thumbnail of Assignment America; 114; The New South, Parts 1 and 2
Transcript
Hide -
[music] [music playing in background] [Doris Kearns]: Hello, I'm Doris Kearns, and we're here on Lookout Mountain, Tennessee, scene of the famous Civil War battle. A battle above the clouds. A battle won by the North as a decisive turning point in the War Between the States. The North won that battle as indeed they won the war. But in many ways the deeper struggle, the struggle as Frederick Douglass put it, to save the black man's body and the white man's soul is still going on. We're here today to talk about that struggle with John Popham, managing editor of The Chattanooga Times, a
journalist who has devoted his life and career to the documentation of that ongoing battle. [music] [music playing in background] [Kearns]: During the Civil War period, Chattanooga was a railway center. The Chattanooga Choo Choo was a ponderable reality, not just a set of lyrics. Today the main terminal sells no train tickets; it sells tickets only for food. It has been converted into a restaurant. A restaurant called,
obviously, the Chattanooga Choo Choo. Although Chattanooga has dramatically changed over the years, some things have remained virtually unaltered. The Chattanooga Times is one of those durables. And inside this building you will find the office of John Popham. You covered the South for 30 years I gather, in, both as an editor and as a reporter. I wonder if you could recreate the, the feelings and the attitudes that you saw when you first came down here to cover it for the Times in the late 1940s. How is it different then from now? [John Popham]: Well I think the thing about the South at that particular time is that it was viewed by the rest of the nation pretty much as a monolithic South, [inaudible] allbeit in a form of a caricature, again it might be some antebellum lost innocence and that sort of thing. And Southern leadership for the most part, eh, wanted to picture the South
in the ways that were favorable to them and success in their offices and in their interests in the region vis a vis the nation. But actually, the South, even then, was a South of many Souths, many Souths. Many cultural influences, many different histories and human experiences that had taken place, whether it was in the coastal area that is largely what we call the Black Belt South makes up a great deal of it. Black Belt because it's the black soil where the cotton plantation economy took effect. And then you have what we call the Piedmont, the middle part of the South, the rolling hills and so forth. And this, of course, became an industrial South earlier than the other part. And it changed with the demands of industry and had very little to do with the farm economy. And this is, of course, the South largely from which those who left the farms where they couldn't make a living, where they may have been unhappy came largely to the Piedmont area. So there you got them an industry. You've got the demands they had to make. And this, of
course, is where a large part of the industrial forces of the rest of the country came to invest in the South, and therefore there was a brushing against other people with different views. And you knew that these things would have some impact in some way if you could get away from a monolithic view of the South. And then there's a historic mountain South, which is somewhat isolated and is the Appalachia South that we talk about pretty much. But it, in turn, had an entirely different history than the other two parts of the South, since it was so isolated. As you know, many writers still refer to the fact that it has touches of Elizabethan language in it. It has, it has all sorts of Scottish tribal clan customs and so forth. And it has a very small portion of blacks. And consequently, the political processes of the South in the other two regions and with the plantation dominance of the legislation, they won the agreement in effect of the entire state, we will say, and then the entire South in that sense to the
picture of, of racial separation and eh [Kearns]: Why did they have dominance? I mean why were they able to impose their view on the [inaudible] [Popham, speaking over Kearns]: Well they had been the wealthy part with the large, you know, interest; and the planter was the wealthy man, not the industrial people. And consequently, through his wealth he was able largely to have his representatives in the, in the, in the legislature in larger number or to influence those who were willing to be influenced for his needs in other parts of the South. [Kearns]: What happened if you were a, a white moderate during that time in the 1940s? Could you meet with other whites and discuss your positions on race? [Popham]: The reprisals would be usually in two forms. If it's in some small town and someone largely seemed to be too liberal and become a sort of a threat, sort of threat to the status quo, well then you might well have the, the night rider, the Klan approach, you know, a cross burned at your home or something of that sort. [Kearns]: Who was in the Klan in those days? What kind of people would belong to the Klan? And Was it a broad spread? [Popham]: Well the Klan in 1947 was pretty much
