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it'sb on the morning of june twentythird and i said to him that there is cia involvement with the cia to tell usright now the reason for these questions apple has begun to appear in theallegations made him a legitimate area of inquiries to decide whether or notnot the white house or anyone connected with the white house or the crp tried to plantthe idea that the cia was involved and what extent of anycia or anyone in the cia tried to father that appear that's righthe talked ofbeing being suggested there might make the new top workers and waters as you verywell they undercover cia operations that aniston in essence what happenedup to this point that is correct it would be with one exception that i promise to be medicare iscia involvement you let them tell us so mr
dean and general motors are suggesting you know it was yeah and all my directorelmendorf noted that oneoutappears on page thirteen of years that theory thatdirector helms called idon't see the day i don't have it my note that at one point director helms called youand asked you not to interview active cia men are alive thereand downcast so that was in a telephone conversation senatorbaker i believe which occurred on june twenty eight i'm shirtlessyou know why are you in investigating these people arei didn't know the fiat director helms thatwe were going to interview either one of those men surveyed you know that you're going through i didn't at
the time he called me no sir i did not know but i've since learned that your agents wereabout to do that and that triggered home centers to support you well i am sayingthat your director helms call i accepted hisword and i immediately ordered the interviews jon katz well i'm going to be heldin abeyance you indicate what i'm waiting for is why i don'tnotice that you might mean there was a reason for and franklysuggestion that interview these two men sen gregg i don't know but i know that i alsohave a telephone note in november which indicates that director tom saidcall my number two man standing in line the number two man at that latedate that's assistant attorney generalbecause regarding interviewi don't know
you know who these two people are huge energiessense war i do not know who john as well isand i have since learned mr waggoner and i believe i'mcorrect in saying this because i learned from the newspapers i believethat he was general questions executives what's thegeneral question of executive assistant i don't those are you know whethereither of these names show up in conjunction with the watergate affair yes i've sincelearned that they were those names i believe i'm correct in saying this i know i'm correct in sayingit was regarded as well i believe i'm correct in saying it with regard towhether that those names were him one of the notebooks alittle pocket telephone at this type of notebooks that we uncovered and ibelieve that it was mr hans no but that would have to be subject toverification another positive custody of that material or else i would assume
the fbi does because those leads was sent out from the washington field officeyou require a director knows why he did not want tolive or casual interview most recognized and dealing with peoplefrom the cia i did not ask the questions along those linesaccept that what they told me on page forty nine of your statement andyou may have already covered this in earlier testimony you mentioned ms kathleen should nowa request by john damaging not be entertaining or that she beinterviewed in england you know who she is what her connection with the situationi believe it is only that you worked on the nsc staff and i havesince found out that the rescue now as mr youngsecretary of statewe're running out of time and we're
on page twenty i guess you come close to signing up her state ofmind about the cia situation when you say that you'reconcerned and just heard about the contradictory reporters at the counciland being from walter and the abrupt cancellationof a meeting scheduled with alice waters on june twentyeight nowto develop in the course of your investigationany further information there on any of these questions firstthat this was connected with the cia that is the watersituation or second that it was a lie and someone was trying touse the appearance and then the cia operation zeroedin the book on which the hangar deck or three
are any other reconciliation of those insurgent tacticwhether they ordered interviews following that meeting with federalwaters we determined that thesewere contributions political contributions this this was apolitical contribution chain rather than the cia money team but in any eventthat many other towns throughout though there was no cod and bobwalters that someone said yes there was or there might bebean said yes there was another might be leading to reconcile thosepamphlets was cancelled and that's a force that's as for lettinggo except one at a meeting with mrmr davis and myself certain meetingmr fail
for me a copy of thearticle andit has an interesting article which isjames hornerit's been a lot of tensionsidentify politically riskyfb isbased on whatwe have
