Roger Welsch &…; 402; Duane Obermier

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by viewers like you who are members of Nebraska's Public Television. Joining Roger this evening is Dwayne Obermeier of the Nebraska Education Association. Good evening and welcome. My dad is always wondered what I'm going to get a job. It seems as if all I've ever done is to go to school as a student or as a teacher. Education is my life. And I still remember with fondness and gratitude the great teachers who influenced me in my life. I'll get anyone feel otherwise. And yet the National and Nebraska Education Associations have somehow become tangled in controversy. Is the Association of Union, a lobby, a professional society. My guest this evening is Dwayne Obermeier, president of the Nebraska State Education Association. Dwayne thank you very much for coming by this evening. Actually

this is a cultural affairs show and we tape it and then months later the show airs. But tonight we're the cutting edge of the news because this morning in the Lincoln Paper you were front page news. And I guess it's an old story but a recurrent story and a very important story. The headline is dismaying. State's low teacher salaries a problem officials say. Why is it that Nebraska and the United States in general teachers enjoy such low status and reward for the incredibly important work they do? I wish I had the answer to that and I don't. I think particularly here in Nebraska it is without a doubt true that schools do an excellent job on almost any measure of academic success. Our students here in Nebraska rank at least in the top 10 of the states in the union and often higher. In fact on a composite score of a number of different tests,

Nebraska actually ties for second place in the nation. So it's a quality product and yet I don't think the rewards the salaries are commensurate. No and I'm just going to quickly refer to something that I brought along just because I didn't think I could remember the numbers just from my own memory. We rank 44th in the nation in beginning salary. 44th among the states and that's a figure of 21 ,949 dollars. For just average teacher salary we rank 41st in the nation and that figure is 33 ,400. That's what the average teacher makes in Nebraska. And the reason and I wasn't featured on the front page by the way the issue was the issue of teacher salaries. We've really been focusing on that because we see it as a potential bombshell problem for us. Because teachers are leaving the profession because of retirement. They're leaving to go

to higher paying jobs and we're going to need lots of teachers in the next number of years. It's going to be very hard I would think to lure people to convince people to go into education. And then once they graduate and are ready to go into the profession it's going to be very difficult I would think to keep them here. The problem has two prongs. One is getting them there as you said and the other one is keeping them there. And of course we want people who are dedicated to the work and drawn to the work. But to keep them there it is a problem particularly in this booming economy that our state and our country is enjoying right now to have teachers particularly here in Nebraska rank as I mentioned a moment ago. So low in contrast to other states. It's baffling to me. You would think that during good times you would invest invest in infrastructure

in highways in the vital things in education. Because what are you going to do in times or tough? You're sure not going to have money then to put into these things. And yet I watch bond issue after bond issue being rejected across the state and here remarkably pathetic explanations given for it. You know I don't have any kids in school or my kids have graduated from school and therefore I'm not interested in paying higher taxes, higher taxes amount to nickels and dimes. When this is precisely the kind of investment that makes all of us better off in the long run. Well I'm absolutely convinced and I know I'm biased. I talk for 33 years and my life is still public education. But I'm convinced that public education keeps America in an excellent shape. Of course private schools are important to our to our country, private and procual schools. But it's public education worth by far the bulk of our students are. And that's where they're getting their education and I think our country has done extremely well. And by the way you mentioned bond issues

and I'd sure like to point out that both Lincoln and Omaha passed bond issues and my compliments to the voters who marked their ex on the yes spot and those two communities others haven't fared so well. I was surprised and gratified to see that happen because I went to school here in Lincoln and even though I don't live here anymore I still have family here in town. I'd like to see that family prosper and my grandkids go to a good school too. You mentioned that you spent your lifetime in education. Tell us a little bit about how you wound up where you are. Well I went to a very small school that no longer exists. Waco High School. I graduated in 1961 with 16 other students and I was always encouraged by both my parents and my teachers to go to college. And I didn't have it defined real well in my mind where I wanted to go or what I wanted to do. I did visit the university campus and I'm not particularly proud of this but I think it intimidated me. Farm

kid from graduating from Waco High School coming to the university in Nebraska. It was huge and I as I say I'm not particularly proud of it but I understand setting kind of intimidated me. So I ended up at what was then Carnegie State College which is now University of Nebraska at Carnegie. In fact we were going through a name change at the time to take the word teacher out. Carnegie State Teachers College it changed to just Carnegie State College. Well nearly all the students were teachers in teacher education so I ended up there as well. So I think it would be fair to say that I kind of ended up as a teacher by accident more than on purpose but I'm really glad I landed up there. Graduated from college went to teach at Hastings High School. Stayed there two years, moved north to Grand Island and little did I know I'd be there so long but 31 years at Grand Island High School. And

