Couchiching conference; 5, Part 2

Boot. And while we are making use of this you know getting stronger. Of course we are used to running risks. We are prepared to run this if. That is what I want. Except. Except that I think Mr Ellis I would underline again that he saw something behind it and that I think was there behind that event or that was your man. I think we still have to underline that once again and expect another question now maybe about something else then unfortunate japanned Atmos fortune. Mr. Chairman my question is directed to Dr. Paul R. and it has to do with the purity and consistency of the Communist doctrine. How does communism and its doctrine and all its sympathizers reconcile its opposition to colonialism of Britain France and other democratic countries. And USSR colonialism with

respect to a number of neighboring countries which were either incorporated into the USSR by force or placed into a position that's alleged since the war. In other words entrepreneurial one colonialism back in another. Yes I think that. This is an old question in fact in colonies. We. Make. A distinction between colonialism and what the West because. We can. What colonialism do you own prior colonialism. I think you know what it is that another country. Is dominating or another people is dominating another people.

Actually broadening it. Now. I am not a combination and I don't want to defend him when it is. Not true. I mean we have to be honest even to our enemies. When you talk about colonialism. Is it really a colonial. What is happening in Poland for instance or in Czechoslovakia is that the old type of colonialism against which we have been fighting. That is what you say. That's what you saying. But let me say what I think. The fact is this. When you call and. You call and I say again the will of the people. And it is not the only people that are ruling

the. Wealth. In commie country. It is their own. Their own people. If everyone you are. You are obviously very one sidedly informed and it is very dangerous. It is very dangerous and if you want to fight an enemy you must know what he is and how you fight something which is not what you think. Then you are fighting. And the enemy may be behind you. There is the danger. There is also the danger by bringing together colonialism. And trying to persuade us to fight with you again. What you call. The people who have been

helping us against their democracy who have colonized. And you are asking us well be up to now we are fighting the Democrats who are on your knees to fight the people who are fighting with us against them. I mean lucky to have me here. Why Meir B. It quite quietly we can't do that. We can't do that. We may we may do that. And there are certain things where we are certainly going to join them. I finish all of them. Then we are then we can. Consider the effect of your kind of freedom you know fighting for freedom. You want to fight for political and for political freedoms in what you

buy our Because it is for. Political freedom because we are actually independent but be our members of an independent country underspent. I think what you want is for you in our fight against colonialism. We all are we going to fight for political freedom in our country or it is to fight with you for in American am.

John Fund Me I mean would you wait for the microphone to. Would you wait for the microphone to reach you because the audience on the air cannot follow your question or anything you know. Yeah I think that out on my right. We're treating the subject in a far more profound way. When he spoke of a humanism than any of the others. Now I spoke the other day that these questions are not political ones but moral ones. For instance if Indonesia is not ready for. Democracy it is because they have not yet reached that the moral standards that are necessary in a democratic country and a fully democratic country. Now I wouldn't say. It's often said

that Russian Communism is state capitalism. Well we are not committed at least many of us are not committed to private capitalism necessarily. If State capitalism is better let's have state capitalism. Provided the humanistic point of view is always meant ain't it hasn't been in Russia. I admit the trouble is they're not in the effects of state capitalism then. We should have. Done research but I really feel you could tack on a question mark to yes I would have thought that. I'm sure you're going to get an answer. Religions will have a lot to say about that. And you can't do without them. Islam in Indonesia could help a lot. I dare say it would have to be a modernized Islam and other religions in other countries where they are what I'd like

to ask is whether or to what extent these people seem to realize that religion must be brought in that they can't do without it. I just like to say one word French Revolution thought they could do without religion. When they started but they very soon got back to it. And since you mention the French Revolution and religion two topics you don't want me to speak about today. Not the car. How about your answering attorneys doctor. I quite agree with the question that moral values are extremely important and in fact if I have given to anyone here the impression that I did not believe in moral values. That of course is quite wrong I'm a doctor. And as a doctor I have taken the Hippocratic Oath which is that I shall look after my patients and anyone who is in need. Who is. Sick. Who needs me. Without financial considerations