and soi was quite like your attention is today to a character the end of thearticle on to your report on the last paragraph shortlyleinberger says the question then is who raps on theidea and this investigation the watergate days and thisrecord in this article and this is the first of a three part series on areporter sitting next succeeding install that thesuggestion is made in the normal course ofevents search warrants would have been sworn out and executed search the vehiclesand premises of the people involved in the water weresuggesting that someone stop that procedureand they've done that found in records residences
automobile electronic equipment and about eighteen thousand dollars in hundred dollarbills carbon copies of wiretap lot of the capital letter signed byjohn mitchel waterson or you have internal security division justiceto obtain informationyou suggested as well as he puts it see your personalitywanted to get search warrants but they wereturned down other number of other statements by most important as you knowi've been a witness before this committee out if those are those allegations are infact true they bear america very close scrutiny of this committeeagain at the beginning was there in fact the suppression of the actorsup old senior at get personal political to gainsearch warrant officer is the premises all the watergate defendants
as the fighting this morning senator baker that i thought mr mccourtas being very unfair the dedicated men andwomen of the federal bureau of investigation and on like that statement to you again somebecause those men and women would not toleratesuppression and furthermore i know ofno such suppression of any desires to get to sichuan and i wouldlike to read if i may please from an exhibit which isbefore this committee exhibit seventy six would like to reviewangry inch of some of the fbi and then themselvesobservations as many limitations on investigation that is the unanimousviewsection chief of the bills and supervisor charles a newsom and john
jay winik as well as the sec couple of the washington field officebut there were absolutely no limitations placed on the fbi's investigation ofcorruption this is the walking dead it was understood by our personnelinvolved in this investigation that was to the most thorough an exhaustiveinvestigation was always receding top priority and sufficient personnel assignedto be sure mr gage on destinationthroughout the name that developing violations of the interception of communications andconspiracies that investigation was directed toward identify new participant in thebody including identification of those who may have recruited subjects andthat's the operational participated in any act in thiscrowd why does it say senator baker that to thisquestion was raised again later on in the year and there isn't that human
before this committee an exhibit before this committee which i have presented to itthat the agents were not respected and pursuing any leverage whichthey wish to pursue with the one exception mr whedon my time'sexpired sticker but i can't resist the last final question on that level of yourstatement you speak of trying to gain assistance and identifying an individualadvancing mr cotham i mean if you ever find out that while yesindeed we get we are and imr libby who was under the alias at thattime of mr leonard we tied them together with the visit is as of julythird state with his story stands out i don't understand the significance of the years they're inus citizen that was a couple ofreally counting recall that i haven't done being in which i askedhim for some photographs this is the lawyers in the office and making it
sound likethrough her work for him to belate june and then the movie called president wasthatwhat was the significance to the fbi but the message andmoney well his significance to answer was that it waseven at that time in our thirties it was either at acia money chain are at a political money came in itit was important to us to try to track it down anddetermine what it was whether it was used tofinance the burglary and the funding of the watergateand in the course of the investigation as you arrive a
determination as to which of those two years that we were able to determine that it indeed itwas a political money changers we were calling anypolitical contributions and it really was this mexicanmoney one of the few pieces of hard evidencethat the fbi at that earlystage it was it wasn't i always recommend saying until junetwenty eight that we have the lead to mr liddyi believe that it was staged so that the mexican money was aconviction was enormously important to theinvestigation of the watergate who was the viola moneyteam that we had right at that point in time so farone point in time
yer and ten iowa to thefact that somebody might be trying to interfere with theinvestigation i think thati had perhaps a feeling along those linesor a feeling that there's somebody in the white house knows a lot more than we knowbeginning when my meeting with mr helms was canceled itwas a feeling then that maybe this is an activity on thepart of people are too some kind of bigon the political contribution aspects of the thing thatthese suspensions really began to generate along those linesrather solemn and i had been meeting with the job wasthis being mugged at the un's estimate the july thesixth inning i got a scrape
question has been asked and debatedas to what it was that you intended toconvey to the president of the united states on july thesixth borough could you tell uswhat it was that you intended to convey in that phonemessage certainly atthat timeand i was kindof president that i believe in that were really thatpeople in ways that were using the fbi and thecia to infuse the question of whetherpeople in between
