1965 National Association of Educational Broadcasters Convention; Copyright

My name is Carol wavering and I'm chairman of that infamous group called the Committee of copyright law revision. And very proud to be the chairman of that group and I'm sorry that you will get out of this room in time to hear Vice President Humphrey at 3:15 in the park over them down the hall it's only two three steps down the hall. And. I promised Scottie Fletcher and I know that I have you out of here at 3:00. So I've asked each of our panelists today to take 10 minutes over in that area and I'll be stepping on their foot if they don't these and then we'll laugh plenty time when this is finished for you people to ask questions you know for the past three years we've been dealing with the copyright problem and we've been sort of hoping and wishing that it would go away but it doesn't seem to go away it seems to persist and it's probably going to persist for another year year and a half and I think it's off. To learn all we can about it so this session today is an informational session. For you. The whole copyright problem will bring you up to date as to

what we have been doing or what we are presently doing and what we think the timetable is like for the future and what some of the things that you might be doing back home to help us with this whole problem. We have a very distinguished group of folk here go from. Left to right here on the left over here is that Mr. Harrison Sasser. Who is as you noticed in your problem the staff associate. On the commission of federal relations with the American Council on Education. Harrison has been working with me now for. A couple of years along with Fred Siegel from Michigan State University. I would say that person to be American the American Council formally but also at the National Education Association a spare moment. I'm a leftist and needs no introduction to anybody who's an educational broadcasting away in a cough. The general counsel

for the National Educational Television and I'm. Very very good friend of everybody in broadcasting and I write this doesn't mean duction either really. Norman Jordan since name has been along with educational television since its very inception back in 1952. The firm of creator and Jorgensen has been legal advisors many many of us all over the country and no one is here to bring his expertise to this panel. And then we have the record of the session Mr. Whitney very exactly secretary of the Florida Educational Television Commission and. Now I have made the introductions I think we've got such a short time that we. Dispense with any other administrative result darkness. The first person we're going to hear from today here is Norman George who will speak to us on the status report and copy right lower vision.

And I am. Chairman of this meeting has issued specific instructions to each of the participants on this plan. I'm quite sure. I'm. At least I know my motion those well-defined these very clear terms. What has happened in the area of copyright legislation during the fast years including comments on the House and Senate hearings and what is probably what is the probable timetable for the future. If you move quickly appreciate the wisdom of the rock. It gives me the opportunity to state some facts. And at the same time to indulge in a little personal. Yes and. That is a well-known fact that there are long been a desire for a new copyright law. But copyright registered the term as long ago as 1955. That the law required expansion revision extensive revision the modification if for no other ways. To bring the United States

law into closer conformity with the laws of other Western powers. Lost money studies of the war were made by experts in the field of copyright and they were published. Some of the offices of some of the authors were persons in high places in the educational community. Now why do I mention why. So after the cup none of these monographs even loans written by educators are finding education special needs. Actually it was not until about two and a half years ago that the copyright. Of. That copyright was recognised as a matter of serious educational concern and your chairman here today brought about the formation of the ad hoc committee on. Copyright. There are as you may know some 35 educational interests represented on the committee and he is one of them. I am told and I am ready to believe and never have the forces of education then so united in a single cause. During the past two and a half years the ad hoc

committee has met at least once a month and many months during major crises. Mormons. For the past year has been one of great activity because of the proposed copyright law was before the Congress both in the House and the Senate and hearings were begun before the copyright subcommittee of the House Committee on the judiciary and before its counterpart in the sun. Let us take a look at the hearings held before the House committee. First they used to test the acts of the House hearings may impress you. They do impress me. There were 22 days of testimony over a three month period. One hundred sixty three witnesses were paired on the oral transcript of the hearing runs more than twenty three hundred pages. There were additionally 150 written statements presented to the committee that ran another 1600 pages. The record of the hearings and I must confess I'm not familiar with all of them contains a follow on intelligent discussion argument of opposing views and suggestions

for revision made by various proponents of a plan. You will hear more on the substance of these matters from a strong reform. In the words of the register and saw from the last Facebook apparently struck that this record will be of immense value for the necessary job of redrafting. When we put my statement together. With the register statement that it is not important what the present law was or was not of law. We can see that the important question for e.g. the now is to state its case clearly for its needs. Under the new law. And it must be presumed the register means that those needs must be considered without reference to any laws existing or proposed in order to arrive at a fair and workable solutions for the problem areas of conflict and I do not want to intrude upon the strong across cross. So the substantive question of the supposed self and the e t the needs in the field of popular. The object here is simply to give you the flavor of the

