1997 Gubernatorial debate ; 1997: Gub Debate WPU - Whitman - McGreevy - Sabrin

Oh yeah. You ready. Right. We're in this together. Hello and welcome to the Shea Center for the Performing Arts on the campus of the William Paterson University. This is the third and final televised debate for New Jersey's three gubernatorial candidates. Let me introduce them to you right now. They are Republican incumbent Christie Todd Whitman Democrat Jim McGreevey and libertarian

candidate Murray Saverin. Our first round of questions we'll deal with the economy the order of questioning was agreed to in advance. Joining me here Larry Kane of K Y W TV in Philadelphia. Larry thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. First let me introduce our distinguished panel of journalists to you tonight. Diane Haynes is the associate publisher of the North Jersey newspapers company. Diane welcome. Next to Diane is reporter Anthony Johnson from 10:10 WINS radio. Theresa Crowley is an anchor and reporter for WCBS News Radio 88. And of course news to political correspondent Marcia Kramer will begin our debate with a question for Senator McGreevey. Marcia McGreevey your pledge to reduce car insurance rates by 10 percent on the day you're sworn in. Is that worst unconstitutional and at best grandstanding because court suits will present any action for months and possibly years. But how about trying something that you might be able to do immediately. How about promising to

temporarily eliminate or reduce costs on New Jersey turnpikes and parkways just for New Jersey residents to Garden State drivers some financer relief until you can get meaningful auto insurance reform through the legislature. Well. The basic question as to who is going to be the next governor. The question is which governor which individual can best be responsible. The governor's most recent advertisement says she knows that we are hurting. She recognizes that property taxes and auto insurance is a problem. Governor there's been a problem for four years now in the last week of a campaign the governor recognizes that New Jersey is hurting. It's about having a governor who is willing to accept the responsibility. This governor said auto insurance is the responsibility of the legislature. Property tax is the responsibility of Mayors. And what's happened on car insurance. This government will authorize 12 increases. We are spending a billion dollars

more for auto insurance and on property taxes our property taxes have gone up by two billion dollars and now we have $10 billion of debt. Thank you very much. During the debate each candidate gets one minute to answer and then 30 seconds for rebuttal We begin with Governor Whitman. Answer your question. The problem with. The tolls off the turnpike has to do with the bond covenants and the bond holders and the legal obligation that we have to those bondholders. In fact I wanted to take them off for one weekend because we had such a huge weekend. Such a good summer season this summer. But you know my opponent once again is talking about his plan for auto insurance which is at best a fraud. No one is going to see a penny of relief. I've signed nine pieces of legislation dealing with auto insurance and he's even voted against some of the most egregious outrages that we have corrected. Mr. Saverin your rebuttal. The regulation is sweeping the world. Privatization is sweeping the world. And here in New

Jersey we're still trying to figure out how the government can micromanage and in fact mismanaged auto insurance industry. It's time for a change. It's called deregulation increases free market competition and lowers auto insurance rates. We've had the same thing happen in the long distance telephone service. Rates are down 40 50 60 percent. The same thing can happen with auto insurance. It's time for a change. No more gimmicks no more government involvement. OK our next question is for Governor Whitman It comes from Diane he's get to bear witness your opponents have been hammering away at you for that $2.8 billion bond issue which was used in part to balance the budget. Why do you think this plan will help the fiscal soundness of New Jersey. Well first of all it's important to understand that almost 90 percent of the debt that we have to deal with the unfunded liability was caused with four votes that my opponent cast extending pension benefits with no way to pay for them. We came into that situation we have now secured our pension funds so it's the most secure in

the nation and we have saved today's taxpayers our children and our grandchildren. Forty seven billion dollars. We had an obligation that those who like to spend without coming up with the monies to do it had gotten us into. We have secured that now and we have saved future taxpayers billions of dollars. And in fact we're able to help give back some property tax relief money to municipalities. And although my opponent keeps hammering me on it there were three bills that dealt with that pension proposal. He voted for two out of the three. Mr. Saverin. Contributions to pension plan should be funded with current expenditures you fund your 401k plan with your current income. The government should do the same thing when it has an obligation to its workers to fund its pension plan. On a page you go basis. No one takes out a second mortgage to pay that for their pension plan. Government should not do the same thing and incur this huge debt. When I'm governor we will pay down the debt by selling off some of the state assets so we can have fiscal responsibility once again in Trenton.

Senator McGreevey. I believe the governor is being disingenuous. The governor raided the pension fund and the amount of 2.8 billion dollars that was this governor's actions that caused the problems. Then the governor went to Wall Street to borrow $2.8 billion. Except now we're going to be spending seven and a half billion dollars of interest. That's 10 billion dollars of debt. Not for a single road or bridge or schoolhouse. That is the legacy of this governor's actions. Indeed it was Senator Bob Watteau the Republican chairman of the Appropriations Committee who called this governor's actions fiscally immoral. This governor's legacy is mountains of crippling debt. Next question from Teresa Craughwell a question for Mr. Saverin. Mr. Saverin you have faith in the free market is heartening but I checked with independent insurance brokers to find out what would happen if we took your suggestion and threw off all government controls on auto insurance. And they said rates would rise for urban areas. They would drop for the suburbs and about 30 percent of the people would drive around without insurance. So

we have chaos now but it seems like that would be every man for himself that would plunge us into the kind of chaos we had in the Soviet Union when that was broken up. Well if that's the case Teresa that we should go back to socializing the whole economy. What we need is give people a choice as to what coverage they would like to have for their auto insurance coverage the government the people in government as good as they are are not smart enough to determine for several million New Jersey drivers what is the appropriate policy for them. What we need is freedom freedom to choose which policy is most appropriate for urban drivers suburban drivers and road Roberston. There is no justification for the government to subsidize urban drivers at the expense of rural and suburban drivers. There's no justification whatsoever. What we need is to allow the market to function because when the markets function the people are in charge. Right now the insurance commission is in triage with the industry. This is the industry that has guaranteed profits. How many of you who own a business has a guaranteed profit by government. What we need is to free up the market rates will come down. What they have done in every industry that's been deregulated for the past

