The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. Leading the news this Wednesday, the Persian Gulf tanker war escalated with Iran and Iraq hitting a total of seven ships. The young West German who landed a light plane in Red Square pleaded guilty at his Moscow trial. The government ordered airlines to report flight delays and lost baggage. We'll have details in our news summary in a moment. Jim? JIM LEHRER: After the news summary, two congressmen debate the desirability of a big machine called the super collider, four Americans of culture debate the state of cultural literacy in America, and we close with a report on the CIA in South Dakota.News Summary MacNEIL: Iran and Iraq hit seven more ships in the Persian Gulf overnight and today in the greatest violence since the tanker war resumed. Iranians gunboats attacked three tankers Tuesday night, and a fourth cargo and a cargo ship today. One of the tankers was Spanish owned, another of Korean registry. And today's tanker target, Japanese owned. Iran's official news agency quoted Prime Minister Hussein Musavi as saying Iran will respond blow for blow. Iraq, meanwhile, said its jets hit two tankers today. There were no clear accounts of casualties or damage. U. S. officials said Washington was pressing Iraq hard to stop the attacks it resumed last weekend, prompting Iranian retaliation. Western naval power in or near the Gulf is still growing. Yesterday, the Second World War battleship Missouri arrived with an escort, and the U. S. built its task force to 40 ships. France today ordered three minesweepers into the Gulf area. Jim? LEHRER: In the Philippines today, President Aquino laid out the full dimensions of last week's attempt to overthrow her. She said in a nationally televised speech that 1,350 army troops were involved. Their leaders' goal was to kill her and run the government, and they even planned to kill U. S. officials and burn the CIA office in Manila. MacNEIL: In Moscow, a West German teenager pleaded guilty today to charges stemming from his landing a light plane in Red Square. Mathias Rust, 19, told a Soviet court he now regretted his actions, but he said he breached Russia's air defense network in order to meet Mikhail Gorbachev to discuss world peace. Rust's mother, father and younger brother were present at the opening day of his trial. He faces up to ten years imprisonment for violating Soviet air space and malicious hooliganism. When the judge suggested the teenager should have landed at the Bonn residence of Chancellor Helmut Kohl if he wanted to impress the world, Rust replied, ''I was seeking a source of peace. And the source of peace is not in Bonn, but in Moscow. '' His trial is expected to last three days. LEHRER: Back in this country, the Dept. of Transportation announced new procedures today, aimed at getting airliners to fly on time. The procedures involved a public rating of flights, according to ontime performance. Airlines will also forced to disclose information on cancelled flights and on lost or delayed baggage. Transportation Secretary Elizabeth Dole explained the reasons for the actions in a Washington news conference.

ELIZABETH DOLE, Secretary of Transportation: We believe that disclosure of this information will help reduce considerable frustration with airline delays, while giving carriers additional incentive to be more responsive to consumers and to compete on the basis of better performance. LEHRER: Also on the aviation front today, an American Airlines 727 had to make an emergency landing at Tampa International Airport when the pilot reported an engine on fire. Thirty one passengers and a crew of six were onboard. Some reported minor injuries when they evacuated the plane on slides. Controllers in the tower saw no flames or smoke and believe the problem was caused by a faulty warning light. The plane was on a flight from Nashville to Tampa. MacNEIL: Today was the last day for states to submit bids for the super collider, the nation's proposed $4. 4 billion atom smasher. Five states submitted bids today -- Idaho, California, Alaska, Michigan, and North Carolina. At least 20 others turned in bids yesterday or earlier. The winner, according to the Energy Dept. , winds up with 3,000 jobs, practically no added pollution, and a $270 million annual budget. A final decision on which state wins the project is expected in January 1989. LEHRER: The toll of blackened forests in the West rose to more than 130,000 acres today. Firefighters from as far away as the Northeast were called in to relieve exhausted workers in Northern California, Oregon and Idaho. There have been several evacuations in small towns in the area. Most of the fires were sparked by lightening strikes, but arson is suspected in at least three cases. And that's it for the news summary tonight. Now, it's on to the super collider, cultural literacy, and the CIA in South Dakota. Collider Collision LEHRER: The super collider story is first up tonight. It's about how people are crazy to build a 52 mile long atom smashing machine in their states, and it's about how some people think it's crazy to build such a thing anywhere, much less in their state. We begin our look with some background from Kwame Holman. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It is a momentous leap forward for America, for science and for technology. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I think it will completely change the way we live and it will change the way we think. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: This project is bigger than the Alaska pipeline. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Scientific equivalent of the Grand Canyon

KWAME HOLMAN: It's being called the biggest scientific project in history. Physicists are hoping it holds the answers to questions of the origin of the universe. What they are talking about is the proposed super conducting super collider, a new giant atom smasher. If built, the super collider would be an underground tunnel, or ring, 53 miles around, roughly the distance covered by the beltway that circles Washington, D. C. The tunnel, 10 feet in diameter, would serve as a sort of racetrack for two beams of magnetically guided protons, the tiny particles found in the nucleus of atoms. Moving in opposite direction, the beams would reach nearly the speed of light, traveling the 53 miles at more than 3,000 times a second. At certain points, the two proton beams would collide, sending out a shower of particles. Researchers say those collisions are capable of recreating conditions similar to the theoretical explosion that may have created the universe. Sophisticated computers would record the event, providing data for scientists to study. Dr. LEON LEDERMAN, Director, Fermilab: One way to describe it is as a giant microscope, a huge microscope which would enable us to see down into the submicroscopic world.