expense of caring for the for the House Committee after the treaty had stated its case to the committee. The Register made the following remarks to the committee and this comes. Among a great number of remarks but under the heading of education law under Section 1 online for the deaf public performances of non-dramatic literary and medical works. Otherwise the new transmission to the pub would be exempt if there is no commercial models. If there is no admission charge and if there is no payment of any fee or other compensation for the performance to any of its performers promoters or organizers. The educational broadcasters have suggested. Deleting the phrase otherwise than in the transmission to the public. Last spring more than in school instructional broadcasting from copyright control. The Register said that it was not clear to him just how far the proposed tax

exemption is intended to go. Ethyl suggested language is intended to free the broadcasting of any recording program or watch for the performers promoters for organs had been paid originally the effect would be virtually complete exemption of educational and other nonprofit broadcasting non-dramatic literary and musical material. For reasons already of plans for someone in the registry festival in the fall before the committee the register maintained that such an exemption is too broad. On the other hand he added that it is possible that the attempt intention is more limited and that he thought it was the fact. That these ECV proposal to be clarified to answer the following questions is not intended to exempt the transmission of recorded or live performances by professional performers. ANNOUNCER And the lot. Is it intended to examine the transmission of recorded programs were residuals or

reuse. These are paid to nonprofessional performers. Is that intended to exempt the transmission of recorded programs produced originally by a commercial enterprise. There's a little time now to examine the transmission of recorded or live programs produced by the employees of a nonprofit organization whose main function is the production of programmes. Is it intended to examine the transmission of recorded or live performances by the programmers who are paid a solver for full time activities such as teaching. But whose duties mainly involve the parents and educational broadcasts. He concluded his remarks on this aspect of the copyright law by signing it seems possible that the answers to these questions could point the way to to a solution to this problem. I do not mention these remarks to resolve the substantive questions they raise. But to demonstrate that the testimony as part of the ad hoc committee presentation scorer of goals

to be and making itself tough. I think and there are others who agree with me on the ad hoc mess but education did make its news known to lie to the committee. Surely the register recognizes this fact. And there are undoubtedly areas of accommodation that can be and will be explored. And this underscores the utility of the ad hoc committee and its united stand for from the time the copyright law came under active examination for revision in 1955. Until these hearings and 19 1965 educations voice was by the West. Look two years work of the committee culminated in a strong forceful presentation on these hearings from the remarks made by the committee members during the procedure. It appears clear that the House committee meetings to provide education with it with more freedom than the present draft law give committee members at the

close of the hearing come commented that the witnesses before the committee has been helpful and informative. The hearings before the Senate were not extensive. They lasted but three days. Obviously there will be considerable more committee time spent on these matters. But I should like to emphasize here that the opening of the hearings was a pleasant surprise to the educational analysts. Senator McClelland. Herb if he did not actually order the register and the educational interests to get together in an effort to reach some common ground. This admonition has borne fruit. And already the ad hoc committee has established his own with the registrar's office looking for these and I've tried to look into the future and make some kind of gas as to the next Newton this legislation. Talk to interested parties and boil down the general thrust of my findings in the following forms. These headings are necessarily gentle but may contain some

information helpful to one of the hearings before the House committee are complete. The hearing record is closed and I doubt that there will be any reopening for further public trust to one House committee member has said that he believes the new law will be marked for one hundred sixty six. That nice elderly committee could be considered by our three certain provisions of the old bill which require expansion because of the transition period from the old law to the long and so extended until the end of the 1960s for. The Senate go home hold any more hearings on this proposed legislation during this year and probably there will be hearings in 1966. I find it is likely that ultimately the bills passed by both branches of the Congress maybe contain different provisions and thus require conferences between the two branches to iron out stuff to see

all of the foregoing will take time. Those with whom I have spoken of burns that we will have a new law until sometime in 1967. I've been asked to leave one for the ad hoc committee will continue its work. That work is important and it's a period of exhaustion and during its period of just it has worked. It has worked long hours and I strive to keep up with Sharon in her work who drives in the south and the committee weapon in hand. But you can't help and perhaps influence this legislation in a more effective way than the committee itself. We urge you to maintain close relations or relations with your congressman and son. Make sure they come to your reseller. Make sure they use was for sale when they are at your stations. Show them what you are doing and why the freedom human being in the field of copyright is Song important to you and the cause of education. When the party pounds for a vote on this law let's

have our congressman involved and tell him the ad hoc committee was Don't warm and serves before the most absurd congressional committees. You can back it out but I could out of work through towns and lives in the viewing areas of the station. Thank you Mr. Jordan soon. To. For those of you in the back of the room we do have some very good five to six of you locked them up. I don't want you to stand because and if you want to get into the M.E. we're going to reverse the order of things a bit. I think the teen years rather. Than in the huddle and they decided that the next speaker should be hers and Sasser. Will Mark and cancel and Harrison will bring us the overall of the food education. Steak really is in the opposition to the polls and there are some.

It seems to be very good to. See. Some. Education here in Florida take copyright on account of an easy to remember they say sorry the use of materials in teaching. I thought. I was over the radio. Well then what is the use of all kinds of copyrighted material in the class. We can strive for a situation in the classroom. Teacher or you may spend to find contemporary material use. From your article. Oh my. Then papers.