of, of, of, of, of a hoodlum type, plus a poor white type that, eh, that, eh, would turn to violence and, eh, and eh, and was easily led, whose life was a very frustrating thing to him. And this gave him a feeling and all that, that he was superior to something and that he was protecting the society and so forth. There's a mixture there. The, the, the Klan as such, of course, is an abomination. But eh, but the, but the, you must understand that many of the people that are in it come out of, come out of backgrounds, you know, that would just by their very nature, the, the apathy, the dullness, the flatness of their lives, the, the just sheer mediocrity of everything they've ever run into. They're always behind in everything. You know why they're going to end up in some organization like that quite often. Eh, you'll find many people have, have a, have a, have a deep feeling for that type of person. But the ones who largely lead it, the ones who, the ones who organize it are usually on the bully boy side. There's a, there's a feel for violence, and you settle everything in this truculent way. [Kearns]: At that time
did the police reinforce what the Klan was doing or did they try and do something to stop the Klan's activities? [Popham]: Not very effectively [laugh]. And that, of course, was the story in the 1947 and 48, it became quite an issue in the South, as one of the big national stories was the unmasking of the Klan. All of a sudden, there became enough influence among the blacks, enough among the moderate whites, enough among the national press, and the spotlight and so forth, that they decided then that the first step would be to make it a violation of a state law or city ordinance to parade masked. And if you pulled the mask away, you destroyed a great deal of [inaudible] [Kearns]: Do you remember any experiences personally with the Klan when you were growing up in the South? [Popham]: Oh when I was a boy, the Klan used to parade through the town I lived in every Saturday. It's in the early 1920s. It was very strong in the country then, you know, one of its perhaps a peak of its power at that time. And, ehm, I used to know a little girl that, eh, I went to high school with and, eh, her mother was dead and her father was in the Klan. And
she was Catholic, and I was Catholic. And I used to date her. You know, on Saturday I would sit on the porch in the evening, you know, a Southern custom. And her father would come back from the Klan parade and take upstairs and take off his regalia and then come down and sit on the porch and have a very pleasant talk with us. At that time, of course, they had spent all Saturday denouncing the Catholics or the Jews or the blacks in the country. But these are the paradoxes you learn to live with. I was home folks. [Kearns]: The South is really caught up in ritual. [Popham]: Ritual and symbolism, yes indeed, and language and rhetoric. And, you know, at times it's so hard to change. You have to know the language. You know, when the 1954 court decision came down declaring that segregated schools were unconstitutional per se, it was very, very important that it be a unanimous decision, which it was. [Kearns]: Important to whom? [Popham]: Oh I just think anybody [laugh] that realized it had to be implemented in, in any part of the country. The, the, the, the myths and the logic as I say in the rhetoric and the stories were told. You, you couldn't have one break. One
person said no it's not unconstitutional, that's all they needed. Now when the court came with a unanimous decision, I guess that was Warren's great contribution to the court was that he got a unanimous decision out of them. And this is where those historical divisions began to take effect that you could sense. What is the price tag? As I say, You, you start off and, and you say segregation of the schools. Then you say desegregate. Then you say integrate. Well integrate became a bad word, and desegregate became a rather modest bad word. Then finally they got to the point that the, that the, that decisions were made in the courts of what would be done. This was the Judge [inaudible] Hoffman's decision, as I recall it, in Norfolk, Virginia, which was, in effect, that if you were to close down a school when integration issue took place you would have to close down all the schools in the system. And this, of course, meant that literally thousands and thousands of white people living in larger cities in the South, moving to the suburbs, having some affluence and good jobs, seeing this great changing economy, you know, this thing we see
crumbling today, was building up at that time. And the part of the good life that they were taking of, and the interdependence of the nation and its economy, the new industrial south, and the urban, eh, world that came to them, they liked it. And suddenly they realize that the, that the, that they have been told that the wife in effect is going to sit home with about four brawling kids, [Kearns laughs over Popham] [Popham]: no place to go, no education, no credentials. In effect, they sent word back, we didn't mean it that far. [Kearns laughing] [Popham]: And consequently, you had to find new languages. So suddenly, the, the rubric became save our schools. [Laugh] Then it would become something else, you know. But then what you get is, it, in this mythologizing process, suddenly, you know, it would be as though there never was really an ugly white Southerner. They all are people of gentility, and they all wanted this thing to come about. And the best ones have led it into it. And we're going to know you get the word we're going to build a new South, a South that's unlike those horrible people up East, that has no, has no ghettos. A South that has no sprawl. A South that has no sameness of motels and highways. We're going to
