Biography Hawaiʻi; Maiki Aiu Lake; Interview with Kalena Silva 11/16/01 #2

from Ka'u and Puneh and perhaps other parts of the big island who migrated who worshipped her because she was a part of their family. My family is from way and now we don't worship Pele so we don't count her as our deity we don't but being involved with the Hula I learned about Pele and learned dances and chants and poems and so on prayers to her. Well I think you talk about that you have to talk about families and you have to talk about individuals and I could do that but I think it's better if if somebody like Pat baking would have talked about that because she had personal experience because I think she was born in 1818 19 20 she's about 81 now I think I think she's 81 yeah so okay so maybe we could just well it's fresh in our minds go to request to elaborate on Ka'u and I okay well Hula Ka'u and Hula I want to are the two major styles of

Hula that we see performed in Hula today and they're basically a response to people's desire these days to put a label on what they think is ancient so called and modern so called and in fact in the 1930s I think the terms Hula Ka'iko and Hula Iwana began to be printed in English language newspapers in Hawaii so the use of these terms is not very old because you know the old days why Hula was very dynamic and there wasn't the same sense of difference in style based on age necessarily so I think because of the association of Hula Ka'iko with more traditional forms instruments local styles movement costuming and people say well we'll call that Hula Ka'iko and yet a lot of

this a lot of what is called Hula Ka'iko is very much acculturated and what people are calling Hula Iwana today generally is the kind of Hula that's accompanied by Western instruments and Native instruments as well and that has that uses costuming that is more Western and that's more creative I suppose in some ways using different kinds of styles and not just sort of the kind of Hula Ka'iko attire or costuming that people associate with this kind of dancing today which of course again is is not the the ancient we have dressing you know the tapah pa upa uwa as well but then another another difference is that the kind of singing that takes place the vocal production that accompanies the Hula that is melodic usually tuned for whereas the Hula Ka'iko is accompanied

by chanting so those kinds of differences present themselves and yet there are portions with the two sort of blend and overlap a little bit I think and I would say that from or I mean if you look at it really sort of strictly or carefully a lot of what we call Hula Ka'iko today isn't I mean it's I mean in the truest I mean if you say the Hula Ka'iko is the kind of dancing that Hawaiians did prior to Captain Cook's coming or at the time of Captain Cook I think what we're seeing today is is mostly not that so no so Ka'iko is a Ka'iko meaning ancient or old is certainly a relative term I think do you think that changes in tradition are this is one of those really great questions I'm so sorry this is a humanities question you're gonna make my brain

rattle around a little bit more okay I think it depends on the kind of change and I think it's very important that that Hawaiians today remember and I remind myself constantly that as I perform I'm also a catalyst for change and preservation and I think that it's important to remember and I include myself in that to remember that change is gonna come no matter what consciously and unconsciously and it has to I believe if the culture the cultural practices and this performing art called Hula is to survive it has to change because the constant influences around Hula that are affecting it Hula it doesn't exist in a vacuum it is constantly affected by people's thinking by people's experiences and our thinking and our experiences have changed incredibly

since well over the past 200 years and so Hula has reflected that change and it has to it has to otherwise it's no longer meaningful to Hawaiians so I don't think that change necessarily is degradation although it can be if it's not done within a or not done with respect for traditional knowledge native indigenous knowledge and perspectives world view I think that's very important what is the relationship between chance or poetry and dance they're they're joined at the hip I mean they're just totally one cannot well chanting can exist without Hula but Hula cannot exist without chanting we don't have abstract or pure dance so-called abstract or pure dance in Hawai'i Hawaiians you

know the idea is totally foreign to us so that movement is directed by the meaning found within the poetry so they are inextricably entwined you know during this time that Mrs. Montgomery was teaching Mikey in an end in the 30s you know the decade before I guess Mikey was learning at the end of the 40s but during that time period in the 30s and the 40s how do you think Hawaiians reconciled or did not reconcile their Christian beliefs with Hula well I mean I can I would base whatever beliefs I have on people I've talked to in my own family and because I wasn't around in the 40s I hadn't I wasn't born yet but it

seems to me that one of the important sort of threads that moved through the Hula at that time had actually been made or crafted even before that time and I think it has to do with the Hawaiian I think it exists among Hawaiians even today it has to do with a Hawaiian tenet maybe or belief this core belief that there's good to be found in everything and so when for example the Christian missionaries came they brought Jehovah God and so in those early days the Hawaiians at the time as far as we know cling to or clung to many of the old deities but then placed Jehovah this new God along with them seeing that he

had some value as did Aumaku for example family deities that continued to be worship even after the sort of state religion was overthrown in 1819 with Kanye the major four gods Kanye Kuhlono and Kanaloah being deposed if you will or or put aside so I think that there's this core belief among Hawaiians that if you look closely enough you'll find something good in everything and again I forget what was going with this what was this one of them did you think was it those are the big credits I think so yeah I guess it seems like some some people work oh okay I think I remember what you are what you're saying go ahead yeah you know she adapted things yeah and some people couldn't I think what she did