20 years. Senator McGreevey 30 seconds. Yes. The governor criticizes my plan. Governor Cahill a Republican in 1973 provided for a 15 percent rollback the entire Western world said it was unconstitutional. But Governor Cahill got it done. The difference between myself and this governor is I want to find ways to reduce insurance costs. This governor wants to find ways to protect the insurance companies. We ought to be prosecuting fraud not paying for it. And a public advocate. Governor Whitman I'm glad my opponent mentions Bill Cahill because he did do it. He did it constitutionally not by executive order if you'd look it up. He did it by law and he did it based on a program that was getting at. Getting at lawsuits which is exactly what my program does and I have a policy before the legislature which would allow drivers to drop their costs up to twenty five percent. Jim talks about wanting to get out fraud. Well you know something he voted against three very important

pieces of legislation that dealt with fraud that I signed in June. Anthony Johnson of tinted windows as our next question for Senator McCain. Senator McGreevey this is one of those fill in the lying type of questions that the calls for an explanation also. No one doubts that over the past four years New Jersey has been on the road to an economic recovery and turn around and in part it's because of the National turn around and the governor's initiatives with that in mind. Tell us what you tell us which you would have done in the past four years had you spent excuse me for one second. Tell us if you had been governor this past four years you would have spent more time doing X and less time doing Y and explain. My basic frustration is the national economies improve. Many states have used that as an opportunity to set standards of excellence in education or to level up property taxes but not in New Jersey and New Jersey over these past four years. The governor now in the last week of the campaign says recognizes

that we have problems with auto insurance and property taxes. But what has happened is this governor has shirked responsibility. The governor has authorized 12 rate increases. We're paying a billion dollars more on property taxes. The governor increased state spending in Trenton by $2 billion. And guess what. Property taxes increase by $2 bills and our educational standards are among the worst in the nation. Are you open time magazine. Page 75 you see New Jersey on the map with the with standards on education. I want to be the governor who takes on the auto insurance companies. I want to be the governor was to provides excellence in education. Governor Whitman Well if past experience is any guide to what Senator McGreevey would have done he voted in one year to increase spending at the state level more than I have over four budgets. He increased the property taxes in Woodbridge 43 percent while state aid was going up 16 percent. And he also managed to do something that his predecessors

haven't had taken them 322 years to do. They accumulated a debt in Woodbridge of 64 million dollars in six years. He's taken that to almost 120 million dollars. That's what I think he would have done with the state in the last four years. Mr. Saverin the question that we should be asking ourselves who are you going to believe tax and spend Jim McGreevey or borrow and spend. Christie Whitman. That's what it is. That's what's been happening in this state for the past 20 years. Tax and spend borrow and spend. Now we have multibillion dollars worth of debt that our fund will have to pay for unborn generations will be faced with a tax burden with regulations that will stifle business here in the state. The famous joke down in Spartanburg South Carolina there in New Jersey. Accents down there. Then there was Governor Whitman in New Jersey has the dubious distinction of being number one in local property taxes the average of 138 hundred dollars a year. No one said one way to bring them down is to regionalize services police fire. Trash collection. Do you feel people who live in places is Hunterdon County and Woodbridge

should do that in order to decrease property taxes at the local level. I have to tell you the only way that we're really going to get at property tax reductions significant property tax reduction is you have to look at the state. We have 566 municipalities 611 School District 21 counties 188 fire districts. That is where the money goes. That's why over the last three and a half years we have put incentive programs into place to make it easier for municipalities and school districts to share services. And there are about 170 municipalities over the last three and a half years that have kept their tax rates stable or actually seen them go down and kept them within the rate of inflation or seen them go down. So it can be done. The bottom line is property taxes are a function of local spending decisions. We have increased municipal aid by a billion dollars over the last four years and yet we still see that spending goes up but we managed to cut other taxes under Jim Florio we had 2.8 billion dollars in increased taxes and property taxes went up

faster than they have over the last three and a half. Mr. Saverin your rebuttal. The taxpayers of this state are feeding three bureaucracies state county and local government. It's time for that process to stop. It's time for the money to stay in the people's pockets so they can do the things they need at the local level. People live in a particular town they don't live in the state they live in a town. That money has to stay there so people can do the things that they want to do rather than all these mandates coming from. There are so many mandates in Trenton. They make absolute no sense. For example Senator McGreevey you have 30 seconds on the wind which tracks record the governor's remarks are a clear distortion between 1990 and 1997 municipal taxes in Woodbridge went up a total of seven percent. The problem is is what's happened with this administration. For the average family earning approximately $40000 they received back about $130 from their income tax but their property taxes went up $535 governor. Four hundred dollars of increase is a lot of money to working families.