And I'm just getting started to give you a little time practice you will find all of the slang because they are. He well knew and contemporary generally copyright. He's a divider usually material. Saw a man attacked late years for the laboratory my life if you will which is of course as he's mine if you want. So I think that by its very nature one of the build up today can't buy Thanks for every. Other year history goes bye bye textbook every time there's a new scientific discovery Mariupol is written in the short story. The textbook which I might add is copyrighted. Which school system is your home base or something other than. My

theory on which is more likely not to be copyright. I used to prepare this news to avoid the restriction on. The company organization. Why rushing for certain amendments and changes in the middle of the bio register. Let me say first of all that the general line taken by the ad hoc living by the word separately organizations that is mile long good bye. Has been before. And then the copyright act and I think it was planted in 1990 not the basically over all since then these overall support were already there is done. We support the idea of the Copyright Act. What we are asking for this is the bill as

presented to the siren hollows by the register. These are not much better. Practices which is really what we think will not be restrained she owes the PA person teaching and using copyrighted material. What we are seeking specifically are amendments in the very front of the room quickly talking speaking now and I think we the ad hoc committee. Leave this to the ad hoc committee consider the great number of organisations who are generally agreed in their views on what should be done about copyright vision act. Which are of course when the panel think their own position or modify. Position to suit their special needs I have to say this because my or the. American Council on Education spans the peculiar situation with respect to copyrighted material. Colleges

and Universities like school systems use copyrighted material using their teaching using their research. He has access to without allowing for the system. I go through an elaborate system of getting information. So far. He however colleges universities are also producing copyright material. I have a university professor you know who write university presses the print copyright. So for the lesser stamp this is true of elementary and secondary education although the rate many teachers who actually got tiny royalties from the writing text of the production of educational television. So you know let me run quickly. Over the issues which are fair education generally not just educational broadcasting.

One of the News this is like saying issue of fair use how much copyrighted material can you you know what condition. Another one. Would come by the frequently right but that is the problem. Photocopy with you if you want a special case of fairies or making a copy on their servers or in some cases of complete workers for classroom use when there's a problem duration how long should work remain. Copyright. Others which I'm a five time job but which have not been of so much concern for the copyright to the ad hoc that they are in the manufacturing of the access to large powerful material. Private fibers. Plays. In the archives and what of the extent to which they in the copyright access he had to. Issue the minimum specs are advantages. Problem with you lot of concern today. These are just

talking are just numerous a list of things we're concerned about out of time by fair use. Actually Fair Use it as. Me. Could be called the heart of all our talk about how much copyrighted material. Can be used without infringing on a person's copyright. You think position one of permanent. Materialism copyright. Law no one can use it without for me and the some publishers will print along with the copyright and I was no part of this maybe maybe reproduce. Maybe reproduce without permission. OK so. I don't actually practice of course. You may remember that was a part of it and I quote from it qualify for review. They redid my classroom copy. And x are a reasonable life whatever that is. And so for the reason that no one is going to challenge you on this Tuesday. I think I'm not a

lawyer but then I. Probably have a fairly old legal not very living in these approaches to laws like going to take note of those things which may be technically illegal which are so small as not to be of consequence. Put it back. And forth. Publishers are going to shoot because somebody read the following. By William Carlos Williams which is in copyright the national permission to use it why should. I want it says that. This is an example he was of fair use. We can write The These are question what is in the bill with the bill as proposed by the register first time plus the fair use words for use in the statute as ferry's not here you know you can. Put our foot in with no further comment. And. Where Jaime appear fine thank this is this is nice but. It was a good point farm out

the fire. Raisers perhaps more about them than are necessary for the better. I'm not a spamming the provisions of section 1 6. The fair use of the copyrighted work is not an infringement of copyright. Well the first question you ask is what is fair use. And I suppose what I say can be done though you better ask your lawyer. There we start teachers could now write of the use of using X or for school systems and be running to his lawyer every time. Last years are very good. Very. Ad hoc in that he. Has proposed language with which finalist I don't look for us to search for but to respond without a point of saying that. Their use of the copyright. Were. To the extent reasonably necessary or incidental to legitimate. Further suggest. I doesn't say to these legitimate purposes only but some fan. Criticism comment

news or morning teaching scholarship or research. These are fairly broad. Statements I think the phrase on jazz is not intended to be living exclusively live where they unlocked it and the lawyers may find the ad hoc and they also is concerned about the presumption of being in the favor of the user case and cases of charge under fair use as played. Again they walked and saw the lawyers about not only against this guy but this is the ferry's problem. I'm going to teach are you not. A specific case of this and one that is sufficiently specific that magnums Love Minus one proposes relating to the copying of X or it is arguable and wondered if you simply say Bach and a fair use. This covers copy there. We're not devices for copying as you well know which can and reproduce very quickly. Carry on as a friend.

