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...gram is from WNET-13. [music plays] Last week Black Journal presented Part One: Martin Luther King, an Evaluation a study of the man and his life, and the effect of his life and death on black people. This week, an evaluation of John Williams' book The King that God Didn't Save. "[Host]: One of the allegations in the book that you just quoted from asserts that Martin Luther King was never really picked as a leader by Black people. Rather, he was developed as an image by the White press, sold him to Black people.
What are your views on that?" "[Guest]: Well, I would just say that, uh- it's- it's not exactly- I don't think that's exactly correct, I think it's correct to say that King emerged, ah, from, ah, a lot of activity, ah in the- the early stage -- what Reverend Jesse Jackson calls the humiliation stage -- we're fighting humiliation in the South, the back of the bus thing. He emerged as, uh, a leader, um Somehow, I- there's a lot of, uh, there are people in Montgomery today who can talk to you about how King came out on top in that, in that thing. But, uh, he was a minister, a leader of a group of people, and he came out of that, um, bus boycott at a time when, I don't know the- I forget- television and all that, but television began to function at that time, uh, on- on the boycott, and television looks for a, you know, person to focus on, and it
seemed that King was out there to be focused on. And, uh, just as I think black people, uh, got to see him, and he said the right things, and they were willing to follow him- more people willing to follow him because more people saw him on television. I don't think exactly that he was a creature of, a journalistic creature. I think that he was more- they didn't vote for him and a lot of people who followed him were in his congregation, but, uh, I know my mother followed him in a sense, but she wasn't in his congregation, so I go..." "[Guest 2]: I would, I would say that the, uh, you know, King came out of the people, you know, they say- what is the saying that- the statement that, uh, that the times, you know, create the leader, you know instead of the other way around, you know, the leader doesn't create the time, the time creates the leader. I read this book here, I ?purchased? that book a long time ago with some fear and trepidation, and John Williams' book The King that God Didn't Save, and I
also posted what is also a sense of sort of disgust, you know, too, because first of all I'd heard so much about it, and the front pages were just filled, of newspapers were filled around the country with the story carried by AP and UPI, you know, in terms of, uh, well, certain indiscretions and so on and so on, that the FBI had tapes etc etc on King. And so when I read the book, I read it with, approached first with a sort of disgust and fear too. 'Cause I was saying to myself, well, as a Black man, you know, doing this kind of work for a person like J Edgar Hoover, you know. And after I read it and put it down, I was sort of nonplused. And then I went back and read it again before I came on this show, and I realized why I was nonplussed. Because this man makes certain statements about- well, for example, he says that King died, you know, that he didn't understand the nature of what he was up against, that the White people gave him a feather duster and that, and then they killed him and all that sort of thing. But that isn't true. I mean, King understood very well what he was
coming up against, and he verbalized very often. I'm going to get to this other portion of the question in just a minute, I just want to touch on that. But, um. The reason why I found out that I was nonplussed about this book was the fact that he would make, John Williams would make these kind of statements, you know, at first, and then further on in the book would come back and clean them up, you know, just when I would say, Ahha, he's got a bad point here and I can cut him down on, you know. I'd turn over two three pages, and he's come right full circle, you know, and- and- made certain acknowledgement, you know. I think it's a cynically commercial book, and I wanted to tell him that. "[Guest 3]: To the question about the press. I think you have to go to the old statement you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and that, uh, the press has given a lot of other people plenty of national publicity. They never became, they never developed a big national following among Black people. Why? Because King, no matter whether you disagree with him or not, King had the charisma and the feel for a large segment of Black America. That's why he was a leader. Now, the press, any– if you're gonna say the press made him, the press of course makes any