HOLMAN: Leon Lederman directs the Fermi National Accelerator Lab near Chicago, home of what is currently the world's most powerful collider. Fermilabs is the closest prototype of the proposed super collider. The new super collider would smash subatomic particles with 20 times the force of the collisions in Fermilab's four mile collider ring. The race for a new super collider began in 1983, when the Reagan Administration called for a new generation of bigger machines to continue basic research. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I think the super collider would be probably the greatest single thing that could ever happen to Arizona.

HOLMAN: The announcement triggered vigorous competition among some 30 states vying to host the super collider project. [film clip] VOICE: Those who eventually come to work with the giant atom smasher will enjoy all the amenities the Chicago area has to offer.

HOLMAN: It's generally agreed that five states are now the frontrunners. Arizona, California, Colorado, Illinois and Texas. Each claims its site meets the requirements. Sixteen thousand flat acres of land, enough water, geological stability, access to modern technology, and cultural and educational institutions. This week, those claims landed on the doorstep of the Dept. of Energy, as competing states rushed to get their bids in by this afternoon's deadline. Politicians hoisted boxloads of documents, touting their states in ceremonial hand delivery of their proposals to the Federal Government. The prize for the winning state is prestige, dollars and jobs. The super collider is expected to generate 3,000 permanent jobs and employ 4500 during 7 years of construction. The price tag is $4. 4 billion, and could reach $6 billion by the time the project is completed in the mid 1990s. Pres. RONALD REAGAN: The laboratory breakthroughs in the high temperature superconductivity are an historic achievement.

