National Association of Educational Broadcasters Convention Second General Session

I would like to call it to order now a play is the second general session of this convention. Before introducing our first speaker Professor Fenn let me point out to you that although it is not in the program we will have a short address following. Dr friend's address by Commissioner Robert Bartley of the FCC. I know you all will want to stay and hear what he has to tell us. And it seems to me that the mark of a maturing profession. It is when it begins looking outside of itself in order to identify and relate itself to those disciplines on its periphery. And I think there is a growing awareness among educational broadcasters that

broadcasting techniques alone are frequently incapable of carrying the complete communications burden in depth. And thus it is appropriate that this second general session be dedicated to the subject. The Co-operative use of media in education. Dr. James Finn our speaker is professor of education and head of the department of instructional technology at the University of Southern California. I think there's been enough recognition already given to Ohio State this morning that I will not tell you where he did his doctoral work but will pass on and mention that he is the past president of the division of audiovisual instruction of the NEA and is currently president of the educational media council. It's a very great pleasure for me at this time to

introduce to you Professor James Fenn. Mr. Chairman thank you very much I see Harold Hill didn't quite get the word to you but as to the topic because I change signals on Harold and but he's been a busy boy and it's pretty. Maybe he was a little afraid that he should announce it anyway it could be. I was rather understood to be described as being on the periphery of broadcasting. This occur occurs to me that there's at least one man in this audience that knows that that isn't quite true I CHB McCarty now on air and one time I was down in the basement of a hauling around hours paintings that kids used to send in an ad art program remember that Mac where fact the first job I had out of college was a commercial broadcasting and I fiddle around with it ever since I was just smart enough to get out of it I think that's the whole problem.

Ah. I am very glad to be here today and I say this with some feeling for two reasons The first is there was a time when I stayed away from an A B deliberately it had something to do with it. I don't quite remember nominates me within minutes so I either bet on the twins wrong or the Vikings or I stole a tape recorder in Minneapolis or something I don't remember what it was but there was a time I was afraid to show up here. I assume that long as I have this mental block why it's an in-house joke and if you don't get it you'll never get it because nobody will tell you the story. The other reason is serious and that has to do with the fact that two very great guys have come to know and really love Bill Harley and Harold Hill. Both were very hard on the educational media council. Bill is vice president of the Council on Harold one of the

leading lights and committee operations and you have some very good people in your organization and I know you realize this but I just want to say it publicly. I said I'd change the topic on her old principally because the other speech I was getting tired of and it put me to sleep three times so I quit. But. Also we have been looking on some research I've been doing at this general problem. The growth of knowledge and this in itself is a horrifying subject especially when you have a media oriented person dealing with it. And if they'll bring the lights down I'll show you what I mean this is also I think sometimes they live a lifestyle in place. It's mad the lights downplays. There they go.

Now come on I'll bring that. We're clear eyed I'm looking at the spotlight. This is a view of a dangerous person called an instructional technologist this is a this is a broadcaster's view of an audio visual person. And when you get talking about this subject I'm going to talk about today you know which is now that slide please on the growth of knowledge. You're considered to be very dangerous by many people or am I talking about the growth of knowledge and what the hell is THAT got to do with broadcasting. Well presumably you are in the educational broadcasting business or you wouldn't be here. And one of the basic arguments that you have for your very existence is that knowledge is exploding and expanding etc.. Now. How much do you really know about this business of the growth of knowledge actually people in education and talking about a long time and they all use second hand information

they heard somewhere that they're 90 percent of all the scientists in the world still alive things of this type. But the actual data and some of the dimensions and parameters of this problem and it's a very big complex problem have just not reached into the water. Sure of education in general or broadcasting or audio visual communication or in these other areas whose very existence the rationale upon which they're arguing we should increase broadcasting we should speed up learning and all that sort of thing. They're all based on the concepts of knowledge. Among other signs is growing at the coursers at 21 the population explosion but these data on the population explosion have been processed through the educational community very widely. This is not true of the information sharing knowledge so we've been looking at it as a very interesting subject as I hope to show you let's see how we can develop this a little bit helps.

