1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-10-09; Part 2 of 3

apiecebutton a sense of that butmore surprises to their muslim clothes not enough waterrenegade the vehicle no my impression isthat the box was given the helm when he came in in the morning and he nearlywon character howlong did you work there before you is not ouramerica three weeks and who in the organization not a name and picture of thewho in the organization turned the documents over to the opposition of theoriginal i don't know don'task me and thank you

they werethey were generally in the nature of the infiltration of penetration attheir methods that i consider standard that i think most people inand political foryears visitorswith the oppositionthe messagesthe muskie campaign

as i can imagine prison inconnection with the question of the summer this informationwould've been public knowledge to discuss the possibility of someone to assimilate whatwould be public knowledge of fourth mr musk is a position onissues of concern or anything like that or or you can start by giving them werefortunate about ailes i think the reasonthat i got them i didn't examine that closely i thoughtthat they were getting any place else that they had known that thepresident had no access today in theform of aquestion mr manseau author camera toask mr buckley it first came across doma why despite placed in the musty

office right now we're going to take a short break public television coverage of the senate watergatehearings will continue after this pause for a station identification on average coverage of thehearings is being broadcast as a public service by your local public television stationthis is pbs for public broadcasting servicethepope thepope

from washington impact continues its coverage of hearings by the senate

select committee on presidential campaign activities it again and by correspondentjim lehrer as we go back to the hearing today senator talent has turned aquestion john bartlettit'sbyou first meeti asked her i met him in the early sixties in west indies alot of the time i was withlistening to me about the first time readingit was one of several peoplethat show we interview in connection with oursummer estimated to gambling establishment she began

writing that he was there and it really good weekend interview him and others thatwere there as witnessesover burgersnow when you employ to hamed an electric they must beheadquarters what criteria were you looking for as apersonthis was available wouldbe willing to take do you thinksenlevin no when education moneyto finance it i

kept it in cash i kept it in the office and my desk or unsafe ikept it at home at different times and use of this isahead they're known that they do a full time federal employee mron that set and reviewed faded not thinking of dutydesert was a violation that i'm not todo think that was permitted by that and that's aguess i didn't i didn't have any thoughtyou didn't know that that was specifically who thought that were permitted by the headseti have no reason to consider thatdon't you think taking someone of personal documents and photographs and live our liveswith the national oriented in a matter whatit is saying and whyour response you and

thank youpolitical espionage i think its infiltration i think it'spenetration i think it's something that occurs in every major election happens and ithink it perfectly legitimate i think about you don't think anddrive the true authentic whatever why do take the fifth amendmentthen asked for immunity before you just say i'm notfamiliar with the full range of law and a newelection laws statutes and for that reason i thought that youknow there may be something in those new laws that version on this kind ofactivity here operation was the protests to see them on investingat that entails is no wreckage of a planei'm an

advantage in the liver photographs documents to consent must betwo stripes on the committee to reelect president myestimation would be twice a month to each benefit once seven months probablyfifteen times in one eight months or maybe truthfully more timeyou do that the operation was larger than you first evasion it would belarger share this not only was largerthan that i was surprisedat thatearly development of this kind in the journal be available to this man ididn't envision that such a thing would happen as quickly as a pillar that would happenat all you get more secret information than you thought you werei didn't see any classified information in therecompetition is so sensitive

you did find some sensitive tothink you want a fewactivities were your vote will certainly cause of religion right thingie what isesl and i thought that i was providing a service that i was areference oh candidatesin would have preferred the republican president be really unfortunate sheridanfriends are now on an operationdid they give any from theprevious operations when you deliver the documents just rent he was more prone toabuse and time and a cosmonaut was concerned that myprevious three months before you also are being delivered tonight onactual documents just want to move forward

and that vacuum and senator there were occasionswhen a taxi empire would bring a press release from the pressand that would be delivered in its form there were twooccasions when i and wires and provide thematerial for a cow mr lance said that you know thatinformation were to receive campaign really compresson the contrary to me about that memo had come from thematerial and he told me at that time when i confronted one a year later so hetold me that he applied to me in the fact that memo had come from the committee relateto others in a way and information were to see them ofcourse a limitless durant's get leaked to the press those mediahe did

