Independent Sources; The Gypsy Mystique

On this edition of Independent Sources, the gypsy mystique, a new generation of Roma is trying to dispel the stereotypes of their culture being one of musician's feeds and fortune tellers. It is an America. What's prompting more African Americans to proclaim themselves as non-believers? And remembering the dead, two artists marked the celebrated holiday Eldia de los Muertos in Brooklyn. Welcome to Independent Sources, I'm Gary Piapier. And I'm Jano Raveenka. Many Eastern European grandmothers have told their naughty grandchildren that if they're bad, the gypsies will come and take them away. There's just one of the common stories that have made this group of people a sort of boogie man in popular culture.

Gypsies are Roma as they're officially called, live in large numbers and Eastern Europe, but trace their roots to the Indian subcontinent. Many of them have immigrated to the U.S. and even here continue to deal with the negative stereotypes associated with their culture. Tonight I'll speak with Judd Nirenberg of the American Council for Romani Equality and filmmaker George Eli about how the Roma community is coping here in the United States. Thank you both for being in studio with us today. Before we start, I'd like you both to watch this clip. We went to the street and asked New Yorkers what gypsies are. Gypsies are like nomads who sell things, or gypsies, or can't answer their personal. Ladies of the night, like, you know, gypsies are people that relocate quite frequently, from what I understand. Any gypsies in New York? Yes. We do have gypsies here in New York. I've not met one.

I've never seen one, so I don't know. People have come from the part of Europe that I know nothing about, really. I guess it's an ethnic race. What are gypsies? Oh, I watch that show. I do. A group of people originating in India, nomadic group of people, and they were persecuted a lot in their host countries. Well, we've heard of eustereotypes, Judd. What are gypsies? I could give two answers. I'd start by saying who or Roma, and then go back to the question, who or what are gypsies? Roma are an ethnic group with a lot of subdivisions. Roma have their own language and their own. I would prefer to say cultures and not culture because there really are a lot of sub-communities, along the Roma. Roma are today the largest ethnic minority group in the European Union, but also meeting in Europe as a whole, including the non-members.

Roma are people who, in many European countries, are suffering from a wide range of discrimination issues, water gypsies. Well, the word gypsy has a lot of connotations, some positive, and some negative, but all of them are stereotypes, and I think that's why many Roma in Europe and a few in the US today would prefer not to use the word gypsy and just to be clear about being an ethnic group and not some age-old set of assumptions. George, is the word gypsy offensive to you? It's starting to be with something we have to, I believe, in my opinion we have to live with right now, because so many people, like your clip just shown, doesn't know what a gypsy is, and I'm surprised you didn't take it to Broadway because there's gypsies that they say that the actors are gypsies because the word gypsy carries a more lifestyle rather than an ethnic group. What we are is Roma, and like Judge said, it carries everything, any race does accept the land right now.

We share a language, we share a DNA, and we share a culture that's pretty much universal. They are, depending on where in the world you are, the culture might change a bit, depending on the territory, but we are very much a group, an ethnic group, a race, just put out a land right now. But the word gypsy was named by us, we were named gypsies, we are Roma. Judd, since you worked in Europe, can you tell us whether or not the Roma people are one of the most discriminated against minorities in that region? I would say so, and also most European organizations would say so, and have Roma today in the post-communist European countries suffer from, in many of the countries, a segregated educational system. In most cases, discriminatory housing practices, discrimination on the labor market, and

in the last few years, an increase in racially motivated violence sort of across the board. Roma are in many of the eastern European countries, the largest, if not really, the only visible ethnic minority. The only ethnic group that you can sort of spot from Ross the street and know what their background is. We have another club that I'd like you both to watch, and it features a young woman who grew up in Eastern Europe, and for 20 years, hid her ethnic identity, until coming to the United States, where she was able to acknowledge it and embrace it. I found a way to keep that part of myself being a gypsy away from who I was. I always wanted to be long and be like the others, and be, you know, have friends and do things together.