HOLMAN: According to the plan, in January 1989, as one of his last official acts, President Reagan will name the state chosen to host the super collider. LEHRER: With us now, two congressmen whose views collide over the super collider, Don Ritter, Republican of Pennsylvania, and Terry Bruce, Democrat of Illinois, who joins us from Chicago. Congressman Ritter, is it the scientific equivalent of the Grand Canyon? Rep. DON RITTER, (R) Pennsylvania: I think if you think in terms of size, yes. But if you think in terms of what it means for America, it may be the pork barrel equivalent of the Grand Canyon. We've had a lot of problems in competing with the Japanese in other areas of science and technology which could be denuded by spending $4 to $6 billion on this massive concrete, steel public works project. LEHRER: Why is it such a bad idea in your opinion? Rep. RITTER: Well, I think it's a good idea, but now's not the time. We've got a nearly $200 billion deficit, and I think it's ironic to see Phil Gramm, the coauthor of Gramm Rudman coming out there, selling the super conductor super collider, which we don't have a line out of in the budget for. LEHRER: I notice that Pennsylvania's not one of the states that wants the super collider. Does that affect your view of this in any way? Rep. RITTER: Well, I think maybe I was one of the reasons to convince our administration in Harrisburg that there were other states which were probably better suited to it if it was going to come about, and that the idea of the super conductor super collider, while a great idea, doesn't really fit with what the problems America faces in scientific technology today. LEHRER: Why not? Rep. RITTER: Well, it's basic, basic, basic research. We're going to collide protons to get subatomic particles below the size of quarks. Now, we've got problems in -- LEHRER: Size of what? Rep. RITTER: Quarks. That's what we're getting today. It's a very small particle. And we've got to regain our position in semiconductors. We've got photonics, the lightwave communications of the future. We've got telecommunications, we've got materials, ceramics, we've got -- super conductors -- by the way, the showing of the President there, he was in a conference for super conductors, not for the super conductor super collider, and that is somewhat a little bit misleading there. But we've to all these priorities, which put us head to head with the Japanese in a global race and our other competitors. The super conductor super collider has virtually nothing to do with this. And a lot of scientists out there are saying this very thing. Unless, of course, they're high energy physicists, with a basic vested interest in a SSC. LEHRER: Congressman Bruce, your defense, sir? Rep. TERRY BRUCE, (D) Illinois: Well, the super collider gives us knowledge, and we're not going to be able to compete in the world economy, unless we have the knowledge to advance our technology in industry, in science. And the super collider gives us those things that we will need in the future. In the 1860s, no one could see with the discovery of electricity and electromagnetic waves that we were going to be on television this evening. But that's how it came about. In the 1920s when we found quantum mechanics, no one thought about the whole question of semiconductors. But that's a major part of the economy in the United States. This is the next great leap forward for the United States Congress, as it relates to all the other countries around the world. The failure to do this will mean we will become a second class country. That's my fear. It may not happen, but I think we have to keep pushing back the frontiers of scientific knowledge if we expect to be a leader in the world. LEHRER: What about Congressman Ritter's point that it's a pork barrel project, basically, and it's the wrong medicine at the wrong time? Rep. BRUCE: It's not a pork barrel project. It's -- you know, all of us in Congress have come behind the idea that America has to advance. We support space projects. We support projects in other states across the United States. Those are not pork barrel. That's ability to make our country advance. And so as we have 230 sponsors on this particular piece of legislation, the backing of the President of the United States, a commitment in his own budget to go forward with this project, I don't think it's pork barreling, it's recognition the United States has to be the leader in scientific knowledge. LEHRER: I have to ask you the same question I asked Congressman Ritter. Are you influenced at all by the fact that Illinois, as Kwame Holman said in his report, is one of the five leading candidates to land this big thing? Rep. BRUCE: Obviously, Illinois, I'd love for it to come here. But it's a national project, it's a regional project. New York's proposal had seven states in it. We're joined by Wisconsin. The state of Ohio and West Virginia went together. States all over the United States have tried to join in our ability to get this project. It's not just an Illinois project. It's a national project. We'll have to get the support of the Congress and the President and his cabinet. We think we have that kind of support. Now, whether it comes to Illinois or California, Texas or Arizona, or Colorado, or any of the other states in the United States, I plan to as a United States Congressman, support it. Because we have to keep our national priorities advancing in the area of science. LEHRER: Congressman Ritter, what happened in Congress? I mean, everybody seems to be supporting this except you and a few others. Why is it so popular with everybody else but you? Rep. RITTER: Well, there's myself.There's a number of other thoughtful members of the Congress who are opposing it. But it is a political juggernaut. It is the greatest pork barrel project since things like the Grand Cooley Dam. In fact, somebody's even compared it to that. It's mostly concrete and steel, to build this gigantic 53 mile in circumference race track. You gotta build 10,000 of the same kind of magnets, by the way. We don't even have the first prototype. LEHRER: What about the congressman's point -- Congressman Bruce's point that we've got to stay ahead -- if we do not build this, it could make the United States a second class nation? Rep. RITTER: This is the central argument over the super conductor super collider. LEHRER: Well, let's join it, okay? Rep. RITTER: Is our problem that we're not ahead in basic science, basic research? We are the basic research fruit tree for the world, and everybody comes along and picks it, and everybody will pick this the day that material is out in the scientific journal. Where we are having our problem is in the application of science, in the commercialization of science -- going deep, deep, deep into the basic research is not America's problem. In 1987, or for the remainder of this century. LEHRER: Congressman Bruce? Rep. BRUCE: We have to stay ahead. We've recognized that in Congress by doubling the budget of the National Science Foundation between 1982 and 1988. We'll double again between 1992. Basic science is the driving machine. From that you get all the technological increases and all the technological advances we have. But if you stop basic science, then you don't have the follow on products. We can pick that tree. We can have the basic scientific knowledge in the United States. We don't have to get it from the Russians, the Japanese, the Germans or the French. We need to have it, and we need to plant that fruit and then pick it as it comes along, and make new jobs for Americans. Rep. RITTER: A lot of people think that just because it's basic science that means it translates into economic well being. But you can select those areas of basic science which have the most applicability to the realm of competitiveness. And so many people in the scientific community will look at this $6 billion as denuding all those different areas, some of which were mentioned before. You have to set priorities. We don't have a line item in the budget for this. LEHRER: How did this get this far, then? Rep. RITTER: It's such a big deal for the state that gets it. You take California, Illinois and New York? They've got a hundred congressmen on that bill alone. And then you add in Texas, and you get, what, 25 plus more congressmen. Well, sure, as that list gets real short, though, you may see some people deserting the ship, like rats off a sinking ship. LEHRER: Would you -- I will not use your colleagues' analogy -- but would you desert this project if there's another cut and Illinois drops? Rep. BRUCE: Not at all. If California gets it, any other state gets it, I'm in for the whole time. This is not a state project for Illinois. It's a national project. And we will have to get the support of the Administration and the Congress on a continuing basis. That's why we went out and got 230 sponsors, and that's why governors from more than 25 states have said, ''We want this project,'' and I think they told their congressional delegations, ''If it doesn't come to my state, let's continue to build it. '' And I think that's what's going to happen in Congress. LEHRER: But for a second here, let's take -- examine what the impact of $4. 5 billion, 3,000 jobs -- these are jobs of mostly scientists, right? What would be the impact, say in your state, congressman, if it were to come to Illinois? Rep. BRUCE: It would be a tremendous bonus. $270 million annual payroll. We're talking about a $4. 6 billion project, the largest public works project in the history of the United States, other than the interstate highway system. It would be a great scientific coup for the state of Illinois. But the University of Chicago, the University of Illinois, and consortiums of universities that will operate this facility will disseminate that knowledge throughout the United States and throughout the university network. Students of this knowledge will go all the way down to the classrooms of every high school in the United States. This is a project that will radiate out to every state across our entire nation. LEHRER: And congressman, you swear that -- Congressman Ritter -- you swear that if Allentown, Easton, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, towns in your district, were -- if they were on the list, you would feel exactly the same way? Rep. RITTER: I've got to tell you that there is a major vendor, and I'm not going to name names, but there is a major vendor in my congressional district that wanted to build a $200 million system, and I had to tell him, I said, ''Guys, in all honesty, I can't support this. '' You know Fermilabs out in Congressman Bruce's district, is underfunded. They've had to cut back slack. Stanford Linear Accelerator has had to cut way, way back. We're not operating our atom smashers that we have now. But this is seen as a big, future employment prospect in the high energy physics field, and certainly for those companies that are going to provide a tremendous amount of the brick and mortar and assistance for the SSC -- LEHRER: And Congressman Bruce, from your perspective Congressman Ritter's just odd man out here, huh? Rep. BRUCE: Well, I'm glad he's not in the competition. We have enough competition. All the linear accelerators which Congressman Ritter has mentioned -- we are in fact, all the directors of those programs support the building of the super conductor super collider, even though their programs are not at full funding. Other nations have recognized the need for this. We do, too. LEHRER: Gentlemen, we have to recognize the need to go on here. Thank you both very much. MacNEIL: Still to come on the NewsHour, debate on cultural literacy, and a report on the CIA in South Dakota. Ignorance Quotient MacNEIL: Next tonight, it's back to school time across the nation. While students are enjoying their summer off, debate has been raging in education circles over the quality of what American youngsters are getting in those schools. It's an old debate with a new twist, the twist being a best selling book entitled Cultural Literacy, by college professor E. D. Hirsch. The book has drawn praise and criticism from educators. What has attracted the most attention is the book's appendix, entitled, ''What Literate Americans Know,'' and consisting of a list of 5,000 items. Under the letter 'G,' for instance, you'll find Galileo, gall bladder, Gallup Poll, Greta Garbo, Gay Rights, Generation Gap, Genetics, and the phrase, ''Gather ye rosebuds while ye may. '' Our education correspondent took the Hirsch list to the Washington Monument, where he tried it out on a cross section of teenagers. Question Number One, what is Genesis? UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: A group of singers. UNIDENTIFIED BOY: A book in the Bible. UNIDENTIFIED BOY: It means, ''the beginning. '' UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: The rock group. UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: The certain portion in the Bible? JOHN MERROW: Okay, what's that mean? UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: I don't know. UNIDENTIFIED BOY: It means the birth, it's a rock group. Phil Collins.