Our second round of questions will focus on education and on health care. We're going to begin with a question for Mary Saverin from my colleague Marsha Kramer needs to marshal Mr. Cedron sexually transmitted diseases AIDS and teen pregnancies are a big problem on kids in New Jersey schools especially teen pregnancies. Do you think that the New Jersey Department of Health with the New Jersey Department of Education purchased condoms in bulk and give them free to local school districts to give out to students to combat these problems. And if so why. And I'd appreciate it if you would answer this specific question and give me a campaign statement. Well I don't have campaign statements. I have just analysis of the problems facing the people of say the jurors and here is a good example of how parental responsibility has been taken away from parents and put on the schools. Parents are responsible for teaching their children values to make sure that children have values that don't put them in a situation where they have these problems. So what do we have to do in New Jersey. We have to have parents heavily involved in their children's education starting from day one. When that

responsibility is not there who then takes over the burden the burden should be placed if you will on the local community. We have churches temples mosques throughout the community that teach abstinence that teach the proper role of interpersonal relationships. Instead the schools are now placed with children who have these problems. And instead of addressing issues of education. Schools have become social welfare agencies to the detriment of the children. Senator McGreevey will begin the rebuttal. I do not believe the schools ought to be distributing condoms. I do recognize however that there are significant non educational problems that administrators principals and teachers confront and there needs to be proper linkage between health departments and schools. But part of the problem is also that we need to establish behavioral standards. We need to teach our students the difference between right and wrong and that character counts in addition to establishing and using the Harvard model standards for academic excellence. I would also teach your children the fundamental difference between right and wrong. Governor Whitman you have 30 seconds.

I believe the decision whether or not to distribute condoms is one that should be left up to the local school boards and the parents and teachers at that school. We have a very comprehensive sex education course that begins and ends with abstinence because that is the only way to avoid an unwanted pregnancy or socially transmitted disease. But we have to understand that there are kids that aren't going to get that message and we need to teach them everything else in between. But we need to work with the local districts to ensure that we are providing that kind of education which we do now and we have a standard and a guide the first ever developed in this state for condign in our classrooms. Dion Haynes has our next question for Jim McGreevey. Senator McGreevey you've said that the core curriculum standards in the new education bill are deficient although they do include the arts the social sciences and language skills. Can you explain why you think they're inadequate. Yes. The most important thing we can give to our children is educational excellence. What we have seen with this governor is unfortunately standards of mediocrity not only the Fordham Foundation not only the

pig but most recently Time magazine in its cover story talking about the need for standards of excellence. This governor's standards are not specific do not require analytical thinking and most importantly do not establish standards of excellence for schools or for children. What I would do is scrap the standards utilizers standards that have been promulgated by Harvard School of Education as well as the University of Chicago to establish clear standards not only for testing but also to ensure excellence throughout our system. We also need behavioral standards and we need an end to social promotion. And I would work in partnership with schools with principals and teachers to develop these educational standards. Governor Whitman your rebuttal. Well first of all as part of education I hope you would read the Time magazine article because it didn't say we had the worst educational standards in the nation and to promote a single person as the Harvard study does. Who wrote those standards for Massachusetts and deemed them number

one is really is I believe being naive. We have standards for the first time in the history of this state. Education weekly with the Pew Foundation did a study and rated us in the top five and gave us today. And I am very proud that former Governor Tom Kean and Saul Cooperman belfry affirmed that these standards are X.. Mr. Saverin you have 30 seconds. I want to empower teachers as the only professional educator running for governor here. I know what it means to have high standards in the classroom. I've always said that when I was in public education in New York City and now when I'm around for college students learn because teachers are empowered to give them the training the skills the motivation. We don't need mandates we don't need standards set by Trenton. We need teachers empowered to set the standards in their own classroom. We're talking about education and health care. Our next question for Governor Whitman comes from Theresa Crowley. Governor. A lot of kids are coming into school with problems. Family problems social problems. It's not just about education anymore. It seems to me you talk to any teacher and something is happening

to the kids somewhere between the schools and home. Sex drugs pedophiles explicit media. God only knows what's on the Internet that they're saying in school. So what are you doing to support the family in supporting their kids and their education. We have for the first time in this state put together a program where we're talking about bright beginnings. I just announced a program called Faces the other day taking a child taking the parent from the time they become pregnant to teach them how to become good parents. We've provided for more daycare slots than ever before and for the first time provided extra funding in this budget to ensure that every one of the children in the hundred districts with the most at risk children will have early childhood education and kindergarten provided for those children. We're putting $2.5 billion aside in next year's budget to get 50 of our schools to start a program where we open up 50 of our schools so they're there beyond the normal hours of the school day. So that again parents and children can find a haven for those kids during the hours when you have a two family with two parents where they both have to

work and they can't be home with their child. So for the first time we have set goals on dealing and helping and supporting our parents and helping them help their children. First rebuttal from Marsay front. It is very interesting that since we've had the rise of the two income family we've had a rise in these problems where families are overtaxed that flow what happens. Kovan all left on their own to fend on their own and God knows what they're doing when they're on their own. What we need to do is bring back family responsibility lower taxes. That frees up one parent to stay at home parents are not making a conscious decision to stay at home because they realize the importance of transmitting values to their children instead of earning that extra dollar. Senator I agree. I believe look at the record. Look look what has happened in the past four years I've advocated to replicate small story that Governor Hunt is undertaken in North Carolina. Recognizing that 90 percent of a child's brain development occurs between birth and three years of age. Only fifty seven million dollars less than one half of one