And I managed doing that, but with a very high cost, denying a very important part of why I was. I really did not have gypsy friends. My dad never came around school, my mom has a white skin, so it was easier to hide my ethnicity. The biggest problem in my family was shame, was the shame associated with our ethnicity. You know, my grandfather used to tell me all the time, have you ever seen a gypsy who is a teacher, or a priest, or you know, all these things that shows that you're part of society. And he was happy with his life, he was doing a great job, he did a great job with being a blacksmith. But he always, you know, wonder what he's like to be a priest, so my, the problem with my family was of a statues and shame, rather than other things, and so yeah, my family tried the best to dissociate themselves from the stereotypes and the stereotypical way

of, you know, living a gypsy life. Gypsy is a very powerful word, it is not offensive to me. But that's because I went through a long journey of reclaiming the word and giving a word another, another meaning. And for me, it is an empowering word. I like to use it, I really don't have any problem with it, but it was a long journey to get here. I really found the beauty in it, and as I said, it's very empowering, it makes me want to respect society at the same time, refuse absurd conventions. It makes me want to do my job and do my, you know, research and be a good student, then at the same time express myself in a more artistic way.

And you know, I love gypsy music, I love ballet, I do ballet, I love combining both of them. And it's just beautiful, it's charming, it's exciting, I really, really love it. This young lady is in the United States and she's very excited about accepting her ethnic identity. Why do you tell her what she should expect here as a Roma girl living in the United States? Well, she's very pretty, so she'll be accepted right away in the community. No, to expect, we're, you know, we're home off first and American second. Just like a lot of the ethnic groups that came to America, they keep that we're very rich in culture, and we like to keep that. And I was, I thought it was interesting which she said of how a lot of shame comes with the culture, and she didn't want to say she's a whole knee or gypsy as she put it.

The problem that a lot of American home have is the inner oppression. They also feel ashamed to outsiders of who they are, so they often hide themselves. In the United States, it's easier to say, you know, I'm Greek or Italian or Indian or whatever, and most Roma here in America, and in New York do that. Because of the stigma that carries the name with gypsy or Roma. If you tell somebody, if you know your, you're a Roman New York, they won't understand. They won't understand. They'll think you're a Romanian or from Rome, it just won't get you nowhere. So you have to say gypsy, if you really want to communicate to someone what you are. You had a similar path, a journey to understand your ethnic identity, and you made a film about it, searching for the fourth nail. Can you tell us more about working on this film and the personal journey that you had? Of course. Growing up in the New York area as a home, a chavo, which means young gypsy boy, we've great.

You know, you're very nomadic, you don't have to go to school, the jobs are very in printorship, and you're very family-oriented. And this is a wonderful way to live, because there's always somebody around, there's always support, we love each other, and we support each other. But then when my children were born, I wanted opportunities for them, and I know of being a home, it's difficult. So this is when I picked up my camera and started finding out, you know, why do we do the things we do? Why do we carry this stigma? And that's where the film was born, searching for the fourth nail. And it showed me that we do come, we did have a land, we came from India, and we wound up in Europe, 800 years ago, and flourished there. Some people say that there was 500 years of slavery, a lot of people say that's not true. But when you do the research, there was evidence of slavery amongst my people. A big focus in your film is the idea of schooling in your community and how traditionally Roma kids don't go to school, you didn't go to school yourself, but at the end of the

film, not to spoil too much of it, tell us more about that and how it impacted the way you raised your children. Well, when I started doing the research of why I didn't go to school, you know, a lot of my family told me, Vianora, that it's not to mix without side the culture, so you don't fall in love, so you don't. And then through research, I found out that in Eastern Europe, Europe, it was illegal to educate a Roma child. It was not something you didn't do. They were in the peasantry work. So they did not need it. So because we didn't read and write, the suppression, lead it into tradition, which affected me. So now I had to ask myself, okay, this was oppression, this was in tradition, do I pass this oppression on to my children? And the answer was no, of course not. Because we are in the United States, which I feel is the greatest country in the world, and it's a big melting pot, and Judd was educated, and he embraces both things, and that's what my sons will do.

Fortunately, I didn't go through out school all through, I educated myself, but my sons did. And I refuse to believe that an precious law should become tradition. Judd, briefly if you could tell us the issues, the biggest issues that the community here is facing. Is there discrimination? I've read articles in which the Roma people were saying that there's sort of discrimination coming from law enforcement. Absolutely. In some states, there's more evidence of it than in others, but Roma often find that when they interact with law enforcement or with court system, all an lawyer has to do is say these people are just using that's taken as evidence of some kind of criminal intent. And it totally does not seem that Roma can get treated the same as everyone else in the legal system here. The other issues that the small number of Roma-Americans who are activists raise is that when they expect to see information about their own culture or history, they don't see

it. Roma were victims of the Holocaust. When we go to a Holocaust museum or a Holocaust exhibit, Roma are generally not mentioned or barely mentioned. The whole history of a people has been reduced to a couple outsiders' images. And for Roma-Americans, you want their kids to understand where they come from. That could be very frustrating. Unfortunately, we do have to wrap the discussion here. It's a very rich conversation. And I really thank you both for coming in studio and talking with us. And we will make sure to explore this in future episodes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for watching. Thanks, Vianora.

