Voices of Europe; Dr. Alf Ahlberg and Gertrud Magaziner

Voices of Europe Milton mair American author and lecturer broadcaster and professor in the Institute of Social Research from Frankfurt University has been recording the voices of Europeans who will help us to understand the conditions in which they live in the province of dollar Carlia where the north of Sweden really begins. The forests open up near the town of Ludvik up on Lake vestment here among the birch trees on the shore of the lake is a group of typically Swedish red houses which constitute the famous bronze Big Folk School one of Sweden's institutions for the education of young adults. In this case industrial workers from all over the country who come here for six months to live and to study either at their own expense or when they can't afford it at the expense of the state. The folk high schools here in Sweden as everywhere in Scandinavia are thus supported by the state but they are privately directed then controlled. The principal of the Brunswick folk high school is Dr Alf who has been its principal for 25 years and whose name is synonymous with education not only in Sweden but in Scandinavia and in Europe. Here is Milton

Mayer to interview Dr. Alf. Our bag doctor our bear. I have not come so far from home to ask you a simple question. I've come to ask you the question which the young ethane EON may now asked of Socrates in Athens. Where does goodness come from. Does it come from nature or from training or is it produced in some other way. Of what use is education in the modern world. I think the main UK thing would be to allow us to leave as indeed curates and as people

based purely and leave to cool and infant who do get there. Instead they are making such a mess as we have moved. But this mess query which we have made indicates that there must be. They pick. I don't know if you understand me. They think they know like Yuki what is that defect which is indicated. Well this defect is I think that our education in our whole Western world leading as well as America is just your one sided

intellect. You're at least in our schools and in our educational activities we try to love and beat in the knowledge that you need us. And all such. But with only this they have it moved to an end sorry to Mohammed Saeed who they say delete your side of the man. It's quite undernourished to see you know. We could take so many people I think we could say of all the sleepy the day I'll ever ride on how I educate did in the

West and since they were out this way these people are of course we could have better public schools but they are better than they ever were in this respect. They like give you me a you know let them in industry in through the nose for more than 30 40 years ago and it is the same certainly the same in America in Germany. If you'll ask instead of that they step taken place in Morwell every little thing. Oh it's did taste better than I can of course only it's because to eat this reading people I must say on the con because. Right. Oh it does.

Intellect your early education. We haven't cleaned our children and young people old people go ahead and skirted bew differ. They go do things in their life. Now it's a place where you are at it. But I think you can see what they say but they're like they are in the. Very definitely Dr. Alberg you are saying that if we take three highly educated peoples the Swedes the Germans and the Americans we cannot say that their taste or their morality is any better.

As a consequence of their high degree of education. But then Dr. Alberic you seem to be saying that education is not the way to goodness and we must rule it out. It means guess you could say their way is not. What we generally call it you OK but some saw the train leaving in the third issue and you see in older times they cannot escape this fact that I will Les done could you first thing in the case. Yeah more like Who don't you say is

the deacon the elites just put it all out there they are licked it a few more. That is yours. All that doubt means but it is fact. But no it's also a fact that in more down times you speak really among the educated. He did this 35 and has the U.S. lost its hold and then down as being there is a boy and m these days. And you know the days of the feel of it for you it must be filled out to itself and if you now take the sleepy

history of the American people all the best for the knowledge I take it you kick people. In Sweden you have that feeling. Well we have lived in Hungary 50 years in peace and you know even the evil you can oh say there has been peace. We can go on and do this sense comes in after. We are a little sleepy but 777s rocked. Can really good people deal. He still he goes that is this. They need this to need.

We cannot determine your destiny. Well let us go to the cinema. Let us you know we haven't been in Sweden yet got television but then the whole we would have our time in America is the situation. Otherwise America is now a nation in the past going to history to date. But they have a sense we can build everything we have it. Unlimited power. Well let us build that creeps along the constructor told me.

In Germany there was a guy because sit better if you can. Between these highly educated intellect the size of the man and it was all true no say and as a city as a C. In the sim no similar woman lasts. It's sort of the bell young of this UN don't know if I'm all for an inside of a man. This Wait was that fitted out for a dim diabetic I will not say such than the guy who tosses this once a good intellect you have played lately playing I'll call you at this

point. If it is for you not can it. If he cannot cannot clean the more I lend him alternate side of the more than man. But after all you have told me what goodness ears you have told me why and how it is that we do not have it. You have told me how we do not get it. But when I ask you how do we get it. You speak of training. Now I understand that if I wish to be a wrestler the way I become a wrestler a good wrestler is to wrestle under the eye of a good trainer.