overzealousneeded to protect the citywas the questionconvey the result was aninvestigation of mexican mine was concerned that there were those that were trying tobe the investigation us i don't think i didn't needthe mexican money came to the presidentwell then let'stry to understand be in the very specific as to exactly whatmessage to convey to us did you try to convey thefact that you know there were those individuals on his deathanyway investigation
what was going through my mind was eighty thousanddifferent attitude toward the agencies and they'll use of them wasas with manyothers in my mind cia money chamber ofpolitical money game but i felt that by their actions of the uses thatthey would be morally will mean to the presidentpolitical money mr vickers we reallyconduct interviews of theindividualsphone conversations with votersdid you suggest to the
personto the best of my recollectionstick in my mind of the words have alwaysbeen in my mind and the only other thing that it and i did say to the president wasthat i had just broken the clock mcgregor about this this morningand i asked him to talk with you about is the president and there was aslight pause and then the president said to me that you continue to conduct yourthird element and aggressive investigation didwe did do you raise the president the fact that you and quarterswere concerned that what was this a question from the president you know so this was a questionmaybe it was i didn't reallymind i got a feeling that i hadbeen unbeaten in fact that led paul mcgregor and i was
surprised that the president told me and i just blurted out and whenhe finished third congratulating me on identity i just blurted out to him mrpresident there's something that i have to speak the robotand the reason i've given the message of the waters and ifeel that their people and it's that time a mortally woundedby using the fbi cia to confuse mequestion of whether the ciadiscussion with himcia was not a ball busterfor the president as best as i can recollect they did not askme any question because if he had i would have suspected that he would ask me oh youmean i would've thought oh well no it's a rare war reviewstatement
nineteenseventy three on julysix nineteen seventy two i telephoned the acting director of the fbi openup a grave to congratulate him on a successful handling of the hijacking of a pacificsouthwest airlines when the previous day during theconversation mr gray disgust with me the progress of the watergateinvestigation and i asked him whether you talk withgeneral yesterday said that he hadand the gentle lather is that it showed him that the cia was not involvedin discussion mr gray suggesteda commander of watergate might retirei told the press ahead with his investigation are you characterizeher you set your description of this conversation alongside that general
allen's and you said that your state with their version of the conversationwith us will stick with your version the conversation set aside that versiongiven by the united states and that we just heard because this is my memory in my bestrecollection of it's that memory of that for a long long timeand the the only thing i was arrested and senator like her andtalking with gentle although some of july fifth telephone conversationwas a barrier and all this one of the no they had any interest inthem or not and i told him that i wasn'tarrested in anything else i wasn't interested in reading and two and threequarter page memorandum of the previous information furnished at the working level of thecia and the fbi i just wanted the answer to that questionone last question
what was the first time you realizeyou realize that you are those thingsitis and realize that i was in a situation where i wasgoing at the scramble to extricate myself was really evenmy people are twenty five hundred session with
you i think i'm more at the point where the point was really made with me on the evening of apriltwenty six in the meeting out in the attorney general's office when i have aconversation with the system why arethose relations peterson's stake relative to us evensaid that i'm scaredthe city does in the interpretation is coming forth from the white housewere not to resign when you've been kicked out that start to returnor strengthen those suspicions i don't know thati that i really thought of it that way i just thought of it as a very unfairlight and only actual situation was differenti move on the proportions ofthe fascination of the committee with grace receipt of those loan files and john
ehrlichman and jaunty and shown again by senator talmage investmentpublic television's coverage of the senate hearings will continue after a pause for a station identificationon average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service by the memberstations of pbs the public broadcasting servicefb thethe
popeand pike continues its coverage of hearings
by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities here againcorrespondent robert reich new senator challenge picked up the questioning known as we return to theair there's a longlist of being on june twenty first last yearmany pieces of who is responsible for the break caman orderly north in vaults thecia when the uk that theory of the committee for thereelection of great info i think that that was and sosenator tom waits and the theory that we heard that this was a political operation we didn't justthink it was the cia sir they'd do anything to facial maybe we're likeyes sir we interviewed my memory is correct sixty peoplethere liane we have a list of those interviewsand we have placed didn't have an exhibit that before the committee survive in