if need be without any thought of myself it is the same spirit of looking after my brother and everyone is my brother. Every woman in the world is my sister. Every child is my child. That I have come to this conference and that I have tried to speak to you. I cannot say anymore to me to create except that this is my creed. This is the way I look upon the well. If it comforts you to know that at least one and I'm sure the others to have them are of value upon this planet. Thank you. You're overworking Dr. Hon. But I wonder if he might be granted the privilege of. Commenting on communism in Singapore and Malaya. Yes I would like to answer the question of communism in Singapore and Malaysia because I feel that as I said once upon a time television

shows small world people seem to be absolutely obsessed and hallucinated with China. As I said two days ago here I feel that there are other important countries in Asia and I repeat again tonight I look forward to Japan to be the important country of Asia but we haven't spoken about Japan yet. I hope we do. Well let me say very briefly about Malaysia and Singapore that it is a small country with great hope. There whether people know it or not. And fight against communism went on for about 10 years against armed communism and this fight has been won for one reason only because independence was given in time by the British and for this the British government must be praised. There is in them as end of timing a sense of knowing when to do things without waiting for any very concrete complicated moralistic

considerations such as other countries. They know when to do the right thing they gave independence to Malaya and the right time and as a result the communist revolution armed revolution there with them. Otherwise if independence had been denied the people of Malaya the nationalists there would have made probably common cause with the communists. And as Dr. Palmer pointed out the possibly Malaya would be communist today the same thing has happened in Singapore. Singapore went to the polls on June the 1st I was there 85 percent of the people voted in a socialist government. The socialist government has been accused of being communist it is non communist and if it is not helped if people for reasons of withdraw help are we told help from Singapore then it too will have to turn to communism instead of being able to develop democratically. That is all I wanted to say briefly in a nutshell about a very small country but which may be the Democratic hope of Asia.

Thanks. I have a question to ask. But first I think I would like to make an observation. It seems to me that in 1956 with all due respect to Dr. Paula that the Hyundai Aryans were fighting Russian tanks not ghosts. The other question if you want to play for longer you would have to come a little further. What I wanted to say first I have two questions to ask. But first I would like to make an observation with all due respect to Dr. Palla. It seems to me that the 956 the Hyundai Aryans were fighting Russian tanks not go. The other thing which I would like to ask the members of the panel any members of the panel is this. Is it about time that the East stopped making cliches

about the West. We have repented of our colonialism. We regret it very much. The British got out of India after much fighting. The Dutch got out of Indonesia. I dont think any of us ever will go back again. But isn't it true that you have finding in Asia a new kind of colonialism which is equally dangerous to you equally dangerous as ours were. I would be very grateful for any one of you to answer those rather simple question Kyra. It'll be. The observation most of you will Dr. Parr I guess the answer might belong to you also. Mr. Chairman on the question of hungry I must say that me. Indonesia. India and other countries of so-called non-committed countries do. They have expressed. You have expressed here feelings

of sorrow. And. Disappointment about what has happened here. But we have considered that an action. Taken by the government. By a girl in a communist country with a member of the Warsaw Pact and who has the right to ask any help from any country in the Warsaw Pact. Well that's our stance. I mean like you have our stand. I think that if you're required to provide is quite clear. Now the second thing. What about the regime of colonialism. Yeah well you when there is a great tragedy when you see you say the cliché of communism. There are real colonies in Africa and in Indonesia where New Guinea is still being called a knife. That's why we are in war with the Dutch

there and just be careful with seeing colonialism is there. In fact. What is the strongest want between the Asian and African countries in the United Nations. There is our fight against colonialism which the West and now I think. But then went on I think you are absolutely right. Not all weapons. Yeah. I didn't even know I was you I've always been. If so we call it. I apologize. A bunch but let me say this. Even in countries like Canada. There is this understand that there are no colonies anymore. One night when leave very hard fight in the United Nations to get a doctor by law.

Maybe I won't. I wouldn't falsify anything if I just rephrased it maybe forced you to be a little more explicit. This way that your fight against all type colonialism is largely one and can't help but being completely one because it's tied that's really receding all over the place. Even that little part of that large part of your country West New Guinea. I think you have confidence in Angela that it will be yours. But on the other hand you have in front of you according to the question that was asked a new colonialism very dynamic. And. Aggressive and that you don't seem to be making enough difference between the don't make a difference because you don't consider that as colonialism. No no. We may conceive of that as very dangerous certainly but we are in a more dangerous position in defense in the extent that the democratic countries have committed themselves to spread democracy all over the world and the communists they have committed themselves to coming from all