man, give any man a national reputation, international protection that includes Whites too. You know. But I've know a lot of people who've been in the press day after day after day, but they never developed a mass following. You got to have more than the press operating for you, you know, to, to make a mass following, 'cause of course I have to defend King and ?this double? because many people used to make the same statement about Brother Malcolm. And I, I just just make the same statement — that you cannot make a, you know, a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If- I know plenty of people who've gotten the same type of publicity Brother Malcolm got day after day, but they never developed the type of mass following he had, because he had more than the press going for him. So, I disagree with that whole concept- this is another concept: I think that the press likes the ?fielders? — you know, they, you know, they make this, they make, you know- and they do this- I mean, the press is important, I don't deny that. But in that sense, they are important to any national or international leader. I mean, you wouldn't know- you know, if they didn't cover Nixon every day, you wouldn't know what he was doing. You know, so in that sense, you can say they make Nixon- if you, you know, the person that covered Agnew's speech out in Iowa, he'd still be, you know, just a vice president. So in that sense, you know, the press makes- you know, makes anybody, you know, just by covering them. So I don't- I don't agree with
that concept— the press has built up Black people who have never been able to develop a following among- among the Black masses." "?[Host]:? I'd just like to point out on this press and the leaders- the White press, one of the most- I would say, one of the major concerns of the White media in, in the Black area— and I guess it'll extend to the other minority areas— is who is a, quote, whatever it is, who is a Negro leader? How do you tell? This is their great concern, that they won't talk to, you know, so-and-so by mistake if he's not really a leader, and this other one, or they'll- they'll get confused, and they like to think that they- they- they make leaders, and they like very much to know, they like to have a little scorecard: how do you judge who is a Negro leader? And then they can be happy." "[Guest 3]: If King did not have the following of the ear, you know, of thousands of Black people in the South, no matter what the press did about the Montgomery bus boycott, he would not have emerged as the man who took over the leadership. You know, I mean, I just think that- I just don't think that you've got to have more than the press going for you. Because there've been too many times when the press have built up people,
and they- you know, they didn't make it because they didn't have that- whatever it is that's necessary." "[?Guest 1?] They'd like to build up Bayard Rustin, for example, there's a guy that the New York Times- I'm sure the Times and other papers would really like to make Bayard Rustin a great Negro leader, great Negro philosopher, and all that- which he may well be, but there's nobody following him. [Guest 3]: There's no mass following." "[Host]: Why- why would it be in their interest to make him...?" "[Guest 1]: Well, I would assume, if it's in someone's interest to do something, it's because that person that- for whom you're doing it is not going to hurt your interest. You know what I mean?" "[Guest 3]: So, you know, right- so, it's- it's take more than the press... takes more than the press. Now, to get to the book. I disagree with, with Brother Chester about- about The King that God Didn't Save. I read the book with the idea that here was a book about- Here was a book which showed, I think, more than anything else, more than a book that I have read, exactly how the establishment of the people who actually run the country tried to control Black leaders.
Now, I do not blame- I can- if I was a follower of Martin Luther King, you know, really believed in his philosophy, there's absolutely nothing in this book that would make me change my mind. Nothing, absolutely nothing. Because, like, you know, you hear all the- you hear rumors about all the leaders, you know, you hear rumors. I'm sure that if someone had written a book like this about Brother Malcolm, I'd've probably been very hot under the collar, you know, at the author who wrote it. But that still would not make me- you know, one single minute in my mind did not doubt- me doubt that Brother Malcolm was the greatest Black man that I have known, you know, since I've been alive. And so on. But I found the book very informative, and I would make the book, you know, required reading. You know, for- potential black leaders." "[Guest 1]: You feel that the book dealt fairly with King?" "[Guest 3]" I feel that the book- that the book dealt fairly with him. I think that the book didn't print anything, you know, like you say- all these things- I've been hearing these rumors- some of the things, you know, the so-called scandals, you know, that go on- I mean, those rumors were going all around throughout the Black community. You know, that- that was no- nothing new that people had not heard about, you know- you had heard about, you know, J Edgar Hoover, you know, bringing him down, but how could anyone doubt that?
