The Story Behind the Theatre; The Casting Director and the Agent

New York City all of the world story behind the theater. Actors looking for new jobs. These are companies looking for new talent. A perpetual round in which established actors a new contest for a hearing. In today's theatrical world it's the casting director who searches for talent to fill a specific role and the agent who works to supply it. Today Lyle Dodd Jr. talks with Ruth Kramer casting director at the Theater Guild with evil wife an agent with the Lucy Crowe literary The ethical agency in New York and with Bruce Silva partner of 7-Eleven's an incorporated theatrical agency. They'll be talking about the interdependent roles of the casting director and the agent.

There was all a backstage host JR legendary search for talent doesn't seem to have quite as many silver linings as it did in the days when say David Bell ASCO found some youngster haunting the stage door and made her the star of his next extravaganza over night but nevertheless obviously a gigantic kind of talent search must automatically perpetuate itself or else the thousands who newly arrived in New York each season in search of a career on the stage and naturally in search of stardom would have nothing to head for and would have no hopes of ever getting there. But I think despite this the days of overnight sensations of pretty thoroughly disappeared in favor of for lack of a better term a more organized type of casting and training and experience. This of course is where the actor's agent and the casting director. I mean I think to begin with the first thing we might explore is just how exclusive are these two jobs. You know the words. Isn't that a bit of an oversimplification to say that the agent

supplies the new talent casting director is constantly in search of. So what I'm really saying is doesn't it work both ways in the both are looking for new talent and both trying to supply it. One I think that the main difference is one works for a producer and the other either works for themselves or an agency. But the basis upon which they work is the same I mean we both look for talent and we have I mean very often a casting agent for a producer will call me and recommend somewhere that they have seen that is very outstanding as you know it's our job to recommend talent to the casting agent but very often it works the other way well then it would follow Ruth when you're casting do you work only through agents or do you have your own files and contacting actors directly. Well both. It's I run around off-Broadway shows and look for talent and I meet agents there and the next day I'm calm and say what. Because I know I'll see them or I. Might see somebody in a show that I don't like and that the agent doesn't like. Well let me ask you generally do you feel that the need for agents and casting directors arises

mainly from the fact that the profession is so overcrowded or because as I said a moment ago that simply the way to work now in theatre is a little more organized that there are accepted channels or is it because there are just so many looking for work. I'm again I think that's both you know that I think that there are many more people coming in search of jobs schools now have drama schools and I I think a lot more people are turning. Towards a theater than they used to and it's more accepted for people to go into the theater like 20 years ago not much more than 20 years ago a young girl wouldn't think of coming to New York and starting a career whereas now you must get many more. I think a beginning actor has much less need for a nation than an actor who's somewhat established. Well. If that's so it's funny in a way yes and no because sometimes they just can't get him to see sarcastic or hear if you've never heard of an actor and an agent calls you and says Will you see sell and sell for such and such a part.

The chances of you giving that person a reading if you have never seen them never heard about them unless you're really looking for something special for the part. If it's a difficult story to cast most casting people won't. See someone just on the recommendation I agree with completely on that one fact I tell them very young people when they first come to New York when I haven't seen them. And there's there's really no major credit to go on. I always say you know you know this is the wrong time to go looking for an agent and a good agent a very responsible agent will not pay too much attention or help they will advise and the best thing that we can say and I'm sure Eva says the same thing is please let us see let us see you do something and then they say but how can we without the agent executive possible. I can only say that six weeks after every one of the people that have the necessary drive and all of their patients come into my office I get that little jingle on the telephone. This is so and so I met you six weeks ago and you told me to let you know I'm in an off-Broadway show and here I'm doing a scene in class right.

