American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Gordon Carey, 1 of 3

[bars and tones] [interviewer]: We we were just talking a second ago about, um, the civil rights movement as we you know, what would become of the civil rights movement, and- and how it kinda took off after after WWII, um, in that period. What was it that- that you think kind of sparked this new or more -orous, um, civil rights movement? [Gordon Carey]: Well I think initially it was the, um, Montgomery bus boycott probably that- that triggered a lot of stuff and then, um, my standpoint, of course, then the the civil sit-in movement that started in Greensboro in 1960, um,

f- bec- that energized the youth of America. That- that's what- that's what got SNCC started, that that's how young people got involved in this thing. Because before that, civil rights was an organization wa- was a movement of of, uh, middle class, uh, older, oftentimes white, um, people who, uh, who were highly motivated, but but did not represent really, uh, a a a lot of the, um, um, people that that were really affected by by segregation. [interviewer]: Um, just if you can very briefly since film is really, uh, on the freedom riders, but but what was the sit-in movement? What, ya know, quick just ya know really short what happened what was that? [Carey]: Well the sit-in movement, a- a- a- [sighs] according to the modern mythology, it started in Greensboro 19- 60, however CORE, congress of racial equality, ran had had sit-ins going back in the early 40s in Chicago and Indiana and

Michigan and- and throughout- throughout the north. But these didn't get much publicity and they were they were kind of, um, hidden behind the scenes, uh, and it wasn't until, um, un- until these 4 kids at Greensboro, who were NAACP members. Um, until they sat down at the Woolworth lunch counter that the sit-in movement really started seriously. Um, there was, um, there were CORE did some early things before that. We we ran interracial workshops in Miami, Tallahassee, training people how to how to p- how to perform, uh, how to how to carry out non-violent direct action for example. Um, but, uh, the sit-in movement, um, was a a was was this by large spontaneous and, uh, w- we and CORE and and encouraged it, worked with students and so on but, uh, and and the press and the southern press tried to m- ya know characterize it as

outside yankees coming down and stirring up trouble but, uh, that really wasn't the case. We were yankees, we did come down, but all we did was work with a- and try to help out, uh, the the the people, mostly young people in these in these southern cities that we're carrying on a freedom ride. I mean carrying on the, uh, the um, um, the sit-ins. [interviewer, speaking to cameraman]: Okay, Robert can you pan over so your- avoid the white on that- [Robert]: Oh this one right here? Oh, sure. [interviewer]: Um, also, you can also you know get in tighter. [Robert]: I was waiting for another question. Okay. [interviewer]: Go- eh, I'm going off sor- Gordon if you can, um, one thing we're not tell me about what Greensboro was ya know in 25 words or less, you meet me at a party what was I mean, the way you're talking you're assuming that I know a little bit about it. What happened in Greensboro? [Carey]: I- i- in Greensboro, uh, i- i in Greensboro

North Carolina on February 1, 1960, um, these- these 4 students from from, um, um, from from A&T University, uh, sat down at a Woolworth lunch counter. They had been prompted and- and an aided in this thing by the- by a guy named George Simkins, a local dentist who was the youth leader of the of the NAACP there. And matter of fact, he had a he- George had had appealed to the NAACP for support in this and had been turned down. So at that point, he contacted us in in New York at at uh, at uh, CORE, at our CORE office, uh, ?inaudible? CORE dispatch- dispatched me down to Greensboro and, um, by the time I got there the the the they they Woolworth counter in Greensboro had been had been closed down. The management of the store simply closed the store down. But Floyd McKissick,

who was the, uh, state leader of of the NAACP youth in i- i- in North Carolina. Uh, met me in Durham and, um, he encouraged friends of his, uh, B. Elton Cox an an and uh, and um, High Point, other leaders around the south to to to mimic what the what the Greensboro kids did. And what they did was simply go in and sit down at the lunch counter and say hey we want to be served and when they weren't served, they would continue to sit there. Until one of several things happened either until they were arrested or until they were beat up on in some cases or until the, uh, restaurant was closed. It wa- was a pretty pretty direct a- assault on on on this type of segregation. [interviewer]: Why'd they do it? I mean why did they do it at this time? [Carey]: It it it's [sighs] I think I think