MERROW: Cultural literacy, to E. T. Hirsch, means being familiar with the common knowledge that educated people take for granted -- the ideas, facts and assumptions that make up the culture. Cultural literacy means knowing that Genesis is the Biblical story of creation. It means having some familiarity with important historical events and dates. MERROW: 1861 to 1865? UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: Wasn't that around Columbus? UNIDENTIFIED BOY: About 1861 to 1865? UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Nothing. MERROW: 1861 to 1865? UNIDENTIFIED BOY: I think it was the Civil War? I'm not sure. UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Maybe the first depression in the United States. I don't know. I -- MERROW: Let me tell you who was president then. Lincoln. UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Lincoln? Oh, man, you can't put this on television! Okay, the Civil War.

MERROW: Sheer knowledge, like knowing when the Civil War took place, is the glue that holds society together, according to Hirsch. It provides continuity from one generation to the other, and enables scientists to talk to steelworkers, politicians, poets. Hirsch fears that in future generations, the glue will come unstuck. A recent study of 17 year olds reveals that 66% do not know that the Civil War occurred between 1850 and 1900. Seventy five percent could not identify Walt Whitman, Henry David Thoreau, e. e. cummings, or Carl Sandburg. And 50% of high school seniors did not recognize the names Josef Stalin and Winston Churchill. MERROW: How about Hoover? UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: Hoover? The dam. MERROW: Anything else? UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: No. A street. MERROW: Who is it named after, Hoover dam? UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: Eichman Hoover -- I don't know! UNIDENTIFIED BOY: J. Edgar Hoover. There's a Hoover vacuum cleaner. Hoover, Hoover, Hoover -- nothing. MERROW: Who's J. Edgar Hoover? UNIDENTIFIED BOY: I don't really know. MERROW: Madonna means what? UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: Means a singer. MERROW: Anything else? Tell me about her. UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: Madonna -- there is something else that has to do with Madonna, and it is historical, but I cannot tell you what it is.