Can you come 30 days out there it is possible it's not it's not easy. It's easier now that with the all kind of off Broadway trailer we had. But we still have the after show you know it's just as difficult off-Broadway as on Broadway which we agree with the most. Most new actors starting off seem to think their first job is to get an agent and I don't think that's the way to approach it. I'm looking for the actor as much as they're looking for a job and they don't realize it but sometimes I get into. A terrible bind and I think right now why can't I find one large list. Sometimes. The timing depends on whether you do know they enjoy a lot of ideas okay we can call you and I you know you will happen all the time I can guarantee you if you say if you called me because we just can't find anybody no matter who I suggest you will see them I have a specific example in mind where I had wanted. A casting person to see someone. And they didn't at that point the part was cast and then it was recast and my person

was only seen on the recast at that point wasn't available. But originally I could not get that person to have the same credits at that point I. Always found. My. Position for my film. OK. Because you say time is the current time. Sometimes we get so beleaguered not just by actors but we have the director saying that's right and you know it works all the way down the line but it is to our advantage to work in the theater as it exists today. Good bad. Many of the conditions are bad all this work under conditions that are not ideal. I think an idealistic young actor starting out wants the theatre to be ideal and. Keeps hoping to find it that way. We were working in IT know what we have to come back to the thing that I get discouraged about is when I do see the young people they are so often so ill

trained for the part they're coming up yes. That's a whole other subject training of the actor. Well if we can get away from the actor for a moment back to you three what knowledge and background are essential for an agent or a casting director there. There virtually is no training that can go on but well my rate of training right where I happen to have training as an actress and I think that it is very helpful to have some training in the theater in terms of knowing what you're looking for and understanding. Both boys also how people work technically like I can watch a person in an audition and I can hear what they're doing wrong and afterwards I say I want to do such and such and have a reading again and maybe it'll help them I think having some some training is very helpful. Well I tell them to walk a different way or whole themselves and I only can tell that because I have dance training you know otherwise I probably wouldn't even be aware of it.

So I think of the specific background as probably different for every person involved in theater how you arrive at the job that you're now holding. But I think that's true in life I think that's true in almost every profession except you know I guess if you want to be a doctor you know that that's what you were heading for for a long time but it doesn't quite work that way in theatre until you find the specific job that you're going to be doing. But I do think most people in theater most casting people most agents have arrived at the job in their own specific ways with their own specific backgrounds. Well for instance so Bruce if someone came into your office and said I like to be your assistant or I'd like to begin working in the field of Agent tree would you want any particular background. Ruth is talking about the practical knowledge of all the stallions First of all I'd want to know what they're writing. Well first of all besides any technical background where you know they were a drama student in school or were an actor I would like to know why they want to be an agent it always intrigued me. I never call

myself a writer I mean but I would want to know that would be a good reason. I can't imagine why you brought this up I just want to mention for something as far as the agent goes and also the casting agent. There's something a phrase we have in the theatre which we call a nose for talent. And I think that is terribly essential you know you can be as beautifully trained and work all your life in the best offices and you have to have the strange little nose for talent. And it comes and it gains as you have confidence in yourself in other words as you begin to place people whom you believe to be talented in jobs responsible and then you read the criticism and you hear from producers and casting agents. IT directors that your clients are good you know that it sort of gives you the confidence to go on but this is very essential because I have worked with many of my cohorts in large offices of all of this and you know they I've done it just out of curiosity to see whether they will take to a performer either musical or not musical and be amazed at those that you know they

just slip right by and I think this happens all the time and you know I've missed some of our quality which is very hard to define and sometimes it has nothing to do with training. Sometimes it doesn't even have to do with talent because if a person has a specific personality that they project if that is an attractive personality they may be only able to play that kind of part and they still can reach stardom. It's a magnetism it's a thing that happens when you are sitting in the theater very often an actor and actress will walk on stage and suddenly your attention is immediately drawn to that person you don't know why exactly. And yet everybody else just fades out and you're sitting there and you say it's really all you know and I don't have one of the problems to as not not just having general taste but the both a casting director and an agent needs as when you read a script to be able to understand what is the right person for the script that's one of the problems that that I have in terms of agents present company excluded but you know I'm OK as I was then.

