New aspects of language; Teaching Teachers of Foreign Langua

New aspects of language using a language is so much a part of our everyday lives that we do not realize just how complex an activity it is. Linguistics is the science responsible for investigating this activity we take so much for granted. During this series some of the tools and methods used by linguists to study the complexities of language will be demonstrated. The series is prepared and narrated by Dr. Frankel associate professor of English and Linguistics at George Peabody college for teachers. Continuing with a focus on Applied Linguistics Mrs Sarah W. Whitten an assistant professor of modern languages at George Peabody college for teachers. Ray Ferrante an instructor in the German department at Vanderbilt University and John Welker associate professor of French at Austin Peay State University in Clarksville Tennessee joined Dr. Frankel to discuss teaching teachers of foreign language. Today we are going into another program of Applied Linguistics. Here

is today we are treating the question what does the linguist contributed to the teaching of the teaches of foreign languages. To help me I have three companies in funding which teaches here. Start the discussion in just a moment. You. More than. That. If you go up there and I learned he was right about things I think I mean. I think he misstated the manpower and he said he listening and be reading. This right now. If. YOU'RE GAY WHY NOT youth it that language is basically something that he communicated orally if there is a an expression a kind man and an association. Going to this is making about like this that you begin with that and if I

find it written that. Then we can read it in your car. But. If. You did you get this thing another reason why you have left me feeling like a real man like. You know me like. You know. Out. There. Do you know. This is a very important aspect that has come up in this discussion just now.

People who have worked on the study of the theory of language teaching have stressed for a long time that speaking as primary. Who is the he was mentioned a number of times in this discussion. Robert who has written a book called language teaching and that was the text of this kind I see it well he's really indeed one of the first people to stress that point so strongly. I mean he's dean of linguistics at Georgetown That's right yes I would like to hear something from your own experience. Rima has your experience born this contention out that speaking leads into reading but the other way around. It's not so true. I believe so I can't say I recall my own experience in Germany when this was my first contact with the language and you know I've had French in undergraduate school being in the culture and listening I could discern better the sounds. And

then it made it easier for me to be able to read the language. So I felt that I although it was rigorous in the beginning you know to attend a home and not know what they were spinning about. I heard that kind of basic quality of the language. Interesting to know all of this happened to you before you became a linguist. That's true. So you had no idea about the theory behind that you simply experienced it. That's correct and now how are you applying that in your own classroom for instance ask Jon here how do you apply this principle in your own classroom. Well I think I might begin by referring to the 18th century. Special education and that starts with the premise that they should be taught in the natural way. Yeah one of my main reasons for presenting the learning listening you know speaking the aural aspect of the language

before we go to the writing the reading. Is that this is the natural process of man if you look at man's history or language well in advance of any of the more sophisticated learning of speaking and writing. So you say it's a natural way of going about it. Yes the young native language is a way that is taught. Although I think we know that the adult doesn't vote except in the way in which a child but that of course the differences. Yes I mean what I interject when we speak about language teaching now we have to. Define the classroom situation. Yeah in the cultural situation here and the classroom situation at once when a teacher enters We have an image of the student where she has to deal with outside of let's say listening to the language. Yes they are also the student or the person in his natural learning process outside of class learns and strangled by stimulus response and therefore in class we try to

offer the same as other senators for which it is a natural response. Then he is using language in a more natural way not less academic way even an academic kind of course getting on somewhat dangerous ground him and to start to discuss the question as stimulus response really the basis for language learning. Do you have any idea as to what your students do with that when they go out and do their own classrooms. Do they apply that in a fashion which proved profitable. I think they didn't. Now this is the this is the main. Way that they go about teaching now they give the conversation and Malouda the whole process SUCCESS from each of the teachers and then they do that what they have been told as a little annoying. Yeah but I have the reversed experience to get a gentleman here that first year I learned French by reading and writing and rules of grammar and translating. And then when I went into into a foreign situation I would.