london his thoughts about the lobsterthisbe thepeak of the pieces back and so somewill begin search on june seventeenpolice and was one that was interviewed then i noticed some earlier ones here junenineteen mr rohde was interviewed on writing this bookcomplex it is to be there be an abuser are a couple thatwhy isthat as weknow it
was mr paulson no it was a given that we talk with i think justa lot of money seventeen we talked with himregarding xenophobia an investigation into just telephone friendly chat know sothat was that particular cause orgerman whether or not there's truthand to getback to the papers now that and that just beingdelivered to you didn't you think it was trains the topsecret papers then entered white house risesthey would tell youa supposedly non political organization but notlet them see the light of day because of political dynamitesen mcconnell that that say to you that at a time when i
receive those the answer to your question is no because i didnot have those kinds of suspicions you wouldn't think your office'sdirector fbi when an extension of the white house aspossiblethose patients itis iwaslookingat christmas
in theassassination they gota reasoned got authenticity in favor of the new berna good issue on the road backthree thousandand eightthe democrats who are mandated the documents willindeed all things that might throw a new light on the assassinationpresident and it ismr schmidt
youdo with that investigations in domestic maintenance to lunch off amoral and a break in a certain openness andwhat i didn't hear the president those suspicions that i hadas i testified earlier so they did and i reallyand sincerely believe the general reason i have been alarmstuitionhikes senatorclintonfollowing twosuccessive meetings that i had was i asked president willface was no except that on occasion he said
yes he did now one final questioni read one sentence from the president's statement and the discussion mrgray suggested a matter of what itmight lead to ha campbell united states in his state yourtestimony to members of his dayhe did notthank youso just to follow on that question and some of the collegein retrospect it occurs to all ofkinds of your suspicions that perhaps when a heightenedbut isn't it a fact that everybody in washingtonand i guess elsewhere in the country around about that time in
june voters break occurred thought that this was a crazyheadline seat that was done by some stupid fooland ended probably would've gotten what it was and that the general feeling around washingtonthat appeared to be in the report of thediscussions that we have within theinvestigation and even in my first conversation with the record also believe we cannow even in a conversation that iwas defeated saddam me a twenty gauge you you said that tome that we are at sixes and sevens which is about the mostis the ioc violationsyes we were growing and in those days we were looking we was atand there was plenty of activity there were more leads reallyand we get a lot of people were working literally around the clock security
what does watergate my art collection is that youknow anybody i've talked to during those periods simply dismiss that i'llhave that anybody ever higher authority could have done anything to do with this headline skisenatehearingsthat we still talk and we made these statements at the lunch table please please theluncheons at which would be the senior minna the fbi presidentthat they just believe these men were far too intelligent to have anypart of this kind of the sordid affair and this indeed wasasto my knowledgeso that was my own just want to hurt any
final question for a visa free soyou can do like you can show us i do recall when youhad your first meeting jumping on on thiswatergate matter you said you just the sofa we've talked about a couple of your course thecia for him and that somebody at the committee to reelectwas responsible as indeed it turned out the twobut you also mentioned a theory of bubblyjewelry store that's very unusual for ground aboutwhen and why did you think it might be you know sweeney ebi mean the replacements
and it just seemed to uswe wereaninvestigationit's beendid you did you have to determine in your investigation of the actualmechanics of the decision that was to leave the tablesaw no one of dollarsthis billjustice
department what did he tell you were not going tobe an investigation was norestrictions on it whatsoeveri'm terry grossbefore the committeeand a thorough investigationas the prosecutors in court isreally really that whatever information he hada substance on the investigation came through the mobjustice i believe in the criminal division side because he and i hadno cost of substance regarding this particularinvestigation there has been some question i'msure you know about whether it was being conducted an investigation is just the