retain, we're going to retain our, our civilities, our courtesies, our lovely, eh, ways, you see. Well that's all fine, except [laugh] the broader understanding of the human nature is [inaudible] the beast within. [laugh] There's good and bad in everybody, and, eh, you have to be a little careful. You can't just decide that you're going to be lovely. You may find out you're duping the same poor, [laugh] the same downtrodden, and so forth. And again, though, the, the language is what they love, but, but I have no objection to 'em doing that at this time, because as long as they work within that language framework they'll do better than they did before. [Kearns]: Now when you came to the Chattanooga Times, I gather that in 1957- 58 the paper then had a reputation for being quite liberal on the question of race; and, in fact, had lost some circulation as a result of that. [Popham]: Yes, when the court decision was handed down, this paper was one of those in the South that supported it as a proper decision in the framework of the Constitution, that the whites of this segment of the population supported it vigorously.
And then, of course, the reprisals that I said took place you know. And, eh, we lost a, a considerable amount of circulation. And we, we paid what price we did. But again we're in this, we're in this, in this town of the of the, of the mountain South basically, and the, the conservative outlook on things, and the cautious willingness to advance. And it's not an ugly conservatism really. It's much more the mountain man's conservative values you get from scratching out a living in the hard soil and the slowness with which you approach changes, eh, that, that you're not always sure all going to be of value to him. [Kearns]: How did it work itself out in the internal dynamics of the newspaper itself? Was that a, a very difficult issue? [Popham]: No, no, we didn't, didn't have that here, no, no. I would assume I'm sure that generally speaking perhaps in, in, in your craft unions, you know, eh, largely they would be more, more, more disposed to, to, to the, to the don't change view. But they don't have anything to do with the editorial department. Nobody's going to listen to them. If they feel that way that's
tough. They get paid here. [Kearns]: Now I understand there's an interesting connection between the New York Times and the Chattanooga Times. [Popham, talking over Kearns]: Well, Mr. Adolph Ochs, you know, who grew up in Knoxville, Tennessee, and came here to Chattanooga when he was 20 years of age, and bought this newspaper, which was a failing newspaper at that time, the Chattanooga Times. And, eh, built this paper into a, a rather noted newspaper in the South in the Reconstruction period. Well, he built a little dome building up here, there's something of a landmark and where, eh, presidents would come, you know, to speak for, eh, for party interests in this part of the South. So then he brought his paper to New York, you know, that is, he brought the format, and his approach to a responsible type of journalism. He had specialized in that sort of thing here in this community, being strongly attached to the community, and bringing into sharper focus all the forces that go to make a good community: schools, educators, scientists. He didn't have a larger [laugh] area to work with in the smaller town of the South, but when he got to New York this is
precisely what he did. [Kearns]: I gather you were with the New York Times as one of your early papers [Popham, over Kearns]: Hm. [Kearns]: and in the 1930s, and I wonder what the New York Times was like then compared to today? This, did you have that sense of it being a special paper even then? [Popham]: Oh yes, oh yes, yes, yes in the '20s and '30s, yes you did. It still had the correspondents abroad, you know, and the big names that you read in the paper. And it had a Washington bureau of some size, maybe a dozen men I guess then, [inaudible] not the 20 some some odd they have today. Had distinguished writers. It won the Pulitzer prizes. It, it, it was a, was a paper of stature. It certainly was. [Kearns]: During the civil rights movements in the '60s, the South was badgered they may have felt by many Northerners coming down here from the North to the South to worry about the South's business. How did people in the South feel about that? [Popham]: Well, the white South there was a fairly much a feeling that they were being intruded upon by outsiders who, eh, who in many instances they felt were trying to, to foster their own image as liberals and activists in their own part of the country, and who wouldn't be here
to see what happened afterward, where the damage might be done. Of course, to many of the blacks many of these people were voices of, of national esteem and prestige; and on the contrary, they were constant reminders that the rest of the country wanted this to become about and would work for it, and would work for it. And there I would like to make this point: eh, I don't think there's any way in the world that this could have been brought about without the political pressures and demands from the rest of the country. I don't think the South was about to do it on his own. No matter how, as I say, they may mythologize it for future generations. [Kearns]: What is the feeling here in the South among the white people in looking at the situation in Boston and seeing all that the turmoil that's going on in busing up there? Is there anger? Revenge? [Popham, talking over Kearns]: Well, I, I would, I would assume that for the most part there is a sort of a satisfaction, at least you didn't do any better than we did. That's only human people are going to feel that way. The fact that it's Boston I guess is more shocking in some ways to them, because, you know, Boston is a sort of center of the
