Couchiching conference; 4

Changing a theme of this year's conference and nothing has caused more changes in every Asian country than the impact of our Western culture. Tonight therefore we're going to examine this western influence on Asia setting it in historical perspective and trying to assess what kind of Asian society is going to emerge from the present confusion here is Anne Francis radio commentator and columnist of the auto journal to introduce our speakers. We have on our panel tonight a Chinese philosopher Dr wide he may. Have been the narrator who starred in Dr. Edwin Reischauer live. He was born and brought up in Japan. Both of these men are deeply thoughtful people. And they've written much about the past present and future of the Far East. They are both distinguished teaches. It will I think be interesting to hear that to what extent they agree or disagree about Western influence on Asia. Since one of them is an Asian and the other a North American they regard ranging in ages from two different

yet equally informed and experienced point of view. Our first speaker documentary is well he's an enormously erudite he studied in no less than five universities. In Germany in China and in the United States in one hundred twenty eight he joined the staff of Vientiane university as a professor of philosophy after the Japanese invasion. He led the faculty and many of the students on a great trek away two thousand miles deep into the interior of China. Away from war. The documentary and the other patches carried knowledge in their heads since they were only a few cherished textbooks which could be carried with them on the long trip. An hour in the years which followed those Chinese men and women prove that the university needed knew the buildings. Nor a gymnasium nor an auditorium provided they had a good student and devoted professors.

I've been told by one of Dr. Mae students that he is a gentle scholar he was much larger for the part that he played that time. The document I left China in 1949 was that because they were not wholly in agreement with the Chinese revolution. I have to say my sympathies are not exactly on the communist side. Dr. May is now university professor of Oriental Studies. Tonight he's going to talk about Western influence in Asia. To me. I know. The theme of the Sunday annual coaching conference is changing. They need Harpic at the conference but far have dealt with social economic and political changes.

Here and the topic for our discussion tonight is Western influence. On a ship. This reminds me of a story of a Chinese student who R.I.P. in America for further education. He presented himself to the dean in the din. So I decided to meet him and then said Oh Wong you haven't arrived one day too soon. As a matter of fact our program of orientation has already started. Why don't you join them. May be good for you. One looked up into the eyes of the Dean said No sir I just came from the Orient. No program of orientation for me. What I am looking for is a course of oxidation.

From the very outset about this topic we might notice two points. First that almost all of the multifarious changes taking place in changing here today are you there directly or indirectly caused by influences from the modern way. And secondly that of all the changes in changing a here perhaps the most significant and thought provoking one. It will change in the tightest relationship between here and the way the fourth point is simple enough and it will become even more evident as our discussion proceed. The human the second point might require a word of explanation. What I have in mind is the fact that I used to be the

teacher the leader the giver in relation to the way. But now it has to accept the position of the learner the follower and the receiver. This inverted status relationship has an effect it is a radical psychological moment and to my view this is the most fundamental change of all the changes in changing Asia. The story of the earlier faith is now the East-West contact. However like the limitation of the topic to me tonight. But even at we can. What are the significance of such simple and cannot be properly up or a without remembering what had happened before in the way relationship that it

without perceiving the shift from the way to wish to employ in a here in. In 19 in the year 40 in 92. Christer Christopher Columbus bearing the standard of the King of Spain sailed westward for their unity in search of Cathay. When he discovered America by accident he thought the land he had discovered or continued with the kingdom of Cathay. In 40 97 Marco da karma. In the service of the King of Pop Hugo. Sailed southward around the Cape of Good Hope and reached the shore of India. Now the day towards the end of the fifteenth century really marked a park in the relationship

between the east and the way symbolized by the new kind of my Rheem Ruud over again with the former overland route. Now the first contacts were aimed at very evidently trade and the following trade there came colonial rule over the Asiatic country by the European powers. But during the last three or four hundred years they have accumulated a whole pile of. Where is he from. Their way in life. I shall limit my remarks this evening. The five following him for the Christian mission are a movement. Second materialism and technology. Third nationalism