You're going backwards down there where you are now. The study of knowledge has been a very respectable one by philosophers since the beginning of philosophy course had one classical branch of philosophy epistemology which has been a study of knowing and unknown how is it the man knows. What does he know and is it true what he knows and so we have a whole history of looking at knowledge this way from Plato through Barclay for instance who raise the question of can you know anything really or is it all in your head to begin with. Up to the present logical positivists the British philosophers who are still dealing with this very problem what is mind and what is knowledge. This is a very respectable area in an academic community but it does not indicate the parameters of the problem. That we are interested in.

There's also another boy knowledge has been studied that has to do with the history of ideas. What knowledge has influenced mankind what has been the flow of ideas what are the great thoughts. This sort of question has been answered many times by philosophers and critics as you see here. We have also had in the past in the field of education the one one great man who ever took a look at this problem from the point of view of education as Boyd Botha the educational philosopher at Ohio State University who died about a decade or so ago and his major work on this subject was published in 1940. Now it sounds like a book in psychology but it wasn't bought and maintained. This that our conception of learning has a direct bearing on method. That is how we teach it also has a bearing on educational aims or the philosophy of our objectives because the question of what learning is can be answered only in terms of what the mind is in our conception of the mind in turn will

decide what we consider to be good for the mind in terms of educational program other words what Boehner was saying was a kind of educational system you design will depend primarily on what you think mind is not inside and that means what is knowledge and what is knowing. That insight got lost somewhere in the shuffle. And no educational philosopher since that time has looked at it and it has some implications for example in broadcasting. If you stand a man up in front of a blackboard and he makes remarks on it and you take a picture of him and sent it out over a wire and Airwaves you are making some kind of a bet as to what mind is. Unless you understand this you may be wrong you know. At least if you understand us like mine is this you might then be able better to found the thing you do in broadcasting. However that insight as I say is meant to last in the educational shuffle and it remains for another

philosopher to pick up the ball and do things again now the latest thing we have had in the study of knowledge and the community of scholars is Professor Broner of Harvard now has two or three things going for him number one is from Harvard and so that you know if the janitor at Harvard blows his nose they start blowing in Tanner's nose. Wisconsin and Southern California and everything else. And secondly Bruner is a very delightful writer he's sort of a half poet half psychologist his stuff reads real well so that when he came out with his little book which is nothing more or less than a report on a conference and the only reason he got it out was the government was supposed to get the report of the same conference out and run his book Spend out four years in the government. This report is not yet. But at any rate. Broner says in one chapter there that knowledge has a structure and that this structure can be discovered and this has now been picked up and every educator in the

country is trying to do something about the discovery method of teaching and there are even television programs and I imagine I was annoyed but I imagine my good friend and colleague Lester back this morning talked a little bit about discovery. If he didn't do you well the next speech he makes is he's very interested in this field but also the business that knowledge has a structure all of these are both very interesting technical and philosophical questions. And I would say that in the modern educational community you have a day that the only real concern or knowledge as such hinges upon the concepts that Broner is kicked around and of course now we have the Saturday Review and everybody putting their blessings on this approach. And with that kind of control how can you lose. Now we're going to look at knowledge for the next few minutes and I will different context and that is the context of quantity is we have had this

information explosion. And. All you can relate it to epistemology related to great ideas you can relate it to questions of curriculum making in terms of what you think the mind is and you can relate it to the question of whether you should spend time discovering this information or receiving it. Nonetheless the fundamental fact is that you have to deal with the quantity problem and then the parameters one derives from this which I can show you fairly easily. Now you say OK what the heck does this have to do with me I should have stayed out of the Rathskeller drinking beer while it's the next two three minutes. Have a little experience together because I'm sure that all of you are here because you are well-read and very intelligent people and I know that you're up to date in the field of broadcasting and I assume for instance that you read that book very common and I'm sure you've read it. I'm sure you read this after all you paid for the original with time Clemens money you paid for

