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The following program is made possible by a grant from Pepsi. Photography The technique of recording the image of a certain area at a certain moment in time. The first photographic negative produced by a camera is believed to have been made by the French chemist Joseph M. Kneeps around 1816. Kneeps would have been delighted to know that Flip Shoki took this art form and used it as a social tool for justice. In the 1950s, the Black Press had a hard time photographing stories in the South.
Shoki tells of the early days of working for John H. Johnson of Ebony Magazine. I had been doing a lot of work for Ebony in the South. Primarily because Ebony photographers were harassed when they came down. Now they weren't even doing stories. At all, they were doing baseball, spring training, successful black businessmen. Even then there were successful black businessmen in the South. There were other feature stories, but John H. Johnson found he was the young man. Our camera crew was large and it was almost as bad as a video. When they got out of the car with this equipment, they were arrested for stealing it. They were just harassment. They didn't beat him up or at least stuck him in jail and they had to call Shikago.
Shikago has to pay a bail. It just got to be too much money. I mean, John H. Johnson was tight. You know, he was trying to run a magazine and he's a great man. I mean, what he did and was able to do was a miracle because nobody had nothing money like that. He had to go out and find it. So I had done a little work in Minnesota when I was in college and he had my phone. I mean, he called me up. He knows that he called everybody. I think he lived at that. Every time I called in, it was a building in Shikago. Every time I called in, he'd answer the phone. And he'd know the story I was on and everything. And he was really hands on. After the success of the Montgomery bus boycott, the late 50s brought about a recognition of Dr. King's non-violent movement to the peaceful shores of Miami Beach. Johnson briefed Shoki on the young civil rights leader. Mr. Johnson called me one day and he says tomorrow night there's going to be a rally in the Miami for Dr. King.
He had just won the bus boycott and had just moved back to Atlanta and started SCLC. And he had to tell me all that because I had read that in the press. I didn't know that Dr. King was back in Atlanta. And I was very young. It was in 1958 on assignment for Ebene magazine that flipped Shoki first met Martin Luther King, Jr. in downtown Miami. Dr. King gives a lecture. I mean, it wasn't a sermon about what happened in Montgomery and that he was forming this organization. And they were going to try to use the same non-violent marching procedures. And he talked about Gandhi, and he talked about Jesus. And the non-violence works and violence doesn't work. But I was already pretty convinced of that.
Shoki conveys to King that the movement should be photographed for the people. He said, you're a photographer. Why is it more of what we're doing? They had already begun to march in Albany at that time. Why is it more of a photograph? And I said, the biggest problem is that you guys keep things so secret until you do it. That a photographer has to be there before is something happens. A writer can come in, though they want to be there before, but they can ask witnesses. They can do a good story for their paper. If a doctor is dead unless he's there, you know, you can't ask people and make pictures on it. I mean, you can, but it can't happen in video. But even the video would much rather be there when something is happening. And he hadn't thought about it that way. So I said, you know, you know what's going on? So I said, why don't you try me? You first get a lens to try it. I can be trusted.
So he gave me his home telephone. And I gave him mine. And he calls sometimes, but also YT Walker calls sometimes. And then Andy later, you know, he didn't always call. So I'm done karate call. But they were telling me not just about SCLC, but NAACP and whatever was being done in the South by any group. And one of the first major things he told me was James Meredith, trying to integrate the university. Right up until the end, he would call me. He called me all about the Memphis garbage truck, but I couldn't get it. I couldn't get anybody interested in that. Shokey was very impressed. This is all Dr. King. Believe me, from the time I met him, I felt this is the greatest man I'm ever going to meet in my life. And I met a lot of other famous people. At what point did you realize that? That night, that night and that house, yep. The Civil War for Freedom had ended 90 years ago. But the cities of the South would see new battlefields
with bloodshed on a crusade for equality. The telegraph was replaced by the television. Harper's Weekly was replaced by Life magazine. And Matthew Brady was replaced by Flip Shokey. As a Life magazine photographer, Shokey was in a privileged clothe that had its rewards. I was doing a lot of other stories, besides racial stories. But I'd always go to church there. And for two years, I loved listening to sermons. The other was that he always invited me home and created the world's greatest Sun Fried Chicken. I loved Black Pan, Southern Fried Chicken. So did he. I mean, that's why he and I got along so good together. But anyway, I said to him, you know, after two or three times in the house, I said, you know, I really would like to photograph you when you're speaking or real speaking. And he said, Daddy King doesn't like anything photographed during a service.