volunteers on the present united states aresupporting it mr beanwordsfrom on a longer workouts in your many conversations with himduring his retirement what do you think his name was ibelieve it is conducting an investigation and i believe that he was going to thepresident because it's only lesson i believe that even as late asnovember he was looking into relationships said that it was strong shapeand i just believe that he was conducting an investigationi'm so sorryhe was conducting investigations of our show although it didn't
surprise me because i believe going to be conducting an investigationand ultimately proportionsas another fact thatyear in february currently dean contacted thecia asked them to retrieve their filesoriolesdidleno ever contact you were with her garden with those or withini'm assuming that particular file that is being referred tobecause this is it was delivered to the department ofjustice or the request the attorney general and the
assistant attorney general criminal division and to the best of my knowledge and we did nothave this fall and less some of the material wasdelivered at the working level from the director of security at the ciato the alexandria field office agents who wereliaison with the cia i know that from the newspaperaccounts which i read about that long after i left the fbi that their lives tobe some pictures a narrow forget who the individual is either underlibby standing in front of but the feelings are fuelingthe psychiatrist dr wilbur globally and iknow that i did not at any time see any such pictures and i don't know if anyone in thefbi ever saw any subjectyou don't know thosesongs my way
good morningyou're convincedthat the message being conveyed it was a message from presidentas it related to lose the house because wellmy answerthepresident gave them in order to give me those files no sir i testified that they werethat i believe them to be acting under colorado operation in their official capacityi had no reason not to believe that i was meeting roomsthat meeting was arraigned senator to the best of myinformation either and that eleven seventeen am hopeful corlette morningmr willie
sutton allegations and rumors of leakscoming from the fbi and the first week of that investigation or it wasarranged between my secretary and researcher at a concert hereand will is being held this meeting was held in mr eric owens office ofthe white house or so on june twenty eight he had no reason to besuspicious of it in the city none whatsoever and ifthe request we made was not in proper illegalon professional on an ascetic non butthen by july the sixth because of intervening activities you you've gotsuspicious i got suspicious when i saw the waters lean back inthat bad overstuffed chair of mine in my office and present time is deadand say itmention any more those kids kicked me around
that coupled with is the occupation in that meetingwith hisso you could see ityou're welcomethankyou thatwasn't in the unitedstatesand i was when the president called meand when i listened repeatedly asked them all or isit the president talked with him about this so i think that he and iwere i don't think we were
suspicionshumanrights then nightsenator i i was a pretty busy guy working eighteen to twenty hours of the unitthat i was in you know thinking about those two files all the time that's ibelieve that you believe that was to be in the tournament and trying to involvecia was doing so called corali certainly it then i have no other alternative butto believe that investigates wanted to quote doesn't want to either sixty seven you're beingmortally wounded this was i feltan talking with general motors that he was going to beasked to write me a letter saying that there wascia interest in ontario and oliver had i not interview
those two gentlemen that is the reason it was the spirit of afuture act and that's why subprime the mortally woundedus to try wasn't iapologized to men or do you believe that the folklorici believe that he was going to be directed by someoneeven specify thing i got was please hear thisand i drew from that time my own interpretation to the john being with whomi had been dealing in talking about the cia an eloquent who hadcaused me to cancel my meeting with mr thompson general world whethergender diversity mr dean was never interviewed becausequite frankly center and everyone investigation thought he was onassignment we're working with a moment practically on a daily basis even if it was
approximately one was that he felt that he was on your side we kept working with him andwhen the president did not respond in any way then when theconcerns that i have to retiresuspicionswendy's a suspect that there's thebebop all so when the jubilee in the midst of the marketingthe first indications senatorcertain was he was a monumental eventthat was monday march twenty six one two micethat came in with regard to an article thatappeared that we can and i believe that with the los angeles times concerningallegations that mr mccourt was making concerninganyway and last year in the league
this was a man in the league this guy's yet the iraqishave previously testified that comes a viperskills that various assistant directors if you willexactly it wasabout the ebola virus that's what hesays after the meeting mr wallace yes it wassort of the interview was this i don't know was it because it was conducted by theceo all this interview i personallysecond there's animportant enough for youand he's right
