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The salary. Can you talk about the salary of the actors it will I mean it was up to No. You know I don't I don't think so I think that it's the grossest Burgess's there are this is a guaranteed job that they have once they join the company IBM year to year this is their their method of life and they can live according to the salary they received I was just curious yes I would say of course that they're very underpaid actors as as a whole and in that in fact I think this makes the point we're doing a lot of children's theater work particularly out of London by which I mean not putting on plays to children and talk about actors in small groups going into school to improvise with the children on themes of course the children come to see plays at the theater. But this other work is apart from that I think extremely valuable and at Coventry where they started this they were going to have teacher actors who would because in fact part of what you doing is teaching. Well when they had a grant an education committee for this they then discovered if they were to pay the minimum teachers
scale which is called the Burnham scale in England they couldn't afford to do it. So they made them the teachers instead and put them on the minimum actor's union rate which is so much cheaper they couldn't afford them. Had they been teacher actors they couldn't afford it because they were actor teachers OK now than our salary our minimum salary is ten pounds ten a week which is I don't know about every dollar and it goes up to about £30 £30 a week which is 90 because after a certain tenure. Oh wow. Yes I would say that that is for the actor who has either been there for four years say four or five years always coming from outside with four five six years professional experience that is low in London at the National Theatre of course a medium actor would get to get twice as much as a leading actor and television is much more like your rates over here. It was in London this past summer. The BBC knows quite well how well the actors do in
London especially. I understood that Olivier doesn't breathe unless he gets there that is doesn't breathe into a microphone already and I think that's an exorbitant fee which was disappointing to hear but I think I understand at least well enough I think it should be. This is the way it should be. How many directors do you have. Are you the only director or no we have. Well I have four I can call on the there's an Associate Director Wilfred Harrison by name who's also an actor of some standing and then I have a young trainee director. He came to he came the television over that ABC Television had a scheme of its like it was a foundation round here where they paid for a director to be attached to you for a year. They they sorted them out. And this one we've got now is joining us permanently. And then the former director at the theater someone called Jeffrey asked who's been there for 25 years he's one of our older directors in the country and the experienced
person is also happens to retired live in Sheffield and he still directs from time to time because we're going to the ABC Television has nothing to do with the American Broadcasting System. I haven't had the same letters. Well these directors that you can call on I mean are they with are they under salary with the playhouse. Yes well not well said Jeffrey the older one is comes to yourself permanently employed permanently employed. Is this your first trip. It is yes and so far you've seen what the wild Minneapolis for four days we then went to Stratford Ontario which is Canada but you're not really exposing yourself to foreign or alien styles I mean after all the Minneapolis is on the Guthrie Stratford and only as English so you haven't really seen what I would call real American theater as of yet. I mean that which typifies our
style here in this country at large. What do you plan to go you say to Lincoln Center you get there productions in yes I saw I saw one of the mansion yesterday and I know that that's sort of more broadly isn't it in a sense although it's a theater and a theater amount of. The mantra if you read the views I'm sure you have. It's been running for over a year. I think maybe it's in his second year and this is considered to be one of our best musicals. Did you find it enjoyable. Yes I was disappointed in as much as I felt the thrust former stage was a very significant fall and I'd heard that Guthrie at Minneapolis had been very against colored lighting and had been what they call purist. I think they were rather critical of this. But I can see now what he means because I mean the show as a musical is very enjoyable from a directors point of view I was disappointed that the whole play was given out front with second
rate citizens on the side. There was no attempt to use it as a thrust stage although it was very exciting when the orchestra started everything opened up and that stairway coming down is wonderful. But it was the most valuable thing we see is I think it made all the mistakes that one that are proceeding in production on the thrust stage I'm not saying this is wrong for the musical numbers we don't appreciate that they weren't doing Hamlet they were doing the work I think with which attempt to be significant. But I think I think it fell a bit between the two stools of commercial Broadway and and and dedicated theatre this is a harsh criticism because it struck me Walter Kirn one of his. Guest columns that he seems to find time to write every week for the New York Times had an interesting article as it turned out to be on the nature of the thrust stage in conjunction with the talents and obligations and requirement of an actor. And I think the interesting aspect about the article was that an actor
really has to be in complete control of his craft if he's going to be thrust in the lap so to speak of the audience with all dimensions exposed. As indicated there are no moments where he can sort of be to himself high drop out of character or lapse into absent mindedness or or talk to his fellow actor about unrelated matters. And I think that the thrust stage here if we develop it I think the acting styles will have to I should say style as much as the actual training and craft will have to adjust to meet in order for the theater to become viable enough for anyone to believe in it. But this showed the dangers I mean you're not playing live. You can't hide behind you know gauzes and blue lights and things on trust stage you are there you say exposed and this sort of showed. The Triple Play House renovator is this going to be a new building we ran