they were good years, very good years. I spent most of them as a journalism teacher by the way. Working on Yearbook and Newspaper with students which is a very demanding but a very good job because you get to know your students so well. Well we in Danubrog like to think of Grand Island as being the bedroom community for Danubrog so I know Grand Island quite well. Well you were not simply a hard working teacher, you were apparently a distinguished teacher, you were a teacher of the year and what year was it? 1990, I believe. At the State of Nebraska right? Yes and that was a great honor and it was a wonderful thing to happen to me and I enjoyed it very much. Got a chance to get out and deliver some speeches here and there and talk about education and it was just a wonderful year that I really enjoyed. Being being treated in that way. Now you're an official in the Nebraska State Education Association. What is the Nebraska State Education Association? What does it do? We're an organization of some 24

,000 school employees, primarily classroom teachers but we have administrator members and we've just within the last year, last couple years opened up membership to what we call ESPs that's education support personnel and that would include people who work in food preparation or transportation or custodial work. So it's an organization I say primarily classroom teachers but administrators and ESPs as well. Our goal, we have, we do a number of things but our overarching goal is to increase student achievement in schools in Nebraska. That's what we really want to do. We do that in a number of ways but that's our overarching goal to try to get a quality teacher in every classroom because it's been proven by research that that is the single most important factor in having students achieve well. So we do that in many, many, many

ways. If you were into a problem that I've had some of my friends who were in business talk about that in this booming economy that you mentioned were unemployment I think in Nebraska. It's like 2 % or something crazy like that. Excellent. But it's almost impossible. That's excellent but it's almost impossible to find good employees because we're down to the place where almost the unemployable can find jobs. Is that the same situation in education? Well, I don't, if it is, it's because we aren't offering enough money to attract them to attract high school seniors and college freshmen, attract them into the profession. They're aware of these numbers that I quoted earlier as well and unfortunately there are even teachers who do not encourage their sons and daughters to become teachers. Oh, I can understand. Because they're discouraged. They know too much going. This may sound like a hostile question but it really is and I'm interested in knowing. I had done some consulting a long time ago for the living history farms in Iowa

and their idea at that time their goal has changed a little bit. They had a farm for 1830 where they recreated the buildings in the farmstead and the farming techniques for 1830. Then they had a farmstead for the turn of the century for the transition between animals and steam traction and internal combustion engines later on. Then they were developing a farm for the future. Right that time was year 2000. Now it's laughable. The future has arrived. The future is just a few months ago. It's here. It's here. And they wondered what do we do about the farm for 2000? Is it going to be an enormous petrochemical huge industrial farm or what is it going to be? And I suggested that maybe they had two paths going to the farm of 2000. One would take them to the huge industrial farm having petrochemical reliance. And the other path would take you back to the farm for 1830 which may be the farm for 2000. I have always been impressed when I was teaching at the university

by students whose journals I would get. I could almost look at their journals and tell what kind of school they'd gone to. The very best journals, the very best writing, the clearest handwriting, the best English came from kids who were going to little bitty country schools like you graduated from. My daughter is in a consolidated school but I think her class is something like 50 or something I said to her it's the three towns out around where I live. And is there a possibility that especially in the lower grades we've made the schools too big that we almost have to go back to just as we may have to get an agriculture go back to the farm of 1830. That maybe we need to go back to some degree to the little one room, two room, three room schools of the past. There is some research that says that our schools might be too big and I taught in a big school. Grand Island High School, the last year I was there had 1800 students. That's a lot of

students to keep track of. The trick in a setting like that I think is to establish if this makes sense schools within schools so that students have an area to identify with some teachers to identify with some classmates to identify with I think that's important. I don't know that we want to move back to the one room school which I also had some experience with by the way as a first and second grader. I don't know that we want to go back that far but there is some research that would suggest that the huge schools that we have now perhaps don't serve students as well as at least somewhat smaller. I think they still need to be big enough to offer students the technological advances that are so much a part of our world today and other things like that. So that they have those which maybe the very very very small schools would have trouble offering. I'm a folklorist. My training is in folklore. Traditional stories, tales, songs, especially the tall tales always been an area of interest to me. And they've been much enjoyed too as evidence by the way by your face in the bar

