Asia Society presents; 73

The Asia Society presents. This is a series of interviews with authorities on Asian affairs designed to strengthen our understanding of Asian people and ideas. Your host on this transcribed series is a noted author and award winning a broadcaster. Lee Graham here now is Mrs. Graham. This is of course today in a somewhat different form from what it did when it first began. But one wonders can values be thrown out all together. Or do they still continue to have an effect. This is the main question that I would like to address to our guest on this edition of the Asia Society present because he is highly qualified to answer this and similar questions. He is Professor WEI MING to Professor to formerly was at the Harvard University where he took his doctorate and today he is assistant professor in the department of East Asian studies at Princeton University. He's very interested in the intellectual history of China.

The path the present and possibly the future. And Professor too many of us wonder if China is completely revamped or whether the old bag might still be there. But perhaps I'm wrong. I think the whole problem of the relationship between the traditional values and modern transformation is a major problem confronting all of Asia and the case of China. It is only one part of the whole syndrome. It seems to me before we go into this issue it's a very good idea to examine very briefly about the Jeno or n2 approach to the problem of religious or philosophical values. This seems to me that in the east as differentiated from the practice of philosophical thinking in the West that the act of philosophizing in the east necessarily lead to a

corresponding act of spiritual transformation. In other words the clear differentiation between philosophical inquiry on the one hand and religious commitment on the other. That is the case in the West is absent in China. Therefore just offical thinking in the east necessarily leads to some form of religious commitment. If the inseparability between our cognitive thinking and a religious commitment is the characteristic of Eastern tradition as a whole I think the traditional values themselves as the common heritage of spiritual quest in the east still have tremendous relevance to what is going on in the modern period because they give meaning to the home one and ising process. Would you say that there are other basic differences between the eastern approach to philosophy and shall we say ethical behavior and the Western. Is it that

one follows through in behavior on one's thoughts more than perhaps we do in the West. Of course I have to be cautious to make a dichotomy like that of course in the West. We do find a tradition that is centering around a spiritual quest as the only legitimate approach to philosophical inquiry. Our For example mystic elements in Plato in San Augustine the Stoics the medieval sense are the philosophical inquiries of POS car. Q could guard the existentialists. And they all considered the problem of self cultivation as the center of their philosophical inquiry. But throughout Western history especially with emphasis on the intellectual development of the West the attention has been focused on the problem of cognitive understanding of the Xtina world and it may be possible for us to say that the mainstream of Western

philosophical thinking is to center around the problem of epistemology. Therefore there is a gap between philosophical inquiry and religious commitment in the West in general. A western tax book in philosophy usually would not take it into account. And I like Martin Luther or even Jesus or Calvin and this case is somewhat impossible in all that is in traditions of philosophical book. We're content the same are leaders of ideas in the east as well as the I think US. And this is comparable to the religious approach to all these problems in the east. Would you say that there is an extra insulation of materialism which we are accused of in the West which does not hold true for people in the east. Well I wouldn't say we think of the physical world as more important and not worry too much about the world to come Is that true.

Is that characteristic of the way I think. Broadly speaking there is a tension or conflict between the act of self transformation or softer division in the ethical religious realm and the act of understanding the external world in the West. And this is probably a very basic tension. But in the east there is a serious attempt to understand oneself as the point of departure of all sorts of religious of lots of enquiries and this will bring us to the whole problem of the development of science which is probably outside of scope of our search. But there is a major difference in terms of spiritual orientation not rounding to some tactless. I'm sure you won't mind this next question professor too. Would you say though that the emphasis on the inner self the spiritual self realization in the east has impeded a great deal of the physical and scientific progress which has unfortunately kept the east from some of the