I am so long because I could not speak and it's been very difficult for me to are the same experience that from the other hand the other hand there and I know have it's very disappointing as the other. Well thank you that is very good and really my day will be better than the year. We. Then Monday. You happy. Wow me but then is this the one that happened and then you hacked my right to your patent Grail pick out that problem in there and work out the route. MAKE IT REAL around them. Work out there. And get that pattern and head. And.

Then. When I'm going to buy I'm sure you will. Funders. Funny that you are now in it but. You know. Way. Round you know I will play it right though you think I have now nearly the route of the router that you need to develop a head but I'll go. With it here. Yesterday. You're probably. Right. They're here for you right. Was a linguist. This is one of the most interesting aspects of the part of the discussion we have just been listening to from the class situation. There was a question of patterns that to question both of which we could discuss the rest of the tell you if you want to answer one as the problem of patents on all

levels you brought that out very forcefully. So I use that patent drugs and from the logical level and of course the patent drugs and other levels too. And they cannot be neglected further the question of how informative are patent. Pattern drills What do they really do. How good are they. Well what would you say John to the general effectiveness of handouts. Yes well I think that the use of language is very effective to begin with. Change is a lot of the older method of learning and a gambler out of context. Yes in the old days we were called a lexical items just one word after another word but now we put those words in context in the natural string of words as it would be said by the speaker of the language in kind acts in kind of concatenation. The expressions that we need to patterns that we need as the student in the class

indicated we memorize conversations and not isolate words. Yes what about you. Very well thank you for that if I haven't had the experience of teaching the drills as I've seen the newer texts. Yeah I feel that they are valuable because I think they would seat firmly in the students mind those. Aspects of phonology that they should learn and the grammatical structure of the sentence. But in German I think we when we deal with grammar. I haven't had time yet opportunity to work with you. I wonder whether we quit for a moment just discuss the respective Ledet of the parent practice approach towards mimicry memory approach are you familiar with this dichotomy. One school is saying that you should drill certain paths and so that they become so familiar that at a later

time you need them in a situation you will come out with them naturally. The other method of saying that you should drill the situational dialogues so that you can speak when ever you put in a certain situation and then that the same sentences as different kind of combinations will serve you. When you find yourself in other situations that the patterns are then acquired automatically by the number of sentences which you have to produce in a conversation and healing the context. Most teachers I guess will combine the two but I would like to have your idea on that but he said yes indeed I think we combine the two. Appreciate it Mr.. Although we don't for the most part teach you grammar per se but in learning the language through its natural patterns they are learning the grammar. If we want to take an approach by grammatical approach later it's sort of like all bleat that we are able to learn grammar by observing the natural behavior language

patterns. I would like to ask another question here about the interrelationships of the patterns of course we can teach patterns individual pad and so let's say individual senses patterns that say sentences which consist only of a main clauses and consists of the main goals and ones of all of those clauses and question the negatives we can drill these individually but they should also have some kind of interrelationship. How do you feel about that and do you feel in any way that as a transformation the method has really contributed to that I feel very strongly about that. But I wonder how you feel that is not a very important contribution to contribution of transformation to language learning. Never. Well again here I think and structure with I'm not so sure about the French But you know the structure of the German You know I think the question is raised in my class in fact was raised the other day that do the people really think this way. Yeah and

so I wonder if this is not a question raised for an objection to learning the grammar. In that case I don't have an answer as to just how we should approach it. But they are they are being drilled on the structure and they know the inner relationships and certainly. Them and learning the language. Sara say something I think that what you mean is that that the material should be graded so that if you have a pattern in in one lesson and then you have another parent another lesson that that they should know what Wasn't know this knowing the relationship of the first one out until the second Saturn. Yes and also they should always know in paragraph is exactly what the point is the first thing to do in teaching a pattern is to make clear what the problem is and I think that there's been a lot of points against parents because they say the students just repeating and they don't know what they're doing yet. Well if this is so is the teacher's Stout Yes she must make clear what the what this pattern I think is valuable and what I mean and then after they've