for democracy and I imagine I cannot avoid saying one word about the modern current movement from the word called communism. Christian missionary movement. In the modern then started several centuries back. For an instant then Francis brought Christianity to Japan and the present lay followers and colleagues in the same ordered order arrived in China. Protestant missionaries arrived in China early in the 19th century. The missionaries came to the folly of court with the stated purpose of. Preaching and to convert the Pagan country

into Christianity. But they also brought with them a lot of servility and ideas medical service educational service the idea about equality are pertinent because they say all men are children of God and stand before him. And although the idea of a new kind of womanhood I'm not referring to the recent phenomenon of the Japanese me universe though. You know the whole movement. There are various elements of the relay range from good to bad to indifferent and they have certainly a very fundamental role and a very broad influence over Asia. We must go on to another point namely materialism

and technology. I imagine we have to begin by pointing out that the West itself underwent a tremendous and radical change or revolution on her part in the late 70s early 18th century after they are through. They are regional Christian Western influence. Happy for you in terms of Arnold Toynbee a post Christian civilization. The emphasis in life shifted from a moral spiritual value to those of material prosperity and their well-being. It probably was much more palatable to imagine and much quite understandable when you read the about

the great and to hear even such great personalities like Walt here in his day he was proposing to improve the human condition in Europe. Our long shiny and confusion line that kind of talk was at least supportable. Simply because Europe of that day was so much more similar to China than Europe of a later day. Europe has changed itself. And when the modern humans from Europe from the west came to China came to the rest of the fire yet here it was anyway. A modern Europe and a modern modern oriented Europe that came to the Far East and of course they know they know very immediately

because they had to fight those battles for self defense and readily they were defeated. And it doesn't take too much of intelligence to see that their enemy had superior powers so that opened their eyes very easily and they readily appreciated that the way it had developed the technique and technology in the way of making war weapon the gun and then of course following that the world building of a railroad and bridges and the telephone to tell a telegram and today of course every country ever heard including in here wanted to something like a cycle or car and they wanted a crack at him. If not cracking at him. It always is the very readily acceptable. I don't know of an Asiatic who object to a ride in your car on principle or being given one. I

would be very happy to receive one. However the clock is so much so if the situation Mr. Tom B was remarking the other day that the other people in contact with the West was trying to take as much as possible of the Western technology and reject it at much as possible. The rest of the Western way of life. Of course when the Asiatics looked deeper into the situation they readily appreciated that behind this powerful network that called technology there is a sign behind it which takes not merely muscles but also head and auto organization auto institutions and long time development. The scientific attitude or methodology relay is one of the drafting contributions I think in the influence

from the West not that of the Asiatic could not be scientific. During recent times and Indian a Japanese Chinese have won Nobel Prizes in their fields of sign that definite proof they can do it but the earth wow their values were placed where and they have simply not gotten on the track that we call the development of sine. Let me move on quickly to the point of nationalism. Nationalism is definitely a Western product you know why it is a modern thing it's only in modern times it has gathered when really made a difference to the life of the people and life of nations. But if truth really might go back very far the Greeks had their state and generally speaking the attitude of the citizens

to their city state was one of worship and this of a symbolized by the goddess the like for Athan and I for the part. This western development of an extremely efficient independent national unity sovereignty has come over to a here with the rest of the Western influence. So much so that now even the Asians have made to feel probably the most disgraceful thing that could happen to an individual to the accident of having more country. I'm not so sure that that is really very important. Terrible bad bad business India for instance a proper AG has never developed a centralized national unity. China has had a national existence

but it's a mostly cultural unity rather than a political unity. It's the bunker realigned are sort of a rubber band situation in China. On top of the world in peace and prosperity and fighting with flinty our neighbors like to be identified with China on the other hand in the next very bad way and couldn't even take care of herself. Her neighbors would want to assert independence and to say they have nothing to do with independence. I'm not sure what they are to you in the long run. Looking at the long view that with a nationalistic re that the over running the whole world and getting us into such terrific difficulty that we try to untangle or allay an unmixed

