and down and jumping here and there and all like that you know but they can do something as sedate as graceful and lovely as a sitting hula and win I think this first and this has I think spurred some kumu hula to include more hula no ho in the repertoire but Mikey did that I mean that was just a part of her in competition was not in her in her that was not a part of her agenda if you if you will she was not interested in competition and so she taught these hula to us because she thought that we should know them in order to say that we were hula people we needed to know these these kinds of dances not just because you know

an audience might rise to the feet and roar with approval I don't think that was that wasn't important to her was the training rigorous well the different ways of interpreting I think what rigorous means I would say that she was rigorous in some aspects and not as rigorous in others and some shockingly I think perhaps the people today perhaps you know I think she wasn't I mean costume was important but I don't remember her placing such a huge importance on costuming I important but not so important I think she was rigorous with the things that matter I think that's probably what I want to say and that is understanding of the of the text

and knowing the hula very well and but extraneous things like maybe you know body adornments or you know lays and as important as they were they weren't as important as the text and the dance itself as she was rigorous and I think