Special of the week; Issue 3-1969

NDE are the national educational radio network presents special of the week from the Yale University series called Yale reports. Most of us a seven fascism is dead. But I was confident of the death of a German manifestation Germany's Third Reich ended with the defeat of Hitler's army and the dissolution of the National Socialist the Nazi party. At the present time the senior partner in West Germany's political grand coalition is the CDU the Christian Democratic Party BSP D or liberal social democratic party headed by Philip Brandt is also an important member of West Germany's grand coalition. Although these two parties receive a majority of votes in each election observers of West Germany's recent election viewed with alarm the growing number of votes received by the NPD THE NATION ALL Party of Germany headed by Adolph von Titan the NPD has resurrected some pre-war issues. For instance the restoration of the pre 1938 boundaries

of Germany. Does this growing strength of the NPD presage a new German threat to the rest of the world. Is there a viable neo-Nazi movement in West Germany today. Here to answer these questions is a visiting fellow of Yale's can psyllium on international and Area Studies professor notate holds the post of professor of modern history at the University of Marburg in West Germany. As one of the world's foremost authorities on fascism and Nazi ism Professor noti is author of several publications in the field. He is interviewed by James Rolleston an instructor in German. Mr. Rolston one of the more controversial points you make in your book is that fascism is can be considered a dead phenomenon and that it was a product of its era and in any form right wing forms today. They they can't be called fascist in the proper sense. Do you really think that in the light of more recent right wing developments in contrast to.

National Socialism is a purely drawn phenomenon. Fascism is a broader concept. If I say fascism is dead since 1945 I don't want to say that there are that there can be no longer any fascist or there can be no longer any fascist movements but only that it is dead as a world historical phenomenon a phenomenon that was the most important one in an era. In this sense I think fascism is dead and cannot be alive again. At least not in the sense I've understood it. That means as European national fascism between the two world wars and I indeed believe that all those things you may call fascist in bribes. Right you are called Precious.

That they are not much more than relics of the past and have no great importance. That may be surprising to you because there is so much interest in so contemporary events and I think you do not wholly agree with me. During the 1930s especially in England and France the statesman who headed the government did not believe in India I don't think anyone believed that Hitler would ever be as radical as ruthless as he in fact turned out to be. Was it inevitable that he would behave in the what seems now the predestined way that he did behave. Conquest racial persecution. Was there any event at the time such a firmness of will on the part of the Western powers. Was there any event that could have stopped his irresistible movement. The most terrible realities in national

socialist plane government. Where indeed prefigured in the early Hitler's thoughts and you can even demonstrate it with a high degree of probability. That does not exclude nature already. Let's. History is not identical with the growing of a tree and there they are aware not some other ways open to him. But I think that in the last regards he would have come to the war and to the persecution of the Jews. In every case he wanted to have another war than he had. He writes for certain time. Had ideas of forcing Jews to immigration and being content with

it possibly. But far more than in the case of Mussolini the end was included in the beginnings as I believe it is a fact is it not that many of the members of German right wing movements are disappointed members of Hitler's party. Have they changed in any sense. It is clear that you cannot make a general pronouncement in this point. You cannot look in every man's heart and soul. I should like to see the hard core of National Socialists did not change basically because people determined by a sudden your lot if you are dodgy remain in it and in the rarest cases leave it. But the great mass of those people who are members of the National Socialist

Party. The situation is another one. Nine thousand nine hundred forty five was such a good test trophy for dropping me that indeed most of the form of heroes of Hitler. Separated themselves from their former beliefs. And most of them went into Democratic parties in all of our bodies. There are many people that were former members of the of the Knesset and national socialist party and I think one can or did use from this fact that these bodies have too many national socialists or are in the danger of becoming national socialists. To all these people before becoming a national national socialist in the thirties had been for the most part members of the

National People's Party of the send up body and so on. It's most probable that they became again what they had been that they tried to forget this national socialist Internet so bad. Concerning the hardcore of former nation socialists it's another thing. But after the war hardly one of them came into an important position in Germany. They were taught the margin of the society remained there. After forty eight forty nine nine when assault and liberty of expression was again prevailing in Germany they tried to do it to unite again. They had a sudden success in the beginning of the German rearmament with the Constitution of the socialist empire party that

indeed had many similarities with the National Socialist Party and that above all tried to constitute a sort of militia a sort of party army with broader not brownshirts but some sort of shouts and thus I say to reconstitute an army militia has never again be made in Germany. This so that is one of the main differences. Between the development before 33 and the development now we have no party militias in Germany and I think that's a very essential feature. Pick up a point that you mentioned earlier. Just then you said that the those who were not members of the hardcore would very likely simply forget the National Socialist experience and I was thinking of of the controversial appointment of her teasing as German chancellor. Now as a young man