I mean, White politicians don't attack J Edgar Hoover. You know? I mean, you got some of the biggest cats down there in Washington, man, they don't mess with J Edgar Hoover, because J Edgar Hoover has the information on everybody. And nobody hasn't- you know, is free and hasn't done anything. So I think any King follower, or any person who supports King, who changed their mind because of his book, you know, must not have have had- you know, this does not negate in one second anything that King did. You know, all it does is, you know, it shows- it shows the- to me, it's a really really good example of the, you know, of what- you know, what is- what Black leaders, you know, who are trying to do something are really up against. I mean, it really shows what they're up against. And I'm talking about those, you know, who are really, you know, out there trying to, you know, trying to accomplish something for Black people. I found the book, you know, very very interesting. I read it, you know, I- once I got into it, I, you know, I just, you know, I read it all the way through, I couldn't put it down. And I came in with the idea, man, of really seeing the types of things that a man, you know, who, who really gets into a leadership position, you know, where he- I mean, where he looks upon the Bl-, you know, the Black struggle on both a national, a local and
national and on the international level. You know, you understand what this man has to really go through. I got some of it- you know, like, I got a lot of it from working with Brother Malcolm when he was alive in the last year of his life. And I saw the things that he had to go through, not only with, you know, with- with- with- with be with- with- Black people. You know, the type of, you know, little infighting, you know, intrigues that go on. so, uh, and I think that's what this book did. I don't see, I didn't, and maybe of course if I had been a a a very very very stroll follower of Martin Luther King that I might have had a different, you know a different reaction. But I think even then it would not have changed my feelings about Martin Luther King and what he contributed. You know let me let me let me say let me say this. I've if I if I didn't like King you know if I had you know and I was trying to read something that would put me on to his bandwagon something you know this book would even turn me around either way wouldn't put me on a bandwagon or take me off what I thought about the book was that it was cynical in many respects you know in terms of King's overall philosophy and what he really
was about and the kind of leadership that he furnished in a people who are really following him you know. And on top of that I think the most well the worst thing I can say about the whole indiscretion thing is that it was titillating you know it's a petty sort of thing he refers to a guy and he called Brother bright and I think he's a Catholic priest he said. But he does name him. You know he said that I believe this on page one a one in a paperback he said but a biased identified Catholic priest. REPORTER There's a great deal of talk among Irish community about King's indiscretion mostly by an agent named K. and so on and so on. All these allusions are two to two veg people who don't have names and that sort of thing and he quotes people like Person B and C that one person B as soon as a woman who said that King didn't wasn't very discreet that he you know sat up and boldly talked to somebody who sat down beside him you know when she was with him or something like that you know. Do you make anything accusations
again. If you've got to bring these things out you know identify the sources of the people who they are and that sort of thing. Well they're not really a leading car you miss a leading columnist black car or you know who was the head of I think it was you us I when all this stuff is going on has written that. 90 percent over 90 percent of the stuff the FBI had on King so-called indiscretion I saw there was nothing of barnyard gossip you know. Nothing about barnyard gossip and here we have the you know leading off one of our black authors you know grown around insert in this town stuff in his book I just the way it is but I thought it was was was in bad taste. Look what he is saying is that what he is saying in this book is that this barnyard gossip was used by the FBI as a means of trying to control the King and I think we have to be aware of this. I have just you know and I think that's what he's saying I don't think that he is you know I mean like you say I you know I've heard you know much of it most of the stuff in his book you know from people you know. So that would cause it was
nothing new. But what I'm saying is that he was saying he was showing you how you know how you know some of the powers use things all the different things that a leader or a man you know has to fight up against when he's in a position that King was in and I really I don't know I get I don't get I don't get you know I don't know. It was I think I think given the whole tenor of the book you know and this is what I'm I'm dealing with the whole tenor of the book and that included you know this really teed me off. Let me just read a little something here which I agree with. This is I had an interview with Johnny Williams one time and after the book was published and John Williams says For me the key issue was the position of the three major religious groups on race which I think they're all rotten basic they are. That is they all have rotten basically rotten positions but they try to come across as having something that's pretty angelic That really was the key issue for me. And I he says he goes on he says that was there was that one section where I dealt with the three