everyday conflicts which I think all people would like to enjoy. I think this is a very truthful statement. I was say in the case of China because of tremendous emphasis on the mastery of oneself on the problem of self-preservation. The spiritual orientation is not mastery over the world. It's not just adjustment to the world. It's mastery over oneself and according to Marx waiver statement. This may have a tremendous effect on the lack of development in scientific thinking in China. This is quite true. Not that scientific thinking has been such a marvelous answer aid has brought many problems and much anguish with it. And I don't mean to emphasize that is the better way. It's just that one wonders and it seems to be true then that the emphasis has kept Asia from joining what we think of as the modern technological world. But this is quite true. And because of the emphasis on what we call a uni centered structure of experience that is the ethical religious

experience is the focal point of one's intellectual inquiry. Then all the ideas or concepts that one encounters will be meaningful only in terms of one's practical religious quest. And this of course is very different. From the Western spirit of the inquest or Promethea Quest and that is a multi dimension approach to human endeavors. What religion has had the most profound influence upon China. Let us say Confucianism are basically Confucianism and of course we use the term three teachings which means Confucianism and Taoism and Buddhism are the three important religious traditions in China. Could one sum those up fairly succinctly. Well I have tried to do that and that's when I was retired almost insurmountable. Then I know that if you try. Yes I think the basic problem is the problem of how in any of these traditions are in a state of constructing a general theory of

metaphysics or ethics. The problem is how to become a sage in the Confucian tradition or how to become one with the Tao or the way in the Taoist tradition and how to become Buddha in the Buddhist tradition and the focal point there is the transformation of the self. How to understand oneself through self control through some kind of spiritual discipline and through some kind of encounter with next to no world without losing ground of one's oneself. And by so doing the focus is on the ethical religious dimension of human culture. The problem of how is an exact existential problem. It requires some kind of spiritual position. It's not a cognitive problem in other words the problem of understanding the various kinds of issues involved in the problem of intellectual argumentation

would be de-emphasized. And the problem of practice how to use a Chinese term yet in your experience would be emphasized. But I said you as a student of history both in the past and the present of the Asian world are you not surprised that there has been this powerful drive for liberation from shall we say imperial powers or from dictatorial powers on the part of Asian people. I say that because it does seem in contrast to the Asian ideal of self control. If a person is brought up to control himself and his emotions isn't surprising at the same time he will flare up and gauge in a powerful revolution. And that's we just take psychologist Dick approach to understand a problem for China to do some kind of psycho therapeutic analysis of it. And this is not surprising to me because we have to look at the phenomena from a historical

perspective. It started actually in the mid 19th century China was forced to open its gate to the external world in the 1840s and the problem of China's response to the west is a very complicated and central problem to our understanding of the various kinds of developments in China in the last 20 years. And in fact the whole problem of the Western impact on China and China's response has been discussed in a very unscientific way. In other words we've talked a lot about the Western impact. We know very little about what is it that it has been impacted on. In other words the entire dynamic of Chinese culture. Of course it's quite true that in higher culture in China the emphasis is on self control. But this is by no means pointing to what some kind of

submission. It's not surrendering to the external pressure self control is a tremendous of energy centered activity. In other words self control requires tremendous of energy for the control of various kinds of instinct to demands and various kinds of other forces at play. When one is serious convinced that the kind of extra No pressure exerted upon oneself is basically irrational then the kind of energy at one's disposal may very well be used to fight against that irrational encounter with oneself. So comparable to the whole idea of self control. There's also the idea that it is the determination of the individual or the will of the people would be able to conquer any kind of threat from our side. So the mechanism can be worked both ways. I think one gathers strength through this self-control and then uses the power. And warding off something which

seems to be evil. Precisely. And when a large group of people in China are seriously convinced that extra force that is exerted upon China is basically aggressive irrational and should be conquered and should be wiped out and the kind of energy at the disposal of the leader is tremendous. This is why the whole approach to the problem of modernization in China is fundamentally different from many of the other nations because that mechanism is uniquely Chinese in a way. If you don't mind now could we discuss this on a more personal basis in that. Oh you I'm sure by now I was gaining great respect from our audience in that you were alone in one meeting that is the southwestern part of China in 1940. You got your doctorate when you were comparatively young in your 20s and that you now live in the United States have a very good position here. I speak English so fluently and you know the best of all let's say you know both

