Eyes on the Prize II; Interview with Jabir Herbert Muhammad

my wife is coming. I don't know how. Take one is up. Okay. Okay. Speed. All right. I think that that was a minute. So you better hurry up. Okay. Marker? Great. Yeah. Mr. Ma'am. The first question to you is, the nation is long to track a lot of young men like Charles Square. Why why did it in the early 60s of tracks such young men like Charles Square? Well, the nation of Islam had a great attraction to not only young men's of of after these boxes that they had they had a attraction for I would say more or less the down tried it of people that feel that they have been oppressed

by the society and special white supremacy in the society. So there was a attracted to all the nation of Islam because the nation of Islam gave them hope that this wasn't something that was going to prevail all the time that God had had came to deliver deliver them from the oppressor. When did you first meet are we? How did you first meet? Well, I first met Ali sometime after he fought Sonny Liston. But my first quainting with him was he used to come through our affairs special our national meetings and I would see him in the crowd and that's all but just known as Muhammad Ali the fighter. He hadn't fought Sonny Liston. And then when it came time when he was fighting. Big partner. Yeah. No, his name was castically. Thank you. His name was since. Yeah, but okay. Are you on me started to talk me go back. Okay, the first time I met Ali was after he had

fought Sonny Liston but his name then was Cassius Clay before then. And it was at one time and I was in a studio at my own camera studio. My father called me that night and asked me that I know how to get in touch with Cassius Clay. And I told him yes, I can call somebody in Miami. He said we get in touch with him and let him know that his name is not Cassius Clay in the movie. His name is Muhammad Ali and also his brother Rudy. Rudy. His name is my father. Rudy. Now I forget my ways. Rudy way. Rudy. But now his name was not Rudy. This is how I try to say that but nothing I do. No, another person. Marker. When I first met Ali, he came by my studio. I had a studio called Star Studio on 79th and near Kyanera was 79th. Take it off again.

Champlain. The first time I met Ali was in 1964. My studio, I was a photographer and I had a studio and he came in and he said I heard that she was the greatest putrid photographer. So I thought you should have putrid the greatest. I was flattered at that time because I was the greatest photographer that was no joke like he's saying he was the greatest. I really felt that I was the greatest putrid photographer. So I shot his picture and it came out very well. Now, if you wanted me to tell the story of Muhammad picture then okay. Tell me about why you were in the nation changed your name and then your father told you that you should have Ali, you gave Ali a new name.

Yes, because first the nation of Islam, under the leadership of my father, Elijah Muhammad, it had a great attraction for the down and for the down trotted people. Those people that feel that they was oppressed from a white supremacist society. That's why most of the people was of the blacks and was of the more less the unlettered man at first. I leave personally was attracted by it because the philosophy and the teaching itself, the philosophy was that he saw that this was a black black group calling a black man, calling all white people devils. And then he said he went back home and he looked on his picture on his wall where he had Jesus and all the 12 disciples of Jesus, the last supper. And he noticed everybody was white. And so then he started having the conflict in itself about what would affect what this would be on the white society if it was reversed. If these people was all black and they had to live with a black Jesus

and a black what we call the disciples. What kind of effect would it be on their mind? And he come to the conclusion that this would definitely have a bad effect on any society using racism and divinity. So then he saw that this was not right. And he joined my father because that this little black man was has bold enough to tell the world that he was all white was devils. Then he got bold enough to tell everybody he was the greatest and he can be in the man on their own lives. So this promoted him and to saying he was the greatest because my father, the philosopher of the blacks was the greatest. And they was the greater human beings physically and mentally if they was given a chance to express themselves. Great. Great. Let's go. That's good. That's good answer. Now I want to ask you. Is it Marker? Tell me, Mr. Mohammed, members of the people joined a nation they had to change their name. What was the

reason behind that? Well, before we was carrying the names of our sleeve masters. And we feel that if we was free, we shouldn't be identified with our sleeve master in our names. That if I marry a young lady and her name is Bogotongo and my name is Suwana, then her name should be from a free person. And the black person supposed to be free. So they went back into their own names and not identify them with their oppressors or their white sleeve masters or any derivative from them. You have to realize in this context now this was in the context of the 60s. A lot of the things that we know is not going on in our society that went on then. And now we don't call white folks there was just because they were our oppressors still in some form. Okay. Tell me a story about your father talking to you about calling caches about changes. Yes.

Why when my father called me on the phone about changing caches clay name to Muhammad Ali Ali was entraining for this upcoming Sunday list and fight. And he told me that get in touch with him if I could and let him know that his name was it has been changed. He was changing his name from caches. My cell is clay to Muhammad Ali. And that this name would connect him with five billion Muslims all around the world. And they would rally behind him and he would become like a statue of liberty in the heart of New York that everyone would want to see him and everyone would want his autograph. And this has became a fact. Okay. Let's come a second. I don't want to ask you that one again. But I like it. Try it with different angles. Take five. You can do it. You're good. You haven't seen me in your television. Oh, these years I don't get on TV. I'm talking about TV.