abolition movement. And it's written into, you know, the, the law of the country plus the revolutionary period, and here's the bicentennial starting, you know. So I say I guess there's a feeling of satisfaction out of it. But at this point the South had made enough advances of its own that there wouldn't be any rollbacks. It might well be that a place can slow its feet for a little while because of the Boston thing. Well if they can't force it up there, how can they force it here, you know? But in the meantime, what's emerged, is so many fine blacks, you know, of leadership ability. Young people in law schools, medical schools. Not in the numbers, but they're still there. And literally hundreds of them. And, of course, you see the black athlete winning all the championships in football, basketball at southern universities, and so forth. So you, you've got a, a group of people to work with that you never had before. [Kearns]: Isn't there something else that makes it, uhm, more or less unlikely that they'll be a rollback, which is that many of the vested interests who might have wanted a rollback 20 years ago now are economically benefiting by integration? [Popham, talking over Kearns]: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Very true, yes indeed, particularly those with national ties. Or if they're regional and they, they, they see their interdependence of the total economy. And they don't want a rollback I would think, because they also know that a rollback in the end is not going to be successful. And all you're going to do is just suffer damage to your property, your name, and everything else. It's far better to work it out this way. I think that still prevails largely in the South. Not everywhere, I'm sure there are intransigents. But it does prevail pretty largely in the South. I think that you've got to remember, too, how many of the people were really just warm and pleasant people, you know, caught up in a great enormous social [inaudible] changeover. Had never really understood anything about it or much about themselves or what kind of a history they came from or anything. [Kearns]: But when you look at young children today in the South, young white children, can you discern noticeable changes in their attitudes toward blacks from the way they would have been growing up 30 years ago say? [Popham]: Well say generally speaking yes with, ah, little differences. If you come from a, an economically poor family and you come from a family that's very stern of the discipline
that's imposed within the family circle, and that family has a, has a, a low regard for the black, and that child even with some black associations and so forth is likely to, to, to, to, to still stand firm with what his family has told him. But before he never had any association with a black in the classroom. And it is just a matter of, eh, eh plain wisdom that even though he carries this burden with him of feeling the black is, is, is, is low and, and so forth, he's still exposed, he still may make a little friendship somewhere. And he may well be that his people know that if he is to make some advances he's going to have to, in this society, have some higher education: finish high school, get training in one of the vocational, go to college, something of that sort, or get a job and study some at night for special things to advance. And all of this area will be, will be largely integrated with intelligent and able blacks, and he will pull away from his family ties. And I'd have to say that, that it's got to be better in the sense that none of that
existed 30 years ago. [laugh] Not one single [inaudible] [Kearns, talking over Popham]: It's like there was, there was nothing to counter that family that was racist. [Popham]: [inaudible] No, you could go right on into your grave, and that myth was just as true as it ever was and you'd never had an experience. And you were backed by the law and the decision makers; and even what to you, even what you might have been those who assured you of some reward in Valhalla later on. [Kearns]: How much would you guess has really changed in the daily lives of the blacks? I mean we've talked about the rhetoric changing, the attitudes changing. [Popham]: Well, I would have to, I would have to make a distinction there. If you say in the daily lives of the blacks not, not too much, not too much. But if you say in the daily lives of gifted blacks and those for whom things come together, then fairly good, fairly good. And eh, enough for them to do real work. It's, it's, it's the youngster whose family can get him through high school and into college, who is well motivated, who can go to almost any school in the South, you know, and who can enter its professional schools, who can now move and associate with the intelligent, eh, and sensitive white people, and openly associate with each other,