that one particular moment only longafter the campaign that the committee had set that towhat was a total amount of haunted to receive the operationsena my recollection is that that we went about seven monthsinto was seven months of seven thousand now and that was eight months and saythank you have heard from ourseptember nineteen seventy one through april nineteen seventy twothat governments throughout wild sour ale york which ran forgraphic material and etcnow fallen way again when it was in thenewspapers you recognize it is that you've beendealing with mr wyman was in fact how about you would come fromshannon about that family

i know those concerns but it occurred to me thatthis was saying that i mean a huge that's a really committed areelected president i don't think thatthere was anyone i was acquainted with that discuss it with icertainly did in the nextyear ratingsratings previous art isn't tellingbiden reagan and you give any thought to the one the authorities andtelling them about get no vote and form an fbiwhy not but informing fbi will activities thati had been on the activities to live longer and your

associations power i didn't see any connectionterminator three or four months before the waryou made him on the street and clandestineman both of you using aliases and transformed our collection cachewanting to think it might be something a little mysteriousi think that was that worsens or beauty and it isn't on transactionlike on an effort by iti there was a non transaction forty four election year youthought piano on both parties usingaliases and foreign stolen documents inform grab normaltransaction am legend ian pannell was going back months i think that will be calleddiscrete that's where the heat where did you learn ethics and political

campaignsi suppose nineteen sixty four to nineteen seventythree some political machine in somebig city added you learned that fresh island much of it waswritten and now you everdiscussed you involved in last intelligence operation wouldyou should carry a list to get some lemonsenatorevans andi would stand and they were trying to promote communications with him inregard to the activity that we've been discussing today and one everinstruct to remain challenging a new apartmentthank you for the question

what would you expect to find wasreally useful information so when it started i didn'tknow what the fine i didn't know what he would be rejected meaning they can gatheri certainly thought that would be i'm not much of atour to find out where the senator was going tobe and days andlook for weeks in advance what the positionof the center would be an app reviews and issuesstaff list of hisdaughter has volunteered for the days they all wereprinted a specialist with the thoughtful members of all volunteerforce thank you we're looking forward to really gel

and audiences toward saddam was who is doing his campaignthings you say the material would be before thefinal it'sunderstand the hatch act for me evidence unlawful inyour official capacity of your government will lead to get anew election or influence an election and understand you know johndoe oh the correct there's an alliterativeinvestigation second inspection you in any way and that's a much bigger operationuse your official position was one of five or sixreliable believes that there would beno common facilities are mature use it will be done on my owntime nothing illegal indian law and that i will be the judge of whatit really isn't

and that is one reason that i think so the headsetas i read it did withanticipation collecting a fine privilege likea passing out literature running for office taking part inpartisan conventions are meetings that kind of thing and it's allspelled out in the air both cities are chiefcounsel counseling to question thoroughly with itand some of the carnage that touched uponcandidates in west virginia in north carolinathese involvereform have monthsinvestigating irregularities on the part of the preceding the governor of

the state it was written what was thatthere arefiner and i maintain iranian candidates at thatwe were involved in there we found out that a millionairewe found out that therewere kickbacks involving the corporation'sreportedly you decide to do this cleanupbefore thatdaynew information we can get onto the candidate

who made available to the europeanconventions this fall i'm going to tryto investigate in thisconventionno sir i mentioned that two occasions at the request of thegovernment that the us or the republican candidate i want to lookinto somereportingit amounts to ordinary negligence inthis situation pro

bowl and the second instance that read all of themand borrow a review of it registrationsunfolding in the nineteen sixty eight election and the borderto find out it was basedallocation allegations and we did find some instancesand otherswe dono or what did you find that inhow many documents did you photograph them this must be up for therecall there would be

catalan forget any that with the times one of the three or fourand early might be a time as in casethere was one back in my weightcan you describe these documents many more detail youmentioned want to possibly out no more detail in amemo from a staffer who knows that her memo from astaffer to senator or a double spaced draftand i'm not sure there was one on the unemploymentrate believe is worthy of thedocuments that were being carried from his campaign headquarters who iscorrect whatwas going on possibly are