I'll send a script to somebody. And then they'll send me a list which I just feel that they've never read that read this group and I and sometimes I figure why am I sending scripts out because I have to fight them back. Listen this is why casting becomes very interesting because very often we read a script and we do naturally make our suggestions and very often I will get some odd notion as I'm sure either has to that a part can be played differently at least when I call and say you know this isn't exactly what they are However I understand that it's sometimes especially the big agencies they will just send you anybody because they handle it and then they can tell the actor look we're working for you and they're not they're just sending in names without any responsibility towards the client or the casting person. The difficulty in terms of reading a script or seeing a breakdown from the agent's point of view quite frequently. There are certain specific things set down. I have always tried to stick by them and not to go into my own creative thinking in terms of the initial submissions. Then when the part is cast you suddenly

find that what was very definitely physically described in one way has suddenly been cast in an entirely different way. Well but that's probably because you've gone through a hundred girls who were the way it is physically and in that one person comes in who has this little sounds for you but since your entire professional careers you must work for and with actors all of whom are the great majority of whom work or belong to the actors union. What is your relationship with the union in that. Do they have certain requirements. You must be franchised of course. What beyond that do you have any then contact with the union after you receive a franchise. Well only in terms of specific problem areas of contract as most of us realize are contracts that are made that the the agent secures for their clients a copy goes to equity equity is aware of the agent that's involved in the contract there's anything in that contract that equity objects to we will hear. Absolutely.

Yeah like I don't but I did and so will the producer you know I mean it works both ways equity really watches both sides Vereker there well is there anything that the union does that will say for instance you you must have a private room in which to audition actors Oh yeah garments for agents they have agents requirements we also had I know when I began my business not when I was an agent at one of the larger offices but when I began my business we had to go before the board and we were questioned freely by the members of the board who'd been in the theater for many years and then they inspected the premises and they checked all sorts of this is equity. You were talking a moment ago about a young person here in New York coming straight to you and you're saying this is not the first stop really an agent's office. But what is the best way to start for someone to break into a theatrical scene just this making of the rounds or studying trying to be seen in scenes like you say getting an agent. I think we should specify that there is a difference between

exclusive representation by an agent and freelance representation by an agent. I think it's just as important for a new actor to get an agent or several agents interested in them interested in coming to see their work when they are working. I think this should be part of the job when they first come to New York. But what I meant before was exclusive representation where one agent will work for them in all areas in there and they will only be submitted by that agent that is shutting out interest from other agents contact other agents can make for that new actor. I think a new actor needs as many friends and as much help as possible including help from agents. As a matter of fact Bruce you've had a book published on the subject that you do is to have an ever brochure it's called your career in the theater it's doubled in public and it concerns itself with young vernacular this is it. I think of the recent

publicity and it says it takes the actor by the hand through the story. But I believe that you know as prepared as an actor can be as trained as an actor a young actor can be it's all beneficial and they must come. And I agree completely with the of the agent's office is not the first stop. The unions possibly in just looking around and checking bulletin boards what's casting going in and then YES YES and all of the all of these things. It's not a secret casting in New York if you know the areas in which to work. It's not a secret. Fellow actors I think the best thing to do is to register in some kind of a class. Some recognize that they will learn more from their fellow actors. They will learn what's being done they will learn how to make rounds. You all must be flooded with the invitations to showcase off-Broadway whatever you're talking before about covering as much of this is you can is this of a real help to you in other words. Has it happened to you that you've seen something I know what in the

past four years only one has on an opening night and aged rushed up to me and said I must be introduced to this actor and I want to sign him right now. Which makes me think this is quite rare once in four years does this kind of you see an actor once and you know I think you must really have to see and act to do one performance and get the feeling that you know that actors work well enough to want to immediately sign then the main service or the main purpose of your going to these things is to get more acquainted with actor's work that you probably already know not necessarily to tell you this is a you know it's the basis of our business I would say I mean I you know I much prefer finding an actor an actor's off-Broadway where I can sit in an audience and really watch an actor work I mean that's that's really the basis scenes and showcases or helps and AIDS but they don't tell you as much as watching with an audience of reform. The only thing to be careful is to be sure what the showcase is because many young actors come to New York and then they search around they do find an off-Broadway showcase