Somehow to be put on camera our our scanning device and we can use these photos popping some of the sheen very memory but isn't there anything that she'd like. So we have we have. An E something here that may go. Further in their lives of our affair you some oh maybe today to define there for. Yeah somebody is urging specific language with there's respect for making these for educational use let me hand the word qualification for educational purposes here. And then what's important he that my document is not assume everybody copy anything I offer something that is sort of vaguely educational language just points for certain I think it's important to have mine. I'm going to take time to read to him I have seen the Spangler visions especially when I was six. There's not a French was the language of the ad hoc committee is

proposed as modern French copyright for anyone lawful and five or six line forms of the transmitted forms or exhibition copyrighted work. So even those originally consumable of fine use such as work book exercise problems or answer sheets for that life span. They can make no more copy or fossil record of the work force that uses fireline there are three. Be a reasonable number of copies of phone records of excerpts of quotations from the work provided the subjects are not substantially like performing to their source. I hear nothing for qualification. So we for the purposes of such persons or organizations own teaching performances exhibitions and transmissions for horse work so you can actually there with a researcher for archival purposes provided the numbers of copyrighted material sold released for profit. No direct or indirect private gain is involved. And this is language that is a major point of

controversy. Well between users you want and producer of copyrighted material and he read the language he does not intend to permit the first to reproduce textbooks at will or to use take material and substitute for O for I could be purchased in the commercial market. The testimony the ad hoc committee tried to make this clear. Hockenberry has been working on your as you pointed out. Also with the register copyrights office does suggest ways in which language could be incorporated into slavery for the judiciary committee which would often crowd like this player this is not intended to tolerate these. Use of the for making cars. Should not be something to intrude on commercial materials legitimately and easily available. Marshall chan. What we're trying to do frankly decipher my Latin is to turn very good teaching lighting

by hurrying Peter to see a new boy published in The Atlantic Monthly and say I'd like to have the study but very few my life for the CIA. I'm not in the New York Times to say that I need to write in New York. I'd like to have this use in my social studies class so. I could go into the slang I'm trying to avoid doing so because. Wiley time you that question the racial problem. Yeah documentary believes that the ration of 50 like last 50 years both the right to long. And the nerves of those they read it is. There are. Gangs on the grounds of the difficulty determining when one material is in copyright. Some rappers be used to. Try to cover the other two while watching the tape I think the main thing I keep my eye

on is that the the ad hoc committee is not trying to get a free ride for education it is trying to get access for education. We're not trying to live on the cheap and perfectly willing to buy textbooks buy they'll. Buy a perfectly willing to. Buy subscribe to newspapers and might. What we're trying to do is is to encourage the use of these signs in the classroom quickly and easily without feeling that we are doing something they really illegal. Doing something that is perhaps. Sharp practice or bootlegging there are a number of Dorothy are you tried. Floor. We do not want the teacher feel that. She cannot or dare not use a material like she she horrors schools us to be open to the loss of Iraq.

I think really the most publishers are going to engage and publishers are in business. So those filmmakers I think make sure that the book seller they're proud. But I think that it's so easy and so tight. There are seasons of school systems they don't do anything that will cause any problem. We would prefer to see a lot of that under the regime like ours clarified. So that no teacher need feel that he or she is in danger of either making from all over and being in trouble for engaging in practice that will handle the instructional process. Summary right. Actually. This is also one about our service. Do you care about winning on your series. Good Lord. The practicalities. I hear sure that you try to get here. I'm going with my one. Keep in mind that what they are that is the game is not yours. I will

put it up so dramatically as a freedom of speech but I actually do copyright material for copyrighted material for some instructional purpose like thank you. Her smile her now the broadcasters status in the popular vision of Jean a little more. I very much hope that there's nobody in this outside of the room and educational broadcasting. Doesn't your realize and voids count. I say this not only for copyright law. We. Also can hear you Jane excuse me. That's our eternal problem with Jane. Because I've been busy in this for five years. Lastly because I have been bogged down in the broadcast. There just is no question that every organization uses copyrighted material that they must use copyright carries with the conditions under which those we were curious must be

available. Educational broadcasting is going to do a general very important and this disaster is alert to the fact the Copyright Act friends and I did hear early 1900s this is raising many problems it's long before education where you know one of the four educational television more than a year means that the words of the statute the words of the act which tell you what you can do with what the writer who owns it. And I have no direct relation to broadcasting the general educational broadcast in particular. This makes problems. That means that there should be clarifications for clarification as we go and what every other country in the world in the last 20 years should have to and so I think that the exercise of the copyright office has gone through over the last five years. It's terribly important to do and I think that all of us have to assume that this clarification is necessary and the third proposition I