the I think the kids in Greensboro started- did it at this time did this in in February 1 simply because they were frustrated by this general situation with with segregation in in their community. Uh, they didn't do this as part of any grand scheme or or or or big national program. They simply were frustrated by what they were doi- by by the circumstances that they found themselves in and their families were in and as members of the NAACP youth group there, they were encouraged by George Simkins to to try to get involved in things and and and do thin- g- get take take direct action and and and do some things. And George- George happened to have a brochure that was given to him by someone from the American Friends service committee of course it ends in Baltimore back in the city back in the 60's and, uh, he saw there that that that that the city had desegregated successfully. The restaurants in in in b-

many restaurants i- in Baltimore. So he encouraged them to do the same thing there and they did and they certainly have stirred up a lot of, uh, interest throughout the whole south. [interviewer]: Um, could you just say 50's for me, just say 50's. You said 60's, I think you meant the 50's. Just say 50's. [Carey]: 50's. [interviewer]: Thank you. Cause I think you meant the 50's. [Carey]: Yeah, yeah I did [interviewer]: Um, so what did that how did did that kinda start a wave going? [Carey]: First of all i- i- [sighs] the the Greensboro actions by these kids, uh, started things going because it was picked up by the by the press uh, and the the it w- it was carried in the New York Times, other newspapers. Um, and then once once I got down there and Jim McCain, the other field secretary, got down there, the other field secretary from CORE got down there

and, um, we began to, um, um, have sit-ins in in Durham and other places. Uh, I got arrested, they, Jim uh, uh, Floyd McKissick came over and got me out of jail I didn't stay long, but that that was covered in the papers and that sort of thing and and so it just gradually it it was really the the the press th- that spread this thing. If if if the newspapers had not carry these stories, uh, other kids would not have known about it, but as it happened, with within weeks or maybe even maybe within 1 week or 2 weeks. Um, in Nashville, South Carolina, other places throughout the south, um, kids were joining and and doing doing these sit-ins. Many of them many of them not really prepared a- and and not knowing what they were how they were supposed to be acting so much except that they were under a general kind of um, um, command so to speak from from

Martin Luther King and James Farmer and others that that that you gotta be nonviolent, you know. Don't don't fight back because if you fight back you're simply gonna make things worse. Uh, so while while while while CORE for example had been a- a- a- an organization dedicated to nonviolence the sit-ins were not dedicated to nonviolence they simply use nonviolence as a tool a- a- as a method of of achieving a goal. [interviewer]: What's the difference, I don't understand the difference. [Carey]: The CORE for example, was started in in in back in Chicago by bunch of pacifist, socialist, students, i- idealists who were who were ?released? doings of Gandhi. And they believed that, um, that that that the best way to a- approach a problem was through, uh, uh, direct directly

assaulting it, directly confronting it, but not responding in any way with any any violence or or any any o- o- anything of that sort. But Gandhi and Nehru, when they ran these programs in in in India, they believed in nonviolence, but they also h- had they they had their troops th- th- the you know doing this as a matter of a tactic and they preached that you don't you don't have to believe necessarily what we're doing what ya know th- the you don't have to believe in in nonviolence but you gotta act in a nonviolent way. So it is a big difference between between being a pacifist and saying I'm never gonna fight. I'm I'm gonna resist war etc. and and using nonviolence as a tool to a- assault certain segregated situations and patterns

and that sort of thing. [interviewer]: Why was Gandhi so influential, um, i- i- in the movement [deep breath] [Carey]: Uh, I don't know that- I'm not- a Gandhi was not necessarily influential throughout the entire movement, but he was within CORE. CORE for some reason or other, congress of racial equality was started in in in part by the fellowship of reconciliation, which was a pacifist christian pacifist organization. And, uh, Jim Farmer for example, um, was a a pacifist who who in Chicago at that time at the University of Chicago and Bayard Rustin and others. They they they believed and had followed the the the movement in India. Uh a- a- and seen what what what nonviolence could accomplish

and they also were inspired by the by the s- by the sit-ins at the Ford motor company back in their 40's. I guess it was the 40's, when they when workers sat down a- and and refused to leave the plants. Protesting for so that was a combination of of um, of the the the Indian experience, um, the effectiveness of o- o- of the with the labor movement in some cases, that led the CORE people at least to a to adopt these, um, nonviolent tactics. [interviewer]: I just want you to give me just a little tiny bit doesn't have to be much, about about Gandhi I think that that some people you know who will see this film, especially younger people, ya know don't even know what what Gandhi did which was in some ways beat the British you know ?inaudible? insurmountable you know, beat the British out of India without firing a shot you know and I think that just to give a little bit about that