done it she must ask the students what they have been doing yes. And it must have some relationship with what went before and what about class and graded not the sense of the difficulty but in the sense of being interrelated. Yes and it has been one of the problems in part and drilling that teachers who are not entirely familiar whether talking Haddon in order to grow let's say vocabulary whereas vocabulary study a problem which is being treated in a different unit. Yeah. Professor we're not but I was a good point because the student in a sense is learning without awareness. He takes these drugs although I mean he may object. Two of them later on and his actual use of the language that he realizes that oh yes I have this. The structure is there in fact an even believe in memory in memory numbers I should say if you are learning the pattern and I get a real stereo one I think is very much superior as I say I think that student shouldn't should always know what you're saying Well and how far this leads up to correctness we still see in the next section of

your memory 9 better than I. Read you. This is in me and then you hear me. That's right. He went. Out and then and current that now they. Are and are at any given time. Away I'll be here. Or. I get one. Yeah I think we have been hearing him I can't think whether he would be. There. You think you know he's like. You know that. You are here with us

thinking about. Where I get that he had gotten up. Out with. One of the not that well. Here yet. But what I would love to talk about that you know in the beginning I get bored with the group and playing with what would be a horse. So you know it is good to do this with you. Take anything you. Want to know when you. Get home. You know you did exactly. Oh. Well here we are confronted

with a whole host of questions that you can discuss or let's get going. I hope the material is clear enough. The first is obviously the question which has been asked ever since but ending with you came into being. Do linguists have spent what you say about that. Well yes they are they have standards I think in setting down the. Phonology of the language. They have a phonetic funny pattern which of course the linguist also realize is an approximation. Yes. And we try to teach this in the classroom. And so that the student would have an index to the correct sounds and so he would probably have to make adjustments once he was in the culture. Yes but we can I think use some of these fanatics as a language teacher to teach the student who's having particular difficulty. I mean this thing you correct you're saying that you would even teach a sound system

which is not really used by anybody but which is close enough to most types of speech so that an actual conversation with a native speaker student could adapt without any difficulty. Yes I believe so it wouldn't it would be an optimum form. And this is the best we can do. You know actually we can't teach dialects because of course this would be very problematic. In fact a student once asked me in English for foreign students classes know what kind of English should I study. I said well it doesn't depend on the type of English it depends on the type of people you want to talk to if you want to go to a fishing village somewhere along the coast. Being anthropological study your best pick their language because if you speak Oxford English they will laugh you out of their village after a day but you have to say on that and I certainly agree with you. First it seems to me that in the language courses we do teach the correct language as it is taught by as is spoken by cultivated people. Now this doesn't mean that we set

that as a standard and your question was do we know that the league has set a standard. You don't see the language as setting a standard. You know there are many of the questions on the question was linguists have always been accused of not having stand that thought I was reading instead of having no standards and the question was Don't they do have standards but that you value them differently from the traditional you know from area. Yes I think in the classroom I think we teach a natural language. I could image language exclusively here you know which one that would be spoken by the majority of educated people. I think we should make a strong point you about one statement made by one of the students. She said we're not supposed to teach words correctly about supposed to teach what the people speak. And this is of course mixing old tradition a misconception with the modern linguistic statement. In fact what had in mind was whatever the people speak is correct and that's what we should teach in accordance with the purpose of learning that particular language and correctness and the grammatical sense of the tradition can

Marion is in this connection immaterial whether she make these two. Let me go to the other point which came up in this particular. I would like to add. Yeah OK so you have into this that I think this is one of the delights of learning the language and that when a person goes into the culture that he does make errors and pronouncing and that this is a point of humor and one of invitation to learn the language. So I look forward to it because this shows that we do have the capability of making these sounds and we can make adjustments and so on. In fact you directed my next question that I wanted to say is it really true that in the classroom you strive towards educating native speakers but is your first purpose to reach that level of transition which is native or native like before you do anything else. Is that rational approach. I'm not sure would you say that you repeat the second point as it is a rational approach to try to arrive at