You know, he said that he's real tough with weddings, too. He just wouldn't, you know, you're praying to God, you're in a church service and you interrupt things. And I said, but you see how I work. I work a little camera. I won't make a mess. It'll be the same lens. You know, by the natural light that I'll push to film. So Daddy King was always very nice. And if his son said he, I could be trusted. He believed his son. So in the Baptist, most Baptist churches, the Deacon sit in that front row. So while I wanted to photograph him from a 45 degree angle, so I asked, you know, if I could sit with the Deacon, or the Deacon, he said, Sure, that's funny. I'm thinking more. So I was sitting, you know, halfway down. It's the same aisle. It's the front aisle where I took that picture. And, but of course, the service went on before he did the sermon. And I have a lousy saying voice. But I love the thing, but it's awful. I'm kind of tone, you know, kind of goes around like that, without going up and down.
So I love it when a lot of people sing. Because I can sing forth, and nobody hears me really, you know. So the first two hymns, you know, the Deacon's holding the hymnal, and I was singing along, really enjoying myself, you know. And after the second hymn, a daddy came, you know what, he stayed to stop and talk to the congregation. He said, I want you to know that they're the photographer, and they're the footstroke, even life magazine. And he's sitting down in the front row, and he's going to photograph my son, giving the sermon. And he said, I want you to know that he's participating in this service better than most of you out there. And everybody just broke down in laughter. And from then on, every person, you know, a congregation, remember. They treated me like God. I mean, there was so nice. You know, come to our house, and I couldn't do any wrong. And then when they saw the pictures, because I did get a lot of, I had the only pictures like that.
Shoke his camera captured, the best of mankind's ideas, from the space program, to an Olympic champion, getting a punch from Jim Crow. You know, I did the first story at Fritzport SoulStraight on Cash's Play. And he was living in a black motel and downtown Miami. And he didn't have much money then. I mean, you know, he was living on what train and his, the group of people in Kentucky that was backing me, you know, at that time. So I said, you know, you need some new shirts. He said, I know I do. And I had an expense account. And you know, the Sports SoulStraight was like, life, they were pretty, you know, as long as you didn't go crazy. So I said, let's go shopping. So I took him to Burden Island, which is a big chain in Florida now, it's owned by Federated Stories. And downtown Miami. And they, he looked at a couple, I have pictures. They looked at a couple of shirts. Then, uh, Salesforce comes over and says, you're like, so he said, yeah,
but I need to try them on, because I got a broad shoulder. He can't try shirts on. Everything he wanted to buy, he can't try on shoes. He can't try it on. Even with a pad or whatever. And I call the manager and I told him, the Sports SoulStraight, he said, you didn't care. He said that we don't serve black people unless they buy, you know, a wrapped up, they can't touch anything. I mean, you know, and I'm sure you run through this. I, a, a, but boy. And, you know, Cassius, well, I'm a didn't get angry. I, I was very angry. And he said, kind of, let's just go to a good store in the black section. We did what we did. You know, I have the pictures of that too. But see, most Americans didn't realize that I still feel most Americans are decent people. Ironically, the most memorable speech Dr. King gave, the press thought that a riot would take place in the nation's capital. I would directly in team of five photographer and we had split up by areas. And because I,
