The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MAC NEIL: And I'm Robert MacNeil in New York. After tonight's News Summary, we have a full report on today's catastrophic explosion in Oklahoma City, and Charlayne Hunter-Gault continues her conversations on affirmative action tonight with David Lawrence, publisher of the Miami Herald. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: There was a bombing at a federal building in downtown Oklahoma City today. Much of the nine-story office building was destroyed. Twenty people have been confirmed dead, including seventeen children. At least 200 people were injured. Scores are missing. The building housed offices of the Social Security Administration, the Secret Service, the Drug Enforcement Administration, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms, among other federal agencies. It also contained a day care center. Officials said the bomb detonated in a car outside the building. They said they were looking at the possibility of a terrorist attack. No one has claimed responsibility. President Clinton spoke this afternoon at the White House.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: The bombing in Oklahoma City was an attack on innocent children and defenseless citizens. It was an act of cowardice, and it was evil. The United States will not tolerate it. And I will not allow the people of this country to be intimidated by evil cowards. I have met with our team which we assembled to deal with this bombing, and I have determined to take the following steps to assure the strongest response to this situation. First, I have deployed a crisis management under the leadership of the FBI, working with the Department of Justice, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms, military and local authorities. We are sending the world's finest investigators to solve these murders. Second, I have declared an emergency in Oklahoma City. And at my direction, James Lee Whit, the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is now on his way there to make sure we do everything we can to help the people of Oklahoma deal with the tragedy. Third, we are taking every precaution to reassure and to protect people who work in or live near other federal facilities. Let there be no room for doubt. We will find the people who did this. When we do, justice will be swift, certain, and severe. These people are killers, and they must be treated like killers. Finally, let me say that I ask all Americans tonight to pray, to pray for the people who have lost their lives, to pray for the families and the friends of the dead and the wounded, to pray for the people of Oklahoma City. May God's grace be with them. Meanwhile, we will be about our work. Thank you.

MR. LEHRER: A federal office building in Boston was evacuated one hour after the Oklahoma City explosion. Internal Revenue Service workers had reported their offices appeared to have been tampered with. Federal buildings in Fort Worth, Texas; Wilmington, Delaware; and other cities were also evacuated as a precaution. There was heightened security at the Capitol Building in Washington and at other government facilities around the country. We'll have more on this bombing right after the News Summary. Robin.

MR. MAC NEIL: Almost exactly one month after a terrorist gas attack on Tokyo's subways, there was a second attack today at a train station in Yokohama, Japan. Nearly 400 people were injured. Japanese authorities identified the gas as phosgene, a highly poisonous World War II chemical. Police also announced the arrest of a high-ranking member of the cult suspected in the Tokyo attack. We have more in this report from Caroline Kerr of Independent Television News.

CAROLINE KERR, ITN: Once again, the Japanese underground has been attacked by a mystery gas. For the second time in a month, innocent commuters have been struck down as they made a routine journey to work after gas was released at a busy station. Hundreds were rushed to hospital, stretching Japanese medical facilities to the limit. Terrified passengers poured onto the streets suffering from nausea and dizziness. Almost immediately, specialist poison gas units were sent in with neutralizing chemicals, while police and firefighters in protective clothing scanned the station for traces of the poisonous chemical. The Japanese authorities treated this as a major security alert and mobilized thousands of emergency workers within hours of the attack. At the height of the pandemonium, many of those traveling were schoolchildren going home for lunch. Tonight, as thousands had to brave the subway system again to get home, authorities confirmed that the gas released today was a World War II chemical called phosgene. Police are certain that today's attack was a deliberate criminal act. For most ordinary Japanese people, it's the latest security fright to affect a nation already on the brink of hysteria.

MR. MAC NEIL: A car bomb in Madrid, Spain, injured the conservative opposition leader today. At least 15 others were also wounded. Authorities are blaming Basque separatists for the assassination attempt. More than 740 people have been killed in the separatists' 27-year campaign for independence from Spain.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Richard Lugar officially entered the 1996 presidential race today. The Indiana Republican is chairman of the Senate Agriculture Committee and is a former chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He made his presidential announcement in Indianapolis, where he once served as mayor.

SEN. RICHARD LUGAR, [R] Indiana: The conventional wisdom of generous columnists seems to be that Dick Lugar would be a good President. [cheers from crowd] They contend that he is intelligent, has broad experience, exercises courage, and prudence appropriately. But they add that such a person is rarely nominated or elected. [laughter in crowd] A part of the conventional wisdom I gratefully receive, but the conclusion, however, is a severe miscalculation of the wisdom of the American people. [cheers from crowd] At bottom, it says that Americans will not elect the person they find best qualified for the presidency, but I absolutely disagree, and if I didn't, I wouldn't be running. [cheers from crowd]

MR. LEHRER: Lugar is the eighth formally declared candidate for the 1996 Republican nomination. The Supreme Court heard arguments today about two minority-dominated congressional districts, one in Louisiana, the other in Georgia. Critics complain the districts were gerrymandered to create a black majority. Supporters argue race must be considered in creating congressional districts to reverse past discrimination. The court is expected to rule by the end of June.