the original version of this. I know you know this book and all of it contains all the chapters in it which are very significant to your business. You are broadcasting at least partially or part of the time school materials and I know you're up to date on the new curricular changes right across the board. And those of you that don't pay attention to school broadcasting are bringing culture and or of the social commentators who speak on culture and all that sort of thing and no doubt you've read this book several times. Again the question of what you're going to put on your station and you're well aware of this broad literature of curricular content. And because you know all of those you are portion of the graphic communication system of this country in a sense I'm sure you read that. And you are aware of the research of course it's been done on Educational Television summaries of it you've read the actual materials as for example this report. And some of these reports here on

educational television you know all about them and generalisations derives from them and so on. And similarly volleys. I'm sure you've read them all. Who the hell is kidding who you haven't read half of. Now my calling you stupid no I'm not trolling you still whatever animal you are. And maybe it's all more of my business and yours. The reason why is that so little information explosion in it's own isn't. You realize how much material. Alone comes out on educational broadcasting without getting into all the other areas of media for instance and then from there on out into the general area of education which you're president so brilliantly in the kid you had to relate to in his speech of waste year. Well this is a real tough problem and it's a problem in the field I just happen to illustrate at this white how it's going to look at the dimensions a little further of this information explosion. Now here's another dimension. The plant on the right is a world

war one genny type aircraft and a plane on the left is a relatively small modern aircraft I noticed two things the bottom number one the amount of information it would take to get that plane. Made in the on the right. As compared to the amount of information necessary and put into use to get the plane on the left made. But there is a second factor here because the more complicated the mechanism the more complex the information it generates. This is sort of an iron rule here so the plane on the right you see is for five dials it's a pile as to pay attention to and the rest of it is a scarf around his neck and the seat of his pants. On the left. You have. A tremendous amount of information being pushed out to the pilots that they have to read absorb and really understand right now. Now look at the next one here is a more complicated aircraft at this point the information generated

in that system is so great that of course then we have to eliminate the human beings to get machines that letter stand information to tell humans what's going on. This is in a sense a part of the knowledge explosion that most people haven't thought about. And it does exist in modern life increasingly So not only are we generating new knowledge will show you in a minute but we are also encouraging new knowledge just out of our ability to manufacture implements. The very interesting thing fast speed photography for us. Now in managing large amounts of information we have to concentrate. All kinds of systems and equipment that's Mercury control all sorts of information comes in and put into computers and eventually is reduced to these boards so the astronauts and screens are from a call that can be communicated was controlled or rescued and the like. And more and more of a tremendous lot of this type of information entering modern life.

Now here is all the information. Automotive engineer are now in the U.S. to design a comfortable seat in the car. We'll get to. All sorts of things about the human body about the vision and so on. It's too bad that no engineer has yet learned all that but I hope someday they will find it. Now I'll show you another thing about information in modern life. The copy that we have because there's so much of it anymore we have to invent codes. And so you have to learn to read a lot more codes in years to just to stay alive now use if you think you know a lot about highway signs I have a slight teaching machine program here and I dare say I can teach you something in about 60 seconds. Well I'm assuming you didn't maybe know that. Whoops.

As I think you know. We are coding all sorts of things in modern life and this is one of the reasons Francis why the problem of simple functional illiteracy is sort of beside the point people have to new more than read and write because of the nature of the handling of information. Now let's look at the quantitative aspect in some detail. The only real source of study up till now has been a professor of History of Science at Princeton. There Gail. Professor Derrick JD showup Price Price has written two books it's you see there which covers all this information you've heard referred to here and are about the number of journals and the number of scientists and all is sort of saying in the next and then there is one other source that I'll use and this one which is Michael up there was an economist at Princeton. Deals with the knowledge producing industry of which you're a part economically and from these two sources and next two or three minutes I'll