new from Scranton in a magnificent site which is the equivalent of putting it in Times Square I suppose. How in chef in chef what is and we've had in times when if you're now facing. Yeah I was happy there. But no this is this is really very magic the city council and the Arts Council which is a state. As was cited have contributed money for I suppose I should ask David Bray short this question What is the overall budget allowed for the shovel blade home. I should think at the moment somewhere about 100000 pounds a year. $300000. And out of that about half of that has to come from subsidies. Aha. And whereas the other have come from the box office I see in other words if you fail at the box office you're somewhat out of luck for the upcoming season. No well the moment it's a very happy situation in that it's planned over
three years. I mean you estimate. And so the only thing I'd say was wrong with that is that it's got this absolute bog of bureaucracy on it that you have to estimate for three times as much as you want and you get a third which I think is all wrong it seems to me you want to estimate what you honestly expect. But this is what's already creeping in and this is this is this is infuriating I think but as was his way the world runs exactly over there. I think that's the you can't have everything I mean you must accept I guess the comic we can't have honesty then. That's right. Well apparently not. It's very difficult to come by artistically financially and economically and socially I guess and I think that's another aspect of of what makes a theater in any country the overall moral situation the overall ethical situation in the country at large as in I would seem to think the theater of this has a great influence on the theater from the very from the backstage work or the stage manager to the actor to the director and I I think this is why in some
degree our theater at the moment is exciting yet. For short of any kind of ennoblement this is what I've always felt that theater here lacked a noble quality. We do find this in England. Well I in England I found the cause of the tradition and everything else was had it provided an atmosphere that was pleasant to number one be in connection with. But the production I happen to was seen the national data was that of three sisters which was one of the most marvelous marvelous productions that I have seen in theatre in quite a few years. My was from the standpoint of what I'd like to see in theatre because I like to say and it is not necessarily good theater for everyone else but there was an architectural quality of economy about this it was a it was just beautifully designed. There were no wasted moments movements. Everything was perfect
and it was this this and I saw some less than inspired theater and. I'm one who say that I don't suck. However that brings me to a question about where actors are in the United States and in England and in European countries. Because if you talk to English actors they will say first off that they are a lot too American They're American acting in a sense of its inner work its so-called in a work in American actors claim that they need the outer work from English actors both I think both these ideas really are misconceptions but I think out of the misconceptions we can understand what some individuals are driving at. Michael Yes there were two things that that struck me as a result of traveling and one was the myth
about England that the English of course were perfectionists when it came to classical theatre. When it came to Shakespeare but that they would probably have a hard time doing any of the modern more easy growing in terms of structured language and poetry plays and that they would have a great deal of trouble with the vanguard. And I must say that after coming back from England it was if anything it was the reverse as far as I was concerned that the plays that I saw that I did not like were very often Shakespeare and classical productions I thought they were badly done. And the most accent of the most exciting that I saw there were either very very old classics brought back for example the Duchess of Malfi that counted or modern plays. And it struck me from watching
some of these actors and trying to decide what was wrong with the Shakespeare side from from what was wrong directorial it. That there is a self indulgence for an actor which is going to tack itself on to whatever has been easiest for that actor and we all know the old stereotypes of the American actor presumably the self-indulgent one is so concerned with his own inner life and has such a lack of concern for the communication of life to the outside sort of contempt of the actual results of his feelings that we get a kind of slovenly acting style onstage. Now this is true and certain in certain areas on the other hand the self-indulgence that I saw in England was precisely the reverse it was a self-indulgence to the classic and indulgence towards the craft in such a fashion that a great deal of the acting that I saw was so
broad it was so false and so indulgent in a very noble sense. If that makes any sense it was full of full of operatic gestures and stage front behavior Shakespeare was very often in places treated with a kind of idolatry that I think may have substituted for imagination. And I think what we have here is that when you for in the well trained good actors the actors with integrity the self-indulgence is not there. And we begin to see a merging between as I think you would have intimated there is falsely set up stereotypes where if it's not part of the same framework then you will never get this happy meeting between these these these straw men and stereotypes that we have set up and I think when in England I saw actors with integrity they were every bit as honest as
enthusiastic as genuine as American. When you when you talk about integrity how do you use the word in this connection. Michel are you talking about integrity as a person or integrity as an artist or do you think they both are one in the same. Whether they're one in the same or not I think they're inseparable. That's probably what you meant that they are I think inseparable I was talking. There is an honesty towards the ensemble. For example there is an honesty towards the entire production which should do away with the dishonesty of personal image on stage. It's the character image as it meshes with the ensemble and I see a great deal more of this in Europe than I see here. I think perhaps we are at the mercy of the star system both in New York and as a matter of fact in the repertory companies that now exist in the country they have a tendency to move in the same direction.