MERROW: Cultural illiteracy threatens the fabric of society, Hirsch believes. Individuals also suffer. Those who only know Madonna as a rock star or Hoover as a vacuum cleaner, miss their opportunities to move up. And it's not their fault, Hirsch believes. He doesn't blame parents or television, divorce, Vietnam, or Watergate. He blames the schools. He's particularly critical of the way reading is taught in elementary schools. Too much stress on skills, and not enough on content. Hirsch wants young children to read culturally rich stories -- Grant and Lee at Appomattox, for example. Instead of culturally neutered paragraphs like, ''What is friendship?'' But not everyone agrees with Hirsch. His critics say his views are elitist. They ask, ''What information constitutes cultural literacy,'' and perhaps more importantly, ''Who decides?'' MacNEIL: We have with us to share his views on education and cultural literacy, the author of the book, Professor E. D. Hirsch, from the University of Virginia. What is the difference, firstof all, between cultural literacy and plain old literacy, which has been so much stressed these days? E.D. HIRSCH, college professor: Well, plain old literacy is the ability to decode the words from the page. And you can have that kind of plain old literacy without being able to read a newspaper or a serious book or article. Cultural literacy is a part of what I would call real literacy, or true literacy, mature literacy. That is, the ability to understand serious materials, that you need to be a citizen, or even to rise in the economy. MacNEIL: Is it your belief that all high school graduates in this country used to be culturally literate? Mr. HIRSCH: Well, certainly we know that there used to be more culturally literate than there are now, because we have solid evidence from the national assessment of educational progress that fewer students can now read at an advanced level than could 15 years ago. We know that the scores on the verbal portion of the scholastic aptitude tests have gone down in the last 15 years. It's clear that national literacy is declining. And not just among the lower class students, but also middle class students, and among those, the very brightest. MacNEIL: Who needs to be culturally literate? Mr. HIRSCH: Well, I think any citizen does in the advanced technological era. We all need to be culturally literate, because we all need to be literate. MacNEIL: If you don't know who Galileo is, for instance, what difference does that make? Mr. HIRSCH: It only makes a difference if you're reading a serious article or a book that refers to Galileo without explaining who Galileo is. You see, another way of describing cultural literacy is to say it's that knowledge that people take for granted when they write for a magazine, or a newspaper. And Galileo, I believe, still is somebody whom you would encounter without having it explained to you who he is. MacNEIL: How do you change the schools to achieve the levels of cultural literacy you think necessary? Mr. HIRSCH: Well, first of all, you have to call attention to the problem. I think it's been felt that reading -- it's actually only within the last 20 years have reading researchers found out that reading is not just a skill, but requires significant amounts of background information about the world -- what's on the page involves information that's taken for granted, but not stated. And if you don't have that unstated information, you can't read, you can't comprehend what you're reading. Now, once that's pointed out, I think the schools will begin to take care of these problems. I think that the nature of the problem hasn't been clear to people for the last couple of decades. That's why so much emphasis has been placed on skills instead of on content. It hasn't been understood that content is important. MacNEIL: Let me ask you one final question about content. What isn't clear to me in your argument is how much content -- for instance, Don Quixote is on your list. Now, what need a person know about that to be culturally literate -- to know that it's a character in a novel? Or to know something about him? To have read the book? Mr. HIRSCH: No. I think there are too many educated people around who have not read Don Quixote to say you have to have read the book. But those same people know a couple of things about Don Quixote, that he tilted at windmills, for example. That he was by somebody named Cervantes. And most of us don't know that Cervantes' first name was Miguel. But -- so actually, the way we've put Cervantes' name down is as Cervantes, because that's the way most people know it. But even though it may seem that that information is superficial, it's all important, because it orients you to what you're reading, and not only what you're reading, but to a program like this one that assumes, I think, a great deal of information on the part of its viewers, as any serious newspaper does, any serious magazine article does. MacNEIL: Okay, let's move on. With us to share their views are Maya Angelou, writer and professor at Wake Forest University, joining us from Raleigh, North Carolina; Patrick Welsh, high school English teacher and author of the book, Tales out of School; and Dr. Robert Cole, psychiatrist and professor at Harvard University, joining us from Public Station WGBH in Boston. First you, Maya Angelou in Raleigh, do you agree with Professor Hirsch that what is not being taught is a very grave gap and that it really matters? MAYA ANGELOU, Poet: Yes, I do agree. I agree with that question, and I agree that it does really matter. I find myself ambivalent about Mr. Hirsch's book, about as ambivalent, it seems to me, as Mr. Hirsch himself has been in the book, and in interviews which he subsequently gave on the content of the book. I, too, am alarmed at the lack of cultural literacy in our young people. And listening to the young people a few minutes ago wonder if Hoover simply was somebody who invented a vacuum cleaner or had to do with a dam, is really alarming. And I do -- let me say that I think it is -- MacNEIL: Let me interrupt you -- why is it alarming? Ms. ANGELOU: Well, I agree that the cohesiveness of the society can be seen in its communally shared information. I think that we -- the center -- does not hold, things fall apart if we are unable to share through conversation what we know about ourselves with each other. And we are absolutely unable to find out what somebody else is about -- which is -- let me get directly to my point about Mr. Hirsch's book, and an interview which he gave to the Chronicle, I think, of Higher Education, August 5 -- in which he almost as an aside, said, ''Along with the general education, he would include information about Crazy Horse and Harriet Tubman if people wanted it. '' Now, that alarms me, too. Because it seems to me all information, all knowledge is spendable currency, depending upon the market. All the information about this American experiment, this experience, is not only important, it is imperative that our children have at least a vague understanding -- all our children, our black and white and Asian and Native American children should know something about the black experience, the non black experience, the Jewish experience, the Native American experience. And so I don't know who would make the decision. I read the list, and it's really quite an impressive list of people that Mr. Hirsch plans to call in, and who maybe have already agreed -- MacNEIL: Why don't we come back a little later to the question of who would decide, and let me just get some initial reactions here. Patrick Welsh, you deal every day with teaching high school children, and with the difficulties and joys of that when they're joys. What do you think of his approach? PATRICK WELSH, high school teacher: I want to defend -- not those high school kids, but their teachers. I talked to several teachers at my own school, the history teachers, ''Do you teach the dates of the Civil War? Do you still teach any dates?'' And every one of them said they do. And the problem is that many kids simply -- they see them, and then the dates or the names, or whatever, are irrelevant. It's not that the teachers -- some teachers are not doing their job. But I think the main problem is unless something is presented almost as television in some kind of entertaining way, things simply fall out of the heads of many of these kids. MacNEIL: Like the teenager who remembered once he was reminded who the president was. Mr. WELSH: Once his memory was jogged, he certainly had that in school, and I'm sure every other kid there had heard that. I agree very much with Professor Hirsch, but I do feel ambivalent. I don't think we can discuss our schools today unless we discuss the effects, certainly, of television, and certainly the effects of poverty on the schools. I think if we look to Oriental students today, we have Korean students in my school who come in having no cultural background at all, and suddenly they're shooting up to the top of the class, not only in mathematics, but also in English, in the humanities. And I think what we see there are values in the home, are a love of learning that comes from an ancient culture that many Americans do not have, and that is being in a sense sabotaged in our own country not only by television, but I think one of the things we haven't talked about is the VCRs and the taping of movies. I have many students who -- they'll go home, they'll leave school in the morning and set their VCRs to tape the soaps and come home and after maybe watching television for two or three hours, the regular programs, will start watching the soaps that have been on in the afternoon, and will fall asleep at midnight. These kids don't have time not only to read Prof. Hirsch's list, but to read the actual works of this generation. MacNEIL: Robert Cole is in Boston. What do you think of the Hirsch approach? Dr. ROBERT COLES, Harvard University: Well, I think that no one would disagree with the good professor. We'd love to have all people able to know all the facts and all the assumptions that he's given us in his book. But the real issue to me -- and I'm sure for Prof. Hirsch also -- is not only cultural literacy, but moral literacy. Ralph Waldo Emerson, a hundred and fifty years ago, reminded all of us that character is higher than intellect. Prof. Hirsch has just told us that things were better 20, 30 years ago, and I'm sure he had his basis for saying that. But let me remind him that 50 years ago, when presumably things were even better than they were 20 years ago in our classrooms, we had lynchings all over the South, we had all sorts of racism and vicious assaults on people because of their religious and racial background endemic