Carla Eckels interview with Dr. Susan Cool

I was the first African American woman to be elected of a pastorate of an American Baptist Church. So, there's a lot of history. There's the oldest church and then the first woman coming in, so there's a lot of stuff going on. Oh, I bet I can imagine. Just to think of it, especially a Baptist Church, would you say that I think the numbers are growing, but it certainly isn't to the point where you would say it's 50-50 between men and women preachers? No, not at all. In all terms of leadership of the pulpit, no, it's still very small, probably about 10%. So, we've got some rooms to grow, and certainly this is my 24th year of ministry, so I've been doing a lot of mentoring and I really feel led to help establish churches for women who have the gift to these churches. So, that's going to be kind of like my next phase of ministry. My goodness, can you give us a bit of your history if you would? There's so many things that you have done incredibly well, and that's why I think this whole session on Two Blessed Be Stress will help us all, because you have really accomplished a great deal. Could you tell us a little bit about your history?

Well, my first career, actually, at my graduate of Columbia University, my first master's actually was in educational, technology, and theater and speech. I went to Emerson College in Boston, and I actually was headed for Hollywood, and I was a speech and theater and television major, and my first job out of college was a television studio. So, my first career ended up being a TV producer for five years, and in my fifth year started really dealing with the call to ministry, so I was taking seminary courses by night and doing television by day, and then I persisted for five years. I also, in the midst of that, did an acting company, musical theater that toured and did educational theater in classrooms, helping children to read using the arts, and so I had some very exciting kind of careers that were parallel, and they led into my ministry, which I began as a senior pastor in 1983, so this is my 24-year pastoring. And I've been very fortunate to not have to be by a vocational, I've been very fortunate to be a full-time pastor, but out of it, so many opportunities have grown, I've been

able to teach at Harvard University at the Divinity School, been an officer at Harvard, I've had an opportunity to do television and ministry, and just last year started touring with Bishop T.D. Jakes, and a program called God Bleeding Ladies, and we've gone around the country with empowerment seminars to really help people get to their next professional level, and next week I'll be doing one of my own New York City called Blessed to Be Stress Success Seminar, and so it's been very much part of my fabric to help people who have a dream, who have a goal to help them realize that, and so in various ways, ministry for me is not just in the pulpit, but it's through the workshops, like I'm going to do in Kansas, it's through the seminars, I do a Bishop Jakes, and others, through my teaching, so wherever I can really touch people and to help make a difference, I've been fortunate to be at the table, I was at the White House in 93, 94 as a White House fellow with President Clinton, and out of that got seven years with government working with HUD, and being

on the President's initiative on race and traveling all over the country, that has an exciting life. It's very multifaceted, multi-dimensional, and in a midst of that got married, had two sons, a husband, and saw my mother, a minister, a mentor, and I'm on the move, so all those ailments. It's so true, and you know what, it's a talk to you talked about Bishop Jakes and traveling with him. Can you tell us, what were some of the concerns that you faced, or what women were, what was on the hearts of women as you toured the country with Jakes? Well, you know, women, first of all, are an exciting audience. Many come with brokenness, you know, whether that's from bad relationships or broken relationships in the past. Many come because they may have had aspirations for corporate America or other places, and if you don't have the right mentor, someone who really opens the door and kind of takes you under their wing, you can get very damaged in those situations. And so many came with a lot of bruises in terms of I wanted, I had this dream, but nobody

helped me get on my feet. And so what we were doing was we became the dream makers in a sense, and we kind of helped put people back together again, I guess the opposite of Humsey Dumsey, and we tried to put people back together in terms of building their scene, building their confidence. We had people, you know, ready to fly. And I think that was, you know, just mentoring is a big piece of it because if you don't have someone who kind of zeroes in on you, whatever the profession, whether it's ministry or corporate America or nursing or being a doctor, whatever the profession you've chosen, someone has to kind of help you get a break. And that doesn't always happen easily for women because most of the, you know, the professions have been traditionally male-led and male-dominated. And so even coming into ministry, you know, I've been very fortunate, they've been older men who took me under their wing because they weren't that many women pastoring, so I didn't have someone who could kind of say, here's the rope, you know, let me teach them. So I've had to become the teacher of the rope. And I just made a new book, it's called The Sisters Rules for Ministry.