worlds I don't know whether you know the best of both worlds as yet therefore you are in a position perhaps to tell us what. A Chinese family values is important compared to what an American family feels is important. Is that a fair question. Well yes. When did you leave China by the way. I left China. Actually I was educated mostly in Taiwan. Yes yes my B.A. from Doha University. I left Taiwan in 62 and came to the states and studied for four years and then I went back to Taiwan to teach for one year. Oh so then you have at least 20 years of experience in China. Yes. Oh is there a vast difference between the two families of a family unit in your world where you were born and where where you now live. I think so I think the whole problem of loyalty. The problem of familiarity and the problem of intimate relationships among family members all of these are quite different

different shades of meanings different in emphasis. It seems to me that in China there is a tremendous emphasis on human relations human relatedness is considered as a irreducible reality of human existence. In other words if one wants to really cultivate oneself one has to do it in the context of society. This is from a point of view of Confucianism and that's one account of it oneself in the context of one's family one society. The kind of achievement one has is only a kind of ego satisfying individuality. So there's Mark difference between an approach to self-preservation which is egocentric or egoistic and approach to self-doubt evasion which is basically communal or in a cooperative sense. And in fact the whole idea of rugged individualism that has played tremendous of emphasis

in the United States and has being very very important in motivating the development of the American economy. Art is basically misunderstood by the Chinese when it is translated into China. Into Chinese by many of the Chinese intellectuals as good and which means egocentricity or egocentric ness and this kind of approach to the problem of human relatedness is basically considered very incompatible with the traditional values in China. Would you say they come to this conclusion Chinese some Chinese intellectuals because they really know very little about family life in the United States. That's quite true. So it may seem as if the man is doing nothing but building a fortune and making a name for himself whereas he might be very close to his wife and children. When he's at home yes I attribute my experience in America especially in the east and it's really made me to understand the complexity

of American culture the vulgarized version of America or the kind of Americanism that people usually know in Asia is quite distorted. And in fact the fast inspirit the idea of conquering the West by brute force or only plays a very small part in the development of American civilization unless we place tremendous emphasis on the puritanical ethic in the east on the emphasis on work ethic. I emphasis on the integrity of the individual as an irreducible reality in any kind of human encounter and says on freedom on democracy the rights of myself and the rights of others and all these are very important human values. We really cannot understand the kind of complexities in American citizenship these qualities that you just mentioned you are saying are part of the American way of life. Yes they are indeed. Do you have the impression that this is

not clearly known or understood by many people outside of the United States. Well let alone Europe and certainly Asia. This is quite true and this is why I think mass communication and various other forms of human contact brought about by technology development in the modern period. I do not necessarily contribute to bridging the gap of human understanding. Or I might misunderstand. Why do you think that is true. For example this program the Asia Society presents we feel is one way. I'm sure quite small but at least it is a way of bringing the east and west together we feel intellectually emotionally culturally. We are explaining ourselves to the east and we're trying to explain east to the west. It's an electronic approach. It's not an technology didn't provide it we couldn't do it. You don't think that is of any benefit. Oh that's of course extremely useful. Oh you know what why don't you think it works necessarily.

The problem is human understanding requires much more than just a superficial contact. And this is of course a rather radical view. My experience in the recent trip to Asia I flew from New York to madrassas in about 19 hours. But the decision that the difference in terms of style of life in terms of value orientation in terms of. Conflict in terms of the various kinds of values are so great to fly between New York and madrassas is the greatest achievement made by the modern technological development. And yet this kind of encounter has not yet brought about a better understanding a mound of various kinds of races. You know those kinds of Russian are nationalities and that's why I'm arguing that despite tremendous improvement in the area of technology and tremendous contribution made by modern science in improving human understanding