cover some of these quantitative ideas now we've been doing in my project. So I work in the social sciences and the arts in the same field and I can really tell you that in general the configuration is the same right across the board. In science the whole thing began really with. This. Book. This is the first page of the first volume of the transactions the Royal Society in England. Sixteen hundred sixty five. That's when the scientific paper was invented by the French claim there that a volume which beat this a little bit but it really doesn't make a difference that's the time and the invention of a scientific paper is really in many ways what got us into trouble. And we haven't got out of it yet. And as you know some people particularly professors don't publish wish it hadn't been invented but that's another story. At any rate it began them and we began to

have journals of all kinds. Now there is a graph which shows what's happening to the generation of scientific knowledge in the form of papers and journals. The top black line is the growth of journals per se reaching now in a neighborhood of a hundred thousand different scientific journals. Now by eight thousand nine hundred thirty four the second black line begins you couldn't read all the stuff that was in the journals. So they began to abstract them. The number of abstracting journals now is pushing up to 300 or more. And of course you couldn't possibly read 300 abstracting journals which abstract the material in the main journals. If you spend eight hours a day seven days a week this is one very quickly of the information or knowledge grows problem. And now here is one sample here physics abstracts alone that's one

publication. Note the curve is what we call an exponential growth curve. Same thing happen if you fire some gunpowder in a laboratory and measure the rate of burning. He now had two periods of slow Dowd's these are the two wars which didn't affect the overall trend at all a number of abstraction physical physics and electrical engineering as men are arising while his time. Now one of the interesting sidelight scientists at price points out is that. These are not generated on on no one basis said as every scientist in the world is in right now on or three or five papers. And this makes the accumulation Actually most just right one and the rest of the fellows write the rest so that there are very few men actually men and women I'm using the terms and they're equally for those lovely ladies of the crowd. There are a few that contribute the most. One of the records is held by Lord Kelvin. I don't have the statistics with me but he wrote

something like 30 papers a year for 40 years and these are all first rate scientific contributions. And so it goes but you know the words knowledge in quantity is generated by relatively speaking a very few people see most fellows who let's say get a degree in chemistry they maybe publish the article in their dissertation and forget it. But there are a few that keep brining this stuff out and they're the ones that get us into trouble. Now another thing has happened is you can see from this graph. In the old days we used to have one man wrote one paper and increasingly since 1900 the single author has declined as a source of scientific knowledge and increasingly we've had two authors and now are getting three and four in fact there was one paper holder pointed out that came out of the authorship of CERM they had so

many guys they didn't know what they call it. Here's an example of this sort of saying Now don't ask me what that study is I have no idea. But note that. It was reported in. Periodical or a newsletter designed to increase communication among scientists and help break this knowledge barrier. We're not here we have one two three four five men from Syracuse 3 6 7 from Duke two from the Oak Ridge National Laboratory three from Johns Hopkins and four from the University of Iowa. All authors of this one paper. I imagine at the time of their final report the struggle for senior Rotherwood might have to be settled at a Las Vegas or something and I don't know. Now. Science based industries of which electrical manufacturing is a first one. Beginning with Benjamin Franklin's key on a kite so to speak. Has shows the

same kind of exponential curve. Now when you calculate these things as price is done if the trends continue everybody in the United States will be working in electrical manufacturing around the year 2000. And or you could take any other field in this area that you would all be physicists or chemists or something like that this fantastic exponential growth trend the absorption of people and materials continues. However there will probably and most certainly be a ceiling put on this which is another thing prices calculated up. We have here a classical growth curve that as far as is known by anyone has not been violated in any kind of growth ever looked at from a bean stock which first one has to arrive early to the growth of roads in the United States or coal mines or anything you

want to name. I want to happen seriously as you have for a while an exponential curve which gradually turns over and flattens out. And this is really what has to happen in this grows of knowledge which is one of the intriguing angles to it when you think about it now. Prices estimates that we are within 30 years of the turnover time right now is if we keep going in this tremendous doubling right now haven't gone into that but whole like chemistry knowledge is doubling every 10 years physics knowledge every six years this type of thing that kept on much longer we'd be in trouble now what will stop it what will stop it obviously lack of personnel information glut. All sorts of things will slow it down but the price feels that the crisis we're in today and formation is really not so much that it is exploding because it's been exploding from the year one but that we have reached this point of what he calls big science or the turn over time now. This is illustrated very well in the discovery of the chemical elements