MR. MAC NEIL: In today's economic news, the U.S. trade deficit narrowed by nearly 25 percent in February. The Commerce Department said the monthly gap between imports and exports was just over $9 billion. The U.S. dollar regained some value against the Japanese yen today. In New York trading, it rose 3/4 of a yen to 8135. Earlier in Tokyo, it briefly fell below 80 yen for the first time ever. Japan's Central Bank bought dollars, pushing the greenback higher. Ford Motor Company announced first quarter earnings of 1.55 billion dollars today, an increase of 71 percent from a year ago.

MR. LEHRER: President Clinton said today he will not allow Republicans to blackmail him into signing legislation. House Speaker Gingrich has threatened to attach legislation the President opposes to the national debt ceiling bill. The government would be forced to shut down if the debt ceiling bill were not signed by the President. Mr. Clinton said that strategy would be an error. Vice President Gore today urged a permanent renewal of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. He spoke at the United Nations, where representatives from 176 nations are considering extending the 25- year-old treaty.

VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE: Today we know what those who were present at the creation of the atomic age could only hope, that proliferation can be halted, that nations can work together to protect their mutual security. We cannot rest, and we will not rest, until those goals and the Nonproliferation Treaty become enduring realities.

MR. LEHRER: Some third world countries are against a permanent extension. The Indonesian ambassador said it will lead to a division of the world into nuclear haves and have nots.

MR. MAC NEIL: That's our summary of the top stories. Now it's on to the Oklahoma explosion and affirmative action. FOCUS - DEADLY EXPLOSION

MR. MAC NEIL: We lead with the Oklahoma City bomb story. The federal office building attacked held 550 employees today, as well as a day care center. Officials on the scene have said the explosion appeared to be caused by a car bomb, although the investigation is just beginning. Hundreds are still unaccounted for, and federal bomb experts and investigators have been arriving in the city throughout the day. We begin with a report from Charles Newcomb of Oklahoma Educational Television.

CHARLES NEWCOMB: The scene was more appropriate to a third world war zone than a city in the middle of the United States. Hundreds of people were injured, both in the federal office building and other structures surrounding it.

MIKE CONNELLY: [person injured in explosion] There was a bomb, and the ceiling fell in, and the building shook, and the walls crashed in, and I covered my head up. And then it was a matter of yelling for people to see if they were okay. There just wasn't that much you could do. We got Fran out of her office as best we could and someone else who was kind of locked in, but after that, we just -- we found a chair and brought her downstairs.

MR. NEWCOMB: Oklahoma City Minister Larry Jones, who has been involved in numerous overseas relief efforts, never expected to see this kind of damage at home.

LARRY JONES, Feed the Children Ministries: My first reaction coming on this was it looks like Bosnia, where, as you well know, there's been a war going on for four years. The other place it looks like is the Armenian earthquake, the Mexico City earthquake, it looks just like an earthquake. It's almost unbelievable to see the magnitude of this bomb. I just can't -- I just can't conceive of anybody doing what they've done today. But this is mid-America, and I think this probably sends an alert not only to the United States but throughout the world of the kind of things that can happen in the future and in the days ahead.

MR. NEWCOMB: Just an hour after the initial explosion, downtown Oklahoma City was shaken up again with word of another bomb or maybe two.

MAN ON CELLULAR PHONE: They say there is possibly another bomb.

JON HANSEN, Oklahoma City Fire Department: We had to shut down operations for about twenty to thirty minutes because of that, and that was very frustrating because we were right at the point where we had people, and we had to leave 'em. We got back to 'em, and like I said, it's just going to be maybe a two- or three-day event.

MAYOR RONALD J. NORICK: That building had somewhere around 900 people in it, and so we've got to get in there, and that's the main thing first, is to try to find people that are in that particular building.

MR. NEWCOMB: For officials on the scene at this point, it's only a secondary concern to find out who did this and exactly how and why.

MR. MAC NEIL: At the White House this afternoon, Attorney General Janet Reno laid out the government's plan for dealing with the bombing.

JANET RENO, U.S. Attorney General: This has been a tragic and heartbreaking day. I can tell you this: The FBI and the law enforcement community will pursue every lead and use every possible resource to bring the people responsible to justice. The FBI has established a command post in Oklahoma City, and it is in 24-hour contact with FBI headquarters command post and with the Department of Justice. Four FBI special agents in charge have been dispatched to the scene to provide 24-hour operations of the command post. The FBI has sent four evidence response teams and explosive ordinance teams to Oklahoma City. Five of the very best FBI agents, experienced in this type of investigation, are arriving in Oklahoma City, as have bomb technicians from Boston, Chicago, Miami, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. Thirteen members of the Rapid Start Team will be entering data as the evidence is collected. Fifty more agents are available for arrival tomorrow, and more will be used as needed. The FBI and federal law enforcement have received superb cooperation from local authorities in Oklahoma City, and the federal law enforcement agencies are working together. The ATF has sent two national response teams and a mobile command center. It has three explosive technicians and three laboratory technicians in Oklahoma City, and it is prepared to send twenty to twenty-five more personnel tomorrow. The Secret Service is also sending explosives experts. In addition, the Oklahoma National Guard has been deployed to assist in control of the area and the evacuation of the injured. The United States Army has deployed the 61st Ordinance Detachment with a robot from Fort Sill, Oklahoma. The Tulsa police Department has deployed two bomb technicians, two dogs, and a robot. And the FEMA is playing a major role in aid and assistance. We cannot tell how long it will be before we can say with certainty what occurred and who is responsible, but we will find the perpetrators, and we will bring them to justice.

