Directions in children's literature; 11

Directions in children's literature Riverside radio WRVO in New York City presents the eleventh program of his second series with Richard Lewis Byrd and teacher and other authorities in the field of children's literature. At this time Mr. Hughes has guests on my abdomen. Jerry Wilson and right in the second part of a discussion on headstart and the teaching of language. This is Richard Lois and we are continuing our program on headstart and language with my guest. And this is my Appleman who is early childhood consultant for the NYU headstart in-service training program. Jerry Wilson who is a field advisor for the New York City headstart and Ann Wright who is presently director of the Westside community nursery school. Well we left off last week with a floating question. It was a question that was asked but we didn't answer it. Basically the question was. What are we to do about the

contradiction within the definition of Head Start which says that we train children we get children into the mainstream of white middle class education so that they can survive within the white middle class education as well as attempt to preserve the natural cultural ideas and manner of speech and conditioning of children who have been termed disadvantaged. It seems to me that there is a very serious contradiction here. And if it isn't a contradiction it's a matter of balance. And how do we obtain this balance between preserving On the one hand and indoctrinating initiating acclimating our children into a cultural system which basically to be quite honest I think suppresses the disadvantaged child in terms of cultural behavior. I'd like to perhaps throw the question at first to you Jerry.

It's the if you have any ideas how either we can obliterate the contradiction or find the balance. I think that one of the things that we have to do today is to deal with the fact that the learning curve of children and ghetto communities begins to go down at their grade. I don't think that we as preschool educators have really been willing to face this when we have supported early childhood programs. Those of us who have faced it have had quite a fight on our hands. It's a problem for me because I like to feel that I understand the contradiction and I am not sure I have any answers. I have a couple there.

I think another thing that we have to do is to really understand the function of a school in any society which is to preserve the culture of the made majority group. And I would support what you are saying that we do not want to in a sense make room for many minority groups in this country. And that when children go to school they are helped to negate that which their background is. It disturbs me very greatly as I go from one preschool classroom to another whether it's Head Start or private nurseries or public schools that there are not books that show black children and Puerto Rican children. I think this

is a small start. In terms of dealing with the frustrations of a Head Start child and his parent when they go to public school one of the answers has to be that we help parents to begin to raise some very serious and strong questions when they go to public school. Parents in the programs I work with are very concerned about their kids because they know what happens to their children when they go to public school. I think that one of the things we as educators don't understand clearly enough is that the poorer person runts his and her child educated I haven't met one that doesn't. And I think that's a different from those two parents not wanting their child to go to a public school because he knows what will happen to him.

My do you have any thoughts on the whole question. Well Jerry said so many things and I've been you know trying to think along but perhaps I can pick up on one of the things you said at the beginning that the learning curve of poor black children tends to go down at the third grade and I think this is very significant in terms of the kind of experiences that they have that connect with the learning expected of third grade and I think it's primarily a reading that you may be talking about at least that's the tests show that disadvantaged so-called children tend to be poor readers. Right. You know first and second grade but at third grade it really begins to dip. Now I think that one of the reasons for that dip is the fact that the children don't have the necessary experiences in terms of getting to know their world their environment. What ever it

may be whatever they may live but learning to look and learn from their own personal experiences and to think and to observe and to have a frame of reference so that when they begin to read the reading can be meaningful because the other half of that is that the stuff that they're given to read doesn't relate to their life at all therefore it couldn't possibly be meaningful but I think their experiences could be enraged not only in terms of you know so-called social studies and well what they see but in science experiences are. Anything that goes on right from the very very first experience in school is sort of a years old four years old five six seven and possibly there and with books that really make contact with the children they're reading. They would be motivated to read they would want to read. They would know what it's about and it could be could become pleasurable and more meaningful.

Yes. You're you know something. Yes I have two things I would like to say because I think I would like to disagree slightly with my colleague. Yes I'd like to give two illustrations. The first has to do with a five year old child that I know who lives in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. A 5 year old black child whose father is a dentist and whose mother is a teacher he is attending a private nursery school in Philadelphia. The parents are upwardly mobile. Exhibit all the cultural values of this society. The teachers having a great deal of difficulty with the young child. And in a conference between the mother and the teacher the teacher said that she felt that the young boy needed to be read to more at home. The mother unfortunately because of some problems a lot having to do with

how the society has treated her didn't really know how to deal with that comment from the teacher because she has been reading to the child for a long long time. In a second conference and this has to do with my comment about the kinds of experiences that that my poor black children have. She told the mother that she felt that the child needed a great many more enriching experiences has traveled to dental meanings with the father from one city to another they have taken a great many trips and I think that has to do with the fact that this teacher has a what I would call a racial prejudice in terms of her expectation of the child and when the mother talked about it with me you know the little boy said she never calls on me in

class. She never calls on me in class and I would submit that there are ways that teachers have a phrasing out youngsters that it is directly related to what they think the youngsters can do. I would also say that from New York City Chicago Detroit there are many poor black children who get on the bus at the end of June and take long trips. To the south to visit their families. Anyone who knows about what goes on in the ghetto knows of trips organized by community people to raise money often for themselves because they don't have jobs in this kind of thing. Trips to Canada trips all over the place. I say that we don't know enough about what kinds of experiences poor kids have. I think motivation is a relative term in that we've got to find new ways to use it. The black child in this country the