activated those staff in the senator's office it would needto consider these documents for theworsedid you find any you knowinformation and what you for granted indicated there wasany surveillance or intelligence gathering being done by themuskie campaign against it and no sirthey indicate to you know any ofthis information was useful and these documents i did notdiscuss that all about and i never had anindication that even with was useful on the country and there were complaintsthat especially in the early days that the film wasn'tright that it was funny that we couldn't read it was upside down that type of

thing not many accolades are veryissuethe leaks bysoit seemed to be in the areabecauseof that also when you wereappointed to your job or you will say i don't think it was afundamental sponsor somefor his experience with the economic opportunity act that some fifteenyears of investigative experience i

refusedvisitors weavethrough political espionagewhen youunderstand that you would be paul ii at anunderstanding that what we would count i had no idea that wouldresolve as quickly as itaccess i just want toclear about when you look at all your job on what you know ofthe earth nownow i had no idea and i was asked to where the previous fourteenministration was a whole political

activity grant recipients of all your fun such asthose involving legal services and community action programs andthosethingspolitical activitiesto disclosepolitical activity what do we would submit reportsthose civil service commission on to the otherthis weekin argentinagenerally between lebanon to all about once a week maybe twiceand some weeks there in the day a lot of this is dirty workeleven people

ididn't think you were going political activitywas being paid by the public and they go riding at exxonand we considered related politicallyso you don't think there's anysimilarity between grant recipientspolitical activityi aterecipients or were everdisciplined than any fashion four volumes of political activityno detailed a

subpoena is on just missionnasa had no idea that his dayall would you characterize would just say that it was illegalmotion on ethical i wouldnot say it was an act in terms of election year in terms of whatwe were seeking to doas an exampleso many political as well as those are all time and has beenon for many many years i don't feel an event thati know of instances where five or six a trainedinvestigator to conduct a surveillance is notparticipating in the national electionspolitical as

i i don't kill an investigation of someone they differ with meon i don't feelthat i have to justify responding the way iget to requests from generations who isn'tand in response to this the question you didn't feel that itwas the last thing on the part ofyou and mr weidman for grabbing documents withoutproper recording i don'tknow that would providesome frozen thought about government documents that would have

lost and that showed consumersit has been doneand i mentioned the legend is is a way to proceed onthat investment property a critical refinement you're really seductivewould you consider the interception of communicationfor the invasion of privacy as being illegal immoral unethicalso no i don't considervoice for the united states a private matter of this ruined the invadingthe privacy and that i think aboutcandidates are expected there will beinvestigations of them in their activities and i think again it's expected there will be attemptsto ascertain what their activity is in what their position on issues isdo you think we should make a few changes for the next election

surface of the legislation that will deal with political espionageit will that may be quite complex a wooden have no idea howyou could describe andthen enforce bn i think it's done every electionthat the three or four that now govern before that me and therewas a lot of it was a little likeconsumer yes and yes it was to was that the videos legalrights activist i think it wason the false pretenses intercepted communication what's really going onwhat the false pretenses statutes a similar reasons offood to be a volunteer idea of the second certainlyit did many things beyond what he did that there were major insurers and hecontinued on and interviewing losers as written

wasbutclient relationshipwith that mr lerner we're afraid that their attorneys with you hereis what we hear the question was asked whether i havediscussed with mr leonard my mind that pointone employer and employeeso there was a time when i wentin the house on matters involving myinvolvement nineteen seventy one seventy two

a nineteen sixtynine trillioncaulfield and a friend of mine that one occasion onthis relate tonono seventy thousanddollarsand your reaction

you were fourteenpetroleum reporters about one report iwouldn't consider reporting it as incomeand i don't think every quarter report is the fences orproviding benefitsrelationship now be careless open over the groundbelow with the staff lent her three occasions months in saying that we have todayno i wasn't quite clearin my mind i was your explanations ofinvestigations in west virginia and in north carolinawhere these investigations you're conducting in the capacity of

working for the house committee on education labornineteen sixties employee workingin itthe investigationsomeone askedmr stricklininvestigative the previous administration arenow your investigation north carolina what passesas a friendly republican have a personal favorite ofthe republican candidate for governor and isolated instances i look at the twothings that concern himnow i've gotten