REPORTER: Have you put out a bulletin seeking some particular suspects, and what can you tell us about that? There are reports that there are descriptions of a couple of people who you are seeking.

JANET RENO: What I can say about all evidentiary issues and all leads is that it would be -- it would hinder the investigation to discuss any action that we are taking pursuant to the leads. But we are pursuing absolutely every shred of evidence available.

REPORTER: If people are to be on the lookout for someone, isn't there a way that you can describe those people?

SECOND REPORTER: It sounds from everything you've said as if you've concluded that this was a terrorist attack of some kind. Can you confirm that?

JANET RENO: I would not characterize it as such until the evidence is in, but we are pursuing every piece of evidence and with whatever motivation behind it.

THIRD REPORTER: Do you have any statistics on the casualties?

JANET RENO: We have some statistics on the casualties, but they are increasing every moment. What we are trying to do is to make sure that we pursue every lead.

THIRD REPORTER: Do you have any raw statistics?

JANET RENO: What we have been told is that there were 550 people assigned in the building. Only 250 had been accounted for before I came in. There may be as many as a hundred to two hundred and fifty more people to account for. The casualty figures are climbing. One hundred victims have been treated. Six children who were in the day care center have been confirmed as dead, and we are just pursuing absolutely every lead that we can.

FOURTH REPORTER: Have there been any more threats against any other federal government [buildings] across the country?

JANET RENO: In a situation like this there are sometimes terribly misguided, horrible people who create copycat situations. We've responded in each instance, and so far, nothing has materialized.

FIFTH REPORTER: Was there any indication, any warning, that anything like this could happen? Because there are conflicting reports that not specific warnings per se but warnings that there might be terrorist activities in the period after March.

JANET RENO: Again, I can't comment on any specific lead or any - - any of the evidence that we have developed.

THIRD REPORTER: Do you think there's any tie-up with Waco?

SIXTH REPORTER: Ms. Reno, the current crime bill that the President has signed includes the death penalty provision. Assuming you do catch these people, will you go for that?

JANET RENO: Eighteen USC, Section 844 relates to those who maliciously damage or destroy a federal building. If there is death, if death occurs, the death penalty is available, and we will seek it.

SEVENTH REPORTER: On the importance of this event, are we crossing a new threshold of concern about security in this country, when even Oklahoma City is not safe?

JANET RENO: I think that this has been a matter of concern for all Americans anytime you see acts like this around the world, and I think it is a matter that has got to be pursued with all vigor. I can't tell you whether it's a crossroads. I can tell you that anytime something like this occurs, we have to do everything possible to ensure that the people who are responsible are held accountable and that we do everything we can to prevent a future recurrence.

EIGHTH REPORTER: General, can you tell me whether or not this is a coincidence.

NINTH REPORTER: General, what cautions would you urge other people who work in federal buildings or live near them to take?

JANET RENO: We are working with the General Services Administration and then Marshal Service and the FBI to take sensible precautions, and the federal employees who have been involved have just been wonderful.

MR. MAC NEIL: For more on the story, we're joined now from Oklahoma Educational Television Studios by reporter Charles Newcomb and Patrick McGuigan, chief editorial writer of "The Daily Oklahoman." We expect to be joined also any minute by the mayor of Oklahoma City around Norick. Charles Newcomb, let's just pursue the question of how many are missing and what is happening. I heard on the wires they say that an official of the Oklahoma City Ambulance Service, the communications supervisor, Paul Homan, said he'd been told to expect as many as 80 bodies to be brought to a morgue set up 10 blocks away from the office building that exploded. Can you add anything to that?

CHARLES NEWCOMB, Oklahoma Educational Television: All we're able to say right now is that there are 19 people confirmed dead, and that 17 of those are young children. Presumably, many of them had been in the day care center on the fifth floor of the federal office building. We have heard reports, and looking at the damage from the scene, it's apparent that there are probably going to be many more deaths than that.

MR. MAC NEIL: By looking at the scene -- and we've seen the pictures -- how much of the building looks inaccessible, just piles of rubble that they're going to have to take a long time to get into?

MR. NEWCOMB: We have seen firefighters climbing through most of the building up to the upper floors of it, but their concern at this point is the hollow spaces which may have been left by the collapse of the floors and ceilings and that there may, in fact, be people still alive in those places that are going to be very difficult to get to until there is heavy equipment available at the scene.