room floor which you were honored with recently. And I thought as a folklorist well the coming age of the web is going to kill storytelling. You know there's people don't get together like they used to anymore. My kid doesn't have to go get together with her pals. They sit in front of a computer and they're all linked up by some kind of system. I don't even understand and they're all typing away like crazy talking over the web. But what I've found I'm a writer for successful farming and we have a tall tale website that now the storytelling circle is not just me and three or four of my cronies up at the Danna Brog Davern. We have a circle of tall tale tellers in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Europe all sitting around telling stories. But in some ways the very thing that I thought would destroy the traditional old -timey sort of storytelling has really fed it. I wonder if that might not be happening in the schools too because there was a time when well a little

school can't afford a computer. Now these kids all have computers at home even my daughter can look up the encyclopedia Britannica in her bedroom now just by flicking a button. And maybe once the resources like that are available to kids in one room schools although I've also been told there's a problem with one room schools you get one bum teacher you're stuck for a long time. But maybe now we can afford the smaller schools because we don't have to invest in the heavy technological materials that they will have liable to have at home or a computer that any almost any school can afford anymore. That we can concentrate on things like good writing and socialization and understanding other human beings. Maybe it's for the very technological it's going to allow us to have a smaller place. Well it's sure nice to see that this technological stuff can serve students well. I think that's definitely true and good writing is good writing whether it's done on a keyboard with a monitor in front of you or whether you pick up a pen and write long hand good writing is going to

be good writing. But I think the offering that the internet can can give students and the wealth of well there's just simply no end to the information that that's available there and as you say Roger that's now available to to whatever size school you're in. You don't have to be in a big school to be hooked up to that and have access to that never ending flow of information. It's astonishing. I've tried to explain what I know about the computer in the web to my folks which is impossible. And Antonia who's my 16 year old daughter is trying to explain to me what she knows about the web which is also impossible. It's incredible what you can do sitting there in front of a screen write to friends in Denmark with instantaneous contact. I look up information if I was the other day on my talk to a website I was remembering a ribbled song that I once learned probably in my college fraternity days barnacle build the sailor. And I thought you know where would I ever find the words

to barnacle build the sailor here it comes on the web you can find anything there it's a strategy. I've had similar experiences and you did you mention wanting to acquaint your your parents with this yes I have the same feeling I I lost my dad a few months ago. He was curious about the internet and one of my regrets is that I didn't get him up to my office and say here it is look well I'm going to get that finished with my mom who still at this point lives out on the farm south of wake in Nebraska. And I want in fact I when I visited her just recently I said I want you to come to Lincoln and come up to my office where we have the internet available and and at least see what the internet is because it's a great mystery to her right now. You know you just reminded me of something that I meant to do and I haven't and that I have a laptop I could bring it to Lincoln and throw it into my folks phone outlet and just do something there. That's I'm going to do that next time doing you talked me into it or reminded me of something I intended to do. The assault on education I think the assault on learning in general

in the state is depressing. I've often thought that what we ought to do is make it very clear to people that if there is no educational system there'll be no football team which I think would probably turn to the ground. That would that would I think do the job but it's also on a national level probably even worse on a national level. How much do the national politics of anti education affect people in Nebraska? I wish I could say not at all but I can't I don't think we need to hang our heads at all about the Nebraska system of education. I've talked about that a little earlier during our conversation we test high in virtually every measure of academic excellence. There are places in the country where they have trouble. There are some inner city schools that have tremendous trouble and I think that rubs off on us. I believe that a researcher by the name of David Berliner who is a strong advocate of public schools says that we do

better in public education than we ever have. I believe that that is true but he also says that there are schools that should be closed I believe that as well. Our harsh critics and we have very harsh critics we being in public education. Look at where the problems exist and somehow I think they've gotten public in general to see that as true of the entire national public education system and Roger that's wrong. That's exactly in the arts community you find one idiotic example of what pretends to be art and then they splash that across the entire art scene and it makes art in general look bad. If I'm a bleeding heart liberal and I've never made any bones about that and I think people probably know that. So when conservatives ask me do you really think the government knows how to spend money better than the American citizen does I always say absolutely there's not doubt in my mind. I've seen what a Nebraska citizen spends money on and it's ridiculous

compared to what I think somebody else ought to be able to do it better. I'm very happy with the school board for Centura they are generally speaking some pretty bright people when issues have come up that make me think oh boy here we go they have handled it very well. But is the local is local control it's almost a catch word in Nebraska oh by God we want our local community control schools is that always a good idea sometimes local school people are not very sophisticated about education education systems teaching the world in general are they really the people to run schools for kids who are going to be launched out into the 21st century. Well local control is a reality in Nebraska at least with curriculum it isn't so much with finances and I know that is the popular conception. But I think a figure the figure of 85 % is pretty much