the reading here from eminem who was sent to the attorney generalvibe or anywhere thirty firstnineteen seventy two ourfirst question would youat that time and very first journalism into thenation's surveillance operation inmozambiquehis campaign organizationson justin trudeau and askwho were not any of the items litter identified herehere in washington dc

invitations for the senate who appeared there washington affairs conference on march sixteenth atme no indication that they feel pleasure in the senator's introduction of us two ninesix fires so called truth and seventy onetwo sentiments has been invited to speak at the nineteen seventy two convention theundemocratic over wisconsin convention scheduled for march seventeen nineteen seventy twoat the last moment with him on a lot and actually costing thehouse office building fourteen point to washington dcas contribute to the most conservative campaignfor mr wylie home and doesn't polish national alliance of the united states ofnorth america also true of three washington dc supports obama'scampaign his address is five one one nine temples world washington dccorporations you're welcome

latinobut for specific situationsjust becausethank youi have known and ten letter n roses last letter to senator

mostly from robert okin financial and salt like an anti western countries it's myexpectation that additional funds can be available in thirty to forty five days noticetrueyou photographedisrael this really matters isyour turnover or are related to financial contributions not to myrecollection isn'tthree more question herecan you be morespecific and tell me about other instances otherpresidential elections central asians

were whereas you know that you engagepeople refer to this as the basis forofficecan recall employees were the nineteen sixtyfour and nineteen sixty president electo'neill done some investigation and theinvestigation theinvestigation of the election of individuals an election wasgoing on during a lot of this investigation after election so i have been investigating inrecent weeks several traininvestigation the nineteen sixty campaign and theverses or

worseyou are investigating the work ofinvestigators who investigated the sixty campaign nowyou knowpolitical activitybut now you say you know you're doing this at thepresent time so obviously this wouldn't be a justification for theactions which he took the court's eventual action

i gather you were motivated to justify those actionson the basisof my feelingspolitical intelligence gathering vital informationis done as a matter of course like as a matter of practiceon specifics on whatspecific steps you had and when you launch on thistype of work in mr stern muskie's campaign which was the basison america's would just decided to make these things into specifics innineteen sixty fourand as a viewerwell a question

want a small statewho the survivors will experience that doesn't go along with such were hereand we are both points of view on the table and quite frankly ithink the people of connecticut my libyan tunisian peoples countrywho don't think it should gothesedayssenate the conclusion campaign season you've got people whowill linger in covers on set totalk about them in london i saidfor a year and there was the

gatherings by financial markets we expected when we betaking the weekend about the winners by senate committeedemocrat versus republicanhe's been in the senatemost of fifty questions for the republican nominationhe didherelecturer at the time when i

was in a big us on wednesday to show that this vote wasthe silence thesympathizeri think the samethingand theserunning through your mind when you thinkabout those things at all i was this is a passionfor the patient or an easy thingwhen you losean electionwell you know sometimes

the whole world turned upside down by what seems to be a natural or understand whati suggest that our washington dc to the naturalworldwe devoutlyhow long were you a member of the fbiwhen you entered the fbi did you majorqualifications as a lawyer but an important part in being admittedand when you left thefbi when you work forme and can you work with that to me as a milliondollars an investigator to start andyou are a twenty oneyear a new pakistani law and all those

new pride yourself the name of the buyeryou take great pride in the name of oursun tabloid pride when i cani was happy when i pass the bar youfeel an obligation to your profession ethically icertainly do i would have to sing on tour well howdo you feel that that you have anobligation as an individual to your profession irrespective of whether or not you are practicing wari i don't know what obligations i had to myprofession i pay my duesobservant what i consider to be a reasonably ethicalexistence that you had and that had a few minutes ago that you engage in

their political connections to call her that's well people callthe terminal and that they said and it wasdesigned to at one of the candidates for presidentis designed to agee's committee us arenow you also stated that day while you weredoing ari and while doing that youemploy of the office of economic opportunity and usand that we're going out these activitiesduring the day i was getting them outduring a period of eleven to twelve and one or two days a weektoday juliethanks and that's when you would take