MR. MAC NEIL: Do they have any count or any way of counting how many are not missing because they're trapped in the building, alive or dead, but just went home or got out of there when the explosion happened?

MR. NEWCOMB: There really is no way to count that right now. And, in fact there has been a call that has gone out in the last few minutes from, from the press conference that we just watched on television, that the people who got out of the building are being asked to call back in and report that they're all right.

MR. MAC NEIL: Patrick McGuigan, how much time are officials estimating it's going to take to dig through this rubble and find those who are still missing?

PATRICK McGUIGAN, The Daily Oklahoman: Well, certainly at least until tomorrow, and there's been some speculation it will be two or three days before they feel they have a handle on it. It's going to be, of course, a lot longer than that before a lot of us recover here in Oklahoma City.

MR. MAC NEIL: Yeah. Can you explain the, the confusion over reports of one or more unexploded bombs? We saw -- and we'll go back to Charles in a moment -- but we saw in his report the people running away and the rescuers apparently had to abandon the people they were trying to rescue temporarily because of those reports - - can you throw any light on that?

MR. McGUIGAN: Not really. I know about as much as you do. I'd just say that there was at least one other device that was, in fact, de-fused, and then I've heard two or three other devices, somewhat conflicting information all day. We're trying to get a handle on it, of course, at the newspaper and plan to devote extensive coverage to this tomorrow.

MR. MAC NEIL: Sure. Charles, can you add anything to that?

MR. NEWCOMB: I know that we were moved away from the scene about a half hour to an hour after the explosion when they said that there was a possibility that there was another device. Now, they did let us back in perhaps two hours after that, and we're not sure whether they were talking about another device which had been planted. There's also been some speculation -- and it's only speculation at this point -- that some of the government agencies - - the Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms Bureau, among others -- may have had some weapons in the building, and that was the concern, rather than another actual explosive device planted by someone from outside. But as far as I know, they have the situation -- the building secured as far as explosives go at this point.

MR. MAC NEIL: I heard Congressman Istook, the Oklahoma Congressman who was interviewed earlier this afternoon, say that portions of the big bomb were discovered -- recovered five blocks away. Have you heard that, that portions of the bomb were discovered?

MR. NEWCOMB: I have not heard anything about the -- the bomb, itself, being discovered that far away. I know that the damage has gone much farther than that. It has gone a mile or more in all directions from the site, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were portions of whatever device was used that got that far. We have not been told anything officially about that at this point.

MR. MAC NEIL: I see. And the -- the reports included that there were some traces of ammonium nitrate discovered around the scene, suggesting the possible composition of the bomb. Can you add anything to that?

MR. NEWCOMB: Well, not really. The concern on the scene here has been for the people who may still be trapped in the building, obviously for the injured and for the families of the dead, and while there are a very large number of law enforcement officers on the scene at this time, I think that is their primary concern, rather than the investigation of the actual bombing, which is going to -- going to begin tomorrow and go on for the rest of the week certainly. We had heard some reports of ammonium nitrate being found around the area. That's not a terribly unusual substance, but in large quantities, it can be explosive. And I believe that was used in the World Trade Center bombing.

MR. MAC NEIL: And it is a substance commonly available in, in fertilizer.

MR. NEWCOMB: Yes. So it would not be unusual for that to be found in Oklahoma, although downtown Oklahoma City might be a little unusual.

MR. MAC NEIL: Patrick McGuigan, we heard Attorney General Reno refusing to respond to questions about any suspects they were searching for, but there are reports that the city police of your city have put out descriptions of two young men said to be of Middle Eastern appearance driving a brown Chevy van and wearing blue jogging suits. Can you -- have you heard that report, and is that correct?

MR. McGUIGAN: Yes, yes, all day, beginning midday and continuing right up through about thirty-five, forty minutes ago, I've heard that description. It's been broadcast on local television stations, on the radio, and we've heard it in our newsroom.

MR. NEWCOMB: We should point out, however, that Bob Ricks, with the FBI, was just on the television a few moments ago in a press conference downtown and said that, that there are no suspects at this time. So that may be a miscoordination among the agencies, or it may be that, that the FBI is now backtracking on suspects.

MR. MAC NEIL: Would that mean -- these reports came initially from local stations in Oklahoma City -- would that mean that they are not, in fact, searching for those young men of that appearance, or that they're not officially regarded as suspects?

MR. NEWCOMB: I think we're still trying to sort out what it means at this moment. Obviously, General Reno was on television just a little while ago saying that any information that's released at this point might jeopardize the investigation. We're not sure if that might have been a premature release of that suspect information or exactly what it is.

MR. MAC NEIL: There were also reports on local television which became national, as everything does, Patrick McGuigan, this afternoon. Immediate speculation which some officials refused to rule out, that because today was the second anniversary of the federal action against the Branch Davidian Compound in Waco, Texas, which resulted in 80 deaths there, that this might somehow be connected with that, partly because, I suppose, there is an Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms Office in that building. Can you throw any light on that?