Mexican-American this country cannot have the same motivation that a middle class white child has because there is not the same place in the Society for the black adult or the Mexican-American adult or the Indian American at all. And I think I'm not talking today so much about solutions because I don't think we really dealt with the problem as educated. Mark you write some things how very briefly I do agree very much with the last thing you said in terms of the fact in terms of motivation and that children know that they don't have a place in the society when they grow up. Therefore the whole idea of being motivated to learn step by step is a very very different one than you know for the middle class child. I absolutely agree. I don't agree really quite with what you said in terms of experiences because I think you know as an educator and that is not just true for

poor black children it's equally true for very rich white children or any children with who are adults be it parents or teachers don't interact or communicate at their level. Just been being taken on a trip. It can be. Being dragged around to the supermarket or be going back and forth to Puerto Rico or compensating daddy to a conference doesn't need to be in a rich experience for the child. It can be but it doesn't have to be and I think that sure what I said you know was a generalized statement and clothes many many white children. I've taught some of them myself and I know it and the same holds true for their reading problems that develop later also because they're pushed. And talk to too much and read too too much and they then get blocks about it. But I do think that some of it is true and that a

creative Head Start teacher can take her children right there in her ghetto part of town without and I don't mean taking trips to the zoo or to the circus or to the aquarium totally unrelated to these children's lives but taking trips around the neighborhood collecting some stones bringing taking the things children bring to school taking things from their life and building a curriculum around it accepting it extending it and teaching from it. That's not found too often on foot. Then what you're talking about my is a new definition of good teaching that results in good learning. I agree and I think that that is a different problem from the problem that we're discussing now. You're talking about making it possible for all people in this country a good education. That I think has to be done must be

done. You know if we're going to survive. But in terms of the disadvantaged child and his experiences I think that we have to recognize the fact the poor Irish kids when they were way down on the rung of the ladder did not have these kinds of programs planned for him and his family. Yet he was able to learn and whether or not he had good learning. It isn't love or hope question. The poor Jewish family had the same experiences the children did not have the kind of travel expert experiences and all of this other business that we had been doing for in our patronizing way poor people in this country that I submit is a different problem although related point from what we are really talking about. Because the

employment rate for the Irish immigrant who is no longer an immigrant the person of virus extraction in this country. The Dutch person who settled in Wisconsin who used to be called the Dutchman he now has a place and I'm saying that these are two different problems though they are very much related and I think you possess what I think it's again and bringing up a third thing. Maybe we need change of air. But our battle hime came last year to to speak for our school. I'm just delighted me by saying he felt nursery school should be fun. It should be a place of joyous experiences for children which is not something you hear very much nowadays but I have a feeling if if this was this should be the purpose of a nursery school and this this would solve a lot of problems in a sense. It seems to me that in just looking at what we've said in the last 10 minutes or so that the whole problem communication of the adult

to the child particularly in the nursery school and in more particularly the headstart situation is a very serious one in fact I would say it's almost more important than the communication between the child and the adult. As far as what they say to us the problem seems to be that because we reflect we the adults reflect any number of social conditioning that what we say to the child what we condition the child to in a sense is often what we are terming the inadequacy of his communication or his proficiency at communication. And I'd like if I if we can to to go back to this whole problem of the nonverbal child since it seems to me that the whole concept of Head Start is in some ways dealing with the problem of the non-verbal child. In our last program we did define what the non-verbal child was but we didn't get into the whole problem of how do we deal with the nonverbal child. What are some of the

means by which we can make that child verbal. And I will caution us by saying that in our discussion I think some of the things that have come out is that. Are we conditioning the child to be verbal in a white middle class society or are we conditioning the child to be verbal within the context of his own society. So I'd like to throw the question out with this caution as well as this thought as well. And I wonder if we could start with you in terms of what sort of work have you found that works very well in getting children to be verbal. In our nursery school we have a cooperative program which means that children's parents can afford to pay tuition combined with a head start program. And a lot of people want to know if we have separate curriculums in the same classroom for the different children. And I always feel slightly amazed at such a question because of course we don't we offer them a rich variety of materials and the freedom to use them as they want and this is I think the basis of communication all children enjoy painting

and making beautiful pictures or playing in the dark corner getting dressed up cooking things and they start talking to each other and and they are communicating and one way or another through materials or verbal way through songs or making up songs to each other you know. And you play it by ear when you feel it's the time to see if they will communicate with you on the same way they're communicating with your friends you move in sometimes they're ready and sometimes they're not. And they may they may communicate by making you a picture and handing it to you suddenly. And that is their expression. Saying that they're starting to trust you and soon they will talk to you when they feel like news. I like what you said at the end you know because obviously I can see you accepting the picture and perhaps commenting on it but it's most likely not saying what good you draw because as exact you know this is not because a child is asking for he is communicating. And very often we you