They don't paint that yet. Let's try it. Marker. Okay, Miss Ali. Tell me about your father talking to you about calling Ali. What changes name? Yes, my father called me concerning to change caches clay name at the time to Muhammad Ali. Because in our religious organization at that time, our philosophy was that the black people, the one slave, should not carry the name of their one slave masters. But they should be identified with the origin. And since Muhammad Ali was a Muslim, he should carry a Muslim name. And that name he gave him was Muhammad Ali. And he told him, if... That was good. You ran out of Muslim. Marker.

Tell me about your father talking to you about calling clay and changing his name and why he had to change his name and what it would mean. My father called me and this was in the early sixies in February. When Ali was at that time called caches clay. But he was getting ready for his upcoming fight against Sonny Liston. My father called me and told me that to call Ali, he didn't touch with him. And let him know that his name should not be caches clay. That caches clay identifies him with his slave master. And since he's a Muslim, he's a free man and he's a free person. And he's a Muslim and identifies him with five billion Muslim all around the world. And his name would be known as Muhammad Ali from now on. Okay, what are they saying we do? What do you mean people do work? Yes, he informed me that they didn't know that the people by his name be Muhammad Ali. All the Muslim around the world would rally around his name and rally around him.

And they'll see him as the Statue of Liberty. And when they come, they would want to get his pictures and autograph. And they never be a good way for him to let the world know that he's a Muslim from the nation of Islam. Very good, thanks. Now you and Ali went to Europe, went to Africa in 1964. What was some of the nations you went to and who some of the leaders you met? What was the reception line from the people? Well, when Ali met me, I was in my studio. And this is how he can meet me personally after I had informed him by his name. And he came in my studio and just about a week before then, I had shot a photograph of his first wife, Sanji Klee. And I had delivered her picture to him to her about two days after I met Ali. And so she signed an autograph on the Never Meeting Ali. But she signed her picture 11 by 14 from one champ to another. And never seen Ali.

That's his first wife, Sanji. Son your world at that time. And Ali, from my then, Ali told me that he was invited to go to make an African tour. And did I come here to come along? He went to my father and asked my father because I was working there with my father. My father told me yesterday I would be the one to go. And I think these are the words that tied me with Ali for 25 years now. My father told him that my son Herbert, my name was called Herbert then, the Herbert Muhammad. And he said, my son Herbert would be the one to go with you. Because he knows how I would answer any question that you want to ask me. Just ask my son Herbert. And he would tell you, this was a bounding factor from me and Ali Kareer from that date to this. That Ali knows that when he speak and he asked me a question that I would ask him, like my father would ask him to him. And this is the person that really Ali loved and followed in his career. So, when you went to Africa, where did you go? When you went to Africa, you went to Ghana. You started going outside at Junkatown here.

I jumped on top of it. Okay. Well, when we went to Ghana and we went to Nigeria, we went to Egypt. There was a three main country we went to at first. And by me, I had been traveling the same path already in 1959 with my father. That's also the reason my father taught Ali how to go with him. Called Gamal Abdu Nasa, the president of Egypt. When they got there, he had an invitation for Rakhman and Ali to come visit him. And the security day would not accept me. They say he just said, bring Ali and his brother. So, but when Ali got there, Nasa asked him, where is Herbert Muhammad? And he said that he's not here. He said, you're going to go back. I won't see you until you bring him back. So, the next day, they brought me back. And that's how the trip went from then on. Ali saw that the nation of Islam through the leadership of my father had, it was respected over there because his son was respected. So, he received by the people.

He received by the people? Yes. Well, Ali was, and the people received Ali very good. They received him as though he was a president of the country or king, actually. And most people say that Ali got more attention from the masses than they president or their king gets. So, the people were very warm to receive. And also, the kings and president received him also very great. What's that? Marker? Ready? Yeah. First of all, tell me the name of three countries that you and Ali went to when you were on your tour of Africa. And how was he received? Yes, in 1964, Ali invited to go to several African countries. The three that I remember very distinctly is Ghana and Nigeria and Egypt. And he would receive very well from all the mass of the people. They came out in the hundreds of thousands. In fact, in Ghana, I thought I might even get killed.