blessing. I think it is too bad that fate of western life should come to the end here. But together with western politics and Western political attitude came a gift to China. I referred to the democratic way of life government by the content of the people. Government according to Law and Order government according to the spirit of justice and fair play in spite of all the great give and insight of the thing and profit a year had never really developed the institution of democracy. You know way now that they call no wrong way of the world history is a matter of the past. Some of the neighbors of India might now be only of

India experienced for having had a longer period of schooling in democratic property and methods. I think democratic government and democratic rule with her way is a great value and that is a big and lasting contribution to Asian buy from the west. Unfortunately I have to closely free a few brief remarks tonight which when you are here with a rather sober and probably not so pleasant and out. Every theory rich in Asia now are right out of a latter day you flew in from the west. I referred to the way of how many how many of them had

already slipped over to China and it tirelessly infiltrating the rest of Asia in communism. It can bind the highest for technological achievement and brute strength and we'll know it. A commission for the work of man and the free expression of the Spirit. So how far communism or succeeded in Asia we have no way of foretelling what we can say that wherever communism prevailed the area has not advanced culture away towards modernity but is pushed back into the dark ages. It is certain that their way would not like to see how many from becoming the dominant Western influence in Asia. Both questionnaires and Asiatic all come back to see if a process of why she was in the give and take.

So that even today both of them merge because of the experience and something which both the Westerners and the cultural way. Thank you Al. Thank you very much Dr. May. You know it came to be is it a complete surprise that less than 200 years ago in the time of Asia and Europe it made me wonder if perhaps we went today the story of the importance of peace as I remember that all too well. An early start but the tortoise and cross the goal line ahead of them. I hope that

we will go on together. And now Dr. Schauer. He is the son of a missionary. He's lived in Japan for a large part of his life and he also knows China very well at present is the potential for eastern languages. And Director of the Center for East Asian studies and Harvard University. He's also director of the Harvard Xing Institute which gives money to several universities in Far East and which also brings young professionals and graduate students from Asia to study at Harvard. He's written several books about Japan and about Japanese American relations. Now Dr. May as you have heard is obviously up a lot of us who think like a historian. Well Dr. Rush hour is I think a historian thinks like a plotter. Now he did it. Putting conference here in Geneva park all week and so he's going to comment on Dr. May's speech in relation to some of the things which people here had very

much on their minds which they showed had done in Russia. Well first let me say very special pleasure to be on the same panel with Dr. May because of the special relationship between the two of us it is in the blood relationship. But 40 years ago my father in law was Dr. May's professor. Now this relationship between a man and a son in law of his former professor is a very important one and in the Far East I doubt very much of the Greeks have a word for it but I'm sure the Chinese do because they have a word for all relationship. I was much interested in Dr. May's paper the very important points that he brought out about the Western influence on Asia and the general underlying themes of the diversity of it. The differences from one country to another and also the very all pervasiveness of the influence. It's been in all sorts of different fields.

Now the fact that it is a been a different kind of influence in different countries I think goes back to the fact that really we aren't dealing with a single subject. There is in a sense no Asia as a really united cultural unit. There are many Asians and I think perhaps one of our first great misconceptions of our problem is to think that we have a Western for the West itself is rather diverse and in East the east is even more diverse we really have to divide it up into four least three major zones of civilization with great diversity between them and then their sub's zones between that. Just the example India and China. The Indian view of the important things in life the meaning of life the relationship between man and the eternal. That is one sort of thing the Chinese view is entirely different in fact it's hard to imagine two more different views on this very fundamental problem. The result has been that the influence of the West has meant different things in different countries and these