him on andcontinuously without faili couldn'tbelieve itthe musky in committeesthat are not what they called it the point i make is thatyou feel that because you were taking undertaking this task through your lunchhour so called lunch hour with the eleven twelve o'clock the onethat day were then acting probably not writingnow i don't really have to sayi have never been uncomfortable with a quid pro quobetween the government and within twenty five years i think that they did well byme and i think i did my work for twenty five years that's happening as a different

question it wasn't because it was eleven to twelve i didn't think that activity is covered by thesecond i think it's bailout mansoor well in one way it is a different tonei don't think they're the same thing i think they're apples andparish i'm satisfied and i wasn'tusing any garment time and human resourcesi don't feel itnowrubio well again and that takes that governs the behavior oflawyers and the responsibility family seeone that's fine a lawyer should maintainhigh standards of professional conduct and should encourage fellow lawyers to do likewiseit should be temperate and dignified and he should refrain

from arming illegal and molly reprehensible conductbecause of his position in society even minor violations of the law by alawyer made him the lesson public confidence in the legal profession will beused to augment amplifiers respect for law and lawyersespecially respect for the law should be more than about it do youfeel that that this provision apply to you so i haveno problem that vision i see nothing illegal activity that we've been talkingabout the one i'm from september seven when a positivethen that you stated afew minutes ago that said mr wyatt was the corner of these documentswas engaged in some kind of receiptat the reception i

was something differenthe was legion and that dishonestyown that center will was in a dishonest into a grassroots on thedocuments do you temporarily when he was there working for the muskiecampaign internet sites it's workingandi think there's elements of the session soeverything was taken bears werethe rubber gloves were used to i don't see anything ineffect until you feel that there was any foreign law itwas from all right then i will read you a somewhatvague items of misconduct that would

prosecute under an ongoing and thebody i won that one or twoengaged in combat and marling dishonesty drop thestate or miss representation you participated inthis statei think that data over hereso i remembered too i don't think that us involvementthat's actually just met him of somethingdifferent question don't you think thatthe sort of ethic governing the legalizationtwenty four hours a day there's

no questionwell you think that they would remain in the legal profession as a licensenumber of the barthank youand by the same token if you violated anyof the other hand and you would be subject to this region that i would beif there were a violation and of the reasons there's aculture of thechairman as euro sixteen which created thiscommittee for a presidential campaign activities of the nineteen seventytwo has that kind of male it illegal unethicalit

is clearly limited to nineteen seventy two wasextended for debate on the senate floor about whether theresolution should be amended to extend beyond nineteen seventy two resolutionwas my soulmate so we're dealing with nineteen seventy twobut it seems to me that we have aproblem here of forgettable be an illegal and into an ethical orundesirable which are made judgments and highly subjective an amazingnew benchmarktake their courselastly the benchmark for some basic errorsthat made this the eye mainly to some years agoi make that statement alsofully understand why i'm asking the next line questions about a

way to circumvent the mandate noresolution which created for jurisdiction on this committee but ratherto service some other guy out of his committee and making thosejudgments on whether certain conduct is undesirable unethical asdistinguished from illegal if ityou know instances of politicalads and afterthat many details mcconnell twoyears or evensome suggest protests against certain matters have beenabused in this record would be that the democrats did it to be sure

that's not online search for that i am searching for some basis for a comparisonvery excellent question that in some work there we cando with additional cancers objective analysis we need lawand taking an important significant that whichgo into that may well be political communities andset up what is unethical or undesirable once routine wagner what's done all the time what isabout some information about that and as one memberof the committee of like others along that position of thealleged misconduct reported that another can arrange thequestion was what what is the standard on politics americanyou haven't given as much so far as well wasto get it as one member of the committee had to hear

and so i don't thinkpeople are to this committee's hearingwe're conscious that political informationand he entered the navy had that many of them are tellingpoint just a moment ago we were weremandated to work for me and the violations that have a lot to inquirealso in libya legally may be unethical or undesirablenow if that sell it but there is a generalopinion in the political community of families are hurting thatgathering information services where you can put a politicalespionage was the normal an ordinary thing to do our human and notunusual likeany

religionother instances of theprevious year i suppose to china last week that this podcastwill probably cut off it as an expert witness saidnotwithstanding you mentioned particular information based on her poems are experienced inopinionif we work with them that will be the next dayfb it'sbeen