think. I think there's no question of the need for my view I'm sure it was on television or radio there's no question about the need for a vision but I think the third proposition is that the publishers authors and composers representatives of the creative people people are certainly there. And I. Feel very strongly especially the terms of educational broadcasting the creative people who create these works are entitled to compensation for the use of those words on television. They point to the fact that teachers are paid principals of paid producers of pain technicians are paid generous of they all are paid in educational television the contributed that contribute to it except perhaps the most creative people of all people who make the pictures write the books write the music and those that are in with them in disseminating this to the public that make it possible out of these materials these people it seems are not there. And they accuse educational broadcasting of

taking the position that they ought not to be aiding and in essence obtaining subsidy from a creative person. Now now there's no question as far as educational broadcasting is concerned with Recognize of their contribution to recognize a creative person. People are entitle to eat to live. Much as educational broadcasters would recognize that this is not theirs and we will not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. And we've recognized all of this but we have repeated it over and over you know we can't. Go along with the Copyright Act. Which either sets up artificial barriers that are possible to overcome to be able to use copyrighted material on the air when there are absolutely reasonable and necessary and desirable and second quality care for midnight which in essence would make authors composers or

societies to levy substantial fees that in essence could be one way to cation budgets and therefore will lose their use. Last of all we have to follow this disaster's statement over and over he said we cannot let the educational broadcaster in the position where even if he exercises or good faith about what he's doing he's subject to substantial fines. We know the kinds of things we just can't do this is educators or as broadcasters and I think everybody knows what the jury thinks it has now against both sides here. There are sides of that problem. Congress has indicated strongly that what it was looking for is a compromise. They see both sides. They see the public interest in education and broadcasting quite clearly. They also see that either by the port city on the road posing o o some recompense from what they sympathize with the fact that unless you do give orders. So

you reckon it's humane to silence and deter creativity. The man who writes a song for school broadcasting I suppose would go off and work the agency instead of the. Men. But what Congress is this is really searching for is a compromise between the two which on the one hand will create the conditions for of the ability. And the other will not. But are you need to deal with it all. And we've been trying to help them reach this. We've been trying to help them reach the same thing in our. Sense of saying that there are many kinds of uses where we just do not think there can be any kind of pain. Without creating such conditions. That there are those uses which commercially I feel like the school. And even in a very little help in his work to

obtain more prominence and help his earnings on these kinds of uses. Where the kinds of things that would be involved are not terribly important. We feel that we should have the right to go ahead with consume and use them. There are other kinds of uses where we have been perfectly willing to admit that they might from our joining Russia years. These are such things as the use of the dramatic right. So we played squarely so that even if you in the mine were still on education where you know television this may not crease their use on commercial television but maybe determine if there was a very carefully not requested those kinds of uses and we think that this reaches a suitable compromise. Not on and on. Understandably the publishers and all of those who are taking issue with what we said. In general what they have been looking for is a consent mechanism or a clearinghouse mechanism which almost every use will pay for and where the author a great deal more control

over what was published. And every facet of its use. You know I think that we ought to go back for one minute if we can do what the present access there's a great deal of. Mystery about it. It was an act of the 19 0 9. We can have differences in interpretation since the words obviously don't. But I think that there are a couple of basics that do come through the exemptions in the press in the present right in my mind and I think almost everybody else is mine. But the broadcast non-dramatic literary muse musical material over the year educational radio or television station. We're talking about popular classical music books of poetry and I Taught Me About plays when I talk about musical comedy rubber. We're not talking about motion pictures. So please tell me about the reading of books or poem or the playing of the symphony or jazz over television.

The next problem with the act and this is where the real problem I suppose lies is when it comes to recording the recordings or making mobile recordings or any kind of recording device. Because the exemption specifically only applies to a live broadcast because it's a live performance. I think anybody has read the Act and read the history. You'll find a great deal of variation on but I think that almost everybody would probably go along with the feeling that the recording is probably OK in almost any court and no one would say it's all right. It's never been a case on it but I think that this is probably true. That a pre recording. Of a radio or television program for a subsequent broadcaster would not be for the yak. On the other hand I think that there probably would be some sort of close to unanimity on the point that most of the use of mobile recordings for national distribution on a

field basis over educational television or any night educational television probably doesn't come close to violating the rights of the copyright holder and would require clearances for things for the record I think that this is this is fairly well documented and I think that Fred seabird the relevant whether treatise on this. I would agree. There is a middle ground where there is extreme doubt where very many of them taking This is where you record for repeated local broadcasts or exchange with other stations Buffalo in the state network or other network consumption. I don't think anybody can answer on this one. I've always felt the educational broadcasters you take the position of the was quite favorable to them and is in the public interest and I think that most broadcasters as far as I can tell have taken their position and complains but not really geisha and I think that they should continue to take that position until there has been some additional clarification. There is also I would

