Exploring the child's world II; 5

The Duquesne University Alumni Association presents. Exploring a child's world. The child is father to the man. And as we hope for a world of men of good will we must look to the conditions of the child's where to achieve it. So we search for the laws ways and means the sources of the capable spontaneously hole of doubt. It is not strange that the world of the disturbed child throws light on childhood in general. Although Father Francis Duffy Professor of Sociology at Duquesne University was not at first

looking for this light when he started working with a disturbed child. He found however that it is not that the disturbed a delinquent child is completely removed from society rather that his position is more extreme and so its obviousness offers us a sharper clearer insight into the world of children to share the fruit of his research. Father Duffy and the Duquesne University Alumni Association present a series of recorded interviews with delinquent children followed by a short discussion with Father Duffy's guest in which the child and his problems are explored for insight. And now here is Father Duffy. I find it somewhat surprising in these interviewing experiences to discover that boys are much less inclined to talk about sexual matters to an adult. In our girls the boy in the interview that follows is a confirmed homosexual at the age of 12 according to all corroborative information available. It will be noted that the boy never refers to

this at all. Consequently I felt it would be ill advised to probe into this area however helpful it might turn out to be. After a few interviews he might be persuaded to discuss this. If it is a problem to him we have found that if a person has a problem that causes him concern and embarrassment he often finds it more painful to discuss it talk about it than he does to live with it or suffer from it. At some point however it becomes more painful to live with a problem than it is to talk about it. And usually at the same point the person will discuss it. He will communicate his troubles to someone whom he trusts. He does this for any of a variety of reasons. For one thing it is natural for human beings to communicate. If I find something exciting or important happens to me I get good news or bad news promotion or a defeat. I am inclined to communicate this to someone I like and trust within 24 hours. Also we note that if someone wants to communicate a

secret to us which we are not allowed to tell other people we would just as soon not have the burden of the communication because we like to talk to other people. This aspect of the boy's life is not brought out in the interview that is the homosexual tendency and multiple experiences. It's only mentioned here in order to give additional insights into the boy story of his life. With this in mind then we can evaluate several items more objectively. He has apparently attracted to an institutional type of living. Secondly he's a loner. He prefers to be alone and he's alone most of the time. Most boys who get into trouble do so with other boys also in more than 95 percent of the cases. Some adult was involved either as a Fagan or offense. This boy plays it alone again. He's attracted to the nursing profession. This we would point out although it doesn't need it. This is a noble profession and for this reason we

would try to divert this type of trial from even considering it as a career. Another point observes his father beating up an old Army buddy who molested Joe's little sister and he rather seemed to enjoy this again. The boy has contemplated suicide and has taken some steps to kill himself at least on one occasion. If it were not for the prompt action of a juvenile court supervisor he might have bled to death after cutting his wrist with a dinner plate. This is complicated by the fact that possibly having been to the hospital where the people were nice to him jail was just saying Take me back to the hospital where the folks are nice. Jail was an interesting little boy. Let's listen to him as he explores his work world. We might reserve our opinions of him for we will get only a brief picture of his personality and very little of his character traits. Your name is Joe. You used to go to school and of course you change school in the fourth grade. You're 12 years old you're still in fourth grade.

Yes you must have been held back a couple times. What happened to those. What do you think happened. It's a fun couple years. Joe do you come from a big family or little family or one big feeling. How many children were part of the city dilutive kids were we ever here before in juvenile court. Yes right here this time throwing with food before that what was it took somebody you really did it or did they just say you did he really did it. How much did you get I mean this time you took that $20. Was that from a house or a store or a school or what was from the house you were a burglar there. Yes yes so do you do much dealings you know. How old were you when you began. Well how much do you think you stole so far. Altogether for

$30 I see used all 21 times. You think that all the rest of your stealing amount about you. You ever steal any other things like pens or pencils or pantheons Pans who is stuff like that. What about roller skates in the theater to kids about cars you ever break in any cars. Once if you were with somebody else. Are we all by yourself. I'm always by myself. You have a companion to love with in the room here for this. You seem to be happier when you're by yourself. Well I wouldn't call it happy. You're not a happy boy. I see you just take stuff and forget it. Tell me something that happened when you were real little Joe. We were well if you try you'll remember something before you started school. Remember this was before I was the

fear UNMOVIC with her holding the so she came to me further. He went in there we get drinks and you go through what we need to say yes the boy can do for pope he was carrying me in a minute I asked him where I was just looking all over for me and she looked in the perp knew I was there I said. I know now why you're here the last two times. What about the time before that I broke into a sports shop with a girl I was in a way through there you went to Thornhill training school yes. How did you like it there. Well too bad I got a couple room for some item that we movies and Thursdays and Fridays and the like there how do you get along home Joe. Your mother and dad seem to like you or not like you enough for you. Yes they like me. What about here. What's already here. When I didn't like the way I looked at him so was into it. You had a fight who want me. He actually did you. Did