faiths back to back. And I was very deeply involved because as I said in the book My oldest boy thought he wanted to become a minister and I couldn't in good conscience you know go along with that he thought it was a pretty shabby thing to be involved in that is being a minister. And he said his boy found off himself. And I was that was what impressed me in the book was the fact that the picture I got of the of the three faiths as they're called and how they dealt with the civil rights movement. And I think that's an important contribution in that book I mean I don't really it doesn't bother me what King did like. It just doesn't I mean he can do anything he wants to me I would always use it as a text book. But he was showing but he constantly He says this with with malice aforethought and I wish John were here to defend himself as I talked with him earlier and he said well you know. Do what we will but he he defends the malice of forethought he says that he says that King was night he you know and his home approach to his home didn't you know there's no question about it that he was naive thing right here understood he understood
he understood the dangers inherent in what he was doing. He understood it was going to be a tough one he struggled. He understood at last will be lost in this whole ticket thing. I don't know how you can call that naive but you know it's just I don't really I don't get the impression from what I read about month. This is a statement such as this true pacifism is not a realistic submission to evil power as Reinhold Niebuhr contends it is rather a courageous confrontation of evil by the power of love and the fact that it is better to be the recipient of violence and the inflicting of it says the latter only multiplies it in the existence of violence and bitterness in the universe. While the former may develop a sense of shame in the opponent and thereby bringing about a transformation and a change of heart. Now as our president stick to me it doesn't sound naive really sounds idealistic and I think this is the type of leadership that we are that normal people a person you know a person one that people like whatever they like thinking this is one thing they like his idealism. He really but yes the idealism. I agree with you there but idealism has never since and I can remember idealism has never been able to to you know to
withstand against power. You know idealism idealism loses out that isn't true you know that is not going to win that is not to live in idealism but it's only because you have said now with that this country was formed by idealistic farmers man who took who didn't have any training who took up guns Minutemen who took up God and fought. For it to the death you know the real culture you know. And 17 717 76 whenever it was a no no not by IDs and we're not at war us they were idealistic knows they believed and the kind they may believe that you that walk you just don't know they have also the same man who wiped out the Indians aren't what they believed in what they were doing you know they believed in their cause in it but they never got on their car. Yeah I'm not saying that that's not true. That's you know these were the same men who did that with the same men who mercilessly you know destroyed almost an entire people. You know these are the same men whose families you know who bought all the slaves and who kept people slaves. Now the basic to treat a person as a slave and the to to to to to to to justify it
you have to regard that person is being less than you. You know you you only you only you can only shame someone I feel who looks upon you you know like you're with two human beings and so I can shame you for treating me wrongly. But when you look upon me as less than a human being you know you I cannot shame you by constantly telling you how terrible you are you know are letting you pound on me that hoping that if I don't strike back you will eventually you know see that you are wrong. I thought that well that's what I'm saying it was a what was it what was the net effect of kings of philosophy you know carried to it to to its completion. You know as far as you can imagine that effect other you know that the net effect of it would and I don't deny that out of the out of the out of the movie but you see when things begin to move the president in a more happen the point is now you have more elected black officials in the south today. You know you have hundreds of them in the south including Mississippi you have today a black man running. Or run for governor of the state. You may not make it. No you know but the
fact is that a black man to stand up in this in this category. You know the Nutcracker area where where psychotic white men have lived and castrated black men you know with impunity for years you know for doing for this time to vote much less run for office just no no I don't they don't and I don't you know I don't deny that there was a lot of good which came out of Martin Luther King's movement. But I'm saying that eventually you have to know when a particular tactic has reached its limits and I feel that the nonviolent tack it had had reached you know when he by the time he was assassinated I feel that that the civil rights movement as we knew it died would monitor King's assassination. I definitely did it so I didn't even something else altogether I dyde beat you know a king and I feel that that that that Tutu that this tactic you know might have been was very good at the time and use it in the context would use although even then it was you know people died and what has changed now is the attitude of black people have changed those made to come out and do lynchings Now there's one thing that is change. That why it was known that there's a good there's a good good