point out one further doctrine of the present time and I was a sold out from the fair use limits to science and. I think that we are taking the position fairly consistently across the country as far as I know all your operations that the use of exercise the use of lines of poetry in the use of the verse of the song in the midst of criticism was used as examples of various other cold anything more than that. The use of them as examples of the political purposes comes close to not being fair use and that they watch. Now I think there's no question about what's happening. Casting from the very beginning educational broadcasters first in radio and television were not terribly adept at copyright copyright you first when I heard what you've just written then. And I think there was a great deal of freedom as Catherine BMI was in the year for licenses publishers in New York with wearing clearances almost completely. And nobody was terribly concerned as

long as the audience was small but the audience has grown and the number of stations grown. And now they are concerned now the publishers are complaining that here is a gigantic use of work without paying and probably is a very handy place in their view to recompense the serious composers artists who are not they don't commercial television because that work is not used on commercial Tello. I think in the back of their minds especially the music feels perhaps just as a place to find subsidy for the serious composer of them they can find stations. This is a different viewpoint. A lot of our problems. What is it that is in the present act and I will speak very fast to slow the present Act is very simple. It's the only exemption areas. I should be is an instructional television when it's only instructional television reporting is used within six months of the person before so I'm sorry this is the propose using I'm not talking about the proposed bill that is before Congress at this point.

Oh this is all that will be recognized instructional television in school hours or in class reunions. It doesn't even matter if it's the home viewing schedule of course it has to be for it in school use. And you can make a recording but the recording has to be utilized within six months and the school. Well what is it that we are and there is also in the statute a reference to fair use which these are just about which day. As it was before and I think that what I would like to say is Where where are our recommendations. They're going for directions for the first one is very simple. At one point some of those congressional history there was a specific reference to education research news reporting. In connection with fair use I would like to see that we cooperated like to see something in the statute that recognizes specifically that educational use is a fair use and that gives us a little bit more specificity about generalizations. So I think what we are

very firm in supporting this instructional television exemption for any kind of use of any kind or. A live basis inside. A classroom. We feel like while a copyright office has proposed it the site is still subject to attack by the commercial copyright interest and we feel very good that this is got to be there tomorrow or asking for the right to use copyrighted materials non-dramatic literary and musical in particular. But nighttime broadcast from now on in school broadcasting and will put some safeguards around. What is the thing before my hand I hate and I will resist what provider will permit the amateur trio the college faculty of cast or any of these old thing but what not for me. Playing playing by paid musicians. It's a very easy thing. This is due to meet the accusation that the musicians are buried there. Why would you not need

exposure. This has some validity to it and I think LIVE right after this. Musicians are a series of phone calls but what it does from it is what most local stations will be doing as far as we know. And it specially in university and school stations. But the. Last. I don't know that we are asking for is a recording. Right right to use recordings locally just as long as their education when desired. We see no reason why you have destroyed at the end of the year we will do so next year. It should go on as long as you can and it's just a waste of money through options to say. The last thing which we have not here. Both of which is coming up very soon will be some sort of free exchange or exchange of recordings between stations or on local state networks where there is no charge no commercial. Phone. We think we have a pretty good chance of training or a substantial part of these given the support

given to help in getting the drug. And. We hope there will be a little of their support from each and every one of you just as soon as we can thank you. A fatal. We have an audience's afternoon a very important person on the committee. His name is Harry rose and feel it's not very often that Harry's on that side of the fence is usually behind the desk. We're feeling questions. I wanted you to know that he was here. Harry would you stand up please sir. And if there were to be a very tough legal question that anybody here doesn't want to. Answer I'm sure Harry will try his hand at it too but I think that we have enough expertise here maybe to do it anyway anytime you want to tell me and here you do regardless who anybody else. All right this is a free for all and I'm keeping real close tabs on this. Watch either I have 10 minutes left before we

go here present time for me. And so we have question was struck by some personal things a. Person didn't. Where were you. Whoa whoa whoa. You are. I don't I think this this this this is two halves this question this question is when you have. The. Copyright material included in the program would you have to get the consent of the musical publisher that there's this kind of thing. The answer is this is exactly what I think you have in mind too that I think the real question here though is when the original broadcaster feels that that this is something that goes along with this broadcasting schedule and I think there has to be

some coordination between the original broadcaster and the school that's using the record but as far as the content is concerned this is fickle something which is something we strictly happen in mine. Oh. Yeah. I can't agree with you more. And now I have this any exchange unless you do it on a live network which happens sometimes I try to get your keys over as fast as you can. Have personally reviews in the local state live make a point just as strongly as we can that this just has no bearing on the educational toll may apply to commercial networks and the late broadcasts and even local radio commercial stations with educational programs it's just completely on except that any file which at a year doesn't make any difference really has to be something substantially longer. As far as we're concerned it should be just as long as the program.