a long time ago, when you're in charge of something, if you put yourself in the best area, all the rest of you guys are going to be pissed off. Okay. I mean, I won't sit there, I'm upset. So I put myself at the Washington Monument because that's where the parade started, and all that stuff. So I fully got a lot of stuff there. And then, you know, I was getting towards the end of the day, and I wanted to hear that King speak. So I went down to the steps. By then, the steps, you've even seen the pictures. There was a lot of empty places and the steps. A lot of people left. You know, well, they had a lot of speeches, and you know, they didn't realize he was going to, you know, give the best. I knew because I heard him, and you're going to Detroit. I have a record of it at the house. And he, very gordy recorded the speech he gave in Detroit, and then March was like six months before the March of Washington. And he used a lot of the I have a dream speech in there. Because, you know, black preachers build on their speeches and sermons, and they see the reaction,
and they see what they're doing, and then they piece it all together. And you end up with a masterpiece, and that was what happened at the March of Washington. But he had already done this. I tried to get life to understand that, and they said there's going to be a riot. Again, I didn't work for life in that. Black stuff put together a team of five photographers, and UAW paid for it, because Walter Luther, you know, it was very big on helping black cars, but also Dr. King. Life wanted all of us to, most of us to be with the military groups that were already the coming, because they all thought that there was ever be a big race riot. And I said, I'm not going to sit there with them. It's nothing's going to happen. They said, OK, well, then don't work for us, which I didn't. I mean, on that assignment, we had good relationship. So black stuff puts this thing together, and so I walked down, and the photographer who was in charge of the steps, you know, the speeches, said, you know, why you here, he was a friend. You didn't say that. I mean, I said, I just want to hear him.
I said, I'm not a dating preacher. I just want to hear him speak. He said, that's not been all day listening to these speeches. It's not going to be any different. I said, yes, it is. He said, look, you're already here. I'm tired. I want to go home. You shoot it. And I said, fine. The next day, boy, I'd take it. He was a good friend. He said, boy, did I blow that one? Because he had no pictures. And I had all the pictures of the Irish people. Because of his special relationship with the King family, Shoki photographed the moment when they were told that Dr. King would receive the Nobel Peace Prize. I had the only pictures of him at home, you know, candid, natural, because they used to go to the house lot. And he, that's when he told me he got their Nobel Peace Prize. Even Monada didn't take those kind of pictures in the home. Oh, I mean, he did too many posed pictures. And well, you don't need to do that when you get with the still camera.
OK. And that day, he just said, well, I'd never photographed him privately. Because I like to talk with him for one thing. And he liked to relax and study. So did I. And I never took pictures. One time, I took a few black and white pictures. But the rest of the time, I never took my cameras in. And that's when he told me to bring the cameras in, because he wanted... He heard about the Nobel Peace Prize. And he said, maybe it's a good time to record the family. See, I had talked to him a lot about the importance of documenting things. Yes, photographically. It is hard to believe today, but only one magazine covered Dr. King receiving the Nobel Peace Prize. Even though he was the youngest recipient of any magazine. Shoki says Dr. King looked at the heart of a person, not the color of their skin.
I came in with Dr. King. See, he called me that night, and said he was going to my government, and I went along with him on that. And I went in that house where James Farmer jumped up and said, when I could have any white men in this meeting. And it was one of the greatest moments in my life with Dr. King. He said, this man's name is Shoki. He's my life magazine. I've known him a lot longer than I've known you, and I know I can trust him. If I say not to say one word about what he hears, he won't do it. And if he won't take pictures of any, you get really excited. I get him this time. Arguing real strong. And Farmer said, no, no, we can't have a white man listening to this. And Dr. King said, what is this all about? I mean, he said, we're fighting segregation, and you're trying to segregate. And then he said, I don't care what color he is. I don't care if he's pink with purple polka dots.