in this country. I regret to remind the professor, and remind all of us watching this program that here in Cambridge we had a president at Harvard University who established firm quotas to keep Jews and Catholics at a minimum. Presumably he was a very culturally literate man. We had at Harvard University and in other very prominent universities where presumably there's no problem with cultural literacy, 50, 75 years ago, we had intellectuals keeping blacks out even from living in the dormitories of our leading universities. In Germany in 1933, when Hitler took over, all (unintelligible) distinguished, culturally literate intellectuals rallied to his side, including Heidegger, and others who presumably had no problem with any of the lists that Prof. Hirsch has given us. So the question is not only factuality and the control of the mind over a body of knowledge, but what we do with that knowledge morally. And in this country, we were quite able a hundred years ago to live with a cultural elite, a kind of Tory smugness that was very well developed intellectually and yet morally way off skew. MacNEIL: Do you see in what Prof. Hirsch is suggesting a return to cultural literacy with the moral blindnesses that you're referring to? Do they necessarily follow? Dr. COLES: I think we have got to warn ourselves, all of us intellectuals, remind ourselves what was said a long time ago, that sometimes the first can be last, and the last can be first. And there is a danger for a lot of us that we emphasize intellectuality and forget the moral contours of what to do with that knowledge. Knowledge for what? For what moral and social purposes? MacNEIL: Okay, Prof. Hirsch, what's your answer to that? Prof. HIRSCH: Well, of course, I agree with Robert Coles. And I'm rather astonished that he would see a logical disjunction between -- really, for example that allusion the first shall be last and the last shall be first. I'd be very surprised if that weren't on the list. And if it isn't, I'll put it there. It should be. And what it alludes to, and in fact, I should say that's the main purpose of that list is to create greater social justice in our country. Because the fact is that because of lack of information, children from lower class homes fall behind in third grade, can't make up the deficit in fourth grade, fall increasingly behind in fifth grade, and the knowledge deficit, score deficit widens. People who had this deficit in third grade, they're the ones who drop out, they're the ones who are the poor in the society. And I believe it's perfectly possible to have cultural literacy and a moral society. Certainly, it's more likely that we will have social justice in this country if everybody is literate. And what we know is that we cannot make everybody literate in this country unless they have that knowledge which is necessary. MacNEIL: Dr. Coles? Dr. COLES: Prof. Hirsch, in Germany in 1933, we had one of the best educated nations on the face of this earth, with a wonderful system of gymnasia and all the desiderata that you've given in your book being vigorously enforced and yet we had a nation turned to madness and to cruelty. MacNEIL: Now, are you saying therefore, Dr. Coles, that Prof. Hirsch should not pursue his notion of cultural literacy, and that you shouldn't impose a body of commonly agreed knowledge upon high school students? Dr. COLES: I am all in favor of pursuing that. I'm simply saying issuing a caveat to myself and to all of us to watch out for intellectuals. They can sometimes be very smug and all too sure of themselves, and forget that at times, with all that knowledge, they're capable of enormous evil. And we've seen this. We've -- look, we had in the 1930s a culturally literate congress that couldn't pass an anti lynching law. MacNEIL: I think Maya Angelou wanted to get in. Ms. ANGELOU: Yes, just -- Mr. Hirsch continues to use the phrase -- I don't want to be a nit picker, but just for him to clarify it for me. You continue to use the phrase, ''lower class,'' the ''lower class student. '' Do you mean the economically lower class? Prof. HIRSCH: Yes. Ms. ANGELOU: And if so, then shouldn't we be back to Mr. Coles' question about the poverty in the schools? Prof. HIRSCH: Yes. Ms. ANGELOU: I'm sorry, the teacher's question about poverty in the schools. Is that what you meant? Prof. HIRSCH: Yes. I meant essentially it has nothing to do with race, because -- Ms. ANGELOU: No, I wasn't asking that. I just meant lower class. Prof. HIRSCH: Right, because in fact, children who comes from -- it's really a question of whether they come from highly literate homes. For example, you can come from a poor home that's highly literate, and you will still have a lot of this information. And so I guess the better phrase would be disadvantaged. But I would like to reply to Robert Coles, because I think there isn't any disagreement between us, and I think we do have to beware of smugness. I don't think that this information -- the French are terrifically literate, but I don't think they're admirable in all respects. I certainly don't equate literacy with moral excellence. MacNEIL: All right, let's come back to the high school teacher here for a moment. Ms. ANGELOU: Please let me say something. MacNEIL: He said to you the problem may be the schools, but it's also values in the homes, it's television, it's VCRs, it is distractions. How are you going to get around those? Prof. HIRSCH: I have a very simple answer. I think that is we should work as hard as we can to get rid of those problems, to improve those difficulties. That doesn't mean we shouldn't repair the mistakes we made in the schools. Historically, the schools have made mistakes. Historically, the schools have turned illiterate kids' populations into literate people. And I think we can do a lot better job, particularly kindergarten through 8th grade -- which is where most of this really is. Mr. WELSH: I agree. My son is starting first grade in a couple of days. And I hope he comes back with stories about George Washington and Icarus and Douglas, as you suggest, instead of see spot run. But I think, especially with the urban poor in my area, most of whom are black, we're going to have to work with those kids before school. Most of them come in so far behind because many of them have semiliterate 14 and 15 year old mothers, there's no reading material in the home, they don't get the kind of stimulation that comes just from being born in the middle class, whether it's black or white. And unless, I think, we reach some of those kids earlier, we're going to lose them. And I think Dr. James Comer of Yale has one of the best programs in the country, teaching the mothers of these kids how to stimulate them early, getting good child care, and getting them ready for kindergarten. I think kids coming into kindergarten now, if you speak to kindergarten teachers, the gap between the poor and the rich is just getting enormous. The rich kids with their coming in reading with their Montessori training, and having gone to day care centers since Day One. Other kids being almost totally abandoned -- MacNEIL: And books in the home, and -- Mr. WELSH: And books in the home, and being read to and so forth. And I think -- I hope we in the schools adopt all of Prof. Hirsch's recommendations, but I think we're also going to have to look at its social problems. The problems of the black poor in our high schools today are disastrous, the same in colleges at the University of Virginia where Prof. Hirsch teaches. And there are very few black kids there. There are more young black men in prisons than in colleges today. We must address this enormous social issue. And on the list of what is culturally literate and not, it's not going to be enough. Ms. ANGELOU: That's true. May I just say one more thing. I would like to find out from Dr. Hirsch, particularly, what does he mean when you suggest that his group will be able to give or not give what he calls ''the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval on textbooks. '' Who -- under whose authority? MacNEIL: That comes back to who decides. Ms. ANGELOU: Exactly. MacNEIL: All of these people in some way or another decided that in general, some kind of substantial agreed body would be useful, if it could be introduced in the schools, but who decides what that -- Prof. HIRSCH: Well, I think we have to get together representative groups of people. The list, actually -- the purpose of putting that list in the back of the book was to start that discussion going. And we do need to have a group of people that are credible in the society at large, accepted by large number of groups -- it's a political question. The important point, though, is that the political question involves very much material that has recently entered literate culture. Nobody argues about Lincoln and his log cabin, or George Washington and the cherry tree. So there is an area of fuzziness where -- MacNEIL: Things like your list includes Ferdinand Marcos, but it doesn't happen to include the Sandinistas. Prof. HIRSCH: That's right. Ms. ANGELOU: Nor does it include blues -- which is one of the great instruments (can't hear) black people into the world. Prof. HIRSCH: But you must say that the list -- the so called THE list, it just happens to be that provisional one, and most of the objections you've already raised don't exist in the other list, that is the list as it now stands. MacNEIL: Mr. Welsh wanted to make a point. Mr. WELSH: Every year I teach Maya Angelou's book, I Know Why the Cagebird Sings. Middle class kids, black and white, love it. But the kids that are poor and that cannot read well, even though they're acquainted with the background, Ms. Angelou, they cannot read your book. They have a great deal of difficulty with it. And I have to read it out loud to them, and then they love it. But I think that shows us something more than just this cultural list or some kind of background. These kids do have the background, but they cannot read and make sense of your wonderful book. MacNEIL: I'm afraid we'll have to leave it there. And thank you all for joining us. Obviously we've been going a long time. Prof. Hirsch, thank you. Maya Angelou in Raleigh, thank you. Dr. Coles at Boston, thank you, and Patrick Welsh. Cowboy Indian Allowance LEHRER: Finally tonight, a story about the CIA in South Dakota -- not the CIA of the Central Intelligence Agency, but the one of the Cowboys and Indian Alliance. They are ranchers and Sioux Indians who live in South Dakota's Black Hills. They've come together to fight a common enemy, the Honeywell Corporation, which plans a weapons testing site in an area known as Hell's Canyon. We have a report from Fred Sam Lazaro of Public Station KTCA, Minneapolis/St. Paul.