percent of the total educational budget and full day kindergarten. Frankly I think it's more important we invest in full day kindergarten than pay for Steve wins 300 million dollar tunnel. Anthony Johnson has our next question for Mary Saverin and Mr. Safer You have gone on the record and in a recent newspaper article against government affirmative action and you also say that businesses should have the right to decide whoever they want to hire. That raises this question How would you have handled the teacher controversy in Piscataway and that school system where a qualified white teacher was laid off in order to keep an equally qualified black teacher on the payroll. I am opposed to government affirmative action so therefore government institutions are applying for now. What do they do when they have to make this choice a choice between two equally qualified people. There is no good answer to this situation. There are contractual relations that the teachers union has with the school board. That should be addressed that should be adhered to as far as addressing this whole issue of racism in our society it's very simple. It's a problem

but it won't go away by extending the law to make it a crime to do this. Penalties are in place. And so what we have in the United States today is trying to. Help people who have been discriminated in the past and in doing so we this are against people who had nothing to do with those past discrimination. So we are in a bind when it comes to these decisions. What we need to do is deal equitably with people at all levels. If we do that we're just trusting the people to make the right decision. This problem will go away on its own. Senator McGreevey. Yes. I don't believe this problem is going to go away on its own. I believe in affirmative action. I believe it is incumbent upon our society to have a workforce that represents society. I believe it is important that we provide for economic opportunity. I've consistently strongly provided and supported affirmative action and I shall always continue to do so. Governor Whitman I don't suppose I support corporate quotas but I do support a widening opportunity for people. It's one of the reasons why I've cut taxes 14 times in this

state. And today we have more people working than ever before. The project that that the senator speaks about is in fact going to be responsible for ninety six thousand jobs during construction over 16000 permanent jobs. And the developer has agreed that 30 percent of the permanent jobs are going to go to the underemployed or unemployed of Atlantic City. I have a question for Senator McGreevey that we are talking about health and education here. I want to get my facts straight on June 16th. You said you supported a woman's right to choose and voted against a New Jersey ban on partial birth abortions. Four months later in response to a questionnaire you said you supported state ban on partial birth abortion procedures with the exception of when the health of the woman is endangered now. What happened. What changed. Less than 100 days between the two. Did you change your position after the primary and during the general to get the support of the Christian Coalition. I don't I don't believe we have ever answered a response to the Christian Coalition. My position has been clear. I support a woman's right to choose. I believe that there are certain

areas the state has no reasonable interference with either in the dawn of life or in the dusk of life. I believe that is quite a personal decision that a woman has to make. I believe the state has no proper role I saw whether particular when my grandmother was dying and Sloan Kettering Hospital there was a law in the state of New York that required one somebody was on a heart lung machine they could not be taken off. And clearly the doctor recognized it was wrong. We recognized it was wrong. I believe those decisions are decisions of moral conscience within the ethical framework of the individual. I've always been pro-choice. I shall continue to do so. I believe it is inappropriate for the state to impose unwarranted interference. Governor Whitman I rewrote the legislation on partial birth abortion so that it recognized that a viable fetus deserves protection but it also recognized that the woman has a an important role here and deserves to be recognized as well. So the exception that I would carve out is that you don't perform this kind of an abortion

except if the life or the health long term physical health of the mother is at stake that I believe is the appropriate balance to be made in this issue. It's not what kind of procedure. It's the broader issue and like Mr. Sapre in your rebuttal. I'm opposed to partial birth abortion. It is a procedure that has no place in civilized society. If dogs and cats were treated like this the animal rights people would be marching in Trenton. There's no point to have a procedure that is so gruesome. People get very pale when they hear about it. What we need to do is say very clearly this procedure is infanticide. It is nothing more than infanticide. It is not a woman's choice to commit this procedure which is murder. Our third round of questions. This debate will deal with the crime social and safety issues. And we begin with Marcia Kramer having a question for Governor Whitman. Marcia Governor Whitman is a judge is allowed to same sex partners in this case gay men to adopt a child who had been in their care for for three months and that at the age of two

they allowed the adoption to go ahead. They're also seeking to adopt another foster child a daughter who's now 10 months old. I wonder if you think that the state of New Jersey should take the next step and legalize same sex marriages. Marcia I've been against same sex marriages and I have said that in this instance of the adoption of the child though it's clearly the most important thing that should drive any decision is the best interests of that child. And as we look at what's happening with children in the state of New Jersey today as we put more money behind typhus. Typhus workers as we've worked with church groups. Throughout the state to ensure that they are part of the support group a network that's out there for women who have children who they can't see whom they can't support on their own. We are looking for what is in the best interest of the child. We have got to protect those children. And what's important here is only that goal. And again everything that we do whether it's providing health care for children or providing training for adults that they know how to take care of children is got

to be focused on the most important person in this discussion and that is the child. Mr. séverine your rebuttal. Marriage is a cultural institution. The less state involvement there is the better. If people want to get together they can go to a cultural institution of their choice church a synagogue or a mosque or any other institution whether it's a sectarian or non-sectarian institution. The more we have state involvement in these personal relationships the less the more conflict we will have in our society. So the thing is you get the state out of these very personal relationships and let people decide through their cultural institutions what type of reference they would like to have. Senator McGreevey. Yes. I mean clearly against same sex marriages. On the question of this particular case the difficulty is we always must be concerned with the welfare of the child. The simple reality is is that typhus workers in the state of New Jersey are overburdened. Their caseload is substantially above the national average. The twenty five children have died in the past four years under the care of diocese.