but another item is added. Note that you have at the bottom beginning in 1730 you have a practically a perfect one of those top off growth curves except around 18 60 or thereabouts. It escalated and went on up again and then it topped off and then later went up again well what happened in these escalation points is that new sources of energy or instrumentation entered the picture which changed things somewhat and caused the growth curve. And this happens in a lot of cases or new energy is infused in it goes. Now part of this is what happens. I'm going not going to show you what causes escalation. On our left is a graph which shows an area of science which has been untouched this is based on some work of Holden's and that is just the number of ideas which haven't been discovered yet in that field.

Well the minute that area's opened up a whole lot of people which is the second one rush rush in and you see the number of people in the field rises drastically and as the number of new ideas in it vanishes because all the people why people then vanish. And of course the ideas left are practically zero. Now that's what happens in any field of science. And so that new knowledge then is generated by some such system. There it is all summarized except we've added now that when you get the pure ideas out of it. They all declined then the applied ideas come in and then another form of information generation which we talked about earlier. KURTZ So this itself has not been explored too much yet by people interested in this but there is a there are a lot of very interesting relationships are now. This is then what happens if you just look at the graph on the right.

When a new areas open up you get X escalation and the curve continues up but it can't of course continue up forever. This is a diagram Holden developed based on accelerator energy available for you know atom smashing and the like to begin with yet DC generators and electrostatic generators and they began to wear out. They couldn't produce anymore in the cyclotron came along and the beta Tron and so on and each one of these allowed the curve of energy to go up and but it will obviously end someday because after all or putting a ten mile accelerator under the mountains back of Stanford now and I mean I was going to do away run one next from say San Diego to Bangor Maine or something like this. Obviously there is an end to this sort of thing. We also have another little aspect of this problem and that is the generation of patents

which are based on information are in a great mass that takes you about 8 years now to get a patent search done and really concluded. So a lot of people are taking risks in the patent field because the information is so glutted and so varied that there's really nothing you could do about a lot of people are talking about this but not much is being done about it. In the meantime we continually add to the information by even inventing new forms of information. Here's an ad that it came out in a technology magazine last week. This allows for the copywriting of computer programs and the regulation and so this company is now saying OK we're going to have computer programs copywriter will sell and all of a sudden you know all the new area of information you have to worry about. I can see some television commercials later you know by RCA computer programs for the 13 0 4 6 9 instead of Philco or something of this type in there you'll be back in business. You.

Now know that fly trust you see it is. An added attraction. Were shooting us pretty fast. I just want to throw these three slides in to show you that the information explosion is directly applicable to your own field and I think your terminology betrays it more anything else. This is the low end of the spectrum the spectrum continues to grow more and more things get hung onto it all it is is an information explosion. There is a middle part of it and I notice we've already come up the ultra high frequencies and then you get. Out at the end and you have super high frequencies and they haven't anything to call and so they called extremely high frequency somebody out of a shot. Somebody tells me that the next one is written VHI very high indeed I don't know. But anyway this is an example of the kind of explosion that so now doesn't make any difference to us information making a difference. Yes it does. Just take a look at that. What would happen if you

didn't have this information. Well some of us would be dead for instance and this is pretty important. Is it a new problem that really the Chinese were working with. Information storage and retrieval system Chinese scholars or the little man. And by putting the books on the book we'll this this picture is well over a thousand years old. And today we're trying to still trying to solve the problem the same way that some memory in a computer probably outmoded by now several times. But we are among other things attacking the problem of information by trying to technologies it to put it into some kind of a system where we can store and retrieve it. And so there are no companies here is one it sells information services period on solid state computers in area space. There's a high price subscription service you get microfilms microfiche other forms of information storage abstraction the like. By subscribing to this and