which is not always the best one of the best director and I have seen actors who are just terrible and then maybe a couple weeks later a month later I'll go and they've gotten into another play and I cannot believe it's the same actor. So I don't have to become fidelity can after can start weighing is the producer good is the director going out on a fortune a young actor I always advise don't be afraid to gamble our business is a gamble we have to gamble we as agents gamble and at the at the young age I mean there isn't really very little to lose and they shouldn't be afraid of mistakes that's what's happened to the theater all around that we're also afraid of making the stakes both director talks about resigning of course but the young actor mustn't be afraid they have to plunge in and do they made a mistake they have to pick themselves up and go on with the best that is not as evil to come. If it ends out not to that's right you know you will you wait for the next thing to come along but I think the most important thing is for an actor to work and to do where wherever and whenever he can.

Well it is a hasty generalization you can't tell an actor to take any job as long as you just a minute there it is heartbreaking. OK let's make a decision where then they must wait that's the time when a nation should honor their life and they must help have help and advice very often actors are not equipped to make decisions they can't be objective about a script or a park. And that's a time when yes they must be able to turn down something and accept something else. But at the beginning they must take chances they have to get well. Do you at an agency try to handle do you put a limit on yourself and that you will handle only three juveniles and three ingenues. Or will you always represent a good talent even if you have to use a loose term. A lot of that type already in the agency. In our office we try very hard to stay is to remain a small office. Actually it's a battle there's a lot of talent in New York. And there are many people whom I consider very talented and I would like to sign but whom I don't because I feel I could not represent them the way they should be represented nor continue to represent the other people on our

list. Well then Ruth would have follow as a casting director. Then there is not just one agency you call for juveniles and another you call her character man or you know I'll call whoever has the person that I want and usually the agent send me less and when I'm casting I'll go through those lists just generalists of who is in their office and then I will also send the script to an agent and they will give me submissions. Sometimes they have they've just signed a person or somebody who is not on their big list of people that maybe they're freelance with and that they'll send me but I'll call anybody who who handles whoever I want Also I will call people without the agent to mean it and sometimes they just don't like that I know. But if I'm a friend of somebody if I want to get to them. You know two minutes before our quick I will call him but then I will always say look I know you're on science I was last well to follow through with some production you have signed an actor you represent them you submit them to Ruth Ruth wants to read them.

Then how closely do you follow with an actor through let's say just through auditions or through this harassment to get a part of you and roadworthy or do you simply call a client and say oh the Theatre Guild will read you tomorrow at the Moscow theater and you're going to hear with us he calls back and she gives us the appointments with the time in the theater whether the script is available or a scene from the script is available which can be picked up by the actor and then I know I think since I see evil all the time at the theater there are the best agents in New York or the better agent New York endeavor is if it's physically possible to be at the theater we learn about our clients very often also it's important for us to be at the theater because the client is under such pressure that there sometimes are unaware of questions which are directed towards and they forget their most recent and important credits and also as an agent you know you want to know what they're if there was or is a reaction to be given. You want to know what that is accurately from their standpoint not the actor.