native pronunciation a native like translation before you do anything else with the language. So I will not teach your grandmother not let you speak any thing any practices any dialogues before you have a native like pronunciation. It seems to me that would hold you down on a small concept of language and that you would regard the student's progress. I think you're perfectly right. It seems to me the better to go on and as we said before learn the conversational dialog and then improve problems around in pronunciation you can work on those because much of it they can sign without any difficulty much and of course the question is What do you pronounce if you don't have dialogue to pronounce that right. And what you were just saying you're left to the next question really. Thank you for being so cross. You said certain things they can pronounce without difficulty. Yes exactly that's the point of the contrast of analysis which we take at the basis of our teaching process some of the sounds are of course the same as in your native language and it makes no sense to drill them which are the most difficult songs to teach you find. And personally I find the

ones which are close to the native ones but not exactly the same and more difficult to teach than the ones which are entirely strange. But I don't know I think in French the nasal septum really think so. Maybe you think that the grand X cuti. Yes maybe that would be distinguished. Yes no I think not only should we talk about isolating as sound as a particular name but because difficulties in teaching acceptable good standard pregnancy action is the mode of pronunciation international rhythm. Well yes but also French for example is a language where greater emphasis is placed on the value of ours and the consonants are played way down in articulation consonants are rather. So we use our same speech pattern when we speak any language. So what you're saying is it's not just a matter of pronouncing individual sounds but it takes much

more distribution of us of different ways of putting things together or run them together. And of course as you are saying how the intonation and rhythm and all that the so-called super segmental phonemes are of course as great an importance as the segmented ones and how would you go about teaching for instance or let's say a german your team German Russian German initial German. So there's no such sound in English. But of course because of English can produce it they do it all the time about like hats. I find that very easy because I just put two units of. The sounds that we have in English for example the word fits. Yeah and they haven't already in the language although it hasn't been aware as an onset. So this is talks about I think the difficulty here is more in the blotto area where they have to pronounce the viewer

are which is somewhat similar to the French aria and perhaps the phonemic transcription for XX of the in-box which is difficult for us. But I think they can approximate it very easily I think they don't have as many problems they might. And Fred you have little difficulty with the ones that are distribution of the different you find more difficulty with the ones which are qualitative. They're different. Yes I would say so. OK well let's go to the next question. Here. Mark. You know what. Well now you know knowing. That. You know if. There's. Anything you feel like you.

When you. Enter. And. You really. Think you're. Yeah. You. Will be somewhat pretentious to discuss the question of transcribing about the tunes we have left. However we had an interesting statement here and we heard a girl who talked about her own experience so that we have both sides of the questions despite the fact that the quality and the people the closer I was wasn't perhaps perfect I think it gives us a basic for some short discussion.

How about applying transcription and classroom situations for foreign languages for him. Trying transcription in order to teach CSM. Well I try to do this in my own classes by giving vocabulary tests and having them write then and count this as a part of the correct answer so that they will play closer attention to transcribing. We I don't can't take a separate drill for this because this course would take up too much time. But this is the way I can drill on it by just giving vocabulary isn't a danger when you use transcribing that as a teacher particularly young when you assume the moment you transcribe the student automatically be ever so previews of it to say about that. I think there may be some danger that I do believe however that at the time when a student has gone to a high school they have developed you know rigidity shall we say in their language behavior that they are so I oriented the rig helps them a great deal

and if it does how to use it you know really touching a hip on an extremely important point and then the individual learning that some years ago we assume that every student would learn through the years because we had decided that the speaking was primary. There are indeed some students I already entered and may need that. Well there's of course no end to the questions can be asked about that that can go could go on. Mrs Sarah W. Whitman assistant professor of modern language at George people at a college for teachers. An instructor in the German department at Vanderbilt University and John Walker associate professor of French at Austin Peay State University in Clarksville Tennessee have joined Dr. Frankel to discuss teaching teachers of foreign

language in the classroom discussions were recorded during a class of materials and methods in teaching foreign language at George Peabody college for teachers. The topic for next week is teaching English as a foreign language. New aspects of languages prepared and narrated by Dr. Frankel an associate professor of English and Linguistics at George Peabody college for teachers and is produced in the studios of WP. This is Richard Waddell speaking. This program was distributed by the national educational radio network.