Perhaps if I wish to become a good musician then I play an instrument under the I am a good teacher. But if I wish to become a good man how am I to be trained. This is May. I think it is a consequence of what I do and said he thought. For me it is not only when pulled limb of your among us but it is simply a problem and I confess outright I cannot stay on this problem. I said I will call Joe is built upon the kissed young lady.

Our cue will cease to make this. Kurdish can donate at least 30 feet into the room leaving power for the more than man. If it is possible. Oh if it's not it if it isn't posted that then there must come something else. But if you ask me what. And I say only it's I don't know. And I think such because since you cannot so who said they knew. And I mean you know six or seven clever people around the table saying that we thought the sink hole we

well plan in new elites you know so on such things in the history of it are born or not born. That doesn't all it is I would say I cannot see that we have it and I don't you'll stand between. They varied in the case gen 35 in all their most honest people on something and it's. The only thing we can do it for us. Amy is still econ clear us of this situation. We must be concrete. Khan Yes of these picked this out that our country has said that this defeat to it

that had simply been that fast that they were in better condition it's a conscious. Yes they did. Pete Docter augur Perhaps I do not need to ask you if you remember the answer which Socrates finally gave to this persistent young man Meno who wanted to know where goodness came from. SOCRATES finally said that perhaps goodness was a gift of God. Yes and that is not the need to lick till the end so that it's a contest that could serve this quests. Thank you Dr Albert as be fits of

peonies Gertrude magazine or is a musician by profession and at heart but her profession in the course of history got lost she says she was a socialist and old socialist but not so very old. Her husband had to flee to Yugoslavia in the year 1934 under the darkest dictatorship in Austria when the Socialist Party was suppressed. She joined him in Yugoslavia in 1036 and in one thousand thirty eight they went to England. There she served during the war as secretary of. Prime Minister issued by Shushi of the Yugoslavian government in exile in 1907 the maggot seniors came back home to Vienna and now from magazine or is associated with a very violent Fener folks build on the adult education system of the city of Vienna. Here is Milton Mayer to interview for my good senior from a good senior. What is there that the adults of Vienna after what they have been through don't know.

Well it's a little complicated to answer you because you see different generations of abouts in Vienna. There is the gentle generation of Gaza elderly adults that have still no democracy. There's a generation that has gone up and up fascism and Nazism has gone through a period of quit a pious of young people has never known democracy and has been taught that you have to obey people who are about you and to kill and that is people who are under you. That a very different generation from my own. And yet again a very different generation from the younger people who come behind them. The difficulty is that we have to teach each generation something else. We have to teach the older generation to have hope in the future.

After all they have to have hope of the young people who are coming after them and are going to think over the future of the company. We have to teach them. Very young people who have never seen democracy what the moccasin is and that's a very difficult job in account plate which has a military occupation and where all Australians have to be on very good terms with each other because of the circulation. You see we come to a position here and democracy without a position is not a total democracy and after all you can only teach people by showing them what is. So that is our greatest difficulty these young people to teach them what they must go see is to teach them that you can't change seeings if you think for yourself and if you are not afraid of being what you know to opinion is from I get seen or you have the these three generations than the old people who once knew

democracy the very young people who never knew democracy. And then this middle generation I don't quite see them. It's very difficult to see them. They are once more and I know it because you see they have been decimated quite a number of the mandate. Most of them and that law is some have been out of the camp. All of those who know he had some good in them have been as a killer but even that way and those who have remained bills have served and helped this model of. Seems they are there who have people that are not really not really popular as it is the older generation always to the young generation because they are trying to fill in that people who are under them and they haven't got enough get it to

stand up to people who are above them. And is this middle generation your big problem it is a big problem. Of course the younger people our problems but we have good hopes of them because they are waking up after the great at the sea that followed and even we cannot show them real democracy. They can hear something about it as a calm place they can hear something from us about the past in their own company and so they can hear and see something about it and they are just now beginning to unfold it. But. About this middle generation it's very difficult to say it was a we can really make good Democrats help them and the only problem is that after all we're the older generation cannot hope to leave things to the young people. There's always the middle generation that is still existent and that you want to take over the house. What exactly are you trying to do through the adult