Asian countries have often responded quite differently. Let's take again the example of the difference between India and China on this point. The Indians I think consider themselves more of a great religious community. It didn't bother them too much when the thin layer of Britishers more or less by accident into political control of much of India. In fact the Indians weren't very much bothered about this until certain Western ideas and attitudes had been transmitted to them and then it began to bother them very much to find a ruling class of British there. Now the Chinese responded very differently. As soon as there was a menace of a foreign conquest or foreign control of China the Chinese were very much worried and tried to do something about it. The 19th century was a period where they reacted very strongly on the whole rather unsuccessfully they didn't know how to stave off this western menace. They came as a military menace and also as an economic matter. Take another example Japan. It was again another problem

the Japanese responded much the way that the Chinese did. But on the whole quite successful enough why were they successful where the Chinese were not a purely accidental difference between them. I think it probably is a fact of Japanese that had a feudal background that was very much like the Western feudal background and out of that had come certain characteristics that made it easier for the Japanese to respond to this challenge of military and economic challenge than it was for other Asian countries. Such things of the spirit of entrepreneurship. A feeling of nationalism. Various things like that that it emerged from feudalism in Europe had also emerged in Japan and gave the Japanese as it were a running start toward this problem of modernization of changing under the influence of this western impact. Now this other basic theme is one of all pervasiveness I think a lot of people emphasize the technological aspect. The Western influence is over matter just yet. We often cite the fact that the

Western religions of made very little impact on Asia for the most part Asians have preferred to keep their own religions. But I think we're thinking of the spiritual ideal area in too narrow a way when we just think of theological religions when we think of the great guiding ideals the big ideas the ways of life that Asians are seeking will find that these are very much like ours today. And it takes just a single example the concept of economic progress a very new idea in the West. And just see what it's doing to Asia this concept that economy can be improved living standards can go up. This is what is creating the great revolution of Asia. Concept of organizing as a national unit. This is another great guiding idea when we've heard various occasions in the last few evenings talk about their devotion to democracy. Another great Western but modern institution and of course we have the great devotion of the Chinese today to communism. This is the set of ideas a great ideology it isn't just

a lot of get it. It's something more than that. It's technology plus a whole way of life. The whole system of ideals this impact has been very all pervasive in all fields. Let me just cite the Japanese example again a good one because it is an older one. It has a little bit more perspective now I think we should not jump to the conclusion that each country's going to be just like the other one. I don't mean to imply that what has happened in Japan is likely to happen elsewhere. But fortunately in Japan we have a full century of this process to observe and I as a historian love to have a certain amount of historical perspective we can see it a little bit more clearly. Now what did the Japanese do. They were menaced by the West in a military way and economically they had to do something to defend their independence. They saw that they had to change technology. And so they very quickly devised the idea that they would use Western machines but retain the eastern spirit. They felt that they were going to carry out a purely Japanese kind of

polity. It would be a Japanese kind of government never they never dreamed of creating a democracy or creating a totalitarian state. Now what happened. They were insistent that they were having an imperial restoration something purely native had nothing to do with the west though they were borrowing Western technology. Well their attempt to keep this influence of the West limited limited to certain areas proved to be a complete failure. I think just the political field in order to have a modern state they have to have universal education. Well when they had universal education they found they had a grassroots demand for democracy. You can't educate people without people wanting to use their minds. And soon there was a runaway democratic movement in Japan nothing planned for tall the Japanese hadn't wanted to create a democracy. But this technological change universal education and other things like it had produced the demand for democracy. How did they fight it. Those who didn't believe in this and thought this was a terrible thing that was happening. You bet. Well they couldn't return to the futile past. They tried to pretend they were returning to the past but