And so women who really have a calling on their life who feel they want to move into church leadership, the things I've learned them on the way. So my writing has been kind of experience. So 24 years of non-stop theater, just movement and wonderful, I'm getting ready to, as soon as I finish this on workshop in Kansas, I'm going on a six month sabbatical. And it'll be time for me to have renewal and reflecting after I've poured out so much. And that's something else we're going to talk about, how do you take breaks? And that's a very important part of the journey. I am so glad you brought that up because to think about taking breaks, who can? I mean, you mentioned even in your book about trying to take a month off at one point. And the fact is I would think a number of women would say, it's just me, say those that are single parents or, you know, I just don't, I cannot take a break. I have to, you know, continue to go on because who's going to put the bread on the table if you will? Who's going to take care of all that needs to be taken care of? I think a lot of times women feel like it's really up to them. Well, how would you respond to them?

I would say you can't afford not to. You know, you have to prepare for your breaks and a large part of the work stuff is going to be dealing with preparation and boundaries. And you'd be surprised how if you reprioritize some of the things you're doing, that you can find a 20-minute, like it's no 30 days in a row, but you have to plan for at least 30 minutes. Don't wait 30 minutes, you know, and build up. But you know, you have to because the consequences of not doing it are, you know, women are having strokes younger, women are developing all kinds of body disease, particularly breast cancer and other areas of cancer. And one of the things that Bishop Jake was really a blessing to my life, we were able to develop a workbook based on the work stuff we did, and that's now performed in a book that's called Balancing Your Life, and the subtitles God's Plan for Your Hope in a Future. The God wants you to have hope, and God wants you to have a future, but you've got to learn how to do life balance. And so I'm going to be leaving a lot of that into the work stuff, and I really hope women

will come and really not just hear me, but heed so you're right because it works and people's lives have been turned around as a result of what we've done. Well, I must share with you that I understand how this all came about, was a Sunday school teacher had read your book, she was excited about it, talked to her class about it, and they read excerpts and so forth, and they, someone got the dream. They said, why don't we try to see if we can get Dr. Cook to come to Augusta? And so, you know, we all will be recipients of that wonderful blessing. Again, if you just tuned in, we want you to know that we're talking to Reverend Dr. Susan Johnson Cook, who will be in Augusta coming up May the 1st at 830 at 1st Baptist Church. You don't want to miss it. It will be a blessed time. She is the author of the book, too blessed to be stressed, and that will be the title of her seminar. Now, I must tell you as a gospel announcer, Dr. Cook, I was thrilled to read all the various gospel songs that you weed through this book. Why did you decide to do that? Well, you know, I mean a lot, part of my tradition is that we sing our way through joy and silence and suddenly through storm.

And I think that what's very helpful in going through, going for the wholeness is some of the familiar tunes that have helped our soul to heal in the past. And so, I have some traditional hymns in there. I've got some spirituals. I've got the songs that have really, that I've sung, you know, do this various seasons. And there are seasons of life, you know, and you have to be able to weave through them, bounce back and rebound from them. I just recently lost my mother and it's a very different season for me, you know, being the first time without my real mentor in my life. And so, how do you make it? And some of the things that I do is I sing my way through the rough times, the grieving times. And so, the songs are very important. And I think as we go forward, you know, people talk about, you know, breakthroughs and about this contemporary, having a contemporary voice. But what is very important is that we have some of the tradition and the legacies that have been left for us and that we hold on to our rootedness as we grow, you know, my

grandmother and my aunt, one of my parents is to send us the south for the summer, some maternal grandparents and all of our sisters. And what was so great was that they would tell us the history of our people, you know, and so, I knew that I came, where I came from. And so, as I went forward and I had my dreams, I knew that I also represented a whole lot of people who were cheering for me, who could not make it, but who had left the best trail that they could blaze for me to walk on. And so, that I owed it not just to myself and to God, but also to them to make it. Yes. And like you said, I mean, having that family, having the history, knowing, you know, I think that's so key to how we're able to be successful now, you know, and I'm thinking about two, those that are listening, a lot of folks, just have a sense, they feel like they don't have a sense of direction. If you could speak to that a bit, Dr. Cook, in that, you know, I've talked to some women as of late, some that are, you know, not employed, there are others who are just feeling like

they're in a job, but not a career, I really need a sense of direction, will that be something you'll be talking about as well? Without question, and part of, particularly not being employed with those who are working and feeling like kind of aimless or wandering without a goal, part of what needs to happen is to stop for reflection. And because a lot of times women are overwhelmed and burdened and exhausted, you know, just plain flat exhausted from juggling so many balls. And part of what helps give clarity is to stop. And whether that's getting lost for a day like in, you know, a city like New York, you know, sometimes I think just taking a half a day and taking into a hotel room and no one knows where you are, no one, you know, you still having a band in your family, but you're also being really good to yourself. And you know, the spa is taking a half day, a pair of bring yourself, having a pedicure or a manicure, where some attention is placed on you and you're not just on the giving end, but you're on the receiving end.