This is simply unacceptable. We must ensure not only the removal of confidentiality particularly with the death of a child. Our next question is for MRSA and it comes from Diana had this to say in the state of New Jersey. This happens to coincide with the passage of several laws that carry mandatory sentences. Some of them were signed by Governor Whitman are more SoCs law is required to keep the state safe. Are we to give judges more discretion in sentencing. Crime is obviously a very important issue in urban centers. One way to reduce crime is get criminals off the street as soon as possible and have a punishment that fits the crime. Another way to address the crime picture was that the criminals have the guns no matter how many laws we pass. Criminals have gotten what we need to do is level the playing field. In Florida the 10th anniversary of their right to carry the crime is down significantly since the law was passed. Not one tourist has been attacked. Why. Criminals know that

tourists coming off that plane just may have a weapon of protection. What we need in our society is give people the right to protect themselves. That is called self defense. Self defense is a natural right. It's guaranteed by our Constitution. We should extend it so peaceful law abiding citizens who are actively trained have the right to defend themselves. Throughout our state Mr. McGreevey. And all I had was my beach pass when I went to the beach as a former assistant prosecutor I co-sponsored three strikes and you read Megan's Law as well as the requirement to serve 85 percent of the time in prison. I've taken a strong unequivocal stance but I also believe particularly for children. We need something between probation and incarceration. Former Governor Kaine had a tremendous program here the field program and we need to reinstitute that program governor as a halfway measure of your time. Crime is important throughout the state of New Jersey and I am proud to be the governor that had the department that wrote those laws Megan's Law Jones law the cops Bill of Right Eighty five percent

Bill and three strikes and you're in and we have to ensure that we continue to focus on incarcerating those who commit crimes. But we do have for the first time in the state's history a boot camp for first time juvenile offenders. So that young people start to learn there are going to be consequences for their action and our youth services Commission are working throughout the state. Theresa Crowley will have the next question for Senator McCain. Senator McCreevy I'd like to pick up on this issue of juvenile crime. We have seen some horrendous crimes recently many of them committed by juveniles many committed by pedophiles. And children who are not treated when they are victims of pedophiles often turn to drugs and alcohol just to cope or they grow up to act out the crime. Why do we do besides lock them up and pass Megan's Laws. Can we balance justice with any sense of compassion and treatment or do we just have more death penalty cases. That's a very important question. And we have to tackle it. There's nobody more conservative more like crime than myself. As a former assistant prosecutor

but we also have to do something besides just lock up an entire generation. The concern that I've set forth the governor said yes we have one but frankly we need to move aggressively in that direction and the middle class program isn't just a poor. It's a program that provides an interim step. Now I was a former assistant prosecutor and child did something wrong get put him on probation again and again and again. Finally they did something so horrific. You put them away put them in a you know institution. There has to be that halfway measure the middle Bill's program was a residential setting. It's physically a house. The children were taught the difference between right and wrong. They were required to perform academically and they had a sense of structure the sense of discipline. So my father was a former Marine Corps drill instructor did for me and I'd like to do with these children. Governor Whitman your rebuttal. We for the first time have established alternate schools in every one of our counties to provide for youngsters who act out in the classroom but are not

the type of kid that you want to get involved with the criminal justice system. But you just can't turn them out. We have also sponsored a program called Challenge New Jersey with the New Jersey National Guard. That again takes children in danger of getting into trouble with the law and puts them into a structured environment throughout the state. We now have 21 Youth Services commissions that are working on alternatives to incarceration for the judiciary. Mr. Sabin you have 30 seconds. We are in a great moral crisis in this nation. Illegitimacy is an all time high. Drug abuse is at an all time high. What we need is a renewal at the local level. Parents working with community leaders working with the institutions that I've worked in the past. Organizations like sharing and caring for by Mary Jo Copeland in Minneapolis helping people at the grassroots level without government aid because it's bureaucratic It's stifling. What we need is community solutions to community problems. Governor Whitman your next question is from Anthony Johnson of tension with Judge and Governor Whitman on the issue of safety.

We've seen many criminals dressing up in police uniforms driving around in police cars with the dark tinted windows complete with the sirens bells and whistles. And in some cases women have been abused in some cases they've even been assaulted. Now would you support an effort or sign legislation to ban the practice of unmarked police cars patrolling New Jersey highways and streets and roads. No Anthony I would not. The unmarked police car and the undercover officer is essential in doing things like getting in drug trafficking at getting at many of our criminals. We have to have them. Fortunately while we have seen some instances where we have had people abusing the police uniform and police badges it hasn't. It is something that everyone has to guard against. We haven't had as bad a rash as some other states and that's why I've signed penalties that make it stronger if we catch anybody doing that kind of thing impersonating an officer. The penalties are very severe. But when we look at the challenges facing our society we have to have the ability for our police officers to go undercover for our police

officers to get into our cities to do the buys in the open air drug markets. That's why I've signed legislation that's made the penalties harsher when we get people who engage in open air drug markets that's a quality of life issue that we focused on. But those kinds of initiatives would be impossible without undercover officers. Mr. Saverin I must confess I'm an undercover police officer. Having undercover police officers fine. But on the roads where women are driving alone at night where they go into the malls at night we need a police presence. I'm going to say this in public for the first time I've said it to people. There's a crime wave going on in this state police officer telling that wife do not go to the malls because of the high incidence of crime that would stop on there my administration. Senator McGreevey part of stopping crime is working in partnership for example as mayor Ridge. We've established substation at Woodward center we reduce crime at that particular center by 25 percent. We need unmarked cars. We need to provide or police with every possible weapon at their disposal. But