So what was it about Gandhi that was so impressive to to so many people? [Carey]: Gandhi was was actually an an attorney and, um, I don't know what caused Gandhi to to adopt principles of nonviolence, but he certainly mastered them. He was able to he was able to uh, to, um, i- inspire thousands of of of Indians to march to the sea, to stand up against British troops, and his goal of course was the freedom of India. To to come off from under the colonial British control. And he did that. Uh, he along with Nehru and others, uh, were able to to to succeed uh, in in a peaceful way. Took 'em many years, but they were

able to overth- to to overcome the the the British colonial powers. [interviewer]: There's a a somebody told me a quote of of Gandhi, do you know about this one? In the I think the 30's a group of African Americans went there and he said that uh, the real test of nonviolent principles would be the United States. Did you ever hear that? Will you cut for a sec? [Carey]: Another CORE staff member, Tom Gaither and I had been in, uh, South Carolina at Claflin College running a workshop on nonviolence. Uh, this was related to the to the, um, sit-ins and that sort of

thing. And we we were training people in nonviolent techniques at Claflin. Uh, this was, uh, in the, uh, winter uh, early winter of 1961 where the and uh, Tom and I got on a greyhound bus to go back to New York, uh, when the, um, when the training session was over and by chance we got stuck on a on a on a big snowstorm in- on the New Jersey turnpike and, um, we began talking. And I just happen to have a copy of Louis Fisher's, uh, autobiography of a- I mean biography of Gandhi in my in in my briefcase and pull it out and I- I was reading it and I started talking to Tom about the, uh, salt march to the sea and, um, he and I began talking and there were a number of things that converged, uh, the the the Boynton case in in Richmond, Virginia had

recently, um, um, it was a case where the supreme court had had ordered that, uh, facilities, uh, and gaze and interstate transportation had to be desegregated, um, sometime before the, um, uh, predecessor to the freedom rides call the journey of reconciliation, uh, had had, um, tested the the Morgan decision which which which outlawed, um, segregation on interstate transportation. But the interstate facilities, um, waiting waiting rooms and that sorta thing were still segregated. Uh, and and and so that that decision combined with the fact that we were on a greyhound bus, uh, and the fact that we were reading Gandhi's book, I mean the book about Gandhi's a- and the salt march to the sea, uh, we came up with well maybe maybe CORE should do this. Maybe maybe we should we

should have a salt march to the sea. Except it wouldn't be a salt march, but how bout a bus ride to the sea from Washington D.C. the the the the this home of democracy to New Orleans by the sea and, uh, before that trip was over g- we we we spent the night at at at uh, at uh, at uh, at a rest stop in a- a- along the interstate. 'Fore the night was over, Tom Gaither who knew all the black colleges in the south, he had mapped out the route before we ever got to New York. Now I will say that that when we got to New York and talked to some of the staff members about this, Tom and I were were really skeptical because the idea of taking an interracial group of men and women south through Birmingham and Jackson, Mississippi and so on was was was a pretty wild notion I suppose in those days. Uh, much to our surprise, um, they were excited about it. And Jim Farmer, who had just become the new director of CORE,

uhm, and he s- he said yeah let's do it. He was convinced right then and um, they took it to the CORE a- national action committee, endorsed it and, um, it became a it became history. [interviewer]: Gimme a a the the kinda nut shell ya know what was the idea, the idea was to ya know bring men, women, white, black, young and ya know down south and and and and te- and go into the, you know what I mean if you had to tell somebody in in you know a party so so they don't know what the hell the freedom rides were you tell your 15 year old nephew. What what was w- w- what was it? [Carey]: The idea of the freedom rides was to take, um, a a a group of- of an interracial group of of men, women, young people, older people, put 'em on buses

and send them throughout the south to test the to test the facilities that are related to interstate transportation, to see whether or not they are conforming to the federal law. Of course, we knew they weren't and we knew that there would be confrontation and this sorta thing, but that's that's part of the purpose of direct action so the idea was that they they would travel on the buses both ?thrailways? and greyhound. At the various rest stops in places where they where they had to stop they would they would get off the buses and they they would walk in to the to the um, waiting rooms and um, um, um, um, black persons would, uh, would go to the white waiting rooms and white people would go to the black, um, waiting rooms, uh, and sometimes a mixed groups they w- they w- th- th- they would do this and they would test the restrooms they would test the um, uh, all the all the facilities there. Now they also were