know teachers tend to respond in a way which forces the child into a sort of level of communication for which he is not ready. But before that when you were just describing the children talking to each other and enjoying materials and in a very informal relaxed way kind of communicating to each other I think you hit on something terribly important at least to me because I feel that you know out of four children who on their own are at least in school that say don't talk very much. The way to get them to talk more and I'm now assuming that we agree that perhaps this is a necessary thing. For them to do if they're going to go into school we have to give them something to talk about something that's close to their own experience something that's real meaningful something that they have

done that taste of you know touched smelled whatever look that something that really relates to their own firsthand experience because all children learn this way not just nursery age but probably until much later on. And I think I would like to give you one anecdote which was so terribly significant to me. I taught headstart in the summer of 65. And there was one little child in that group who never spoke at all. He was perfectly pleasant and seemed happy and participated but he absolutely wouldn't speak to the teachers. He spoke to the children and to his siblings who picked him up. And then there was a big picnic on Sunday a parent outing. And everybody went along and I went with the child and his brother because the parents couldn't go. And we went to Jones Beach of course that was the very first time

he had ever been to the ocean. And he was absolutely in thrall and I took him down to the water you know with all the children and as he was rolling around in the surf and playing he started to speak. He forgot about what I was inhibited in before this was too real I think for him it was stronger than his fear of the adult. But I've seen so many drilling children language and I do just want to mention that and I'm sure you've seen it. To repeat this speak in a full sentence say after me this is blow down just say blow. And correcting children's mispronunciation and correcting their grammar and then wondering why the children wouldn't speak more spontaneously and I think that's just exactly what you don't do. Jerry do you want to add to that or. Yeah I went I did. I'd start with teacher training

and I would inform my staff you know participatory democracy on this issue that we have no non-verbal children in this center. And I want to help them to understand how the whole concept of the non-verbal child arose and what it means. I think that we've missed the boat in teacher training because we have not related they're learning or have they teach to the whole social system and I think this is an important thing that we have to put in to teach retraining. I would certainly help teachers. To assist children in getting their thoughts down on paper so that the children know that what they say is a value and the Mississippi Headstart program with whom I've had the opportunity of doing some work has published several books that their children

have created that use the children's own language. This is no problem for the children but it was a problem for the staff because we can't see all that bad grammar in print kind of thing missing the teaching point which is to receive what the children bring give it respect so that the children understand that what they say has credence and importance. So I would agree you know with both and my in this respect is a very interesting latter point because of course I don't have a preference or not a preference but a certain prejudice towards the children's own creative work and myself being sort of involved in this whole area but one thing which you did bring up which I think is terribly important and I again look at that clock and see that we have unfortunately come very close to the end of the program is that it seems to me that in

our two weeks of discussion here that the one thing which Jerry you did bring up at the end but which perhaps we we should have brought up earlier is that the thing that head start maybe can do. I don't know if it's possible completely but certainly can do in some some way. It is too large in the children's mind a concept of self respect. That outside of everything else that they may or may not learn that this quality of self-respect is a strength which no matter what happens to them in public school after which this is an area which I'm fortunate we don't have time to discuss but as we had discussed before the program it's one of the problems of Head Start is what happens to the child who is in Head Start and then goes to public school that the pressure of the public school demoralizes him in so many ways because the rigidity of rigidity of so many public schools but if he does have this that this

seed of self-respect whether it be in in play or in language or in just his social situation his social conditioning that somehow this will be a hook upon which he can hold on to no matter how how rough the going gets. Later on I say certainly as we all know that when the going gets terribly rough. I would sort of like to end on this note if I may. But this whole element of communication might be above and beyond simply the mechanics of language that we must communicate in a very human a very basic human element which is simply that of human beings reacting to each other and in more particular way human beings reacting to themselves. And if we can get a child to realize the validity of his own imagination the validity of his own thinking and speaking then I think in terms of the whole concept of head

start we have in fact given him a great headstart. I began looking at this quote very carefully. I'm afraid we don't have any more time but I would certainly like to to thank my Appleman and Jerry Wilson and Ann Wright for what I feel to be a very very stimulating program. Thank you so much. You've been listening to the second part of a two part discussion on headstart and the teaching of language with my Adelman consultant for New York University's in-service training program. Jerry Wilson field advisor for New York City's headstart and Wright director of the Westside community nursery school. Mr. Lewis is the author of five volumes of poetry for children most recently miracles and the wind and the rain. Two collections of poetry by children published by Simon and Schuster. And out of the earth I sing the poetry of primitive peoples issued by Norton for a free summary of this program writer WRVA Art Department B New York New York 1 0 0

2 7. Please enclose a stamped self-addressed envelope. This is been directions in children's literature the 11th in a series of 12 programs with Richard Lewis and other authorities in the field of children's literature. At this time next week Mr the uses guest will be the author and illustrator Maurice Sendak directions in children's literature is produced by Richard Lewis and Cyril Peters for WRVA on the FM station of the Riverside Church in New York City. This program was distributed by the national educational radio network.