was a very Hawaiian thing and that a lot of people perhaps not Hawaiians would say well I am now a Christian so I can't have anything to do with this past culture but I think it was a very Hawaiian thing and Mrs. Montgomery's time and it continues to be a very Hawaiian thing even now among a lot of Hawaiians and that is you have this under this this way of being that you're able to incorporate with other ways of being and there doesn't have to be black and white it's not black and white in fact all the time so although Mrs. Montgomery was a Christian she recognized that there was value there was there were good aspects to traditional knowledge and she sought to to maintain that as far as you know was this an issue with Mikey her Christian beliefs and her that's a very good question her dedication to art form that basically had another

religious space yes you know in her younger days when she was teaching us and re-graduated in 1972 she was younger than she was in her late 40s I think and perhaps more idealistic and so I because I I saw that at the time although a Christian minister was invited to our Uniki at Ulumau Village in he a still the rituals and much of the the ceremonial ritualistic aspects of the the Uniki were very much grounded in traditional practices with traditional prayers and the rest and subsequently at Uniki's that I went to her subsequent two hours in 1972 I noticed an increasing Christian presence and influence and I think I'm not sure but I think it was because of dissent or big not because of

dissent but because of negative kinds of comments she was getting from the Hawaiian community who thought she was going too far and that some of the things she was doing especially with our Uniki which was the first in 1972 I think some of the Hawaiian community were they weren't supportive because they thought that we were going back to old practices which could lead to no good and because subsequent to our Uniki I noticed and even in the Hala we would go to to the Hala to visit and I would notice the Lord's Prayer written actually stitched I think someone had actually stitched it and placed it on the we never saw any of that the Christian element wasn't was definitely not as strong as it appeared to become to me after our time and this was so then this was into the late 70s and into into the early 80s when she passed until she

passed away I think it became stronger because she felt somehow and again this is just my own opinion but I think that she saw that perhaps there were elements in the Hawaiian community that weren't going to support her in this and so she did not want to and that perhaps she rethought it and thought that maybe she had gone too far that's just my own personal opinion based on the Christian elements that I saw increasingly in her performances and Uniki and so on later you think she went too far no I don't I don't and in fact and again this is my own personal opinion I thought that the Christian influences it's hard for me to say this I but I personally think that they they detracted from from what she was doing to a certain extent toward the end because the focus became much more it had always been spiritual I think because from Myiki

Hula was was life it was it was a connection with the divine but I think that because of this that the Christian sort of influences that sort of predominated toward the end it took away from some of the I'm not even sure how to say this from some of the work that she had done previously with us in terms of sort of bringing to life for us these this old knowledge about mythological characters like Pele and Hiyaka and Ho Poi and Kamapo and all of these people when you're in a Christian context somehow that that becomes relegated to a lesser inferior position and instead of being sort of equal in some way and so I think that sort of is what happened this this criticism that arose you know was thinking that she went too far and in exploring that kind of

knowledge where do you think that distress arises what do you think that distress arises from in the Hawaiian community because I've seen that too well I mean it's deep-seated in many parts of the Hawaiian community and it results from the the Christianization of Hawaiians which in a days back as you know to 1820 and to this idea that traditional knowledge religion included would hold us back as a people and that in order for us to fully assimilate or to succeed in this new culture and this new society those things were no longer appropriate and I think this idea that Hawaiian native Hawaiian religion could again play a part in our society our modern society was

threatening to some Hawaiian people or if not threatening some of the the old Hawaiians perhaps thought that it was futile or useless in this new world that we were living in and and not applicable to this new world and that you know it's sort of that Mike you should sort of leave sleeping dogs let them lie you know just not awaken these forces that I think perhaps some of the older people thought she didn't know what to do with subject personal question about what because I want to know I think but do you think that a lot of that kind of attitude was the result of the disappointment and sort of defeat that Hawaiians felt around the time of the overthrow that

sort of put it all to bed kind of it's not talk about it anymore and now you know you know we can't go through that again yeah I just there's just too much hurt there there's just way too much hurt I'm trying to remember specific situations with specific information she had for us but she it's true she she was able to Mike he was able to well she was able to move people with her words with her she had she had something that is difficult to describe

really you can't really describe what it is she had she had an extraordinary ability to move people toward the good I think and that really was to her credit and one of the one of the way she was able to do it I think was being able to touch people's hearts and she did that like almost no one else I can think of and you know people today especially perhaps in academic circles tend to shy away from emotional you know sorts of considerations and and that sort of thing but I think Mike he was able to combine a great respect for knowledge with an incredible emotional intensity that people around her were able to sense feel taste just incredible and so she was able to do that by in all sorts of ways and to remain cogent while crying for example I remember what

we were in the hallou and she felt that we weren't performing up to expectation her expectations in terms of of doing the kinds of things she expected of us in our training and I remember her basically giving us a good balling out scolding us but while also crying and and that sort of combination of this this anger that she felt because we weren't responding to the training properly and carrying out our responsibilities and combined with this anger combined with this sadness expressed in a way that if it had come from anyone else I think people would have been turned off and they would have said this woman is nuts you know she really is expecting too much of us and she's having an emotional outburst we need to let her go and just but you everybody