eat in public restaurants, share in the leadership of the community, going to the finest clubs in Atlanta, eating in the best restaurants, participating in the, the decision making process, which always does something to you, you know. Well that measure of black, of course, it's wonderful. That didn't exist in any form whatsoever. Everything was, was double from drinkin' fountain on. Now he plays on the golf links; he swims at the beaches; he goes to the best hotels; and he shares in the decision making apparatus that gives every person a feeling of who he is, and what's good about his life, and what he can do. And for the blacks that are able to do that, and as I say none participated in that before, those that can, and that's a very remarkable change and a very good show. And it can't do anything but improve. What I must say that for the large measure of the blacks, the economic conditions for them largely is such they just can't get. The majority of them still are going to be falling out of school, dropouts. They can't get jobs. They're, they're, they're, they're the first to be fired, you know. And then, of course,
many of them, eh, eh, have lived in, in, in slum areas, in depressed areas. And life is just totally bleak for them; and this may lead to violence, to crime to, to, to [inaudible] what's beyond what's acceptable at the given moment. And their lives are unhappy lives. [Kearns]: Do you think there's a possibility now of an alliance between the poor whites and the blacks in the South to form some sort of a populist movement? [Popham]: I'm not sure that populism it, it, it would, it would be an effective instrument for the black and white poor in, in the South. The black is moving too much into the urban areas and, uh, he has too many things at stake to form just an alliance with the poor white. I think if you've got any alliance it would be through the other institutions. That is, let's say labor became effective in the South. Eh, it's not very effective in the South, you know. But let's assume it did. Eh, something of that sort, where they would be conscious, you know, of their, of their of their, of their common bonds in the labor movement and would, would back candidates that they understood were favorable to the cause of labor. One never knows when that might come. You
know, it was tried with a progressive party and Tom Watson. And then, of course, when Watson lost his elections, he became a rather angry man. He became [Kearns, talking over Popham]: I know. [Popham]: very mad about the black, you know, and, and so forth. And this has happended several times. In a sense, eh, a little bit of George Wallace, you know. He was liberal and um, and, and eh, and right after the war and a dynamic young veteran, and anxious for the, the South. He and Terry Sanford were delegates to the young Democratic convention here, were two of the hottest liberals in the crowd. And then when he lost an election there in Alabama, he, his own phrase was that, ah, ah "Nobody's going to out nigger me anymore." And he became the strong advocate of, of, of, of segregation. But now Wallace is conciliatory toward the black. He has a black in his cabinet. He put a black high up in the police enforcing area of the state patrol. He's attended many ceremonies where, where, where blacks are honored. And he's been endorsed by the black mayor of Tuskegee. Interestingly enough on that, eh, when you were talking about him coming together, eh, Congressman Andrew
Young in Atlanta, one of the more dynamic young black spokesman in the South, eh, last year, just last April, right after the Tuskegee mayor had endorsed Wallace, he, eh, spoke to the American Society of Newspaper Editors, which was having its annual convention in Atlanta that year. And that's some 750 editors of the major papers throughout the country. And in Young's, eh, very articulate and colorful manner, he, he, let them know that he was having no part of that, no part of that. He wanted to assure Mr. Wallace and his followers that there would be no black, eh, following him across the board of the South. I don't, I don't think Wallace will appear, appeal to blacks across the South. You've got to realize that nobody is saying anything about it now, but when you bring out your other guns, [laugh] when you remind people of things that took place and things he said, he's going to be bound by his own quotes from the other days. [Kearns]: That kind of actual appeal to racism can no longer be made at a political level? [Popham]: I think it's gone in any sizable city. You might always have a rural county or a small town where
some sort of a, a political tyranny, eh, lives for a while till it's finally found [laugh] and, um, and so forth. But I would say in the, in the, in the, in the cities and the growing towns of the South, eh, you would only occasionally have, have something like that happen. It would be very brief. I can't see anybody having the great power where he can come to, to national, uh, uh, conventions and be a delegate and espouse this sort of thing. No, I don't think so. I think that's gone. What I, I would certainly say that when you, you take the number of leaders that came out of that crisis period, you know, both black and white, and the friendships they formed, and the understandings, and the work that they went through, I think, eh, shows it's success in the South. Not great stuff, understand, but still rather remarkable. And I think all of those people deserve a wonderful pat on the back, as well as the people up East, who in many instances funded them, and fought for them, and worked political battles in other parts of the country.