MR. McGUIGAN: Well, I mean, I would, I think, echo her opinion. I think it'd be kind of dangerous to speculate until we have more information. The initial information out of Oklahoma City with some official cover, if you will, because it was released by the police department, points in a different direction. Let's wait until we have a little more to go any further with thinking about where this might have come from.

MR. MAC NEIL: Sure. The, the President said that he's declared a disaster area, an emergency. How great, Patrick McGuigan, is the damage to other buildings in the area, and what kind of damage is there to the infrastructure of the city by the explosion?

MR. McGUIGAN: I don't know what extent the damage of the infrastructure is. The damage to other buildings in the immediate area is pretty substantial in the sense of blown out windows. We saw all day -- saw photographs coming into the newsroom and saw, of course, on television the buildings where the windows had been shattered being boarded up, a lot of protective measures being taken, some clean-up already beginning, and like I say, it's in at least a one-mile area around, and certainly within three or four blocks, as Charles saw in his report, the damage is pretty extensive in that sense. I don't know about structural damage to other buildings or infrastructure damage to roads, anything like that -- I can't help you.

MR. MAC NEIL: But it's enough to cause them to bring the Oklahoma National Guard in to, to secure the area.

MR. McGUIGAN: Yeah. Nothing like this has ever happened. I mean, at the Cathedral Church here in Oklahoma City, the Catholic Church, there is a prayer service tonight. The Episcopal Cathedral Church downtown suffered damage. The oldest church building in downtown Oklahoma City, all of the stained glass windows were shattered, the building, itself, appears to be sound. The human loss is unfathomable, and there's also the loss of some of our most beautiful parts of the downtown. This is going to take a long time.

MR. MAC NEIL: And damage to your sense of security.

MR. McGUIGAN: Exactly.

MR. MAC NEIL: Well, Patrick McGuigan and Charles Newcomb, thank you both for joining us. I'm sorry the mayor was unable to be with us. That concludes our report on the Oklahoma explosion. SERIES - AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

MR. LEHRER: And now we continue our conversation series on rethinking affirmative action. President Clinton has called for a complete review of the government's affirmative action policies, so have others in and out of government. Tonight we hear from David Lawrence, publisher of the Miami Herald. Charlayne Hunter-Gault spoke to him recently.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: David Lawrence, thank you for joining us. Do you think affirmative action should continue?

DAVID LAWRENCE, Publisher, The Miami Herald: Absolutely. We're not close to everybody having a fair shot in this country. You heard me say it before. I don't use words like affirmative action, et cetera. I just think it makes people's eyes glaze over, but do I think we ought to make sure that people have a full and fair opportunity? Absolutely.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Using some of the tools of affirmative action, goals, timetables?

DAVID LAWRENCE: We do it at these newspapers. And we ought to do it at these newspapers. We're not lowering the standards for anybody. We've got the exact same standards. In fact, we're increasing the standards. But we're trying to make sure that we've got room for everybody here.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Why? Why is that important?

DAVID LAWRENCE: Maybe it's particularly important because of the kind of work that I do, the kind of work you do, which is to say if you're trying to cover, depict a whole community, you need to have a staff and a management that reflects that community. But I would say the promise of this community, the promise of Greater Miami, the promise of this country is you figure how to make it work for everybody. You figure out a way to include everybody, and if you don't do that, we're going to have chaos and rebellion.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: How do you promote affirmative action without having a big stick?

DAVID LAWRENCE: You start by people like myself and other people speaking up about this all the time not in a way to use the words affirmative action over and over again but to tell people what the values are on this place, starting out with the philosophical approach that says we're trying to include everybody, helping people to understand the practical imperatives that you can't get to the future if you're a newspaper without fully reflecting the total community, by telling people around here, is everybody gets a fair shot to get ahead, by when we have positions making sure that we don't have just one kind of person as a finalist for the position, that we need genuine diversity in these, and not, not pinning the future on any one position, but simply saying, if I'm a leader, a manager, an executive, I ought to be able to look back and say have I made some genuine progress. Here we got twenty- three, twenty-four, twenty-five hundred employees here, 52 percent of them are minorities; 40 percent of them are women, 40 percent of the total staff.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But many white males feel that blacks are getting promoting and advancing at their expense. How would you answer that?

DAVID LAWRENCE: Well, I think you're absolutely right. There are a lot of angry folks out there, including a lot of angry white guys. One of the more foolish things said that I hear is white guys don't have a chance anymore, so you don't have to look far around to see that that's not so I hear it in my own shop here. I hear it from people, boy, am I going to have a chance anymore? The reality is all we're trying to do is make sure everybody gets a chance. I think what is right is or true is that there is this enormous change going on in this country. And a lot of people are uptight about it. Whether it is cyberspace or layoffs here or restructuring there, or whatever, I think people are very uptight about change. There's more anger and shrillness and mean-spiritedness now in this country than I've ever seen.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Why do they think they are?