they couldn't The tall. The only thing that could be a substitute for this new political and social organization which we call democracy. The only substitute they found was to tell a Tarion that it was an army an entirely new army using totalitarian ideas and totalitarian techniques. The pride to stop the growth of democracy in Japan. It is not a nice part of modernization and western influence but it just like democracy was something that had come out of this modern world with nothing. Traditionally Japanese It wasn't anywhere near what the ancient feudalism had been. Why was the totalitarian Why did they have to do this. Well because these men faced a new problem they didn't face the problem of the old feudal leaders. They did not have an educated peasants. Who were easily led. That wasn't their problem they had to control people who had education including hundreds of thousands of college graduates what to do that you have to control MRI and therefore you have to get a very elaborate control mechanism and not just

rely upon old fashioned ways of dictatorship. And so the only answer to democracy in Japan was an equally modern thing well I could go on with this in other aspects of society but the change in Japan over a century has been very great. It's changed the country completely and society and political organisation as well as in these more obvious technological things and therefore I think we must assume there will be very great changes may be greater changes than most Asians assume over the next century or so. When you know that you might shower after listening to you and Dr Mantik I begin to wonder if the Western impact on Asia hasn't been so great that Eastern culture simply can't survive that in a matter of a few years time. We're going to get nearly a reproduction of Western culture in the east. Do you think there's any possibility that all I'm going to glad you pointed that out because if I gave that impression it is not one I want to give I can see how you could easily take it that way because I

myself don't believe that at all. Now for one thing I've been using the word modern a great deal. All these things that have had a tremendous impact on him have been things that have been relatively new in the West itself and I include the market. I think I do disagree with Dr. Meg on that point democracy as we understand it is a largely modern phenomenon and so are all the rest of these machine production and so on universal education. It is these modern elements. That have had a tremendous impact one hour what does this mean I think it means that the world is going through a great technological change such as the world has seen at various times in the past. When we went from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age and iron We had a great technological step forward and all the old new Olympic cultures were vastly changed in society government and everything else. Because of the new techniques of iron and bronze I think the same kind of thing is happening. But their peculiarities about this because the change started in the West it came earliest there and therefore it got a lot of Western coloration

as it came in western dresses that work was wearing a Western top hat which had really nothing to do with technological modernization as such. I think many of these things these Western superficial things have been taken into Asia will in time be sloughed off they don't seem to be particularly valuable whereas the basic change of society that has come with this technological breakthrough if you want to call it that will stick. Now in the West itself what have we seen. We've seen countries like France and Germany going through a fast change in the last three or four centuries. And they're just as different from each other today as they were in the feudal times in fact in many ways. France and Germany have cultures that last July when they were in feudal in the few look period. I think basically the same thing is happening in Asia that Asia is going through a technological change that makes it look as though it's being westernized when it is through that technological change you will see that India is still very much India China as China and so on. I say this with considerable confidence because this is what I observe in Japan.

During the early stages of this you have a feeling that the old is being completely destroyed. Japan may turn into a second class kind of Western nation. Somebody the other night I think Mr. Choudary referred to the loss of the soul. And this in a transitional period is a very grave danger and yet Japan is getting beyond that. Japan is fighting its soul if you want to put it in those terms. The Japanese are very much Japanese today. They aren't anything else at all. They're all very much together with the same basic ideals. Why. Because they are all educated in the same way they have a modern educational system. Now at first we saw the Japanese art be climbing badly. And the Japanese rather unable to use Western art just take a single cultural field. Their architecture their painting and all that ad copied from the West was pretty terrible. What do we see today. The native Japanese art art Greenlee alive much more alive than they were fifty or a hundred years ago and beyond that the Japanese are almost taking the

lead in modern times. They're doing all sorts of amazing things. Their influence on art in pottery making interior decorating architecture things like that is tremendous. And a modern knight I modernized Asian nation they suddenly have a much greater cultural influence on the modernized west than they had before modernization. And this looks as though perhaps after the modernization process we will have a much richer world culture than we had before. You know I could see Dr. Mae huddling up to take a crack at it. The only thing a document remember that I'm sitting between you. While I was looking awfully interested but actually I found very little to disagree with from what Professor Reich Howard has been saying as a matter of fact I think on the whole we are pretty much the same ground. I agree definitely that there are many a here that factors in here and there are