Oh no, a, a great deal of, of, of the thing, I mean whether the, the, the great gaps in the areas, you know, that you still don't like; but still in terms of institutions, in the country, and human beings, and how deep the myth was, those who did it, those who did it, I'm talking about quite a few thousand people, but those who did it were certainly Americans in, in, in the best sense - full of good humor, full of decency. [Kearns, talking over Popham]: Maybe they'll be in Valhalla. [laugh] [Popham]: Hm? [Kearns]: Maybe they'll be the first in Valhalla. [Popham]: I would hope so. I would hope so. Valhalla would be a rather nice place. [laughter] [Kearns]: Thank you very much, Mr. Popham. John Popham belongs to an old South and a new South. He was born into the former. And in many ways helped create the latter. He is one of a line of distinguished Southern journalists, who helped bring his readers to a mirror of conscience, something we all, in the North as well as the South, could benefit from. Thank you. [music playing] [music continues]
[music playing in background] I'm Studs Terkel. And next week on Assignment America two of the nation's political cartoonists, Bill Mauldin and Patrick Oliphant, share with you their wit and pungent political commentary in the first part of the two part program called, "If it's big, hit it." That's next week on Assignment America. [music continues] For a transcript of tonight's program, please send $1 to Assignment America, WNET 13, Box 345, New York, New York 10019 [music playing] [music continues] [music continues] [music ends]
Series
Assignment America
Episode Number
114
Episode
The New South, Parts 1 and 2
Producing Organization
Thirteen WNET
Contributing Organization
Thirteen WNET (New York, New York)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip/75-9351cfpr
If you have more information about this item than what is given here, or if you have concerns about this record, we want to know! Contact us, indicating the AAPB ID (cpb-aacip/75-9351cfpr).
Description
Episode Description
A two-part investigation, by Doris Kearns, of the South of the 1970s, with Congressman Andrew Young (D.-GA.), former Executive Director of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and John Popham, editor-in-chief of the Chattanooga (Tenn.) Daily Times.
Broadcast Date
1975-04-08
Created Date
1975-04-04
Asset type
Episode
Topics
Social Issues
Media type
Moving Image
Duration
00:29:02
Embed Code
Copy and paste this HTML to include AAPB content on your blog or webpage.
Credits
Producing Organization: Thirteen WNET
AAPB Contributor Holdings
Thirteen - New York Public Media (WNET)
Identifier: wnet_aacip_3174 (WNET Archive)
Format: U-matic
Generation: Master
Duration: 01:00:00?
If you have a copy of this asset and would like us to add it to our catalog, please contact us.
Citations
Chicago: “Assignment America; 114; The New South, Parts 1 and 2,” 1975-04-08, Thirteen WNET, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 29, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-75-9351cfpr.
MLA: “Assignment America; 114; The New South, Parts 1 and 2.” 1975-04-08. Thirteen WNET, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 29, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-75-9351cfpr>.
APA: Assignment America; 114; The New South, Parts 1 and 2. Boston, MA: Thirteen WNET, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-75-9351cfpr