Ruth how often does the show come into New York with the exact cast that it started with is that the exception of the rule. Well you know it's I don't know mostly I think the average is. Most shows that I've worked on I probably have about one change that's the average I've had two and three on a show and once I've heard that one of the top directors in New York I won't mention his name. He did a show for the Theatre Guild many years ago and every single actor was changed so I heard that I didn't feel so badly when one of mine would get changed but I did try didn't keep in the back of your mind when a role is cast who you could get to replace that very quickly if you know how to tell Yes you keep a list and when you're having your initial readings you keep a list of who the second choice is and who you liked and what have you. And and then you quickly call them if anything happens. It's a that is one of the worst problems in casting it's very upsetting because first of all when you're trying to do it even though the actors in Philadelphia you're in New York but somehow or other

Philadelphia is like two blocks away because everybody gets to know it and you don't want the actor to know it first of all the director might change his mind. You might not find the person that he wants and we will keep the actor and I have YOU ARE ALL OF YOU been almost forced to become overly aware of the name of value or star value in other words sometimes do you. Ruth if you can't think of a name that you need right away if you're talking to an agent say but we've got to have a box office name. Oh absolutely I mean I but of course I'm told by the higher ups the producers of that that's an economic thing. The worst thing is when you get somebody who was. They feel that their name and you pay a large price and nobody comes to the box office to see them live in a lonely star. I've always felt that when you come right down to it I mean it's nice to enhance a cast by names and no names to them names that are known to the public. But there are very few people today male or female that actually command attention at the word it's reflected at the

back doesn't feel very few. Half a dozen who are just draws that well everybody will understand but on the other hand I don't suppose you often have a chance to submit a young person with a certain amount of experience that you are angling for a lead in a Broadway show. Very often that you'd be really hands because nowadays the young person if if the lead happens to be an engineer or you know there aren't that many stars are not stars and lately they have been accepting young people and stars. Well how firm is your contractual arrangements with actors can they just walk in and say I'm unhappy you haven't submitted me for much I'm going to another agency. There are rules that equity sets down. That control under what circumstances a client may leave. However again just talking in terms of our office and I imagine Bruce's if a client comes and says they're unhappy I cannot remember a time that we have not said. By all means go because having an

unhappy client does nobody any good. Its very own service factory and that's absolutely true. The only time I which we will maintain is if something has been really actually done on behalf of the client in an area that hasn't been started yet as a play has come up and the division has been made there's been interest. We will endeavor to you know maintain for Financial Protection moralist anything. Oh absolutely absolutely yes. But then you can't in effect steal clients from other agents either there or there is a legal contract there are arrangements it would have to be made. Fortunately there are always some agents who do you go right ahead. They fabricate their business and what you said stealing clients is most it's unfortunate I don't think it gives any of us a very good yes and hackers are to be blamed too I mean actors do not have the greatest loyalty but that they're desperate and they're insecure over me. Yeah and so anybody who will kind of sneak around and give them what they think is a better offer I've known to have somehow anything that can be stolen from you is not a client with having Except I've heard it said by very very knowing agents many times there's not a

client in the world that cannot be gotten to and taken away from their office with good conversation and if it's done properly and I must confess that when I was with a very large office for a long time I used to watch this happen and always amazed me for a client an established client who had been with somebody for many years and all you have to do is dangle the right bait in front of them. And unfortunately unfortunately it's a very discouraging maybe right Larry to take the lead here. Well and I hate to end this on a note of talking about stealing and not but especially with you three I think if we can leave young actors and their careers in the hands of you three they will have no problem thank you very much for being with us. Thank you. The story behind the theater today the casting director and the agent Lyle Dyer Jr. has been talking with Ruth Kramer casting director at the Theater Guild. Eva White an agent with the Lucy Crowe literary theatrical agency and Bruce then partner of Savan Levinson theatrical agency. Long before you hear

the rumors that a new play is in production two members of a theater staff have been hard at work. Even before the first rehearsal call the stage manager has already fulfilled part of his job and as the production gathers pre-opening momentum the company manager joins the show. We'll meet the stage manager and the company manager on our next programme. When from New York City the theatre capital of the World W-r biar brings you the story behind the theatre. Produced and recorded by Riverside radio WRVO in collaboration with the Equity Library

Theater in New York under a grant in aid from the National Association of educational broadcasters WRVO oras the Metropolitan FM station of the Riverside Church in the city of New York. This is the ne Radio Network.