there are all kinds of information. Business is growing up. We also have more information stored in computers and people moving around and we can handle with human beings. Now we have systems whereby we can hitch up computers and other data processing equipment with each other you have to have a human hit your mop and then they talk to each other over the airways and make their own decisions I suppose as to what they're going to do with us so I don't really. We're also inviting all kinds of ways as you know all of reading with out people optical scanning you know things to get information and if you're like me you'd like to have one of those machines in your desk. Tighten the electrode to your head so you could have it read and put the stuff in. Various forms of character reading which are now available I digitized that in the show that computers can do this in several ways. And in the big area space industry and other places management

is now using all sorts of electronic data processing followed up by display techniques which might or might not use television his fellowmen or some other more advanced ways of displaying and then they are basing decisions on this and you get in the military field command kinds of situations and in certain parts of the area space industry this type of thing is being developed. Coming from more information now days is it just the scientists grinding away or what. Well it's really based on a fact that research an of element. Is such a part of our economy and our national life and our survival our national defense for instance that this is the total source in. Research and Development as my friend Charlie home and try to teach me six years ago I didn't understand us until last year. He says research and development is only one product and have hardware the only product of R&D is information. And so we're committed to this with billions of dollars each

year and industry for instance this is IBM Research Building in Yorktown Heights is totally committed to that and we are gradually gradually moving in this direction and education in the in our field your field in my field the National Defense Education Act of 58 as it's been expanded and so on over the years. The title 7 provides one source of R&D money which will expand the information in the field of education. And along the lines of creating an ability to handle information generated by the rest of the society. This is interesting we're not putting half as much money at tenth as much perhaps as we should in the enterprise. You Every professional organization including your own is of course very interested now in research and development again I would say that the efforts are very commendable but their view of the nature and size of the problem not enough will.

We have. In addition to generating it we have the constant infirmed problem of coming back and finding out what's already known. People are all the time repeating the mistakes of the past because we do not have indexing storage and retrieval systems even in our own radio field yet which will do this type of job. Now there are efforts being made to it I know of to remedy this situation I think it will be around for your next two or three years. The office of education and so on but it's still a rough problem in this field. Now. You can take an attitude this slide really doesn't fit you people so much as to as it does perhaps educators in general but I think in part it. Does we can take an old fashioned attitude and say OK we're not going to worry about the existing knowledge in the world it's quantity it's overwhelming and all this. It will just go away. We have in the past using the old fashioned approaches and if you'll excuse the expression many ways television like the motion picture is an old fashioned

approach today. And. We somehow. Have got to shake this attitude or our whole culture may be overwhelmed and we may die not in an atomic explosion but in an information glut. Because the ultimate problem is a relationship of communication to the social order. You are very very intimately concerned with this problem. And you must never forget it. And my last remark I'm going to roll a. Very short piece of film which has a quotation on it which was a little bit along for a slide and I leave you with this quotation from Ogden and Richards if your roll of film plays. New millions of participants in the control of general affairs must now attempt to form personal opinions upon matters which for once left to a few. The

same time the complexity of these matters is immensely increased. The old view that the only access to a subject is through prolonged study of it has if it be true consequences for the immediate future which have not been faced. The alternative is to raise a level of communication in other words if we are going to have the democratic aspirations of everybody living and participating in the society as sentient human beings. And in the meantime the society the social order the technological order is increased tremendously in complexity and you can no longer devote all life time to the study of one thing and the only alternative. To some kind of self-destruction not a Tomic bombs self destruction but some other cause. The only alternative is to raise the level of communication. And you ladies and gentlemen have a big piece of this challenge and may God bless you. Thank you.