they need to use it rationally. And I am against tinted windows for anyone except police force. Mr. Saverin You've been quoted as saying people should be able to carry weapons assault weapons concealed weapons you talked about personal responsibility. Would you feel the same way if one of your loved ones was killed by an assault weapon or a concealed weapon. No I would want the death penalty for someone who killed so all of my family. That's the way I would feel. But we have the right to protect ourselves. That's a fundamental right. It's there in the Constitution. The second amendment to the U.S. Constitution and the New Jersey state constitution protecting oneself is the most fundamental natural activity that an individual can undertake. What we need is responsible gun ownership in this state. We can have instant check at the National Rifle Association. Supports because that allows gun stores to determine who is eligible to get a gun.

So it has a record. What we need again is personal responsibility. What does that mean if you use a gun carelessly. You should be punished civilly criminally. That's very simple. Using a gun or a dangerous weapon entails tremendous personal responsibility. And so what we need in this state is the right to carry which Senator commonalties supports and he has a bill which I support. Senator McGreevey have 30 seconds to rebut. Yes. I supported and voted for the ban on assault weapons. I believe clearly that's where New Jersey ought to be. But you also draw a distinction between weapons that are illegal as opposed to weapons that are illegal. We need to increase penalties punitive measures against those who legally have arms and drew the clear strong distinction. It's not about punishing those who legally obtained through the permit process. It's about increasing penalties for those who illegally use arms. Governor Whitman I believe in the Second Amendment right to carry arms. But I also believe and I have signed legislation that increases the penalty for those who use illegal guns. And I must say I'd be a little concerned living in a society where not only do we allow people

to carry concealed weapons but we also make drug use legal. The combination is deadly. All right our fourth and final round we're calling is the potluck round our reporters here can ask whatever they want. And we're going to begin with just who is Marcia Kramer Marshall. Senator McGreevey. I want to go back to the car insurance question that you didn't answer in the first round. I know you're going to do me another chance more often. I'm not saying we should really cut to the chase. The governor says that your current proposal is unconstitutional. Several judges factor up the insurance industry and he said that if you were to try to do that by executive order they would fight you. They would file a suit. So given the fact that it could be unconstitutional and you're guaranteed to have the suit and you know what suits do in terms of delay delay delay do you think it's a little bit disingenuous to promise New Jersey voters that you're going to roll back their rates 10 percent when you take office when you know you are going to be able to do it. I'm going to do it. The insurance companies want to sue me make my day. My

basic perspective is this right now in the state of New Jersey we spend a hundred and sixty dollars out of every thousand dollars for fraud in most states in the nation. Prosecute fraud. They don't pay for. We had a case in Essex County two unscrupulous health professionals bill. Fifty two million dollars they received a two year suspension of license and a slap on the wrist. Frankly if that happens during the McGreevey administration they'll be prosecuted and an individual is indicted and convicted or just serve time. I believe New Jersey motorists should not be paid for fraud. And in addition we need a public advocate to represent our interest. Right now it's just the insurance companies and the Department of Insurance. And we lost 12 times. Governor Whitman your rebuttal. Well I'm always interested when the senator speaks with such passion about going after fraud and talks about taking the professional licenses for those who engage in fraud. I agree. We wrote the bill I

signed it in June. He voted against it. We also went after the insurance companies we have now increased the penalties to $25000 each and every time they fail to prove they fail to report fraud to us. We've gotten rid of the most egregious benefits that insurance companies have under legislation that he sponsored. We're making a difference. You say you have 30 seconds. I'll repeat what I said at the first debate. You could see they neither have the answer to the auto insurance mess and say you've been crazy over the past 20 years. Why are we trying. Freedom and deregulation it works in every district in the nation. Every country around the world is deregulated. What is this obsession with controlling the insurance industry. I don't understand it. It works in every other form of insurance homeowner's insurance. Life insurance people knocking on your door to get you a business but not on auto insurance. When a pot luck crowd Diane Haynes has our next question for the governor. Company with New Jersey's poor facilities provide hundreds of thousands of jobs for Port drenching has been delayed and slowed because of fear of dumping

dioxin control contaminated waste in the ocean. Should the drenching program continue. And what has he done with the waste. Oh absolutely Diane and I have been a strong advocate of that of course I was the governor that came in and said you were not going to continue to dump contaminated spoils of Sandy Hook. And I made good on that and that dumpsite is now closed. But we also have just completed in this year alone 12 dredging projects we are moving toward ensuring that our port continues to sustain 180000 jobs that are part of what makes this economy strong in the state of New Jersey and in fact we have two new projects underway one at Arayan where we are showing the beneficial use that can come from dredge spoils where we can take dredge spoils you d water them mix them with good with clean soil and then you can use them for parking lots and runways and that kind of a process. We also have worked out of land disposal solutions and there's one so back we asked fit but we have got to keep dredging because too much of our economy depends on that too many