was just I think we were just all of us awestruck by how her very core she was expressing all of this and somehow she was able to make us feel that to our very core and this ability of hers to do that I think was extraordinary could you tell us who Mary Kavanaugh who he was and why she was oh no is this for the mainland audience oh my gosh oh you do okay well I just Mary Kavanaugh Pukui was the preeminent Hawaiian scholar of the 20th century without any question and although she had what some may consider very little formal academic training and background she had an incredible curiosity that combined with an extreme intelligence that allowed her to do the kind of

work that she did interviewing people and researching in Hawaiian archives I think toward the end that is toward the end of Mikey's life she became a much more important figure for Mikey than she had previously certainly when we were studying with her in the early 70s Kavanaugh Pukui was an important part of Mikey's life I remember in 1971 I was given a scholarship from KCC and radio station to study chanting because they were trying to revitalize chanting in order to develop more chanters for the alohui court at the time and so I received this scholarship and along with the scholarship received the chant from the

committee the alohui cultural committee which was headed by or at least a which was of which Mrs. Pukui was a part and Mrs. Pukui gave to the committee who gave to me a piece of poetry, chanted poetry that was to be done when the court processed and so I showed this to Mikey first and said you know I have this scholarship to study and I've been given this chant but I'm not really sure what to do with it and she said go to Kavanaugh Pukui because she's on that committee and she's the one who is suggesting that you know you learn this chant go to her and she'll tell you about it so I called her up Mrs. Pukui one day and really you know she just she sounded like my two two she was just so sweet and so gentle and so open and at the time I knew enough Hawaiian to carry on a conversation with her and I think she liked that and so she told me

about the chant explained to me its background and some of its Kavanaugh some of its hidden meaning and so that's how I learned about that chant and I think it's because I would not have called her if Mikey hadn't told me to do that and I really think that it was because of the two having a relationship part of my calling that I did so it all did you do you know anything about you know that I guess I should prep this question is going to be about you know dancing in Waikiki in the 30s and the 40s now I know you weren't there but do you know do you have any idea how these dancers in the 30s that somehow are serious dancers too you know who are down in Waikiki dancing yeah yeah you'll only know what you're

sitting there yeah how do you think those serious dancers felt about dancing in Waikiki do you think they felt that their integrity was being degraded when they went there I don't think so I really don't think that they thought that they're they were lowering themselves in any way debasing themselves by doing that I think that part of its stems from the fact that this whole sort of comic-cooler thing that Yolani Luheni for example the famous dancer was involved in while she was studying more serious forms of Hula this whole comic-cooler thing that she was involved in in Waikiki and other parts for tourists and the rest I think that this whole genre of comic-coolers is an old one I mean comic-coolers were found in ancient times and so they're part of the culture and I think the extension of this genre to tourists and people from

outside of Hawaiian outside of Hawaiian society was just sort of another Hawaiian way of welcoming people making them feel comfortable extension of hospitality because at that time in the 30s the I don't think tourists were viewed in the same way as perhaps they are today in Hawaii which unfortunately is maybe sometimes as sort of a cash crop if you will and and even sort of a burden sometimes I think on the Hawaiian population who see sort of this onslaught from abroad as being sort of tedious you know but in the 30s and the 40s and 50s and in those in those days Hawaiians were still very much wanting to welcome people from other shores and so dancing for visitors at a hotel or at a Luau at a hotel or in some other sort of tourist venue wasn't something that was debasing but it was an extension of hospitality I

think at the time do you think those are issues today for cultural practitioners that perform or demonstrate in the visitor industry do you think there are any kind I should be phrased like I wrote it it's better okay are there ethical or ethical issues that cultural practitioners need to address today if they're if they happen to be performing or or demonstrating to the visitor industry I think it'd be best for you to ask somebody like Robert Kesinger or Ley Nala I need because I sort of have this this I'm not sure what to call it but this sort of outsiders view in a way or even a I want to call it privilege position because it's not it's not privileged but it's a different sort of standpoint that I might view some of this this performing material who lion chanting in the rest because I don't need to do it for a living and these

people do Hawaiian performers those that are notable and those that are not many of them do it because they enjoy doing it they love to do it but also because it's a it's a means to make a living and I don't do that and but I imagine though just from sort of an observer's viewpoint that there are all kinds of questions that come up for Hawaiian performers who participate or perform in the in venues that cater to tourists or that are not Hawaiian and I'm sure they have a lot of hard questions to ask themselves constantly about repertoire selection about costuming about catering to perceived tourist choices preferences or likes and dislikes and all the rest and I and I think that that probably has that goes a long way towards shaping the repertoire

that they perform in those venues it'd be interesting to find out how differently they might perform at a backyard party or for aunties you know Lual or whatever probably very different in some instances and maybe not so different in others I wonder if the performers in the 30s and 40s they change shape