We have the lights place. Well thank you very much lesser friend for this provocative discussion. I'd like now to turn the podium over to our president Bill Harlow. We're very fortunate that Texas is the home state of so many famous men for this fact provides us with the opportunity to have a special added attraction on our convention schedule an appearance by a member of the Federal Communications Commission because of the happy coincidence of his relatives having to live where the NABJ convention is being held this year. Commissioner Robert Bartley was able to work in a visit to his

daughter's home and also stopped by to be with us this afternoon. Commissioner Bartley joined the FCC in 1958 following extensive experience in communications covering regulatory and operating experience and administrative organizational and legislative activities is first Washington experience was as an investigator on the staff of the House Committee on interstate and foreign commerce. Later on he supervised preparation of reports that were instrumental in the passage of inaudible legislation including the Communications Act of 1934 which established the FCC and of which Mr. Bartley was made the first director of The Telegraph division. In 1937 he joined the Securities and Exchange division and moved into broadcasting operations two years later as assistant to the president of the Yankee network. While in this post he first became interested in FM broadcasting and served as secretary of FM broadcasters incorporated in

1943 he joined the staff of the National Association of Broadcasters and in 1948 became administrative assistant to the speaker of the House bill of Mr Sam Rayburn the office that he held when appointed to the commission. Now I know Mr. Commissioner that your official biographical data set by the FCC indicates that your applications are fishing baseball and people so there are some good people to practice your hobby educational broadcasting type people. I put them in your hands. Commissioner Robert Barclay. Thank you Bill and it's certainly a great pleasure for me. I feel almost like welcoming you to Texas and you welcome me to your meeting. My interest in education in broadcasting

had a very practical effect and as early as 1939 when as a as you mentioned secretary treasurer of an FM broadcasters incorporated we supported the allocation of reserved channels for FM and that proposal was successful in the 1940 allocation of FM channels which I believe was the forerunner and a precedent for the reservation of television channels. So I feel that although I was only a commercial broadcast end of the picture at that time that I did not contribute a little and the precedent. Had me pretty well committed by the time I went on the FCC. These long histories you read about me sometimes amused me a little I went on a commission in 52 they usually say they end up about there and that's the last you ever heard of it. Nothing ever

happened after that. But plenty has happened over the years and along with all of the other commissioners have always given every attention we could to the development and promotion of educational television because we feel very strongly that in this field the contribution can be greater than any other that we know anything about. So you always have our support. I'm certainly not going to detract from the excellent presentation you just had. But I did notice that many of those charts started out at a very low level about 1930. And believe me I'm awfully happy I got out and about 1931. Notice what you have to learn nowadays. About all I could think about was this. Book salesman that was traveling around through the country some years ago. He had a very fine book that he wanted to sell. It was on how to farm better. It was a magnificent

book beautifully illustrated gold all the new methods and he came to the farmhouse along about dinner time and he caught the old farmer in from the fields started giving him a sales pitch this was a $12 book. And he talked and talked. Farmer muttered just kept shaking his head and finally it got down to eight dollars and six dollars and two dollars and finally the fellow said well you're pretty good fellas I want this book's awfully heavy I've got to walk on into town so I'd like to give you this book. Farmer said thanks but I wouldn't want it. He said well why not it has all about how to farm better he said Well I'll tell you. He said if I get that book I'll just put it up on the shelf and it will gather dust because I already know how to farm better than I'm doing right now. So I felt many times when some of us from Washington come out to broadcast meetings for educational television or radio people that we might attempt to give you some guidelines on how to do better. But I

know you already know how to do better than you are. Many times it's just a matter of a little more money. This to me is going to be one of the key problems before you I'm sure that you all recognize it better than anyone else. But I think that as we go around the commissioners and others in this area that we can contribute somewhat to a stand mutilation of interest by the general public in this whole matter of educational television I think that we are we've overcome. I hope we have and I believe we have. What to me was a very distressing attitude some years ago. And I think you all know what I mean and the attitude of the egghead the educator the scientists and so forth. He did not have the appreciation that since the war has been developed and is gradually increasing and we will do whatever we can to help promote it. I just want to visit with you be with you any systems

we can be. You know you can call us and. Good luck and any time you're in Washington I can be of any help come to see it. Thank you very much Commissioner. I've been asked to remind you that the reception begins at 5 o'clock in the exhibit area immediately behind the auditorium where our industrial exhibitors are acting as our host this evening. Thank you that ends this afternoon session.