many way. But then of course if you were critical or very briefly in a summary way there is such thing as the contact and influence. Where there are traffic was one way or two way or whether from a to b or p way. Then I'm awfully happy that you're here. Professor rush hour evidently ending up with remarks more or less the same doubt that I did. We all look forward to a brighter day. This is a difficult period. I imagine every age people say they are in a difficult period. So who we are but we feel probably the tempo and the pressure and the attention part might really be MAKE OUR a rather unique. But that doesn't

mean a collapse necessarily or even a crisis. If we did world history there have been many Crikey and apparently irreconcilable ways of live ways of doing things came together. The first appearance was open direct contradiction and a conflict. But then somehow they work a way out. Those of you who are familiar with the history of the spread out in China for instance can draw a line in their Buddhism literally coming over from the. Roof of the world across one Himalayan Mountains from India to China to become a native of China take root in Chinese soil exercising terrific influence but the final product is influenced China or

China put it but return to some extent. China has also made the Chinese Buddhism actually rather Chinese. I think our last quarterly calmly in the order of hundreds of years as a matter of fact the history of the spread of Buddhism in China through the thousand years. If we are only patient enough I think we should be able to expect rather quick resolve. I guess he is a law after all. And I think that it should cheer was all he had tonight given that all in the world today the average man is ignorant and think there's no reason why he should continue to be so. And now we the audience have a crack at our distinguished guest. At the back of the room I see Madam Chairman I have a question for Dr. May.

He suggested earlier that countries of Asia what you accept communism are returning to the dark ages of some of the communist countries of Europe are giving technological aid to Asia for instance Russia has built a steel mill for India. Do you agree Dr. Mae that Asian countries which accept technological aid from European communist countries are returning to the Dark Ages. My point of view yes. I played elsewhere. What I did as a historian I think were getting confused over that I think that the doctor may disapproves of communism and so do I as not being the best way forward but I think we all must recognise that perhaps nine tenths of the things that the Chinese communists are doing in China. In terms of increasing production all this sort of thing are the same things we want to be doing. These are for the most part modernization. Unfortunately modernization does not mean

things are good. There can be a very bad type of modernization as well as better types. I wouldn't think it was also true that when the Indians accept Chinese knows that they feel confident doing so because no one is attaching the strings to it the comments have been very clever about not touching things. Do they think that they give them to people. If you need I got to the difference in a steel mill that comes from Russia do India and one that comes from the United States to India to me they should be exactly the same thing. Neither do I except that my brief statement at the very outset that I rather pointed out that the shift from placing the center of flight to reality material value was a fallback. I imagine many people will not agree with me on that premise and then the bigger

better car are better. But from my view I have a question about that. I hold my judgement. I don't go or I don't think that necessarily progress. You know the question. Why my having difficulty getting into the question Dr. Rice shower has discriminated between the effect of modernisation the influence of modernisation on Asia and the influence of the West. Pointing out that modernization is also changing Western culture and I think in some ways also threatening to undermine it in the same way as it has. Eastern ones one of the aspects of this modernization in which all of us are involved is of course the global nature of it. It is turning all of us into

cosmopolitans for the first time in human history the whole world is one and so on. Which is something quite new in the history of any people would be either the two speakers comment on the extent to which Asians are becoming cosmopolitan feeling themselves into something that actually being members of a one world as a result of this impact over again. The other point prominent a fact of becoming anti-Western. Obviously one of the results of the impact has been a strong and almost very illand and in some people's estimation still growing antagonism to the west and a increased emphasis on their own culture. What happening on these two. I think the one of the basic ideas of the modern world is this