education system with this middle generation what is the disease to which they fell victim and what is the cure. What do you have a disease is at the root of all our fish lies in mass he's still here and he swam off Basques to get people to overcome this state of hysteria to begin to feel again rationally and not to succumb to slogans and to he still states of mind. Well the second problem is how to get these people to kill all the need and to cooperate with the people they haven't been told that they've been taught that I wasn't. They can do whatever they please. Oh I still have to do what somebody else pleases. Become culpably and you. One of the paths again to try and get them to understand what cooperation

means now in our value creation system. We don't only want to teach them thinking we also want to teach them to live with other people and to cooperate with them and how much success are you having from markets you know. Well I should say they do have more success with the very young people and we have is this middle generation yet still there are signs that they are beginning to lose it. They have very good science from the younger people. When I came back to Vienna I was horrified when I went to classes. And after all like just when people were asked to put questions not what they put the question because they're not afraid to put one and the most dreadful thing was to see them or looking around and looking behind their backs because of all looking for the people who would spy on them and tell about what they are speaking. Now this is completely vanished. Nobody looks down to speak any longer

and people ask questions and if you can speak up and tell your own opinions that I think is one of the best science and that we are having some success. Could this could this disease to which this generation in Austria fell victim. Could it happen in America. When I think it could have been any company given the same conditions. I mean if you'll have a lot of people who are unemployed if your economic system is all of this arranged and if somebody comes along who preaches to these Then this but the people of Haiti can cure all the illnesses. If they would only follow him if he would only learn his slogans when you could have the same hysteria in every camp. But there's no at least immediate danger of this basic condition of unemployment and certainly in a country like America at the moment we're not at the moment but you never know when this could pay.

But apart from an economic crisis you don't see this as something that could happen in a European country or and any other country. Well even then you see we haven't had any experience. But if you could get up and saw the priest you know and even when you assist him was booking. I'm not so sure if you could have a system where everybody lives on slogans you know on the day and to have an opinion because you like the something something that you can't quite find something that you would call the evil spirit of the day. And you would no longer have to see what you think what you're seeing feel you know somehow I think you had this evil spirit like that could become the you will be introducing a great many of us from I had seen or are somewhat worried about

the development of just such a terror of of an evil spirit in America in our present very strong mood of anti-communism and of course most of us don't know any communists you who live in Europe live with communists wherever you are. We have very few I think in America. I must say I I do not know a single communist personally and I have a very wide acquaintance and I wonder if the thing isn't perhaps. Is it less dangerous or more dangerous in a country where communism is no internal danger than in a country like any of the central European countries where communism is a real internal possibility. Well it's difficult for me to say so because you see we have got very few companies do in

Australia so I can only jobs by other companies which I have seen mass parties of communism. They have always been very few communists and there are perhaps less now than ever before. But that of course is a matter of the military occupation. I don't know whether he would be more dangerous was few of his many communists. But I think there isn't so much a matter of whether there are few or many. It's a matter of whether you begin to identify all the people with them and begin to try and find out was it anybody that you don't like or who has opinions you don't like is perhaps one of them and you look at everybody from this hysterical point to feel if he beginning to be a commie and this is he trying to be a communist is about he's saying only that the communism where the

Austrians particularly or peculiarly susceptible to mass hysteria. While I wasn't here when they were. So I can see it was it was really the mass of the people. You're not when people however hail Hitler. I only heard it saw the microphone and then of course you don't know whether there are 10 people or ten thousand one hundred thousand. As a matter of fact the Austrians are not really hysterical they are far too easy going and really they are politically very rational people they don't fall easily for slogans and still it did happen here and still it did happen here was all we are very civilized. If you get a situation where the reason stops and only your emotion speaks then of course anything can happen. It's just looking at trying. To oppose you know not that you keep trying to make people be additional again.

So many of my German friends have told me that when fascism came to Italy the people of Germany said well it can't happen here because we are too civilized. Well that's about the last against it when it came to Germany this is good company because we don't want to see lines. Thank you very much for I might see Milton Mayer has been interviewing Dr. elf all veg and Frau Gertrude my good senior the program you have just heard has been made possible under a grant from the fund for adult education an independent organization established by the Ford Foundation. These programs are prepared and distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters in the interests of better international understanding. This program was introduced by Norman McKee and this is the end E.B. tape network.