DAVID LAWRENCE: Because I think people in an uptight world with extraordinary change are trying to get ahold of themselves, including finding out why they didn't get ahead. You know, when people didn't get ahead before, human nature hasn't changed, you find a reason. In the old days, you didn't have this as a reason because everybody was your basic white guy around. Now you don't - - you don't have that. Ah ha, I know what's happening here, we got some social engineerings experiment or something else going on, people look for a reason why they didn't get in. Most folks don't say, well, you know, it's my fault, what can I learn out of this?

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Affirmative action was supposed to be a temporary remedy. I mean, how long is temporary? How long should it go on?

DAVID LAWRENCE: As long as it takes. Are we close to equity and fairness and parity in this country? And I'm not talking about some quota system. Take my own business. In American daily newspaper newsrooms, in the aggregate we're about 12 percent minorities. Here what do we live in -- a country double that -- with the percentage increasing all the time. It just seems to me fundamentally fair in terms of getting with the future that we have staffs and management here and lots of other places that reflect the full community.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Is there any way to say when the end point might be?

DAVID LAWRENCE: You know, I'd love to tell you. I'd love to tell you that in my lifetime before I complete my lifetime that you won't need to worry about skin color and gender and ethnic national origin, et cetera, that we won't need to worry about this because we'll be somehow colorblind. I don't think we're going to be at that point in my lifetime.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What do you say to those who say that this results in standards being lowered, sending a message that blacks aren't as good as the whites?

DAVID LAWRENCE: I'd start out by telling you I've never met anybody who was black or Hispanic or anything, white, who said, I want a job on that basis. I think the cruelest thing we could do is to hire somebody and say, well, we hired you essentially because you were black. It's a stupid reason as the principal reason to hire anybody.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But there is that perception.

DAVID LAWRENCE: Absolutely the perception. What you need among other things, we need management, people in charge, to say, no, let me tell you what we're doing. I don't lower the standards for anybody around here. Do I ever take a chance on people? I'm supposed to take chances all the time. The problem was in the old days, not that far away ago, only folks anybody ever took chances on happened to be of the same skin color and mostly of the same gender. People have been taking chances all the time. Somebody took a chance on you. Somebody took a chance on me. I had -- maybe we only started using this phrase -- but I had a mentor -- I've had a bunch of mentors in my life. What could be more natural than that? I started out in the newspaper business when I was 15 years old. That's now 38 years ago. Somebody gave me a chance to do something. Then I made something of it. I worked in the back shop of a newspaper and then after my shift was done, I would plague the people out on the city desk to let me rewrite some things at age 15. So I got the opportunity, and then I made more of it. Same theory holds for anybody in this world. This isn't -- we're not talking about anything that violates any accepted norms of fairness, in my estimation.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But opponents of affirmative action say that the principle, itself, violates certain fundamental principles of this country, individual merit, that you don't use a discrimination to cure a discrimination.

DAVID LAWRENCE: Well, I don't think affirmative action is about discrimination at all or even close to it, and nor do I, incidentally, believe that we have any extraordinary record in this country of pure meritocracy. If we had an extraordinary record of pure meritocracy, there would have been a hell of a lot more Abraham Lincolns in this country and Franklin Delano Roosevelts and probably fewer Millard Fillmores in this country. So now people - - people make it work in their own head for themselves. We do need to be a meritocracy. I think what we're talking about, if done well, is a meritocracy.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Do you think that the public understands affirmative action, that they're well informed?

DAVID LAWRENCE: Absolutely not, no. I think it's ill prepared. Indeed, I think one of the things that the President of the United States ought to do a lot more of is talk about this subject, not using over and over again the phrase affirmative action but talk about what this country is supposed to be, talk about what he learned in the ninth grade in civics and I did too, which is about meritocracy for all, about including everybody, about fairness. I frankly think the leaders of this country -- in the same way that I think I have an obligation -- need to speak out more forcefully about an America that includes everybody. He actually has a great record on it in many ways. If you look at the national administration, it has done a better job as a meritocracy of including lots of different kinds of people, so I think he has a good record to talk about. I think the bully pulpit role of the President is fundamental.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Even some who supported affirmative action initially say now it's become divisive, counterproductive.

DAVID LAWRENCE: Well, I have no doubts that people have applied things foolishly or that there are no doubt regulations that exist that are unwise, but I also think that these rules and regulations and laws came about in the same way that environmental laws came about in this country. Sometimes you simply can't trust people to do the right thing. You need to insist on it. Do I think that at times it's divisive? Oh, sure. Do I think it's counterproductive in the sense that it is divisive? Sure. But I think it's mostly a problem of the inability to articulate what this is all about. This isn't about quotas. This isn't about lowering the standards. That's where the battle is being fought by people who say we have lowered the standards. I'm not lowering the standards. I'm maintaining or heightening the standards in my place of work. I'm not trying to reform the newspaper business. I'm trying to do right by my own obligations.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What happens if affirmative action is discontinued?