he was a member of the party and darkness not a very convinced member. But we in the West perhaps melodramatically have the feeling that 12 years of such intensive propaganda are bound to leave a permanent mark on a man. In what sense can you forget such an experience. I think I thought I said they tried to forget they tried to forget. Whether they succeed in doing so that's another question. But what concerns me is the Keys you know for example he was old enough before 33 to have certain convictions. He was a Catholic a liberal Catholic. He had this background. After 45 he was again able to behave as a liberal Catholic. How strong this mom of 12 years of propaganda has been. Cannot

be said. But it is certain that there is a counter effect. That after the disastrous end of this regime the obvious it was that people was inclined to believe that all propaganda was slogans of National Socialism had been perfectly fine ass in the early sixties I think not so much recently there were in fact anti-Semitic incidents again in Germany. Do you think these have any significance. I don't think so. Yeah I think these are where some deeds of the so-called lunatic fringe. They had no import no real importance at all. Everybody who has ever seen a Popular Movement of you know phobia and National Socialist

anti-Semitism had these features to to a certain degree before in 1933. Everybody was seen that knows that these these incidents where are the result of. Some perfectly isolated people. How prominent Do you think anti-Semitism is in fascist ideology. I do not think that anti-Semitism as such is sufficient to define fascism. I think anti-Semitism is a matter of fascism and it will remain longer then fascism remains. It is too broad a concept to be sufficient for the different definition of fascism. But it is perhaps a necessary ingredient an ingredient that can be traced even in the in

the early history of tarrying fascism where there are so anti-Semitic overtones or undertones already. And therefore I think it least potentially there will be anti-Semitism in every fascist movement but not every sort of anti-Semitism is in itself fascist. The leader of the German right wing movement as it is today are often tarred in what kind of a person is he and what forces does he represent if any. Out of 1000. As away from his time as from his background Familia and so on. So it really is not play billion national socialist but an aristocratic drum nationalist that's to say he belongs to those allies of National Socialism who afterwards had some

difficulties with National Socialists. And it is this group he represents. And I do not think that he has much similarity with I don't feel as though having the same play now. Yes but he surely is more a man of our age is he not in that he is. He comes off well in public relations handouts and does he not get on well with the industrialists. Not I said. Not the way Hitler did because Hitler swayed them by his personality but does not he's not from Todd and basically a person who could appeal to the kind of financial backers that a party would need. As much as I know. The nostril is much too cautious people then to help the NPD. They

help protect you and to a certain degree even the SBT. But they do not have and they would be mad. If they would have after this first experience was National Socialists the NPD they certainly have some people who give them money. But these are not the great US who are far too cautious to do that. What kind of a program does the NPD put forward. Does it have any possibility of attracting greater numbers. Now that's a great question. Today I for my boss convinced that part of this program that program that perhaps comes nearer to a National Socialist program. That this program doesn't appear to Germans. Of today because it is a program perfectly turnaround to

the past where the concept of construction of the riot and they understand underwriting not Drumley in the front yards of 937 What's the official politics of the government. But the riots in its historic crêpe that means that for example the Sudetenland and even I was US floor ain had to be integrated into the writing. These are romantic concepts that practically nobody in Germany takes years. And I think that it is not this part of their programme that makes them attractive to certain amount of people. Firstly they crack those who find no other voice to add the protest. Because in John new we have at least since the establishment of the Grand Coalition Coalition. We have a very stable political situation

and people who want to protest do not do not see many possibilities so many turn to the NPT. And this is the point now. Where is until now. People who are tiered to the entity where in themselves a certain coalition of former hardcore National Socialists of far form and normal nationalists of people with neutralised tendencies which is very important because this is the predecessor of the NPT the dry rice but-I Empire party not socialist rice but I but rice but I was pronounced Li not realistic party which repaired it. The Western treaties and wanted to be a country

free from all sorts of alliances and the NPT has taken over some sorts of this. Some parts of this neutral is there for former National Socialists former normal nationalists not realists. Friends of Russia even they all together form this party. And it was not a bloc It was not a simple unity. The NBA now is now beginning to face the real issues and to become a little bit more united than it was and this new issue that it faces and that may give this body a new strength. Is doubtless the emergence of a new leftist tensors in Germany.