somebody tell me that you try to hurt yourself or me. Maybe it was somebody else. You tell me the truth. How about coming to truth. Bruising man. You're mad inside. Now what do you do outside I was a cook but I broke a dish and start to Paris but I couldn't kill myself. You really did. Yes and did you lose consciousness. Did you. Yes I don't know who I was that somebody looked in the hole and came in slightly thinks this was over at the point I came to when you tired of learning or did you do this for attention or did you want to die. Yes. Why would you want to die you're only 12 years old. You know could I sometimes thought I didn't have much to live for something like that. What's so wrong in your life that you want to kill yourself at this time. I miss my family got a lot of trouble but of course if you kill yourself you won't get your family back

and I don't think it will get you out of trouble either you know get me out of trouble or at least I won't be around to suffer this. I mean coming up to be six feet under with you like I don't love and never really thinking I could get him so bad I think autonomy times there's this friend of my dad my dad used to be a new army with the need to go out drinking together. He was always you know asked where his name was he was missing a little sister. She thought he was going to kill us as you can with father here but with three he told me to come to her house again I see your dad as it is a pretty big drinker. What about your mother you haven't mentioned her. She's skinny she's nice mother. Yes you like her. Yes you told me that you like you did you ever tell her you like yes. I've read a bit of that hospital you know thinking joint it further with

the nurses who are nice to you. I hear all the nurses they were free and they gave you a lot of attention I imagine. Not what you call what you know they just what would you like to be when you grow up you. I did want to be a TV mechanic but if the grenade I weighed took when you were nursing you know they start with the little stuff the first day then they come up I think I'm to nice you used to feel you were studying to be a nurse. Yeah I read the lessons by myself. Your interest in being a nurse develops and you were in the hospital. No captain standing buddy you know see first I was really starting to be a doctor. I didn't know you could be a nurse because it seems your job she's You really had to give I think a thousand dollars to be a regular nurse I just be playing nurse. I like to help people and do people seem to like to help you know but there. From talking to Joe I get the feeling that you stole a lot more than you've told me about. Yes I did and I think you started a lot earlier than you said you did last year.

Yes. You really started when you're five or six and I was about nine got cars burned apartments a burning house took me all of porches in the wood with letters up you know I just looked in them and put them back in case it was a human you chicks and said I wanted to be the first one to get the weed houses. Took many witness store when the cash register. I was too dumb to. I just took all the ones in the stack of one thing it took a 20 dollar bill but there was a bit of the green stuff. I guess we don't get it at all and you know when we fall. Did you ever stealing bicycles. Yes how many do you think. But every time we away this year we're going to petition to have your own way by bike. Yes I go from the key trucks to clear and I would they want a bicycle. And you mentioned fliers you have to tell me about that a little bit. Went through a traveling apartment no smoking next to it went down a hole between the worlds. Finally somebody said there was and panic at the last I see.

What about the future. A good chance of going home to George Junior Republic with all the things that you've done a moment it seems to me that you'd be right back here again soon really know what would change that me and how would you go about changing topics and can you stop you. I see my good to achieve the public that's the same thing as being home. But eventually you'll have to go home again. How are you going to stop yourself from stealing. Do you have that figured out yet. Yeah how do you figure if you get this way you keep your hands to yourself. If we were getting even with trouble that's pretty good figure. Keep your eyes to yourself. If we want to know what trouble there from start. You think you might work a little bit harder on the books on the schoolwork. You just can't pick it up. It goes too fast for you. Yes

maybe some young boy in college might be able to tutor you take your side and you will be a lessons were given I don't know teacher mentioned it but I further don't want nobody committed to us you know. Well now that we're done finished it's almost time to go. What would you like to change in what you said you could not tell me that the real number of automobiles that you broke into a thousand school somewhere between a hundred and a thousand dollars. Really. But of course it was degree day mostly when I went to school on the way to school or on the way back from school. But I went to school twice a day so I would be taking a course for times day. But it all went to hell I would quit it you know and I was here last and there was talk of three guys I see and let me ask you this just what kind of boy do you think you are punk. Honestly you don't think you're likable you know like that but I'm a chump a bum