DAVID LAWRENCE: It would resolve nothing, because I don't think you can fundamentally tell people this is the land of opportunity and have any wherewithal to look people in the face and say that I'm not going to worry about this anymore. I can't tell you how many people tell me I'm just an American, or I never think about a person's skin color. I think they're fooling themselves, but I don't think they're fooling me and a lot of other folks. This -- I'm in a community that is the great American adventure -- lots of different kinds of people. Two million people live in Dade County, Florida, a million three hundred thousand more in Broward County. We've got the darndest mixture of different kinds of human beings. We will preview the next century here. You can't make a great community and you can't make a great country unless you figure out how to sort of get everybody involved in this. It's to the benefit of the majority because you have far less social strife. It's the promise of this country.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, David Lawrence, thank you.

MR. LEHRER: This series continues tomorrow night with an interview with Ward Connerly, a management consultant. FOCUS - SEED MONEY

MR. MAC NEIL: Finally tonight, private funding for public education. When the former U.S. Ambassador to Great Britain, Walter Annenberg, announced a $1/2 billion challenge grant to promote school reform across the country, school reform activists were thrilled. New York public schools received the first grant, Los Angeles schools the second. Correspondent Elizabeth Brackett reports on Chicago's quest for a large part of the largest private education grant ever made.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT, WTTW: It was a big moment for an 11-year-old. This January, Amanda Merato got a hug and a kiss from Wallace Annenberg and a $49.2 million check from the Annenberg Foundation.

AMANDA MERATO: I would love to accept this check on behalf of all Chicago public school children.

MS. BRACKETT: The receipt of that check was the result of a process that started over a year ago when former editor and publisher Walter Annenberg and his wife went to the White House to announce a $1 1/2 billion challenge grant to promote school reform around the country.

WALTER ANNENBERG, Philanthropist: [1994] I do not believe the Annenberg Foundation's $500 million challenge grant over five years will do the whole job. This must be a challenge to the nation.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: This is a very, very important day for American education and for America's future. And the people of the United States will forever be in the debt of these two fine people.

MS. BRACKETT: After hearing the announcement, university professor and reform activist William Ayers moved quickly. How long did it take you to decide to go after the money for Chicago?

WILLIAM AYERS, University of Illinois: Thirty seconds.

MS. BRACKETT: And what did you need to know about it, and how did you start?

WILLIAM AYERS: Well, what I knew about it the first day, what I read in the newspaper is the same thing that everyone else read in the newspaper, which was that Amb. Annenberg was going to give $1/2 billion to reform urban schools. And at that moment, I knew that Chicago had to be at the top of the list and if it wasn't at the top of his list or his advisers' list, we had to put it there.

MS. BRACKETT: Ayers and other reformers spent the next year putting together a grant application. They thought they had a good chance at the money because they could point to reform efforts already underway in Chicago schools. Over the past five years, Chicago has undergone the most extensive restructuring of any urban school system in the country. A 1988 School Reform Act brought about decentralization of the school bureaucracy, increased local control by parents, and the use of innovative teaching methods. Private money has played a critical role in reform from the beginning says Warren Chapman of the Joyce Foundation, a foundation that has made $13.6 million in grants for reform over the last five years.

WARREN CHAPMAN, Joyce Foundation: The private money in public education for school reform has gone up considerably since 1988. Then it was probably about two or three million dollars annually going into Chicago for reform. And now in 1994, it's a little over $10 million a year. So it's had a considerable increase at that level. On the public side, I think they move public money around. There is some increase but nowhere near the level of increase it has been on the private side.

MS. BRACKETT: At the Washington Irving Elementary School, the Joyce Foundation helped launch the Best Practice Project, a project designed to bring the best teaching methods to the classroom and a project highlighted in the Annenberg application. Principal Madeleine Maraldi says Best Practice has changed the way children learn here.

MADELEINE MARALDI, Principal: I've seen children who used to sit in a classroom and pretend they were listening, listen sometimes, not listen to a teacher who was presenting for most of the day in a lecture style to a bunch of involved kids who are in charge of their own learning and who have something to learn and then something to teach to others.

MS. BRACKETT: 90 percent of the students at Washington Irving are from low-income families. About half are African-American, half Hispanic. Writing is heavily emphasized. Even the youngest children have writing portfolios, and they love to talk about their stories.

ADAM AMEZAGA: He was dancing and dancing, and then girls started chasing him, and then he climbed up a big tree.

MS. BRACKETT: That kind of enthusiasm has paid off. Since reform, reading scores at Washington Irving have gone up 25 points. Math scores are up 55 points. The reformers highlighted those achievements and the similarity of goals between Chicago school reform and the Annenberg Project when they crafted their grant request.

WILLIAM AYERS: The Annenberg people would like to see school change represented in classroom change. They'd like to see schools that are having the courage to try new things be rewarded. They'd like to see some well crafted strategies that involve kids becoming much more personally known in schools, much more a part of this, a sense of community, and those are consistent with what's gone on in Chicago for the last five years. And we have lots of examples to show them where that's happening.

DEBORAH WALSH, Chicago Teachers Union: Now the job is taking it to the next step, and that is operationalizing this framework for you.

MS. BRACKETT: One of those examples comes surprisingly from the Chicago Teachers Union. Deborah Walsh has headed up the first attempt in the country by a teachers union to restructure the way teachers teach. Traditionally, teachers unions have been at odds with reformers. In Chicago, a grant from John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation helped get the union's Quest Center off the ground.