And this really brought something up which I was touching on earlier. I'm glad you're magical. I want to ask generally are regarding this integrity this honesty. This is a if a if an actor basically is a compassionate person and has humility and understanding of his crap. Is this sufficient in terms of his development in bringing forth what theater is and why theatre exists in the first place and this is the question what basically is the reason for theatre. I often ask myself this question why do we have theater I know why we have for example film because it's a tremendously wonderful escapist activity and also you can the camera can bring to an individual things that he will never perhaps in his lifetime get a chance to see. I mean through this medium so we understand film
has a different seems to have a different reason for existence. But what is what do we have to do for entertainment. Do we have theater for instruction in Lightman or what is the reason for theatre. And then what reason does an individual have for being involved in theatre. But to take the second part because it was interesting to us in Minneapolis to see a university drama department production we've heard a lot about this. In fact our general sort of cliche view in England is that there's theater in New York in the rest of the countries all drama in moms with modest theaters and people who who do use them technically very well. And this production we saw of Albert tiny Alice which I didn't like I must confess is applied vastly inferior to it otherwise. But. What's interesting about it was this was done very proficiently very sincerely with great integrity in that sense. And yet what was lacking was the narcissism was the egotism of the professional actor which is a part of it when you said what do we go indeed for theater. Well I think the community
goes perhaps as the Romans went to see the Christians thrown to the gladiators for a kick. But in fact if they go to a real theater that may be a just the very basic but in fact there you go then you go and see to see King Lear and see how some have some haven't put his eyes out you're not going for that you're going you're going to suffer for a sort of spiritual refreshment and I think you put your finger he said it's clearly not entertainment and it's clearly not business. I think what has bedeviled even the theatre outside London in our country we have a book on our theater not telling tales out of school in the front it is quoted so Henry Irving is quoted as saying For the theatres to succeed as an art it must first succeed as a business. I think that's a misstatement of all time particularly to attribute to him such a generous unbusinesslike man who went out of business many many times. I think for the theater succeed it's got to offer the audience. An experience you can't get anywhere anywhere else to which it actually contributes. Surely this is a great difference between cinema television and theater.
But a good performance is conditioned by the audience however. Inspired the text however inspired the production or direction. Ultimately this is the other component the audience's reaction which which which which makes it valid. And it seems to me that what is most encouraging working in Sheffield which is a steel town and I you compare it with Pittsburgh or what I mean the majority of people are only beginning to come to the theater. But if you stretch the move the Duchess of Malfi which Michael saw they will respond to that. You'd think they'd all run out of the theater and wait until you did the next thriller or whatever which we don't do now anyway but they don't they risk they like to be stretched to the brink with to a point about the players I want to ask you concerning the repertory that you have. What plays. Have you do you know how many of the plays we repeat from season to season and generally what is your agenda now for the. Well normally we have we're a small theater and have difficulty in storing this is why
we don't play into repertoire changing every night. We change week by week and we put in a new play every week but a play comes in it goes out it comes back again. We have kept one or two plays for over a year waiting for God. I was an interesting example by Becky. This is you know is it would be regarded as a theater ampere from a sort of broadly point of view. And we put it on for one week to packed houses because all the students all the real cranks I mean fans are really stocked on theater of AK and we bring it back for a week now next week actually. Then we may keep that in for year just putting on a week at a time because it is I regard that as a as an entertain for someone who is particularly aware of theater and has got some experience and is willing to work hard at it. John Osborne's inadmissible evidence of the soul that I thought was a very again a very popular player last time again brought that back. Normally at the moment we put on I'm afraid far too many plays 14 or 15 14 or 13 which is a different place here. We get away with it by doing one big production and then two small ones when the company split in
two. Do you have any Shakespearean repertory. Oh yes we usually do one a year the last time we did was as you like it. But over the five years I've been there we've done King Lear and part of Twelfth Night in Hamlet Hamlet as you like it then four out of the 14. How many of them would you say or have been in the repertory for at least only perhaps one or two to be Keep this is a technical problem really I think the audience would come. But by the time you know it's out of storage and after every every season we lose three or four actors gain three or four an hour more I mean then it means rerun once on your actors in the repertory system. Do you truly operate with an actor this week maybe playing Hamlet in next week maybe playing some insignificant character. Yes within within within certain limits and as much as occasionally it does happen that a leading actor Wilford Harrison who is playing lead played a small part in Hamlet in fact has been do they I mean is this done as sort of a good natured grab on the part of a well-known
actor I mean he or is this a modus operandi. I mean that you have your actors rotating in rows. Yes I think it's fair to say that we don't ask Hamlet to do the butler the next week. Do you get a dreadful Butler. Quite apart from anything else where you kind of you know I mean you kind of get right. That's about let me put it this way I mean the worst performance I've ever seen in my life for Peter O'Toole at Bristol Old Vic when he was when he was playing small parts when he was a big personality just waiting for the Cinerama screen and he could you know I mean and there were other recriminate. You're not I mean it was his fear. It wasn't it wasn't that. Now this is not quite this is quite different actually from from a bad actor playing to the audience. This is a potentially great actor who was actor placer was just spread all over the auditorium in a car containing will decision to have a thrust stage of the new Sheffield playhouse based upon your observations here or
this is a foregone conclusion and you just want to know I can honestly say that until we saw the performances and we've only seen that before Mrs Minneapolis we should see the Lincoln Center today. But until then a one on one sense that with a great man like Guthrie he was he was if not right. At any rate he wouldn't set one across and he knew pretty well if you're going to be in some way affected by it. I think I can honestly say that it's not just been a nice little holiday in the States. No we're on with another then the wrong lad cried. But in fact we have been very influenced by what we've seen and I think what is so good is that being able to see things even like a mantra for example obviously is that we've seen to that. But there's a certain purity about the idea by which I mean in integrity the statement you make and if you try to get away from it either by not talking the audience quite so far around and trying to have the best of both worlds you fail you must you must said one thing or another.