if you're worthwhile about the outfit. You're sad you think you're going to be rehabilitated. I don't know about that. I could be good shut up and do what they tell me. You do go to church and going to church for about five years. But if you're sending wincingly Well it's about time to go to bed now. We'll go to 10 o'clock and is there anything else that you think you did that was not all OK. Welcome back. And now joining Father Duffin to discuss the features of this child's world is his guest Mr. Kenneth equips supervisor of counseling and allied services of the Allegheny County domestic relations court in Pittsburgh and lecturer in sociology at the university. Today we're happy to welcome Mr. Kenneth Webster of the Domestic Relations Court with us he has quite a good background in experience and

in training in this area as a former policeman a member of the United States Navy a worker at the juvenile court where he was a probation officer and supervisor then transferred over to adult senior probation work for Allegheny County and is now supervisor with domestic relations court. It's nice to see you Ken. Do you find it from your experience with these younger boys during your time at juvenile court is this a fairly typical boy. Joe I would say Father Duffin that this boy is typical if you will remember just where he is in life just about ready to be committed to some institution. He's typical in the sense of his outlook on life as fences. But you have brought him to the point where we feel he can't return home. It's obvious that it's that little chance he will go home and I don't think that he

really wants to go home in spite of what was said there. Yes it seemed to me that this boy has run a real gamut. He started when he was 9 years old the first he said 11 and then as he got to trust me a bit more he told me nine years of age you probably started when he was seven or six. He's been through the whole gamut of stealing things that were usable things that were expendable. Giving away some of his threats he has more recently got into the suicidal kick as a result probably of his hospital experience. He went to have his tonsils out and kind of fell in love with the care he got there and wanted to go back and he cut his wrists with a plate that he had broken smashed and cut his wrists. I think that to go back there again. Then he wanted to be a TV repairman. I guess in that way hoping he would avoid school he probably thinks this is an easy job and now he switched over to becoming a boy a nurse he said he studied at for a year I'm sure he has not but he's fallen in love with his idea of becoming a male nurse

and. It seems to me that this boy is a real pretty full case. What was it you said desperation was emphatic in this. And I think it's so for the mother without knowing about this that the boy's mother has tried to harm herself several times and now the boy is thinking about suicide I don't know whether it's an attention grabber or whether it is a sincere effort to get out of his life as he says. Father Duffy It would seem almost logical for this boy to contemplate suicide and certainly to risk it. I say that because I doubt as you imply that he really is ready for suicide. But of all the miserable unfortunate things that happened there one bright spot and that was his institution experience. Yes when he did make a suicide attempt or when he got into the hospital whatever way he did it

this was useful. This was worthwhile and that he went to another institution I'm sure that he would get along with her very well. He can make certain adjustments. He does have pride. You noticed when he was asked about the rover States he wanted you immediately to realize that he was on the upper level and then when you finally asked him about the number of cars I thought that a little pride there and you have to give him credit in the unwelcome area he was rather shrewd. The boy does have possibilities if we can just find the right channel that he can see. I think that is a good I thought I did a keep before people's minds is the hope that that something is going to be done for children like this it isn't just a hopeless thing. Oh again I don't well you'll grieve with us or not you had maybe experience mine has been in the Army but this kid is almost a typical of the yard bird. The fellow who's

been in the stockade now for his fourth or fifth time and he's on his way to Leavenworth. This is usually the kind of story that you get. I remember one time I was instrumental in getting a fellow on probation from the army barracks. I stockade and he was only out 10 hours before he had broken into the P. X. and stole the commander's Jeep and. Done gotten drunk and was absent without leave. Still keeping the Colonel's jeep with him and he came back in again and the following Monday I was back to visit the jail and there he was back in again. The next time I saw him he had taken some kind of detergent and put it in the soup and he made the entire camp sick for two or three days. And it was actually that this exact kind of background he had. I'll agree with your father but it but here's the difference. When this boy was home he was one of the very few who had this unfair home situation where it was

musically on very emotionally unfair. I've seen a 17 18 year old go in the Navy with the same experience and many many of them started out as the odd bird type but they quickly realized everybody else had this unfair disciplinary authority over them. And when they saw the others I just lost them to the same thing. I was personnel supervisor in the Navy and I saw these things in a very very small percentage of them failed to adjust. And that's what I would hope that possibly this boy could do. Yes he is only 12 years old. On the other hand he's in the fourth grade and so his age grade placement is about two years retarded and now I think you'll agree with me that in talking this boy he's not a stupid boy. He is probably very natively cunning and sharp and cute and wise if you can be brought along if he can be brought along you must and he pointed out himself that he was a slow learner. And when we try to suggest that well maybe he could get some help