DEBORAH WALSH: We're here to support teaching professionals, to effect revolutionary changes in the education of Chicago school children. We start from the premise that the factory model of the past, the rows, the desks, the passive regurgitation of facts, may have served us at some point in time, but it doesn't serve us today when the demands of this technological world in this ever-changing society require a lot more thinking and application of ideas and problem-solving than in the past.

MS. BRACKETT: Teacher retraining sessions like this one run by the Quest Center for elementary school teachers are considered critical by the Annenberg Project. Teacher Mary Giannetos thought the training session was useful, but she points out how hard it has been to bring reform to a big urban system.

MARY GIANNETOS, Teacher: It's sad to say that I think the biggest resistance to change are teachers. I mean, let's face it. If they're don't -- if they don't believe in the change, then they're not going to implement it.

MS. BRACKETT: Although the Chicago system has attempted a lot of reforms that fit in with the Annenberg mission, it cannot yet point to definitive results. Test scores have not improved systemwide. But reformers think the Annenberg funding can help those scores by linking up successful schools like Washington Irving with less successful ones.

WILLIAM AYERS: What we want is those schools who've already taken advantage of reform and found ways to move forward, we want them to share their expertise, to share their genius, to share their practical knowledge, with other schools, and make this change wider, broader, deeper.

MS. BRACKETT: All the hard work Ayers and others did on the application paid off. They got the grant, the largest private gift ever made to the Chicago schools. And it calls for a two to one match from the public and private sector so it could bring in as much as $150 million for reform in Chicago. Argie Johnson, who heads the financially strapped Chicago public school system, saw the grant as a turning point.

ARGIE JOHNSON, Chicago Schools Superintendent: I think what has taken place here today is unprecedented. I think both nationally and throughout this city and state there is a vote of confidence in public education at least here in the city of Chicago and I'm sure throughout the state by the awarding of the Annenberg Challenge Grant to this city.

MS. BRACKETT: The grant may have been a vote of confidence from the private sector, but no similar vote of confidence seems to be forthcoming from the public sector. The school system faces a $290 million deficit. None of the Annenberg money can be used to plug that gap. And the newly-elected Republican-controlled state legislature and the governor say education reform is not enough to make them loosen the purse strings.

GOV. JIM EDGAR, [R] Illinois: I don't think you can expect because there is a willingness on the part of a private foundation to put somemoney in to speed up education reform that the state is necessarily -- the legislature is going to say, well, we're going to overlook the fact that while you have brought about some instructional reform, you really haven't done anything about financial reform and trying, you know, to tighten your budget and live in a more fiscal responsible manner.

MS. BRACKETT: Not so, says Superintendent Johnson.

ARGIE JOHNSON: Well, we've reformed some education programs, and we have reformed some of the fiscal programs. For instance, we have put in some efficiency measures in our purchasing and warehousing department, and within the last two years we have realized the savings of about $20 million.

MS. BRACKETT: But suburban state representative Mary Lou Cowlishaw, Republican leader on the House Education Committee, says most legislators still see too much waste and corruption in Chicago's system. She says despite the involvement of foundations and the influx of private money, there is little sentiment in the legislature for bailing out Chicago's public schools.

REP. MARY LOU COWLISHAW, Illinois Legislature: Pardon me, but an awful lot of legislators are very resentful about the mismanagement of money in the Chicago public schools. And no matter how much confidence others may have in the possibilities for the kids, it's the management, it's the adults in that system that an awful lot of legislators truly resent.

MS. BRACKETT: Principal Maraldi says the legislators ought to come and take a look at the schools.

MADELEINE MARALDI: I want them to come into the schools. I want them to talk to the children, get into the classrooms, and I want them to talk to the teachers,a nd I want them to see how we're using the money they've already given us. There is this misconception that the whole system is wasting this money.

MS. BRACKETT: To apply for a slice of the Annenberg pie, schools will submit proposals to a private reform group that will oversee the grant. Maraldi was already planning her tactics.

SPOKESMAN: We think we have a pretty good understanding of the criteria of what's going to be looked for.

MADELEINE MARALDI: We've got to get in to see what's being done. Then they've got to have that after school stuff development like we have, and there's got to be that teacher-to-teacher contact.

MS. BRACKETT: But under state law, Chicago's schools cannot operate without a balanced budget. If there is no money from the legislature, Chicago schools may not open in the fall, despite the millions of dollars private funders have poured into the system. RECAP

MR. MAC NEIL: Again, the major stories of this Wednesday, a large car bomb exploded at a federal building in Oklahoma City. At least 20 people, including 17 children, were killed, and 200 were wounded. Scores of others remain unaccounted for. President Clinton called the bombing an act of cowardice and evil and pledged the strongest federal response. And in Japan, there was a gas attack on the rail system in Yokohama. Nearly 400 people were injured. It comes nearly one month after a deadly nerve gas attack in the Tokyo subways. Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Robin. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.