As all over the world. And only from this point on they are no longer looking towards the past but looking toward the present phenomenon. And one does know exactly what the consequences will be but I am certain if at any time the German right wing party will be strong again. It will be only because it Fran's response to present dangers of what is sensed as dangerous and not as a remembrance is a purely meant remembrance of the past. Therefore it depends to a great extent from the development of these new leftist tendencies what the NPD will be will become. This relationship between the possible success of the new right party and the emerging new left in Germany. You said earlier that

the the dream of the right to been somewhat shattered by the Second World War. Is it anyone by any means so certain that the right would be more successful than the left in any new confrontation I don't think so. In both parts there are new elements of strength and you elements of weakness. The left no longer or in the moment has not the help of the so-called masses. But it draws its strength from exactly that part of the population that source you a lot. Logically speaking was of big help for National Socialism. That's the academic world especially the students. That's a new situation. On the other hand this extreme

right has not the backing by industrialists and I love powerful people that National Socialism had for some time. At least not at this moment. Because there seems to be no necessity. But well in this confrontation they're left with have the short hand will be defeated with the same regularity as the left has been defeated in Europe. After nine thousand nine hundred twenty. Here I'm not sure but generally speaking I would like to see that even now. In Western societies the victory of a new extreme right seems to me not only in Germany but in other societies too. More probably more probable then a victory of the new extreme left.

Yeah but you also said that you have said in your book certainly that Germany is an ideological country rather than a pragmatic one. How is the new right to gain a new ideology. Does not the New Left have a much better prospect then you're right it will have if you are totally in the moment when it has taken over essential features of the New Left. That's the thing. Same thing what happened in Germany and in Italy between the two world wars. It's fundamentally characteristic for fascism. What kind of measures is not a simple right wing movement but a right wing movement that has been strengthened by the acceptance of Saudi leftist features. And only if the new ride will not from the New Left. Probably it will become strong enough to go into this confrontation with the hope of success.

What kind of elements do you think they will extract from you left doctrines. Especially the practical the practical elements thoughts of demonstrations sorts of appeal to the public and so on. I think not so much if you're logical if your logical things but the practical methods of political fighting. Such things as street demonstrations. How do you think the common person the worker in German in Germany today how does he react to the spectacle of police beating up students. I mean in this country it's well-known that they seem somewhat to favor the police at this time with that reaction but the same in Germany has it been the same in Berlin for example generally speaking I'd like to see that the majority of German population still. Lives very much at all and quite

therefore they are only smaller portions of the population. Indignant about students being beaten by the police. But on the other hand I don't think there was so much police Patel 18 around me. And what's too high a degree for is into the eyes. Is the violence and the rioting the occasional violence and rioting of the students themselves. And I believe that the reaction of demanding adda mostly from the Cubans not from the police will be the stronger one in Germany. We come then to the. The question of what this extremely strong central government in Germany will do in the face

of these disorders Surely it is stronger than any government in the time of the Weimar Republic will it not be able to re impose order without the kind of breakdown into street fighting that occurred at that time. It certainly would be if it wants to do this. The government is strong in a certain sense. It has a great majority in parliament. It is formed by the two by far the most powerful parties in Germany but it is a weak and other regards and I think weaker than many governments of the Weimar Republic. Nevertheless it will be much will depend on the question whether governments will do what every government is destined to do to secure public order. There's no government that doesn't want to and that must

not do this. Whether it is able to do it all with a leg or a seeming lack of firmness in this respect we'll call it. So often forces from the society that are going to reform themselves and they don't develop and develop your laundry from this point of view their government does not do its duty and that one must have one. And this in all cases is the beginning of a real fascist movements by the militias. They pretend to help people against lawlessness and disorder and in

many cases this is a demand that it has much appeal to great masses of of the population and I think it would not be a riot to believe that these precious Party militias in the beginning of the 20s wear nothing but gangs. They had widespread sympathies under the population. And the question today is as it seems to me whether a situation like this with our eyes again on is it not perhaps more likely given the relative prosperity of Germany that the the new realignments of political forces will take place within the system. Is it not perhaps more likely that if no wonder whatever becomes increasingly endangered that a right wing section that a say France was of Strauss and his Bavarian group it's not likely that this section of

the present government might detach itself and form a coalition with the national Democrats this is a possibility or just a fantasy. I should say it would be a possibility without national socialism as National Socialism has proceeded. I think there is no possibility of such a coalition because the outcry in the log would be so powerful that no drug government could do with this. Ernst know a fellow of Yale's console him on international and area studies and an authority on fascism Naziism interviewed by James Rolleston instructor in German scripts for these programs are available without charge by writing 1773 station New Haven Connecticut 0 6 5 2 0. Any RS special of the week. Thanks Yale University for the recording of the program from its series called Yale reports. This is

our the national educational radio network.