Let's be clear we're not asking for this is what's in the proposal Bill and I think they've done very very well by us because they first were not going to plan anything and then they put a six month limitation or is it going to be happy with this. Obviously we're not. Or who else over here yesterday. Me. Well let me say it this way. The educators have said very often that perhaps the main problem isn't money but it's the material in the publishers of said perhaps the main problem isn't money but a sense that it's the author's control. I think there are some considerations of money probably on both sides. I think though that it would be very handy to have the accolade like that because then the publishers wouldn't have to worry about the commitments to the authors because

that would be taken care of in the statute and everybody would be happy. That's. Right. Right right. Very sad. Right. He's the one who's very light service. Oh well that's right

too. I think that to answer your question on a political level the answer is yes. We've gone through a long and hard five years here drafting redrafting as I read another 20 minutes I think I would love to have taken you stage by stage and sing all the rest of the things that various Trask various counter proposals and proposals. I just don't see in the cards especially useless Congress or anybody else is considering giving somebody free access to material for use on commercial stations. There has been at least one judicial decision which very specifically held there even though a commercial station was won by the nonprofit organization and broadcast sustaining programs that this year did not come with. The prostate cancer. I think this will always be continued I think that the congressional representatives and I dare to feel so

strongly that sometimes I'm sympathetic to Terry where you use. The materials of somebody for a commercial purpose that it's a very difficult and exemption. Commercial stations have all kinds of arrangements with the music people publishers to do it. As far as the University of Michigan is concerned if you would put your programs on Educational Television Radio Stations. Except for the fact that we have the problems of the syndicated the quarterings. That you would have very little trouble. So you used a couple of state stations and if you did it without charge I hope that this is what we accomplish in the exchange. Normally when I. Was curious about one aspect of the poll as you stated these were faculty members if they would come under the provisions and

their salary was actually a calming wall I suppose devoted to television this would be one thing. On the other hand if they were just. Family members whose salary was a general teaching sound that happens to be wildly areas that the register was she's got. I mean I don't know where it's going to go to the point that I just want to point when there have been statements saying that a general salary paid to a faculty advisor for teaching is not considered a paid performance they have already stated that Harry did you want to add that. On this point and current broadcaster expressed any opinion. It would seem to me that this would not go through an opera service program. Many of us are buying more from broadcast and they might have rather strong feeling that they look to us to help. They're probably here for me to be out.

I would say this about them so that when I sit at the back the commercial broadcasters one remember please that commercial broadcasters are. Primarily copyright owners and users. Commercial television programmes are vast but the copyright works IF you very much concern that with their positions even this is where they spent most of their efforts. They have worked at all kinds of arrangements so they can pay for what they get on the public affairs. I would suggest commercial networks have never had any trouble in clearing any of the stuff that never fall under any of the exemptions I think and I think that was generally cation television a lot of luck. Well let me say that again that the clear clarify this that the registering his proposed bill. Did go so far as to say instructional. You did not just put the parameter there at the end of. Non-commercial. So actually commercial instructional programming on commercial station would be included is this not right Harry. If the station wanted to

or any other. Yes. I think it got us all puzzled about what kind of exact you're talking about. Right there. And then use what. You know.

I mean it's highly allays was right in. Stretching the limits of fair use but you're not you're not trying or not trying to in effect to run the commercial record producers out of business I think it's hardly reasonable for the record producer to say we can't help you know where Harry's gonna buy more record I think you can play a recording of The Takeaway on vinyl highly perishable product on one play and the credentials that would protect the writer and make it acceptable for the students on a landing basis and. Your lawyer might have some different venue I think I think this is a legitimate fair use. On the present law. I think under the old law. I think it would be much clearer for you to do it go to the union for an educational purpose. You're not doing it for profit or for sale. Not someone these listed may be that would be a different matter. If someone is yeah then you're competing with a

commercial record maker you're doing this to to make to make the product available it was the same way you make a book available. And since the record is somewhat more heard from anyone what. Do you're going to. They're protecting the library but they're less the same kind of thing we run into with the foreign language laboratory cakes she said. We think if there are all kinds of audio visual uses that we've been having workshops helping teachers to learn how to do and to make when suddenly we realize that all the workshops if I'm not if the new laws passed because most of the things we teach teachers do they won't be able to be one of the new law. This is now. Harry don't you want to comment on this I want you to say something before three o'clock. Don't you want to say something. Like that. Problems fade away very reasonable there. Where we are now and what I write what I was asking. All right well you lose you.

Now. You. Are. Back in the sand. What. About You know I think what happened when caught. By a lively letter written by the book at one time or three like that. I see that you know that's very well put. Thank you very much I think we were just a minute. Scott. All right I was trying to make your deadline. Will you wait that may have something with it. All right let's take five more minutes if we banned. All right another question here. I want to ask. Why are you doing that.

The restriction of being. My wife fighter or wife or. This. Or that or like and to get by. But I really think the place is not going to get by because this gets to be a lot of places like Times when state is there permitted under the Copyright Act. No there's no question in my mind that you are not permitted to record or read anything to make you this time. But why tell them why. There is just no authorisation for it in the copyright law. Douglas says that the dramatic it's true but it's not a non-dramatic literary a musical material and you don't necessarily have the right to record that kind of stuff this way.