cosmopolitan one this realisation that we are living in small communities or even in small nations but in a great world of many different people. And I think this realisation is very strong in Asia to know you referred to the tremendous anti-Western ism of Asia and this I think is a rather unfortunate accidental product of the way the modernization is come there. If it had been an earlier period when these things slowly from one area to another we would not have had these dangerous conditions. But because things went so fast time is so foreshortened Now we had all sorts of dangerous problems. The West got way ahead of Asia and there was this horrible imbalance of the last couple of centuries resulting in the colonial relationship between Europe and much of the rest of the world well this is obviously soured attitudes attitudes will be still very unpleasant for quite some time I think this is something we have to understand that because of this great imbalance of the last century we will have a certain amount of resentment. Our more rapid progress and a certain

feeling of desperate urgency on the part of the Asians that makes the whole process more revolutionary there. But again I think this passes with time. If you all want me to comment tongue PROFESSOR SMITH question I might say that human contact seemed to me to have various forms. They married they fight they have diplomatic relations they say so multi faceted relationship. And this last chapter which lasted long too long called the Colonial is definitely very ugly. And we all are happy that it is a matter belonging to the past. In the long view I tend to take longer or probably that makes me so impractical in the long

view. What I look forward to. The cosmopolitanism but not a kind of hodgepodge makeshift patchwork. What I think we ought all to work toward is a kind of shall we say symphonic harmony. You know which there are many instruments each one playing. And yet there is a competition about it holding together India China France America everybody. Having a part to play and it's contribution to make. That doesn't make a universal civilization I don't think that. I cannot imagine what that could be I think it could be a rather cruel world. Supposing there is no need. One of our excitement this morning is to our right in Canada

because for the first time where had our great land which we often admire and dreamed of but supposing it was a universal culture. What were your thoughts coming to Canada at all. I'm sure you don't mind if we didn't agree with your question. Yeah I'd like that to go. If Professor Mae would concede that Yugoslavia is possibly an exception to his view that communism always blocks the course of civilization and depresses the human spirit I'm not just sure that those were the words he used in his long view which he prefers. Is it not possible that China will mold and make the best use of communism as he did Buddhism a while ago. Thank you for reaching that question again. I'm glad your attempt to come back to it. I realized I was a little too abrupt because my instruction before we got on the air was what we ought to be briefed at every turn.

I don't mean modernization and evil and I want to go to medieval times and flesh and blood. I'm not that savage. But the point is what with all the steel production and stepped up economic and so on. At what sacrifice. Without regard to human values. The achievement in question very much worth going into. It's easy to see the steel mill. It's not so easy to see that the fears that have that appearance that you're talking about. I hope you have read the books by former

right hand man of Quito. Evidently he had second thoughts. Yes I understand. Talk to me that you think that the the president coming to that regime in picking the worst of them devil. No I think the audience would like to know what do you think that the Western world to have you should do as a second how do you think the Chinese people should do this all the way and would assure that intervening like a western world to intervene in the Russian revolution after the fall of the World War. No the study is do you think that of the Chinese people should the revolt also that or do you think there should be EVF it automated

because this if this is actually the one question but I want. What do you think could be the alternative for the chaotic situation just after the Second World War in China. And what do you explain how do you explain that so many of your own students from university went over to the Congress can you know. And I understood that the most of it from where to do family. Because you see so that's a question I think the audience would like. When we say you are American I mean. I don't know this countryman of mine speaking or not. But then

you're right let me say the beginning and the final portion of this long question. I never did refer to any regime human regime as being worse than the devil because I don't know what they want to traffic with. Mark the lay of the rather pointed a question which I think I only can answer. Namely a product. Students of the university. Well the fact is the speaker pointed out most of our students came from better to do family. Show that the so-called proletarian movement is not so proletarian after all. It is here that in America I don't know I'm a Canadian situation. America those who live in rather funky apartment in New York who thought some of them rather wealthy