chance that they might not come back before to go out of Mississippi and into a black man was like going out to go hunting you know hunting a rabbit and the wives are the ones because they tell their husbands now you know you got to watch it when you go out there because the people are finally beginning to fight back. I understand. What is this what you thought about I knew it when one was going to dedicate our phone when you couldn't walk when you had to get off the sidewalk right about why cause why would people there were black people in the South who were willing to die on this nonviolent philosophy man who verbalize it who are you going to you know Nancy I'm not going to know who inspired more people to mobilize and organize against a king did it but I'm not denying that I would like a more not that King was part of a team that is winning that he had and he verbalized going on down there where there were people from especially the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee Snick and corps and so on and you had these people down there who were willing to really put their lives on the line. But being was the catalyst came was the swell he was Hamlet's person who could create was a capable public opinion
and these people went down there they went in many places in Alabama before King turned his I know that Alabama know those funds and dad you know I know Julian Bond and Rob Brown Stokely Carmichael Ralph had a stone you know and most of them some of them that you have never even heard of. You know no I know the kind of hot day to day thing that they faced in and allows County Alabama down and Mississippi and that sort of thing. But I'm telling you. In most of those places you know it was King who came through after they were there you know that inspired him brought together you know all these diverse forces you know just doing the things that Dan and inspire lady to snuff and who probably wouldn't get off they can't do you do anything you know try to better themselves socially and politically and also as King that's that that's right. If I brought a camera with you said the civil rights movement died with King
you said now we've got something altogether different. What do we have now. Well it's not exactly it's not really right now I don't have a you know it's like a different it's like an in-between period. There's you know like there are there are a lot of people you know doing a lot of things but the type of you know of the cohesive capital you know see capital oral civil rights movement you know it no longer exists. You know you have you have you know all the kind of all the facts and there's no there's no leader who has a national stature who has an international stature you know of the type that Martha King had all of that Malcolm X had among the people you know who believed in him. You know there's no there's nothing like that so what you have now is a more local or regional types of things. The you know what. He's talking about really you know here very much talk about the civil rights movement. You know very much anymore you know I used to say when I talk now I say the movement I want to talk about it in the past tense. I just you know and I think that when I say that is because the King was with the
essence or the the. The epitome of what the civil rights movement was all about you know. And when he was assassinated and there went the civil rights movement you know now out of that you have to vote you know that has developed that we like an in-between period eventually. You know I believe the necessity is the mother of invention and I think that eventually black people there's going to have to emerge a a national you know another national black leader if only as a symbolic like this country needs a president. You know we can you can have just 50 governors you know running things. You need some kind of you know central so to say this is not saying you're looking for a messiah is saying that you all the English recognize just by having the queen there. You know as a you know as a as the same as the symbol of national you know unity black people going to need that same kind of thing and somebody is going to have to emerge to you know to you know to feel that kind of role. I just like to say I think we have. While first on One Hundred Twenty fifth street the night the King was assassinated.
Young men and women ran around shouting they killed King and he was nonviolent. And I think that that to me that was if people understood what was going on. Secondly I think what you have going on now are a number of groups that are that you have two types of groups a number on that one category that is subject oriented. You have an end pan-Africanist in the. Ideology. Then you have another group of a group of I call them the middle class black middle class people who they who have Black Caucus's of economist journalists social workers doctors lawyers not doctors because they've always been organized the lawyers have to but you have new groups of lawyers now you have all these people all working in their own individual ways for what the new term for the movement which I feel is used as the black liberation struggle. And every everybody is working in a sense in his and her own way at this point.