over the world. We are Asian Africa. We have committed ourselves to fight against. Colonialism that we are actually and that is going to give us the positive possibility when we are free to fight with you if you want to. At the time and I think we will know what I feel a precondition. Still a precondition you have with winning our fight Kurds because what you are asking is that in the pandal we are providing against this that we are going to fight. Do countries that are supporting a just look at United Nations when we are fighting for Growth is that the tragedy for the West for Western countries that it is always accomplished countries that are always always supporting us and its democratic countries that are against us. And you should note that that is very dangerous. Mr. Chairman I have listened with interest at many

times to this complete failure of understanding between Asians and Westerners on colonialism. I think that I have a fairly simple explanation is it not true and I would put this to any member of the panel that in the minds of virtually all Asians colonialism means the domination of colored people by white people. And that if Russia. Conquers Hungary it is a white man conquering a white man. Therefore it is not colonialism. If the Chinese dominate Tibet it is a yellow man doing yellow man and therefore it is not colonialism. But the image of colonial domination which causes the hatred and violence and. Resentment in Asia is always a colored image and without it the resentment cannot be there. Another way if any of you

colored by color. Yes my answer is yes. Your question is absolutely right. I think we do suffer from a quite complex quite often and I admit to it and probably because I ration and therefore it is possible for me to see my friends as complex and they turned me very often when they have talked out their feelings about my people and they are only half white so it's all right and exactly the same with my white friends. Very often things that they really feel about here when I say white I refer to the whites still rather saintly colonial minded people that we have in Singapore and in Hong Kong and they say oh well but you do understand me don't you because after all. And then they let it drop because for them it is still a shame to be your Asian. And between these two

yes I understand many things. And therefore I can say to you that it is quite true that I admit that many Asians still have this bonnet about white you cannot blame them. You also if I may say so with all due respect I have to thank you. Per hour. Well we try to avoid misunderstanding. I asked for just one minute. The fact is this don't we I mean I'm you the mate like don't I make the mistake that we are not aware of the danger of communism to have democracy. We are. We are but you are making the day. By calling. By bringing forward neo colonialism. In order and bringing confusion. We want

to finish our fight finish it because if we if we are not yet finished we can't fight. Coalitions that he has. Let me finish that first and then you will be. There. We come here to be inform. Me to correct something I think we inform you a certain point. You know it's very I'm very sorry to Mr. here because since the last few days we have become friends because we had a mutual friend in Tokyo. But I must push my friendship aside to to correct a missing information. Mr. He said that all his information came from second hand so I shall give him some information first hand. You know

the first time contect communists when I was only six years old. Because one of my father's brother was a communist. And he was happened to be a good friend of John Mayer. But don't be afraid of me because my uncle is dead. So they're coming. I'm personally has no connection whatsoever with communism. I think the main point here. Cos of all reward and destruction. No there's nothing missing information and propaganda. To people's passions. The walk and. Know the two points I want to point out he said. There's no other party but the Communist. And if there is no

freedom of choosing jobs. Now my uncle not coming might have another. He happened to be the head off a mine I saw. And. The chewing job. Maybe they don't have much power. And about human jobs. I have a sister. And I have a whole new respect for her with the sister immersion to a question. My sister has been informing me that since the Kumbh is taking

over she could do many things which she could not do before the commies took over. For instance she was a very good athletic. She now have three children of the coming order. May I suggest a question that seems to come out logically out of it that maybe Mr. imam and Mr. Ahmad who painted it in his opening statement a picture of communism and something that will never get any better it might even always and probably get an A discussion on communist influence on Asia goes on. Taking part in tonight's session of the Kuta chain conference at the she had us our editor of The Japan Times Tokyo is excellent see Ellen Pillai ambassador of Indonesia to Canada. DR HANS novelist

and Doctor five the Roma the Institute of Islamic studies McGill University chairman was running a live act for Montreal journalist and broadcaster. The good teaching conference is a joint project of the Canadian Institute on public affairs and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Copies of the speeches and discussions may be obtained in a week or two from public affairs to 44000 George Street to run the nights program was produced by Christina McDougal technical operations by John Skilling. Tomorrow evening at the same time a survey of the sources of conflict between east and west. Be with us again then. This is Bob Wilson saying good night from the coaching conference. This is CBC Radio the Trans-Canada network.