Here's a look at some headlines from the ethnic and community media. The Amsterdam News reports on the so-called forgotten neighborhoods of Corne Island, Red Hook, and Far Rockaway in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy. The paper notes that although the more affluent affected neighborhoods of Brissy Point, parts of Staten Island and the Jersey Shore were highly publicized and received assistance, it took days a lot of media attention and residents' hard work for poor, neglected areas to get help. Polish-American immigration lawyers are advising undocumented immigrants to wait for immigration reform, as they see a bigger chance of it being passed during President Obama's second term. Juan Southampton lawyer Isabella Cropididzka says the president will be more inclined to fulfill his promises in his second term, because there is less pressure on him. News India Times reports on the community's failure to get an Indian American from the Tri-State area elected to Congress despite the community's significant population in

the area. The report says that it will take a combination of a district favor in the candidate's political party, as well as experience and local participation to get a representative at a national level. Questions are being raised about the leadership of Latino elected officials in Queens. Queens Latino reports that many in the community are unsatisfied and complained that their officials can't bring people together. The publication says Latino residents in Queens are demanding solutions to problems like affordable housing and a school overcrowding. So, experts say the problem with the Latino leadership in the borough lies in the fact that politicians see their jobs as a career, not a public service, and often get elected without support from local community organizations. And finally, a story about a bit of good coming from something bad. Many laborers from Queens and Long Island, who haven't worked in weeks, are getting jobs thanks to Superstorm Sandy.

The general appearance of reports that they clean up in the hurricane's aftermath is requiring up to 50 men per day to work in Queens and Long Island. Some of the day laborers interviewed are happy for the job opportunities, saying they are getting paid up to $60 an hour to cut trees and clean flooded areas like basements. Those were just if you have lines from the ethnic and community media back to Gary and Villanora in the studio. Thanks, Marlene. It isn't among African-Americans, it's an arise. So much so that there are several organizations spreading up to help these non-believers feel a sense of community. Non-belief in the African-American community is a particularly intriguing phenomenon because a few forums survey found that nearly 88% of blacks believe in God. Abby E. Schullers spoke to Mendista Thomas and Ayanna Watson, two women who run atheist organizations in Atlanta and New York respectively, spoke about the difficulty of being a black non-believer and how they are trying to have a positive impact on their communities.

Ayanna, can you describe your journey to becoming an atheist? Sure. Let's see. I wasn't raising a religious family. My parents were very big on education. So my first real exposure to Christianity wasn't until I was about nine years old when I went to Bible camp. I was very far behind a lot of the other children because they had been going to Sunday school and church regularly and I was kind of just coming into it. So I stayed really hard, became got my little certificate to be a Christian. And from there, I was more or less, I guess I identified myself as a Christian until high school. At that point, I became a deist. I believed in something out there, but I didn't believe in the Bible or anything like that. And then fast forward to college, I took philosophy and that was it. I basically put all my beliefs on the table and I determined that there wasn't enough

evidence to support at least a God or any of the guys that I've learned about. Okay. Lisa, hello. Yes, how are you? Great. And the question I have for you first is, you know, black people are typically seen as very religious and very much into God. How does that play a role into the surge in the number of black atheists that are coming out? Well, like Ayana's experience is that more now are becoming more determined and they're starting to now become more courageous in expressing that they've had questions about these beliefs for a very long time or they've come across information that they found contradicts what they are contradicted, what they believe. And, um, and unfortunately that the whole tradition of blacks believing is just not standing much anymore.

Is that why, why should we just have to believe just because it's been a tradition? Okay, and you are the leader of black non-believers in Atlanta. Yes. How many members do you have and what kind of outreach do you do in the community there? Well, right now we are still building we're about two years old now and we have online about almost 500 members. We have about a good 15 to 20 people that attend our events in person. The type of outreach that we offer at this time is support for other non-believers in the community. We help over, we help them overcome any religious beliefs or and also help to deal with any questions that they've had. And in the future we are looking to reach out more into and work with more community organizers as far as helping people financially help, health-wise and physical and mental health.