FRED SAM LAZARO: It was gold that first attracted outsiders to South Dakota's Black Hills a hundred years ago. The land until then had been the sole domain of the Sioux Indians. Today, most outsiders who come here are tourists, attracted by legend and history of towns like Hot Springs, where the architecture and the pace of life appear to have changed little since the turn of the century. It was the remoteness of this region that attracted the Honeywell Corporation here. Unsurprisingly, in an economically depressed area, the new corporate citizen is being welcome. UNIDENTIFIED MAN at meeting: We support the endeavor of Honeywell Corporation to establish their testing facility in Fall River County, South Dakota. Section 2: We feel future economic impact of having a corporation such as Honeywell in our area may attract other industries to our community. Section 3: We generally endorse the concept of a property owner being able to carry out any legal activities on their own land. Roll call please. [Roll call and all vote ''Yes. '']

LAZARO: The welcome makes it seem like a large factory with hundreds of jobs is coming to town. In fact, Honeywell's plans are much smaller and much more controversial. Honeywell has purchased 6,000 acres of South Dakota land for a facility like this one it owns in Elk River, Minnesota. The company plans to test so called improved conventional weapons, small and medium calibre shells tipped with spent uranium. Robert Mockenhaupt heads Honeywell's Defense Systems Division. ROBERT MOCKENHAUPT, Honeywell: Testing our improved conventional ammunition requires more space than we presently have at our test site here in Minnesota. We anticipate that we will employ about six permanent fulltime employees from the state of South Dakota, and we anticipate also that over the next few years, the employment at our test site will grow to about 25 people.