people who contribute to such quality. Therefore this idea of a ma a. The labor of toilers that gotta be a laugh. Uplifted. I I ought to say that I'm too much of a humanitarian at anyone here. I like to join forces in that. But this idea of camouflaging. That or mixing that up with the communism is a rather different matter. There are many reasons why young people in China. I'm glad for the Honorable Mention given by the ending sure lending in the market in not completely half the company to Iraq or a city in China. There is a general way and a good deal of it quite understandable. There are a lot of mixed up in it. They want to see China as a strong and powerful and somebody told them that if

they are caught and so on but I am afraid we are getting away from the main topic interests of the Western influence here. The doctor may spoke among his five points of nationalism and that was one of the five kinds of employment to which he gave rather poor grades in the long term view that he takes I think very rightly he regards for the world as one and internationalism is it's just unfortunate that it has come to the east. But what I wonder is whether in the shorter run and is perhaps a second best thing to tide over a period of great difficulty when in feudal institutions are dissolving and world institutions haven't yet come into existence. Whether nationalism

can in fact not mobilize both economic development and cultural development of very great value. I would tend to agree with you with her mantra stand and that is the beginning from here. I imagine that the only way to proceed but one would have wished that her way had not developed one would have wished the wife might have felt the other way. This slower and more flexible attitude towards the national unity which pertained on the part of the east in the east. If only that had an influence of the Westerners. I think the world would have been much happier an easier world to live today than it is now. That one of my philosopher's dreams haven't you happen. It is unnatural. Well yeah I think we have to accept nationalism as being very obviously part of the

modern world we live in whether we give it good grades or bad grades. Obviously the Western nations have gotten a great deal of power out of this concept of getting together as a whole national unity and so are the eastern nations. In fact the small revolution that is the independence of Asia has come largely through the utilization of this concept of nationalism it isn't because of the great spread of factories through Indonesia that Indonesia got back its independence was because the Indonesian people got together as a nation and then there was no place for the Dutch obviously. I think nationalism have a great contribution to the whole modernization of Asia as well as of the West to be a tragedy of the whole if it's only nationalism we hope that the Asians and we're also going to have nationalism plus and that's of course internationalism we have to have a broader outlook and not just be a nationalistic. Professor rush I made the point that the. After the successful acceptance

of the Western technological revolution Japan still remains recognizably Japanese and culture in Outlook. And he made the point later on are you to out in the Senate that China after the same process is taking place will still be China. And later on he said that nine tenths of the changes in China have to do with technological modernization. It seems to me that the revolution in China goes deeper than that and is an attempt to change a nation's value with a chip to operate it. A change in the essence of China and its culture. Do you have any confidence that after 20 years after the main foundations of the revolution have been successfully laid that China will still be recognize the Chinese to anybody who was there before 49. I'm awfully glad you brought that up because it really would correct a misstatement on my part I have no confidence at all that China will remain Chinese because of the attack on Chinese culture by communism I think is a much more frontal more

brutal attack and attack on the whole core of ideas ideals of the past and it is possible that China might be destroyed in that sense and we may not have the world richer by China after that process is over. I just pointing out that in the case of the of Japan this dangerous transitional phase had been gotten through quite successfully and we can hope that the same thing might happen in China that I must play that thing looks much gloomier there. Would you think that communism is really replacing religion in China. Communism is a religion. I mean it. We now have to leave Lake sting Ontario where 200 people from many countries are participating in this 28 conference on the thing changing Asia. Tonight Western influence on Asia with Dr. Y B may Professor of Oriental Studies State University of Iowa. And Dr. Edwin alright

Shahr director of the Harvard instituted the chairman with an Frances radio commentator and columnist and the author of a journal. The good teaching conference is a joint project of the Canadian Institute on public affairs and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Copies of the speeches may be obtained in a week or two from public affairs to forty fours and George Strait to Rocco price $1. Tonight's program was produced by Christina McDougal technical operations by John Scotland. Tomorrow evening we move to the other side of the political spectrum communist influence in Asia be with us again that is Bob Wilsons and goodnight from the good Eugene conference. This is CBC Radio the Trans-Canada network.