mikethere was an awful lot ofus my guest is reporteramenable when did you become a member of thejustice department i thinkthe seventies you know the december sevennineteen seventy eight i was sworn in decemberfourteen and then that time from nineteenseventy eight to a service is acting director of the fbiwhere you are can handle classified material verysick as acting director of the fbi where
you were to handle classified for those things things arenot stamped things secret topsecret confidential to any great extent that was tomanage some very very small portionjust becauseyouaskidon't know until nineteen seventy three at a lookat that invites all these would be if it was thatit has been concern myself so i
know well for the movie you knownations investigation divisionexperience as ageneral court martialthere's been alot of intelligencewhen these babies weregiven to fall as ultimate destructionwith your background in at a voter id do that you might've been called onto obstruct justice knows it did not occur to me at all that i
had no reason to believe that i was engaged in a sense that i do not believeso to date and i know that that the communities that isaw was certainly not on watergate evans when thepapers weredestroyed and the fbi used it than all of the cars were openingof the papersall because of a piece of the energy that was a loti think that i probably are atthe thought that the paper was destroyed but i can say as a factor that itwas i don't know it was that wasthe only remember new muchas i can the fbi will
to balance it in my desk intothe little things like that andtalking about classified throughno i did notjust the normalbible what is the sentimentmr ray and this morning and avanishing land trends and you responded thatyou have approximately sixty five meanswith respect to these see itand correct it's a common sentimenti mean he's
sometimes in conjunction withyouwe are going to bei mean with respect to the white housei don't know exactly how they were developed that i rathersuspect they stem from the fact when we first found out that wasemployed there we wanted to find out who employed him nowand go talk to that individual to find out what their procedures employed and whatwere his duties were youknow so i think itso this is it i am relying heavily
on my memory now and the best evidence of this would be at the three of the human cellgoing back to beingended how manytalented you say he's been called to tell you not topursue the planned interview with mrbarry oh and most of your gains june the twentysecond and july the sixthtolosa i would say perhaps a just a guess about a dozen times and that wasdiscussed and that request was made inour communitiesand how many times did mr helms tell you that therewas no cia involvementthat specific mandates to the june twenty second
conversation because my other conversations were directed to last aspecific question for example the conversation conversations i hadhim on twenty seven square asking specifically there'sno and he saidnocompanies that means if you have witnessed debate must'vefelt the train june the twenty second and july sixthwhen you call this mcgregortwentythreemy soul's three daysdid you get everything best for the state of
the investigation that was going on from other people in the fbi during those meetingsor any other means notatthe portland at all how you keeping up with the state of theinvestigation and then that period of timethere were these initialtwenty eighti guessdid you think that mr dean wilkening to persistent inhis request that too not that they're so the interview with mr barry whiteand earth and nest gobblingit was beginning to resist
he saysthat circumstances existedconfusion that you justwon't even continue to request that you not pursue this interview oninterrogation even after you had told him that thecia had assured you that there was no danger of involving thecia in mexico is not correct that's correctnow you were talking to juvenile homeland mrfelton mr bates with respect to investigations theywere meeting you and you were going over the state of the investigationnow did
you like it that that being for assistancewas actually at designing to somethingwith respect to this investigation and the reason thatdidn't is that we're investigatingso i can truthfully say that we didn't get thatexcited about it except to say that these leads are going to be coveredeventually and we continue to work closely with the sole exceptionof interviewing individuals concerns of them what was the basis for youincluding gena workers at the presidentfbfb
choosemaniamany cases just inconsistentwithfunnynice
This record is featured in ““Gavel-to-Gavel”: The Watergate Scandal and Public Television.”
1973 Watergate Hearings
Part 4 of 6
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Robert MacNeil and Jim Lehrer anchor gavel-to-gavel coverage of day 36 of the U.S. Senate Watergate hearings. In today's hearing, L. Patrick Gray testifies.
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Chicago: “1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-08-06; Part 4 of 6,” 1973-08-06, Library of Congress, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed May 19, 2019,
MLA: “1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-08-06; Part 4 of 6.” 1973-08-06. Library of Congress, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. May 19, 2019. <>.
APA: 1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-08-06; Part 4 of 6. Boston, MA: Library of Congress, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from