from a college student he made it clear to me his father didn't want any college students around his house. He didn't want them to see the house they lived. I too I guess I didn't tell you they live in three rooms and very shabby nine children two parents and they had a boarder until a bad incident at the boy mentioned that was what 13 12 people in these three rooms. And I guess if I just didn't want anybody to see that and therefore the child suffered from not having the assistance of a tutor. Not only didn't have the assistance father but it's being turned down prepped by the boy himself and definitely by the Father and the father possibly as a little bit of a shame that he has to ask for this kind of help. It's a point to end about it. Also the father had a buddy an old service buddy living with him and apparently he took advantage of this boy's little sister who was somewhat around the age of 4 or 5 which again I think gives us an an indication of the type of people

that this boy is surrounded with and he is pretty much of a loner he doesn't have many companions. A lot of his difficulties are I thought kind of comical one was that when he runs away he often steals a bicycle runs away I met It's a new twist but alone it's a mon job. He was a loan father until he got into a good setting such as the hospice and here he's one of the patients equal clothing equal food equal shelter and the people who are in charge appealed to him and he appeals to them. And suddenly he's in a dead setting no a delinquency of any kind was mentioned in the hospital I doubt if there was any. And I think there you're right there wasn't. The boy will respond but whether we're too late already and getting him is one of the things that we often worry about. I'm glad that you're enthusiastic about the possibilities of this boy making a new adjustment in life and perhaps as you suggest away from the family one whole

principle of caseworkers if at all risks of anything else or to to scuttle anything else you want to preserve the family picture to keep them together as long as possible but as you suggest maybe that's not the answer in this particular case maybe this boy would do better away from the family maybe the family do better with with him away and possibly father he could even have some pride in the family a way most people. Again the servicemen had vivid recollections of beautiful wonderful homes. Naturally they weren't all that but even what we would call the normal setting. I way from home the home suddenly has an extra appeal an extra glamour. And if this boy leaves the home you noticed he didn't criticize it too much. His remark about the mother was just a quick little physical description and he isn't better toward that not only you know he isn't. So if we can get a minister to Sion perhaps he can begin to have some of these dreams only a little older. Perhaps they will help him.

Let me ask you this it's been I've had an experience about this. I have never yet talked to one of these boys who would admit that his mother was not the finest woman that ever lived. Have you had the same experience that no matter what the family picture is that the child always has a wonderful mother. I won't agree 100 percent because I'm trying to reach in my memory for an exception. But where that where there was an exception where that wasn't so very very few who were of the type who were critical of the mother. They were the kind of people you would find who I've been in many institutions who are terribly better the ones on whom we more or less give up and say well they are institution material. They always will be. The desperation cases. And you feel that this boy has gone out for you. I don't feel that he has gone that far yet. He's on the road a little bit. He may be too far down the road for us to get him. That's a sad thing to say about a young teenager but this boy is well worth trying to reach.

Well this probably is not a fair question on the other hand you're no longer in a juvenile assigned of it. What exactly if you were the worker on this what would you recommend say to the to the the judge in charge for a boy like this. Theoretically being very practical I would say society needs protection. That's almost a cruel concept but I think that's number one. Right now he's going to continue to break into more cars another thousand or whatever. He was pretty glib about that fire. He may be a possible arsonist. Right now I think it's not safe for him or the people in the community to have him continue in that community. I think you need to institutionalize for some of the things I mentioned before to see that other people have the same advantages but no more than he has to see that in authority people do adjust to it to see that there is equal treatment someplace even if it's restrictive treatment.

I see. Well thanks very much Mr. Whip it's been real nice having you here with us to discuss this case and Joe who was a 12 year old boy in the fourth grade all from a large family of nine children. He has a long history of delinquency ranging from truancy to running away to theft to arson and stealing from the US Mail which is a federal offense stealing from cars over a thousand of them. He stole four times a day two times going to school two times coming back for a period of the year or more which means over a thousand cars he is a loner. He is seems to have experienced really he has gotten along better in a in a group situation such as the time it was in the hospital the time he was put into Thornhill a boy's school run by the county and the time he's been in juvenile court. He does very well. We are hoping that some kind of placement can be made for him which is going to bring him out of a lot of these troubles and give him a chance to start over in a different kind of situation in which he'll he will have not merely a chance but a good probability likelihood of successfully

adjusting as have many other children with a similar background. You have been listening to exploring the child's world. The program in which the child speaks. Father Francis Duffy Professor of Sociology at Duquesne University has conducted the interview with the child and to find the outlines of this world in the discussion with his guest Mr. Kenneth lips. This has been a presentation of the radio service of Duquesne University in cooperation with the Kings alumni association. Technical director Fred McWilliams program director and announcer Harold may listen again next week for another in the series exploring the child's world. The interview heard on this program was a recreation exploring the child's world is

distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This is the end E.B. Radio Network.