Sometimes I always forget what he said. Pink with purple polka dots or purple with pink polka dots. But I always remember that pink and purple polka dots. It was so funny. And he said, I'm leaving if he doesn't stay. And I jerked all the way behind him and I say, oh, come on, you know, let's go. This is a big thing. All the leaders were there. From NAACP, Urban League. The snake was there. Everybody was there. And he said, no, this is too important. And with the power of his will, they all back down. By then, most of them were back in Farmer. And when King said, I'm leaving. And I think you can't do it over this. And he said, it is a principle. And he was willing to screw up this meeting because they were trying to say, a white man who he was friends with and trusted and said he trusted. So I mean, that proved to me. The man just didn't see color. He just didn't. Even in a time of bereavement,
he had access to the King family, like no other photographer. I was in New York and the Memphis thing happened. I heard about it on the evening news. And I called life right away and said, you know, I wanted to assignment on this. And they said, listen, it happened six hours ago. We already got eight teams down there. Eight teams. Yeah. And Memphis and Atlanta, and then trying to figure out who killed them. They didn't know Ray at that point. And I said, well, I can get pictures, you know, you all can't get. And it was a picture editor. And I wasn't on the top, you know, the pyramid. I was in the middle somewhere. And he said, if it's not pushing, you know, we don't need you. So I called Karina, because I had a private number. And if you'd be glad. And she would go on the phone, and I said, where are you? And I said, I'm in New York.
And she said, you weren't in Memphis? I said, no, I wasn't in Memphis. Nobody gave me assignment. So she said, get on the plane and get down here, and come in the house, because mine always said that we should document everything. That's the only way the people know. And she knew I did all the Mrs. Airbus pictures that way. Because Mrs. Airbus had let me in the house the same way. So I get down in the house and go, you know, all my buddies just came in and say, if I'd been there really, you didn't there. And I'm going to go, because let me write in. And I didn't call light. This is late at night. And in the same picture, a system picture of it. And he was harried. And he said, I told you, shut up. Now stop calling us. You know, we don't need you. And I said, well, if you don't need me, somebody else will. Because I'm inside the king home, and nobody else is. And of course, the tone changed instantly. And they said to me, you're on, you know. And well, the first night, she was in the bedroom. And we just made pictures of a doctor.
She was perfectly relaxed with me being around. You see? And the kids would come in and talk to her. And she was in shock for God's sake here. So you photographed Mrs. King? Well, but people talking to her, Aaron Atty came. Okay. And gave a lot of consolation. He was a wonderful man. And I don't want to give a book, because there's other comments. They got all the F-3 strokes. But he was, that came towards his friend. So Robert Kennedy and Ethel. They came the next day of the third day. Okay. But that night, the first night, it was Aaron Atty and Jesse came. I remember Jesse was there. And I have a look at the picture to see who else was there. What about Bill Cosby and Robert? No, they came in either next. I think the next day, I'm pretty sure. She went to Memphis, and I didn't accompany her. You know, because she wanted me to stay in the house because the kids were relaxed with me. And that's when Cosby and Colt came in, and they played with the kids,
and they had a lot of pictures of... Yes, you see. This is them playing. Harry Belifante was more than a follower of Dr. King. He was a good friend. Very good friend. And it was kind of a private friendship. Because Harry was tied to his career. And making quite a bit of money. And what I admire about Belifante so much is you read recently about some millionaires who have given tons of money and don't say they have. Harry has helped so many people financially. And not just black people. He helps black people too. And I imagine the majority are in the acting field. He got owned by a friendship with King, and he got worried because King didn't pay attention to money. He just didn't. He didn't save anything. Well, you know, he insisted everything he got.