were testing of course seating on the buses because, uh, we knew that while while buses had in theory been integrated for a long time, once you got into the deep south, uh, they still were segregated in fact. So the idea was simply to go in and confront these s- these situations. Test their their, um, um, compliance with federal law and, um, protest and do what they could to to to end that practice. [interviewer]: Simple idea no problem [Carey]: This was a v- a very, um, very ordinary idea, um, and was the kind of thing the CORE and others had been doing for a long time, sitting in protesting. Um, testing and and and CORE did this without , um, CORE CORE did not do this without without a lot of preparation. For example- [interviewer]: We're gonna get into that [Carey]: Okay. [interviewer]: As we're gonna talk about that, um, you said that that that that you went when you got back to New York right, you had second thoughts

you yourself, had second thoughts about this idea, why, wh- wh- what were your second thoughts? [Carey]: I only had second thoughts about it to the ex- eh, I I had second thoughts about the freedom rides only to the extent that I wasn't sure that the organization would would would endorse it. Tom- Tom and I were both we were both dedicated to the idea that it w- it wo- it would work it was a good idea. Uh, but we were skeptical that the organization would e- would endorse it. Uh, and of course we found that we we were wrong I mean there there was an overwhelming acceptance of it. [interviewer]: Explain to me just a little bit about who CORE was, ya know CORE CORE was this kind of you know it was I think you know that, cause one of the things that that has unfortunately happened to CORE is CORE got known for- later CORE. No offense [they laugh] But you know and and and you know also you're dealing with now generations of people, um, could you just wipe your eye.

?inaudible? [Carey]: CORE's CORE's name was really the congress of racial equality and the reason it was called a congress was a it was a it was an organization of grass roots, um, entities all around the country. Uh, for example g- give contrast to the NAACP. NAACP was was nationally directed fr- from them from them head office of the NAACP in New York. Um, they pretty much use their chapters to raise money to carry on litigation and that sort of thing. Uh, but they w- but the organization was run from the top down. CORE was completely run from the bottom up. And was the, uh, the core had no authority whatsoever to direct its chapters to do anything except to abide by the principles of of Gandhi and nonviolence.

And if they didn't do that they could be expelled from the organization, but other than that, local chapters did what they felt was the right thing, best thing to do in their own communities to end discrimination and and and segregation. Or in the early days they did it in in in public accommodations later on in employment and housing and that sort of thing. So CORE was a fairly interracial organization, started in 1942, um, and a- and until until the 1960's uh, maintained a very interracial nature. As time went on, the the because of the student movements and so on it became increasingly taken over by young people and and and blacks and um, people like me became old hand and old old timers and uh, you know we're we we we were not at the ages 20 something or other I was I was old school [laughs] [interviewer]: Umm, so

were the freedom rides a a a an an action by the New York office only then if it was [Carey]: Well the the New York office the national office of CORE in in addition to supporting its chapters, providing bail money and guidance and all that sorta thing. Uh, and addition to that we also ran national projects. But these national projects had to be approved by the national action committee, which was a committee made up of of representatives of the various CORE chapters. So yes it was th- the freedom rides were run outta outta the international CORE office but we recruited members from all over the country and the actions had all been endorsed in fold by the by the chapters. [interviewer]: Umm, just talk to me a little bit about the name, ya know freedom rides. Ya know I heard you some saying that

an an an an you know I mean ya know that's one of the things that that that i- is really important in in in some weird way, [Carey]: Yep. [interviewer]: it's what we call stuff. [Carey]: Tom Gaither and I on that on the bus coming up from um, Claflin College, South Carolina to to New York um, and and reading about the talking about the journey of reconciliation, talking about the march the sea by Gandhi and so on and and this this notion of of um, taking a bus from Washington to New Orleans. We simply figured we had to come up with something that was catchy and um, what could be nicer it seemed to us then then to freedom ride so we we wed- we decided that was a great thing to call it and I I caught on and and Jim Farmer and others endorsed that idea of the name, and um, it became the freedom ride. [interviewer]: How much we have left Bobby? [Bobby]: Umm, 3. [interviewer]: Can you just start over from umm- [Bobby interjects] [interviewer]: Yeah, if you want. We got we had to we had to come up with a name and we and we came up with ?inaudible? freedom ride, we just have a motorcycle or something go by and- [Carey laughs]: Oh, okay.

[interviewer]: Sorry. Um, so you know you can start with you know we came up with the [Carey]: So Tom and I came up with with the name freedom ride as it has a catchy um, term for this action. It- it seemed like you know just like Gandhi who had to have, uh, publicity about things. We needed publicity in order to achieve our goals and freedom ride sounded like something that that would resonate. [interviewer]: More than journey of reconciliation