What are you sorry Mr. Bush of the advantages of oppressed age. I think it says intimacy and involvement of the actors with the audience. We've been lucky in that in our time here short as it is we've seen very nearly every type of play we started off in Minneapolis with and we have a CVS carnival. We saw that during that visit we saw a workshop production after that all of us stayed on the stage of two actors doing a tiny piece by Pirandello two actors with two table and two chairs on a best day. We saw Harper's Ferry directed by Gus Ray and we finished up with a House waitress based on the other style produced by Guthrie which was quite one of those tremendous spiritual experiences I've ever had. What reaction do you have to the complaint on the part of many many persons in the audience that they don't like his intimacy. They don't want to be as close to the saliva of the actor and they would rather keep some kind of well I think Different Well I think it's not an artistic I think this is a spiritual difference I think this is about the
cinema so popular you can go and cry in the dark and no one can see you and hear. Well I mean for them I ask you to shut up but I mean this seems to me to be to be adolescent. What we're asking people to do is to weep in public not to be afraid to it seems to me then they can become more compassionate and more adult I don't mean anything wrong with crying at the mansion last night which I thought was sentimental to a degree at the end I could see in the front row people sort of laughing as to their eyes. Now what was wrong there was that they were in fact cut off because that stage is the Gulf. I mean it's pitched into the auditorium it's not it doesn't it's a cheat. It seems to me that what the thrust stage has got is one should say to you OK you don't like it but that's because this is something you want you want to grow up into. It was built for temporary purposes. At any rate I think it's as much about it's going to be torn down if I'm not mistaken very far. You know I said well I'm and I hope I'm not being ever critical about that because it was quite oh quite I mean I what interests me and then I bet you've seen and I suppose your listeners will at least have heard of the production and know that
they have these two whether to pretend to be horses now riding on horseback this was most imaginative and the audience responded with a spontaneous round of applause. This is what I like about as I say the audience is always encouraging it always responds Well I'd like to talk a little longer about thrust stages but our time is up. And before you go back to. England we want to say thank you to Carl and George the artistic director of the Sheffield Playhouse and David brace you're the executive chairman at the Sheffield Playhouse and Dr. Michael Les sac actor director and recent recipient of the Ford Foundation grant to study directing throughout the theaters of the world. This was seminars in theater. A recorded series of discussions with leading members of the theatrical profession join us again for our next program when host Richard Pyatt will lead another conversation about life in the theater seminars in theatre is produced by radio station WNYC in New York City
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Series
Seminars in theatre
Episode Number
Episode 8 of 31
Producing Organization
WNYC (Radio station : New York, N.Y.)
Contributing Organization
University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip/500-q23r0m54
If you have more information about this item than what is given here, or if you have concerns about this record, we want to know! Contact us, indicating the AAPB ID (cpb-aacip/500-q23r0m54).
Description
Series Description
For series info, see Item 3231. This prog.: Sheffield Playhouse of England. David Brazier, artistic director; Collin (or Colin) George; Dr. Michael Lessack.
Date
1968-03-04
Topics
Literature
Theater
Media type
Sound
Duration
00:27:29
Credits
Producing Organization: WNYC (Radio station : New York, N.Y.)
AAPB Contributor Holdings
University of Maryland
Identifier: 68-11-8 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
Duration: 00:27:15
If you have a copy of this asset and would like us to add it to our catalog, please contact us.
Citations
Chicago: “Seminars in theatre; Episode 8 of 31,” 1968-03-04, University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 29, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-500-q23r0m54.
MLA: “Seminars in theatre; Episode 8 of 31.” 1968-03-04. University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 29, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-500-q23r0m54>.
APA: Seminars in theatre; Episode 8 of 31. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-500-q23r0m54