LAZARO: The number of jobs and the economic impact is small. But that doesn't dampen the enthusiasm for project supporters. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It may give me an opportunity, because I am a computer scientist, graduated with a Bachelor's Degree from Rapid City School and minor technology, and I may have an opportunity with them. UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I think the tourists will keep coming. It's not as if it's right here in the middle of Hot Springs. It's located far enough out of town, and I don't believe it's going to hurt the beauty of the hills in any way.

LAZARO: It's in the hills not far outside Hot Springs where tourism gives way to ranching that Honeywell's welcome becomes distinctly less embracing. Bruce Murdock is leading a fight to keep Honeywell from testing weapons in the area. The Murdocks, Bruce, Linda and two children, live in a ranch on 10,000 acres, adjacent to the Honeywell property. Along with other ranchers, the Murdocks turned down an offer by Honeywell to purchase their property. BRUCE MURDOCK, rancher: The only thing that I have in it is my life, and wanting to live in a clean place, pollution free, with neighbors who don't make noise, and that I don't have to worry about accidental things happening to me or my family or to my property.

LAZARO: Murdock and other ranchers near this area known as Hell's Canyon, worry about a disruption in their lifestyle, and they fear a decline in property values. They've joined with another group of Honeywell opponents who make their own claim to the canyon, the Oglala Sioux. They've formed what's being called the South Dakota C. I. A. , the Cowboy and Indian Alliance. CHARLOTTE BLACK ELK: The elk symbolizes the power of loving, the need to take only what you need only when you need it.

LAZARO: Indian scholar Charlotte Black Elk says Hell Canyon is of great religious significance to many Indian tribes. The stone etching, or pictograph, is located on Honeywell's property. It's one of several in the canyon, the Sioux estimate was carved 3500 years ago. Mr. MOCKENHAUPT: Our presence in South Dakota will fully respect the established heritage of that entire community, the entire Black Hills area.

LAZARO: Mockenhaupt says Honeywell will be a considerate neighbor in South Dakota. He says the lifestyle of both townspeople and ranchers will in no way be disrupted by the weapons test facility. Mr. MOCKENHAUPT: Also, the testing we'll be doing is with small and medium calibre ammunition, and the sound levels I would believe would not even go beyond the area that we presently own.

LAZARO: Local opponents, however, say the testing could expand to bigger weapons in the future. They point to Honeywell's ongoing effort to acquire neighboring national forest land. Honeywell says it simply wants the additional land for a sound buffer. While the company says it will comply with all laws, opponents say there are few local environmental laws and no zoning laws. As a result, Murdock says Honeywell's project isn't being subjected to the usual studies of its environmental impact. Mr. MURDOCK: Honeywell stated at the outset if they were required to do an environmental impact statement that they wouldn't be here. And we view that as an admission on Honeywell's part, because they weren't willing to deal with E. I. S. that there's something that they're trying to hide. Mr. MOCKENHAUPT: In the case of the test site in South Dakota, we have conducted environmental analyses. We do not believe that an environmental impact statement is required.

LAZARO: Honeywell says it has no problem if an environmental impact statement compiled, but the company says it will not, as opponents have demanded, hold up testing until the studies are completed. UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It's time that we organize so the movement can at least identify with an organization.

LAZARO: Honeywell's opponents meanwhile are planning for what they say could be a lengthy environmental lawsuit. Indian involvement in this so called Cowboy and Indian Alliance is based in large part on ancient religious beliefs. But Charlotte Black Elk says the most profound contribution by the Indians could be their knowledge of how to fight a lengthy lawsuit. Ms. BLACK ELK: The Indian community, I think, has had a lot more exposure to political processes, the legal processes, and to use of the media where many farmers and ranchers have just farmed and ranched.

LAZARO: In this, the land of Custer's last stand, an alliance between Indians and ranchers on the surface would seem improbable. But both sides say they are discovering they have something very fundamental in common, according to Bruce Murdock. Mr. MURDOCK: Ranchers traditionally view land as a resource to be protected, because that's where they make their living, rather than an ownership factor, where it's something to just solely use, destroy and make money from. And I think the Indians have that same philosophy.

LAZARO: Honeywell says it, too, can live by the same principles here in the Black Hills. Whether the company gets a chance to prove it will likely be decided by the federal courts. LEHRER: Since that report was completed, Honeywell announced it will delay weapons test for at least 60 days. MacNEIL: Once again, the main points in the news. Iran and Iraq attacked a total of seven ships in a major escalation of the Persian Gulf tanker war. The U. S. is reportedly pressing Iraq hard to cease its attacks. The teenage pilot from West Germany who landed in Red Square pleaded guilty in a Moscow Court to breaking Soviet laws, but said his mission was peace. The Dept. of Transportation issued directives to airlines to make monthly reports on such faults as flight delays and lost baggage. Good night, Jim. LEHRER: Good night, Robin. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.