They lived. He didn't pay any rent. He lived on the salary of, you know, a system pastor of Ebenezer. Because all the book money, the books, I mean, the novel piece by all of them into SCLC. So Harry was worried about the assault children as you got a college. So unbeknownst to Dr. King, and this all came out of Dr. King's eye. He had put into a trust fund enough money for all four to go to college. And that only came out because Dr. King died. He then had to tell Carrera because she was worried about, you know, where we had the money to send these kids to college. He just, you know, he's a sweetheart. The legend of Dr. King's non-violent movement has become a primary component in world peace. The same thing happened in East Berlin,
and that's what brought the wall down. It was Reagan. I went there and physically saw Dr. King's books translated into German, and they had translated the marching songs, you know. We shall all become especially. And here you have a few thousands of East Germans marching in East Berlin, singing these songs. I mean, I get goosebumps talking about it, but you can imagine what it was like there. And then Chuckles and Rocky, and Poland did the same thing. They had translated those books into Czech and Polish, and the songs, and they were using his methods right out of the books. And the press generally did not report that. What really made me angry was they didn't run the songs. I mean, you know, when they showed the marchers, they showed the marchers, but they didn't show them when they were singing the songs. And any American hearing that, you know, it was in Germany. You know, we shall all become as a tune to it.
Yes. And that was three years ago. Well, no, no, six years ago. 1989, the time was two-fifth, and maybe I could like spend a lot of time in that in Germany, and Poland was that time when everything was collapsing. But now they're doing it, and they're very same thing. They're people of all ages getting out in the street. And what King proved is that the baddest oldies are, they won't tend to machine gun women and children. And even South Africa, they started doing that towards the end. And that's what Gandhi, you know, discovered that, you know, had a hundred and eighty-seven were killed in that first march he had. And then the soldier just started saying, we're not going to shoot these people, because they're not hitting us back. And that's what King's whole thing was. That it's awful to march that way, and maybe you're going to get hurt, but you're going to get hurt too, do you, and you know what I mean? What's the difference? If you're a terrorist,
you're probably being hurt or shot by somebody else as a marcher. But if you don't get back, you get the sympathy of everybody watching. Like a photograph, the civil rights movement had negative and positive images. This photojournalist, Flip Shoki, exposed the world by freezing time. On the eleven thousand images, he took of the civil rights struggle. Thank you, Flip. He believed very firmly in God, but he had still reason that pying the sky is great, but why can't we have pying the sky on Earth? We're always talking about that, you know, you work real hard, and you're going to be all up, and you're just going to have a great time in heaven. It's fine, but why not have a nice time in the North and a nice time in heaven? But that first night, I knew I had a great man, and he was yelling, you got to realize we're basically the same age. And I say today, I say every time I talk,
and I may not be around, because the way the stories are, it takes a while, but I'll bet you by 2020, when we look back, at the 20th century, then worldwide, he's going to be put down as the greatest philosopher of the 20th century. Because nobody know, when I talk to academics, they can't be in the philosopher or a more complex and complete philosophy or a human being who's going to get along with Dr. King Day. You know, the way you talk, it's hard for me to talk about this, because then I start getting weepy. I miss him. I miss him.
Title
Ebony Chronicles Presents Photographer Flip Schulke
Contributing Organization
OETA (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip/521-639k35n85k
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Description
Program Description
This program features an interview with Flip Schulke, a photographer who documented the Civil Rights Movement. Here Schulke describes working for Ebony Magazine, photographing Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. at a rally in Miami, FL in 1958. Additionally, Schulke captured images of the March on Washington in 1963, famous for King's "I Have a Dream" speech. Schulke became a close personal friend of Dr. King, and described his time with the King family during their time of bereavement following his death.
Date
1999-11-01
Asset type
Program
Rights
Copyright Oklahoma Educational Television Authority (OETA). Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/).
Media type
Moving Image
Duration
00:27:54
Embed Code
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Credits
AAPB Contributor Holdings
OETA - Oklahoma Educational Television Authority
Identifier: AR-3012/1 (OETA (Oklahoma Educational Television Authority))
Duration: 00:26:52
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Citations
Chicago: “Ebony Chronicles Presents Photographer Flip Schulke,” 1999-11-01, OETA, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 29, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-521-639k35n85k.
MLA: “Ebony Chronicles Presents Photographer Flip Schulke.” 1999-11-01. OETA, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 29, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-521-639k35n85k>.
APA: Ebony Chronicles Presents Photographer Flip Schulke. Boston, MA: OETA, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-521-639k35n85k