So many people was running to Ali. I ran away from him to get to save my life. And the same thing happened in Egypt. They were almost turned over the cause that Ali was in. You just really can't believe how it was. It was worse than they showed the Beatles when the people come out to the Beatles of Michael Jackson. Yes, it's very, very good. Great. It's good. Very good. Very good. There's a lot of people out there saying it's bad and the truth. But this is the truth. You want to take it? Take it. Mr. Mohammed, Ali had been told he made the go before the Illinois Public Commission to apologize. If they were going to sanction the fight with Ali to rel. What did you counsel? What was your counsel to Ali before he went before the commission? I counseled with him before he went. He didn't include Ali's name. Yes, Mohammed Ali. I counseled Ali before he went before the commission. Yes, my counsel, my discussion with Mohammed Ali before he went before the state commission,

was that he was, you know, he must stand up for what he believed in. And that if he believed in Islam and he was father and my father then, it must be reflected in his decision that he make today. And then he's taken the standard he did where everybody knows. But he had no cause with the V. A. Khan. He was not going to be a part of it to anybody killing innocent women and surgeons and things. Or even being associated in a hospital and then like that. So he taught them clean up my stale and take my tail to jail. Before I do something like that. What about what you were saying that you were soldiers and no one? Nobody was remembered and they should spoke to you for what they should do. Oh yes, when like Mohammed Ali or myself or anyone else I was also in that time. And my brother Wallace who's not the head of our community. He went to jail. I had three or four brothers went to jail before. We even saw Ali.

So everyone noted that time. There's no need to go and ask down to be Elijah. I remember what should they do because that was show that they was weak in their faith. They were believed that I must be weak and weak in my faith. After I know my leader done taking a stand in his life and spent five years in jail for not going to the army. How can I feel to go and ask that same leader? What should I do? His record speaks for itself what he should tell you. So but he wouldn't get out of my father would not let this have be a party to that because they know he know that that was. That prince can go and tell the graph people that the only Elijah Muhammad say I'm not going. I'm not going. Then they go and charge my father. So my father will never give them an answer whether they should do whatever your conscious leads you to do. Follow your own conscious. Great. What's that? This was right before Ali went to the Houston induction. I know you spoke with him constantly all the time. What was some of the counseling that you gave Ali before he was supposed to appear before he used an induction boy?

Well, before he was to appear before the induction boy. Before Ali. Before Ali was in... So that started every time. Okay. Yeah. Before Ali was to appear before the induction boy. He called me that morning as he do most morning or most nights. And he was asked to me and they were like, what do you think going to happen? Not that what he should do. I think Ali was already convinced in his own conscious that he was going to stand up for his principles. But he always liked to bounce it off to me how I feel about it. Because we also realized the repercussion that this could have about his career. So he had made up his mind that he was going to stand up for his principles and that what... What else can he... I tell him. I said no. You must be convincing your own mind and conscious that what you are doing is right. Because whatever come after you can be the person that is required to get any reward or any punishment. So he had made up his mind. He was convinced that he would take a stand on the side of what we call the injustice. That he would not be a part of an unjust war.

All right. Cut. Good. Good. Marker? Okay. Great one. So now tell me the counter-reaction he was getting on me and I called people shooting at his house. So he made his end time for his end time for everyone. You say when I'm going to Ali, he made an anti-Vietnam statement. I think he made a pro-Vietnam statement. When you say anti-guester, you say he was against it. You mean the war? Anti-war statement. That's my war statement. Okay. That he was against the war on them. Let's do it again. Okay. And Ali made his anti-war statement. What was some of the reaction he was getting the phone call? Yeah. When Ali made his statement that he was not going to be a party to an unjust war against the Viet Cong. A Vietnam, a Viet Cong people. That it was a backlash from the white community. Some of them would call them all times a night, threatened to bump his house. They were thorax at his house.

Some of them even drive by and cars hollering and shooting at his places. And different things like that. And then he had a lot of bad press. Some of the people like Dick Young, they would always write very bad and negative about what he was doing. So he had a lot of things to overcome. And they were going in the street. Some of the people were cursing him and calling him out of his name. Yes. Things like that happen. Yeah. Phone call. Phone call was threatening calls. They were threatening Muhammad Ali by making calls that some would call him all his name or kind of derogatory name. You can think of back in those days and sixties that a white person would call a black person that they didn't like. So he got all the whole nine yards of it. So it didn't affect him in no way because he always felt that these people had a devilish nature anyway. That was his life. He had a reaction from black people. Mark. Marker. This is the wrap up in his original last one.

It's much to tell me again the kind of reaction he was getting when he made his anti-war statements. The kind of calls he was getting people coming to his house and stuff like that. Yes. Well, Muhammad Ali, when he made his statement that he would not have anything to do with the Vietnam War, that he began to get a lot of statements from different people in the white community, especially white community. They would throw rocks at his house. They would shoot his house at night. They would call him all the time to day and night because they were very hurt themselves because some of their family members are the associate that they live one had been killed in the war and they didn't feel why did Muhammad Ali can make this kind of money and often people in the United States and he don't go to war. And then so they would threaten him. Shoot at his house. Do all these kind of thing. On the street they would spit at him and call him out of his name.

They would do a lot of bad things. And just in effect Ali in no way and against the people because he knew that there was some people had that kind of mentality. Great. Thank you. Okay.