correct when it comes to the amount of budget that is spent on personnel that doesn't leave much left to control for local school boards. Local school boards do certainly have some tough decisions to make particularly when the budget is tight when when something has to be eliminated eliminated excuse me then a local board is really really in a pinch what part of the program do they eliminate and that's a curricular decision as well as a financial one and it's a very very difficult decision. And occasionally there's some pretty hefty community fights over very that very question. Well I'm sure one of the reasons that I you notice that I said very clearly the centurus school board is doing fine. That's where you live. And if I if I said otherwise someone was going to say well if you know so much what if you run for the school board there's no way I want to face the kind of hard work they do and the kind of criticism they face it's a tough job. And I'm really grateful and not only for the teachers who who do the jobs in the schools but for

the people who work on the boards to to help the schools I mean it's a heroic job and their reward is pretty thin. Well they get to work two three nights a week I think is their reward I couldn't agree more that that is a very difficult job and we need to have people who run for those boards who I know this sounds a little self serving. But shares the same goals as the Nebraska State Education Association of wanting a highly qualified teacher in each classroom which will translate then into excellent student achievement. That's where we're at. When I was at the university and really early on when I was at the university which was twenty some years ago there was a lot of discontent within faculty circles outside of school of education about education as a college that there was so much required of students there in education as opposed to their subject fields.

And the feeling was if somebody's going to teach science or teach English they're training ought to be an English or science and education ought to be a small part of their educational training then for teaching the schools I've been out of the circle now for a long time what is that situation now. Teachers are going to teach in grade seven through twelve by by rule by Nebraska Department of Education rule must have a major in their subject area. K through five a regular major like any other yes along with education courses of course K through five are considered generalists and therefore they do not required to have a degree in their in their subject area that is true of seven through twelve. And as long as we can keep people teaching in their prepared areas that should work that should serve very well and as long as I'm talking about teacher education I'd also like to point out that the sixteen there are

sixteen teacher education institutions in Nebraska fourteen are are credited that's excellent by state state rule again teacher candidates must spend a hundred hours observing a veteran teacher. Then they have fourteen weeks of student teaching which is more than most states require and then following that my organization the NSCA has been very instrumental in getting a mentoring program statewide so that those first year teachers are not left out there to sink or swim so to speak but have a veteran teacher who can help them. So that's terrific yeah and if we can continue to expand that program that again will translate into having a well qualified well prepared teacher in the classroom which translates into student achievement. But that makes it all the clearer it seems to me that when we train somebody through that we sure don't want to lose them to another

state that's paying better I mean we want to keep those kind of people once. And this I know this sounds negative but we literally have states that come and recruit our well prepared teacher candidates from the University of Nebraska Lincoln and I'll just say it's to Texas. In fact one of the things I spotted last year in the Lincoln Journal was an advertisement that a recruiter from I think Houston was setting up camp at the Cornhusker Hotel and arranging interviews with people who would be graduating from our teachers college. Wow that's exporting talent that we don't want to export yeah no we don't. There's been a lot in the papers recently and it's something I don't understand much about and that is the testing of teachers where does the NSCA stand on testing teachers. We are in favor of it as long as it is done by the by the preparing institution by the University or college. There is an experiment going on right now I think it's a two year experiment this is again being

done through the Nebraska Department of Education. On teacher testing we will go through these couple years then the program will be evaluated and see if it translates into having any positive effect on teacher education. And if it does we would be in favor of it if it doesn't seem to make any difference then why do it. And I know teacher testing has been controversial I believe it was in Massachusetts a year or so ago a number of teachers failed the test and there is evidence that the test wasn't really very valid. And maybe that's in states I don't mean to suggest that Massachusetts has trouble in their teacher education but we do a good job now the 16 institutions do. So we're open to experiment I think you always have to be open to experiment. But not necessarily will it end up being anything that helps in our teacher preparation which I would contend is in good shape as it stands right now. Well the conversation went

way faster than I wanted it to Dwayne thank you very much for coming by. You've answered a lot of questions where you still have another page here that haven't been answered but we'll have to try it again. My thanks to you the people of the Nebraska State Education Association but also to all those teachers out there because it's a tough job and all too often it's a thankless job and I'm grateful for what they've done for me and my family and are still doing. I've got a kid out there at Centura who's enjoying I think a superb Nebraska education so thank you for being here. Thank you for giving me the opportunity and thank you for being here too I hope you'll join me here again next week and I'll introduce you to another fascinating person from this wonderful place called Nebraska. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.