That's an important part of clarification of your goals and developing goals. When you're exhausted, you wander aimlessly, you know, you lose things. And the other day I was like beyond my limit. And things that would normally take me two or three minutes were taking me two hours or three hours. I would put things down and have to come back to it because I was literally too tired to function. So my aim and my cure for that night was, I got like, not just my eight hours, I got like 10 hours sleep. And I was able to bounce back the next day and really had a whole lot of things I could accomplish, you know, because I had rested and that doesn't happen for women all the time because we have so much on us, but I'm going to help us to make ourselves a priority. Since this is radio, could you give us a sense of describe your church in the atmosphere? I'm just trying to give our listeners an opportunity kind of, you know, as you share your ministry, what you do each and every Sunday morning. Oh, well, we are in a dynamic, spirit-filled church. It's a Bronx Christian Fellowship where I'm privileged to pastor, it's about 500 families

in the northeast section of the Bronx, New York, in New York, there's several boroughs which are like cities and other places. So the Bronx is a very unique borough, it has a lot of water, a lot of land. And we have a stone church that holds about 350 people and we make it as exciting as possible. We Sunday mornings usually myself and my team of leaders arrive about 630 in the morning and we prepare, you know, make sure the sanctuary is prepared and all the things we have out meeting to make sure that everything that we hope to have accomplished the past week has been done and we give reports and updates so that as the people come, we can receive them and we'll be on one accord. At 7 a.m., we usually have prayer at the altar and about 50 or 60 people gather and that really prepares the sanctuary for worship. So by 8 a.m., when we come to worship, it's explosive. People have been prayed for, people have been praying and so people kind of enter, it's a lot of young families.

Many of the parents in the 30s and 40s who are in for the first time having children, and many who for the first time are having a relationship with Christ. So it's a church of a lot of new Christians. So it makes people, you know, they come in hungry, they come in excited because so teaching and worship become very central to our church, we have a lot of teaching that goes on a lot of worship, a lot of music, both contemporary, traditional, and you know, a lot of the standard hymns because I grew up him singing, I grew up in the Presbyterian and Baptist churches, but my parents were by, I guess you call it by religion, we have different faiths in our homes. And so we went to both churches and the church was always a very fun experience for me, and so we create very much an extended family community where people are responsible to one another and for one another. So if a person joins our church, they get what we call a first friend, someone who's already been in the congregation, who can help them navigate the new orders, you know, how to read the program, where we are at in the service, call them, see what their needs

are. And so what happens, we develop a community. That is absolutely awesome, and now what is it that you do at Hampton? I'm the first female president of the Hampton University Ministers Conference, it's about 10,000 African-American clergy from all over the world. And we come together for a week, the very first week, full week of June, on the source of Hampton University, which is a historically black college in Hampton, Virginia. And it's a week of renewal and education and inspiration for preachers, and it began as an institute where preachers, many who could not go to seminary, would come in the season preachers, would teach them just the practical stuff of the faith, you know, how they build their churches, what works for them. And so we have continued that tradition, it's just on a much larger scale. We bring in the best and the brightest from all over the world, who our peers and colleagues have deemed as the leadership, you know, who have kind of risen to the top from just faithful work and service.

And we have them before the body for a full week, and they basically say they're stories of what works for them, you know, sometimes it's administrative things that people are looking for. Sometimes it's worship things, it's like you ask me, what do we do? Sometimes it's prayer shifts. And what we do is we put all that together and people come and whatever you need, something within that week feeds you. You get something within that week. So it's kind of just personal and yet it's a collective teaching. And by the end of the week, we leave together from communion and preachers are able to go out and then give back to the congregations, because preachers get tired too. You know, and it's very important to have a time for preachers to stop. So that's our Mecca, in a sense, that's where we come from, pilgrimages. We gather together from seminarians all the way to bishops and, you know, heads of denominations to students. And everybody is collective, there's no big eyes, no little use, everyone is one. And we're learning from one another. So I've been going for 23 years and last year was my fortune and blessing to have the

body elect me as their president. So it's a four-year term and this is now my second hampton that I'm going into in June. So I'm about halfway through. I'm almost over the hump. Oh, it was me. But it was so wonderful because last year Karina Scott King and Dr. Darcy Hyde and Carol Mosley-Born, a lot of the historical first African-American women, Carol Mosley-Born was one of the first African-American U.S. Senator and Dr. Darcy Hyde was one of the civil rights leader. We call it one of the big 60s at the table with Dr. Martin Luther King and Whitney Young. And then Karina Scott King was the widow, is the widow of Dr. Martin Luther King. And all of them came to stand with me as I kind of took my new role and it was just one of the wonderful moments in history that I could never have planned for. But they also we want to be with you and then the men embraced me and said, look, you're all leader now. And so they call me Madam President. And it's wonderful. I love it. I'm having a ball.