people's jobs. And we will continue to keep dredging. Mr. Sabor you read the rebuttal. There are very cost effective methods to get rid of this material. There are bacteria that are put into the heap and it naturally breaks down this dioxin. What we need is a rational way of dealing with some of the environmental issues instead of the ENP overriding only really challenging people on their own property throughout the state. That's what we've had throughout the state for the past 20 years. What do you write in the EPA for the very simple reason it's overriding the property rights of people throughout the state. I don't agree. I agree with everything the governor said. Problem is we haven't been doing much of anything for the past four years. We're turning away a ship every other day. The problem is once we lose those container vessels either Norfork or Baltimore we lose them for good. We need to dredge up our harbors provide blow up land storage as well as the use of the Sobig we use that's what we need to

do it and we need to do it now. Moving on to Crowley from his radio 88 with a question from Murray safer. Mr. Cedron your libertarian candidacy has been a really interesting exercise in challenging big government and regulation and you've done us a service with this debate but how can you call a vote for you a viable alternative when the people of this state have proved over and over that we want government jobs and service. I mean Governor Whitman was almost run out of town on a rail when she tried to trim state jobs and you would basically gut them. So how can people seriously vote for you. With all due respect it's a contest between your two challengers. You've asked the most important question in this election what is the purpose of state government. I've gone through the state constitution the state constitution states that we the people have the right to life liberty and property. All the laws emanating from the legislature must be based upon those principles. Instead the government is micromanaging the auto insurance industry giving us a one billion

dollar scheme to pass our cost. It's going to take your cars away next year if you don't pass inspection twice at a cost to $500. That's what's coming down the pike. We're talking about the role of government confiscating cars over regulating land in this state doing all the things to our citizenry that it's costing us millions and millions and billions of dollars. For example retrofitting buses that the cost of $640000 per bus when a new bus plus 200000 and we're in there. Where are their devices for fifteen hundred dollars can fix the problem. Instead the Whitman administration is spending 32 million dollars to retrofit one weapon a rebuttal. I think it's important to have as many voices as possible as part of this process and get as many people to vote as we possibly can. But I hear those voices have to be responsible and when Mr. Saverin talks about us taking cars from people's driveways if they fail a test next year he is absolutely dead wrong is a real choice here. One person who believes in slash and burn government and the other who believes in tax and spend. And then there is a third choice and the third choice is

someone who has a proven record of cutting taxes and controlling spending and seeing our economy rebound. Senator MacGruber I think the problem by the way I like merit. I think the big challenge here is making government work on the road to insurance. Governor Whitman's proposal is to reduce your coverage by 25 percent. That's to reduce your costs by 25 percent. Her own Republican Party refused that. No. This governor could get through 10 billion dollars of debt but didn't do anything on auto insurance reform for four years and now the governor recognizes it's a problem. After 12 great increases in insurance companies doubling their profits. Anthony Johnson with our next question for Jim McGreevey. Senator McGreevey New Jersey has a looming education crisis on the horizon and that's dealing with crumbling schools. The state Supreme Court wants the state and the estimated cost of the peers tops the six billion dollar mark. So how do you propose to raise that money to pay for the case of schools.

Great question as a mayor to be a Republican or Democrat there is a tax crisis in New Jersey. It's a property tax crisis and I'm glad in the last week of this campaign the governor realizes it. My problem is is that this governors cut state of funding for education from 42 percent to 36 percent and who got hammered we middle class property tax homeowners and renters. My solution is every year state revenues increase between 750 and 900 million dollars. I wanted to dedicate up to half of those monies to provide for property tax relief to ensure that middle class New Jersey can afford to live within our homes. The governor says it's not her problem. I want to make it my problem. And I would also provide to the State Economic Development Authority long term low interest loans not grants low schools reconstruct. Governor wouldn't you have 30 seconds to rebut.

Well it's hard to know where to start. When Jim McGreevey talks about 12 rate increases when he knows there weren't 12 rate increases and he doesn't answer the question there's a committee right now a commission that is doing the review of all the infrastructure needs of the schools throughout the state of New Jersey. Once we know how much we're talking about we will then have the ability to understand where we're going to get that money. As for the growth in the budget you've just in the course of this campaign you promised 30 different programs costing over three billion dollars you spent this money a million times over. Mr. Sabre in your rebuttal. Governor Whitman and Senator McGreevey worship government. That's why we have a $17 billion budget. I don't worship government. I know its limitations. They don't know the government's limitations. Government does what it does best protecting the people's life liberty and property. If we want social services the nonprofit sector delivers the services at 50 cents on the dollar. And that is the evidence that not my stuff isn't it. That's not my assertion. That's something my ivory tower thinking. That's a reality.

Governor Whitman I have a question for you this is the pot luck section and it seems that the pot is boiling over in the last few weeks of controversy and accusations about your chief of staff Harry Durbin that she told Hispanics members of the Hispanic community that a half million dollars in new grant money was tied to their endorsement. Robert Rodriguez a Republican quoted as saying If you think we're going to give you half a million dollars for nothing you are crazy. And that of course is the trump card. Donald Trump says she's ready to yank his casino license. He ran ads attacking you and your Atlantic City roadway project. There's some smoke here. Is there a fire here. And are you going to fire. Absolutely not. I am proud of the integrity of this administration. My second executive order established a code of ethics for the office of the governor and for all the executive branch if anyone knows Donald Trump I'd be very surprised that he was threatened by Harry if Dermont if you know Harriet Dermont as well and as for the allegations with the