I would say you know when you get a lead that there is another problem though and that's the custom of the trade. Ordinarily when you buy a film you get some sort of receipt or an invoice or a statement saying what can be used for and very most motion picture company that leases it to yourselves you the player will tell you that you are permitted to do certain things with it. I think this is been done a great deal I think as practice fills up that's why they are harder for either commercial or educational film companies to stop it. And last of all I'm not so sure I could tell that you did it in the first place. Time for another want to write some serious work life one is so strange. Network lice let's take our For example where you think boy me and you have several stations broadcasting simultaneously. Delay.

I would say that under our record we exchange recommendation which is to come. This would be permissible. Not as a local broadcast but as a weekly. Dish you expose. All right and what we're reporting right here. Late for work. I was like oh yes a question. I think under the copyright law or under the CATV actually secret solely to copyright law there is a provision in the present which provides that the picking up of a station's transmittal and saying to your father and extending the broadcast area with no additional charge anybody is permitted. Now does this answer your question. Well let's try to do it right you know.

All services we have here is the only record I have no. One here to the poem. Wow. Well you know the record has been very lenient with us in the way about close circuit at least he didn't have any idea of doing this until their house committee came along and after the number of sessions we've had with him we were delighted in the last draft of the bill to know that he was really going so far as the saying the close circuit was would be permitted he can see the sense of this but what worries them is when you get into the the open sort of Canary you know then it suits pretty well and you see and I mean it does but minimal I would on it is just too specific as you get to kind of property rights involved. You have the copyright of the materials in the program and the program itself may be copyright. Now the real question is is it that it violates the copyrights of the materials I would explain very much Dad what's in the program. There's a file like the copyright on the program.

I can only say this this is now being. Fought over and litigated by CBS and the courts as to whether or not you have a copyright right wingers see the CATV operation picking up your program and using you. That has not been decided and I don't think anybody has a guess about the outcome on that one I think will have a bearing on what your top. Answer. Was. Well it's no different here actually going to would be for something used in the classroom because we had insisted all along there that I TV was simply an extension of the classroom were not what I TV is not television for if we're concerned it's education it's televised education it's just part of an extension of the classroom.

This is not an answer but that's not your question. That problem you just write novels of mine I'm going to be regardless of popular opinion. I mean take a copyright out right out of the school systems there are many school systems taking a free ride of Education told you right now embedding For example solar really doesn't. It's a question of the relationship between the station and

the school district you see rather than. All. Well maybe somebody overstated the problem to mean. What you want to say about that gene. Now I guess when I say I recognize this problem I wrestled with it back and forth for a long time and I think that we will come out with something that will make sense both ways here. Hate to hazard a guess about what is right now. One more question. There. Are. While it's unfortunate I think that the real answer is we have a distinguished way we've lumped closer to twenty five hundred open circuit than all the rest of it in one place and said these are all the same kinds of things I guess we can either larger or smaller audiences and they should be treated the same way. And as far as I know in all of the recommendations that we have exactly the same way they should.

And we're fighting for twenty five hundred to be in the same category of closed circuit because after all it's open circuit and comes through origination and it's close from the point of view of perception. Now I would say you're leaving and I want to close before everybody gets out of here and I want to say one last word to you and that is we haven't said anything to you about what are you doing from here on out. Let me say now that the Congress as you well know is home. This is your golden opportunity between now and January 1 to do something and the something we suggest you do is in the words of dream. Earlier today was educate your congressman. And the way to do it I suppose one way suggested was to invite him to come to your station to see the kinds of things you're doing and then to show him that that actually that these kinds of things will be adversely affected if the proposed law which is not being being considered were to be passed and I think we must get this over to here and this is a vital. Role of a ploy. We had to depend upon you people in the

field. Congress is not too much used to denote national organizations. They think too much will go from Washington this doesn't mean to us but the fact that the people I really listen to the folks back home if you will. We can't do anything beyond that point. I mean you gotta be the rest of the picture and we count on you with everything we have. To help us. Let me say that there have been two items passed out to you today in a way of materials. One is a staff memorandum and left it. It says here from the educational broadcasting for me or something like that I don't have it before me. There really isn't any such animal except that I think it was formed at 1:30 today in the sense that it's an ad hoc committee and her interlocking Directorate of all subcommittees that are now operating both and the radio division and in the end he ts and he and the e and and and

CIC and. And that and so what we're trying to do is to get all these folks call in air how to marry within the ad hoc committee at least an ad hoc committee of educational television and radio fog. Looking at this picture will still go on with all of our sub committee units but there will be this unlocking agency here to help clear the path ahead for all of us. Thank you very much for being a good audience and I hope you will go into 315 very backward.