Would you talk a little bit more about that because there are a lot of women who are contemplating going into ministry. I mean, receiving the call but maybe are a bit, you know, not sure, you know, about that calling and really are concerned about it being so male dominated and wondering how they'll be received. In fact, Dr. Cook, I think when my husband was in seminary, there were 40% women at the time that were going into seminary and then they had a lot of challenges from time to time. In fact, some pulpits, the women were not received. Right. And that still happens not as much as any more me because most of the major seminaries more than 50% are women. The key is placement. When you finish seminary, you have these gifts, you have a call like, and where do you go? You know, men are called very quickly. Some not even with the seminary degrees, their churches, their pastors. So that's kind of, you know, women, it's a slower task and so, you know, that's only time is going to change. That you're talking about something that's over 200 years old, you know, in terms of most of the major denominations. And you're talking about, you know, it has been male dominated, experience and time and

faith, you know, and the combination of those and being prepared when the door opens. Sometimes women have to start churches and, you know, my second church is a new church. The one that I'm currently passing is what they call a church plan. I started it from the ground up. And that's what I hope to help women do is I, you know, create this movement, this Christian fellowship movement of helping women who have gifts and who are prepared, who want a pastor. How do we help get them on their feet? And that's going to be one of the tasks that I'm going to be committed to for the next century. Reverend Dr. Susan Johnson Cook, who will be speaking in Augusta, coming up May 1st at 830 at 1st Baptist Church. The topic, too, blessed to be stressed. Now you have to tell us how do you balance your family as well as your ministry because as you mentioned, you're married and you have two sons. How do you, how are you able to work that all in? Well, part of that's going to be at the workshop, but I would just say you have to make wise choices. So I have to realize, no matter what, the mother and the wife is critical to the house structure, the family structure.

And so if I'm away a whole long time, I come back and you know, it looks like, oh my God, the family has hit home. What is it? Spear ribs in the bed. I remember being in the bed. You know, stuff in the bathtub is not supposed to be there and you know, just you feel a sense of chaos because mine has been away, not that they can't put their clothes away, not that they can't help with the dishes, but it's just they don't think you know. And so you come back and you're like, oh no, I can't be going too long because it's just too overwhelming. So I make wise choices very rarely do I do a week long, anything, you know, it would have to be just like, God, dumps out from the mountain and say, do this, but so I have to say, okay, when I've had too much of a load, just stop or just say no. And learning to say, you know, thank you for the invitation, but I can't accept it at this time. I'll be happy to find someone else, recommend someone else, I'll call Carla and Kansas is great at this, but really learning how to say no and also sharing, sharing some of it with other people.

That is really good to hear because I think that's what we have to real, as you just said, know that when you call what to do and then when to say no and if a door shuts, that's okay, you know. Okay, really just live with that decision and that accident and that how you arrive there and not go back, you know, once you said, okay, I close the store, shut it and let a new chapter begin. I'm trying to go with the flow, like you talked about, you know, you got to do my whole book. This is the workshop. God, you don't have to come out on May 1st. And see, that's my final question to you, Dr. Craig, I do need to, if you would share with us again, if you just tune in, we are talking to Reverend Dr. Susan Johnson Cook, it's just been pleasurable. And I must say to you that a dear friend of mine who lives in Nashville heard you, I don't know if it was in Atlanta, not too long ago. I know she mentioned that, she was, because I told her that you were coming to Augusta. And she said, Carla, she is awesome, you have got to go, make sure you go. She said, and take everybody you can with you. So I said, we're taking our ladies at our church and we're going to get as many people as

we can because she said, you know, she's phenomenal, you will be glad that you did. So thank you. Well, we're going to have copies of two blessed to be stressed by autographed copies and the new book balance in your life. So I do encourage you to come and get those and also hear the word stop on participates because these are really the tools women need to really be successful. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Cook, we look so forward to you coming. Thank you. I'm looking forward to being there and, you know, just tracing me round trip. I said, don't just give me the kids, just give me back home and, you know, just keep us in place for our workshop that's coming up here in New York. So people are coming from about five different states and we're just really just trying to be a blessing to the body of Christ. So thank you for having me.