Ayana, you recently started an organization, but what has gone into that? Well, I started black atheists of America in 2010 and I hope to improve education in a black community through my organization. We have currently one program right now called Science Cube where we donate supplies to schools in low-income areas or underserved areas and we're working right now on developing or creating, I guess, a after-school program for low-income children as well so that A's week and focus on improving critical thinking skills and then as a typical after-school program we can help them with their homework and stuff like that. How do people usually react to you when you say you're not a believer of God? It depends on the individual. If they're an atheist, it's wonderful for them or for both of us, I guess, but shocking to say at least. If it's a believer, it's still shocking but it's, you know, what happened? Why do you hate God?

It had to be some horrific event to get me there, which is completely a contour. It's education, reading the Bible, covered in horror, not just the parts that people like to refer you to and really studying or living beyond Christianity. Christianity has such a strong hold on the black community that it's hard for people to question it. It's involved in so many different areas of our, I guess, of our social events. I mean, you're going to, I went to a event recently for Black Entrepreneur Women and I mean, every other word was God, God, God, God, God. And very little on the actual service or product that they were offering. But, you know, I mean, that's the nature of the black community. Do you feel that sentiment ever hinders your work as an atheist? Because it's hinder my, to a certain extent, I mean, within Black Atheists or America not so much within my personal life as an attorney it could, but it just depends, I guess.

What about you, Mandy, sir? I agree that it does depend on the individual. I find that when I, when I said I am atheist or with, with believers, for example, they may have certain questions about what we do believe in, how long have you been an atheist? What was the catalyst? And similar questions to what I ought to say, they think they may, we may be angry or with, with God and such. So I, I tend to, again, I agree that it is subjective or it, it just depends. Hey, so what do you believe in? What is a Black Atheist or what is an Atheist? An Atheist is just an individual who does not subscribe to believe in any God's, deities, supernatural, or supernatural beings, that is the basic definition of an Atheist. So what are the misconceptions, would you say, are Atheists?

We're devil worshipers, that's the favorite. Let's see. We have babies. Yeah, we, yeah, I heard that a couple of times. What's so ever? That's so. Yeah, that's the common one. As far as, you know, you're so-called moral barometer as was coined by a wonderful Steve Harvey. Let's see, that's the biggest one, actually, the moral barometer, like how do you, how do you, you know, you can just do whatever you want. And like, no, I don't want to, you know, go out and call his harm to people. It's not because, it was never because of believing in any God, even when I was a believer. It was always because I was raised a certain way and my parents instilled certain values in me. So it was never because of some supreme being. That's also, in my opinion, I find it offensive that people believe that, you know, you have to have a higher being to not want to call his good, right?

Right. So I think, I don't know, do you have any other ones? Not as far as the misconceptions about us, but I would say to answer the question of what we do believe in, we have different. We all are outside of not believing in God. We subscribe to different philosophies on life. I tend to take stock in other human beings as well as beings that I've known to have existed many, there are many black heroes and many black leaders and in the community that have done great work. So do atheists have a specific code of ethics or is this just a personal thing? We don't have a code of ethics. We have, there's humanism that has a code of ethics, which is, most humanists are atheists. Very few of them are theists, but there are some theists that identify as humanists,

which is the idea of putting humans first. So you do whatever you can to, I guess, eliminate poverty and things like that, just to make the human race a better rate overall race, as far as atheists, and that's one of the issues of trying to organize among atheists, because we, our views and values and, and they're so diverse, so vast and wide and, you know, that can be, that can be taxing and challenging. Right. Wow. Well, we have to end the conversation there unfortunately, Ayana and Mandisa, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thanks. Stay tuned. When we come back, celebrating the Day of the Dead. The average text takes your eyes off the road for nearly five seconds. Stop the texts, stop the wrecks. And finally from us tonight, tradition combined with art recently went to Latino artists, put up an installation in Sunset Park Brooklyn to serve as an altar for the Mexican

community celebration of the Day of the Dead. A few dozen members of the community turn out for the event. We take in a few scenes from that night. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh! Benjamin and I are both visual artists and we wanted to collaborate together on both of our styles and create something that was going to be not only representing something cultural but something artistic, something that people kind of just come in and appreciate your

work and celebrate our ancestors. This day is a day where many people from all around the world, not just many gunnels or Latin Americans, take a moment to meditate on people that they've lost and to honor those family members or friends for what they've done for us to be here, all the work and all their sacrifice. It's a day to really celebrate those dead ones and to enjoy their life as if they're still here with us, you know which they are. That's not sure this week. Thanks for staying tuned, till next time be in the pen and mind it.