Hispanics. First of all we have somebody here who didn't get a promotion that they wanted. Who claims that a meeting took place in August. They only happened to come forward in October to express their outrage over something that was already in the budget as we put it in the budget. Then came to them afterwards and said You've got to support us. These are unfortunately the kinds of things that we've been trying to avoid in this campaign. Last minute political slandering it has absolutely no basis in fact and this administration has had an extraordinary record of keeping people above board. And whenever there's been an instance of a question of behavior that I thought had any substance at all we acted. Mr. Saverin you'll begin our rebuttal during this campaign. The governor has gone throughout the state handing out checks as if it were a private piggy bank. That's the way the election process works. That will stop on there my administration that money will be returned to the people and lower taxes so they can do what they want it rather than the governor going around the state buying votes with taxpayer dollars. The governor has a contingency fund that is

used to effectively buy votes. Let's be honest about it. That's the political process that will stop. Under my administration when we return government to the small government that we should have. Senator McGreevey I believe there's an ethical crisis and it's unfortunate that this governor does not take it seriously. These were charges of Republican made against the chief of staff in a meeting with the Republican chairman. They don't belong together. These are serious allegations. The governor refused to investigate whether it's true Karpinski the first commissioner of insurance resigned in disgrace because of conflicts of interest. Now Michael France where his testimony is famous for being sealed because of possible implications with the administration. We need an ethical overview. Thank you Mr. McGreevey. That concludes our questioning. The candidates will now have 90 seconds for a closing statement. They order was agreed upon before we got started. And Senator Jim McGreevey will be again.

Senator. Thank you. Most importantly the first Tuesday of November we're going to make a very important decision who will be the next governor. I am asking for your support. I want to be the governor who takes responsibility. Governor most recently said their most recent advertisement. I hear that you're hurting. Auto insurance and property taxes. I'll get to it. Governor they were issues four years ago and you not only have not done nothing you've made the problem worse for the insurance. Insurance companies doubled their profits. We're spending a billion dollars more out of our wallets. All insurance companies have double their profits 12 rating for. Property taxes. Property taxes have gone up by two billion dollars in our children's education. The most important thing in the world are standards among the weakest. I want to be the governor who gets things done. Not the governor who says insurance is the legislature or property taxes matter.

I have a plan for 10 percent rollback by targeting fraud prosecution and a public advocate. The governor's own claim was refused by the Republican legislature. I'm going to get it done and I'll pay property taxes. I'm going to target it increased growth in state revenues for property tax reduction and have standards of excellence for education for our children. Lastly come from the middle class. I'm asking you for your support. I'm on your side. We know what didn't happen in these past four years. Let's not do it again. Please I appreciate your vote. All right say bring your clothes and come. I'd like to thank my parents who and their wise decision 48 years ago decided to move to America. So their son could grow up with his two brothers and here before you try to become the next governor of the state of New Jersey I'd like to thank my wife of 29 years for our unwavering support putting me through graduate school and allowing me to run this campaign. I'd also like to thank all the volunteers and supporters

of the same and for governor campaign. The issue is very clear. My opponents love government. I love the people. That's why I trust the people to do the right thing with the dollars we're going to return to them. When we lower taxes deregulate the economy so they can have better lives in their communities across this great state the great state of New Jersey has two words on the seal. Liberty and prosperity. Liberty is the root of libertarianism. New Jersey is a libertarian state. Freedom of the individual limited government person responsibly and home rule what does that mean there will not be an auto emissions testing program that will cost you one billion dollars. Fifteen hundred dollars for every man woman and child in this state. That does nothing to clean the air. The EPA has said so. The picket today also report has said so. This is a fraud exam. We don't need it to make life better than state of New Jersey. Yet the guard insist we need this program. My administration will have sound regulations sound regulations based upon

sound science not junk science. Thank you Governor Whitman your closing statement. Well first I want to thank the sponsors of tonight's debate. You know this is a wonderful state and for the last three and a half years I've had the privilege to serve you as its governor. Together we've done some extraordinary things. We took a state whose economy was in freefall and turned it around so we're now looked on as the economic engine of the northeast and have more people working today than ever in our history. We fought crime to a 23 year low. And for the first time we have in our schools standards and accountability. So we know our children will be educated and we've been able to move a hundred and ten thousand people off our welfare rolls. We have done a great deal together but there's more to do. For too long now. Property taxes and auto insurance have taken from our quality of life. We've made some progress in those areas. But it's never enough. I have a plan before the legislature today that would drop auto insurance rates 25 percent. We are constantly finding new

ways to help local officials keep their spending down so that we can help them reduce their property tax burden. We can succeed at this just as we have succeeded in everything else. We put our mind to in this administration. On November 4th you have a choice. Do we continue to build and go forward in this state or do we take a chance and going backward. You know who I am you know where I stand. I've always kept my promises to you with your help on November 4th will take New Jersey into the 21st century as a leader among states. Thank you very much. I guess. For all the candidates we'd like to conclude this debate by asking for a large round of applause for all three candidates. Tonight. Two and Three. And then the South Jersey Philadelphia area. I'd like to

thank the people at the William Paterson University for hosting this event and providing us with such great great hospitality here today. I'm Dana Tyler along with Larry Kane and we also want to thank my panelists our reporters here who came here this evening with some tough questions. And of course the candidates thank you so very much for your candor tonight. And now it's time to think about getting out and vote. Don't forget your vote counts. Get out there on the first Tuesday of November. Thanks for joining us every day. See. You. It's nice to see you. I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to come over before. Because she wants you to I'm sorry I didn't know I. Was. Going to see. You. Thank.

You. Thank. You. So much.