the basic problem of human misunderstanding is still there. It's very much of a reality in our modern life. Well human misunderstanding exists within a small area perhaps in just one room where two people are seated although I have a feeling you and I understand each other quite well. But if we would do other people we might sit in this small room and not understand each other at all. You know it is a matter not necessarily of space and time but something going on in the two brains confronting each other. But don't you think with us to do the more one travels to other parts of the world and the more information one has to bring to those parts and take from those parts must in the long run can trip. Need to. And human understanding and somewhat alleviate the human misunderstanding. This stuff really agree and I was say space is still a place a rather important factor in or important role in this whole context. And I definitely agree that more context among men of

various forms will gradually alleviate this kind of misunderstanding we have. But the problem is unless we have we make a very definite decision to do it and the whole process of doing it is long and strenuous and I think the program we have now is an extremely important contribution to this kind of understanding. I only hope that we'll have more of this kind of program this kind of. Our encounter at a cultural and spiritual level as well as the various other kinds of levels like political social. It's amazing that this I don't mean to be praising this program but it appears to be the first and perhaps the only series of programs on the subject of making East and West understand each other better. One of our most important television critics Jack go to the New York Times not so long ago said this would be such a series of programs and there isn't.

How does this is quite amazing. I think the need for interfaith dialogue in the religious field as being widely recognized. Yes. And the need for dialogue among various kinds of nations and races is also being recognized. But the mechanism the real the means are here but they are not always being used not being used. One of the misunderstandings in present day seems to be between the sexes doesn't profess to between men and women matter another subject which is being aired and I think it's exciting and not ridiculous as some people seem to think. Now in China there was a women's liberation movement perhaps one of the first in modern times the women of China. From what I understand have changed greatly in their position. Oh of course. I think if we want to use this current term Women's Liberation Front then I think the situation occurred in China. How long before the May 4th period in 1919.

So generally I would say that a modern woman in China is liberated of course. She still is confronted with all sorts of problems that the American woman is confronted with now. But I think she is recognized or at least been recognized in Chinese society as an equal member in any kind of profession. Any kind of economic gathering or any kind of work that she wants to do and I think the job discrimination in this case is quite absent. My personal experience in Taiwan was quite interesting in reference to this specific point. Now we have more female students in college than male students. We have more jobs open to women in Taiwan than jobs open to men and probably should have something like a men's liberation front. I mean Taiwan is a that's probably the Navy's problem. Still are there more

women in Taiwan. That is what accounts for the prevalence of women in college and in high paying jobs. I don't think so I think it has a lot to do with the present educational system. Because every one high school graduate has to go through an entrance examination to be able to be admitted to one of the colleges. And since the female students work harder at this particular age and so they get higher marks. Their English is better and their mathematics or their knowledge about history and the like. So they naturally get into all these better universities and have better positions. That's the statement you've made but Job enjoyed the most in the minute we have left. Would you say Professor do that this situation apply in mainland China as well. That I don't know that but I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure that the role of women in man in China is not very different from that in Taiwan.

For our audience who is interested in knowing more about them. Remarkable achievements of China and of Asia in general but quickly some advice for them. What would you suggest they do tried to do this through reading through traveling enhanced the knowledge. I think reading definitely is very important but more important than reading probably all prior to reading is the whole emphasis on an open mindedness to a different culture. I think it's very different when we try to understand a culture only in terms of some kind of super superficial understanding of it or trying to understand a culture in terms of a personal commitment for better understanding of human reality. The two attitudes are quite different. When I feel that your comments have added immeasurably to our knowledge and I very much appreciate your being here. And our guest on this program has been Dr. Waite Ming too who is assistant professor at in the department of East Asian

studies at Princeton University. And I'd like to close with a reminder that although East is East and West is West you and I must do all we can to make the twain meet. Thank you and goodbye. That includes tonight's edition of the Asia Society presents with Lee Graham. This series comes to us through the cooperation of the Asia Society. If you would like to comment on tonight's program or would like further information about the society and how you can participate in its many interesting activities please write to Mrs. Graham. WNYC New York 1 triple 0 7 and make a note to join us again next week at this time for another edition of the Asia Society presents. This is the national educational radio network.