And eventually things hopefully will converge if we can last long enough which I doubt I would say I would say this to him. Brown That is such a I agree with with Peter Bailey that. Out of this whole maelstrom we've got to develop another leader. We've got to develop a single person the star right. You know in terms of talk in terms of having a decentralized leadership you know who's going to know about it either way. So nobody can do it but I don't know what I'm saying is that the leader has to have has to be smitten with this kind of idealism so that he can weld together and bring together these disparate groups. He didn't that wasn't your messiah. No no I don't think I think I think he should you know that he's got to he's got to you got to be able to reach you know he's got to have this idealism that can capture the imagination of people make them want to be bigger than what it was around it to do any of the three of you have any suggestions. Is there any particular type of person around you because. I can't thank you all and I would think I wouldn't I would think that in young
Julian Bond I mean there's a potential there for this kind of idealistic you know leadership. I would doubt this because Julian Bond has been involved in the political struggle we want to get involved in that you get you you lose that you know that idealistic that you become You've come a very very shocked. Good man this time you know hyperbole but you really need a day really. There are a lot of younger guys who I think you know have shown that they can appeal to certain segments you know of the black community who and who who have a very very great charisma with that section that they represent for instance in my movie Rocco with his segment of Louis Farrakhan with his sex and Jesse Jackson with his sex and Julian Bond you know with his I would say these are the four that most you know the most come to my mind. But but whether or not either one of these you know can conform that symbol of of of you know of of unity of of you know of national
symbols and international symbols let's say that a that a Malcolm X you know I'm honored the king formed. I really don't know yet you know you did you'd have to see. You had things develop but to me it's announced it has to happen. All people you know you know in the African tribes they have the chief that all people have to have it he might not have very many powers you know he might be just a symbol but he's got to be up there. Who can you know when he speaks he speaks with kind of a you know the a thing where at least a huge large number of black people you know accept what he says you know and that and people around can say that when this man says something. There's you know he's speaking for literally thousands of people like me never got on with white America but America won't tolerate long tolerate this type of either you know his history has been very bloody in terms of idealistic leaders in Europe. Thank you very much. But. We've discussed hopefully some phases and elements of the
late Dr. Martin Luther King which might be useful for black people in contemporary America. And certainly there are many lessons to be learned from his life. I doubt I would.
Series
Black Journal
Episode Number
58
Episode
An Evaluation of Martin Luther King. Part 2
Contributing Organization
Thirteen WNET (New York, New York)
Library of Congress (Washington, District of Columbia)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip/62-7d2q52fm1v
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BLJL 000058
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Description
Episode Description
On this second part of a two-part program marking the fourth anniversary of Martin Luther King's assassination, three leading black journalists recall Dr. King through personal and professional experiences, reflecting on the times from which he and the civil rights movement emerged. They are Gerald Fraser, a New York Times reporter who frequently wrote articles on Dr. King and interviewed him on his last day in New York; Chester Higgins Sr., senior editor of Jet magazine and a former editor of the Detroit Courier; and Peter Bailey, an associate editor of Ebony magazine who has closely followed Dr. King's career.
Series Description
Black Journal began as a monthly series produced for, about, and - to a large extent - by black Americans, which used the magazine format to report on relevant issues to black Americans. Starting with the October 5, 1071 broadcast, the show switched to a half-hour weekly format that focused on one issue per week, with a brief segment on black news called "Grapevine." Beginning in 1973, the series changed back into a hour long show and experimented with various formats, including a call-in portion. From its initial broadcast on June 12, 1968 through November 7, 1972, Black Journal was produced under the National Educational Television name. Starting on November 14, 1972, the series was produced solely by WNET/13. Only the episodes produced under the NET name are included in the NET Collection. For the first part of Black Journal, episodes are numbered sequential spanning broadcast seasons. After the 1971-72 season, which ended with episode #68, the series started using season specific episode numbers, beginning with #301. The 1972-73 season spans #301 - 332, and then the 1973-74 season starts with #401. This new numbering pattern continues through the end of the series.
Broadcast Date
1972-04-11
Asset type
Episode
Topics
Race and Ethnicity
Media type
Moving Image
Duration
00:34:34
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Color: Color
Library of Congress
Identifier: 1833173-3 (MAVIS Item ID)
Generation: Master
Color: Color
Library of Congress
Identifier: 1833173-3 (MAVIS Item ID)
Generation: Master
Color: Color
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Citations
Chicago: “Black Journal; 58; An Evaluation of Martin Luther King. Part 2,” 1972-04-11, Thirteen WNET, Library of Congress, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 29, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-62-7d2q52fm1v.
MLA: “Black Journal; 58; An Evaluation of Martin Luther King. Part 2.” 1972-04-11. Thirteen WNET, Library of Congress, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 29, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-62-7d2q52fm1v>.
APA: Black Journal; 58; An Evaluation of Martin Luther King. Part 2. Boston, MA: Thirteen WNET, Library of Congress, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-62-7d2q52fm1v