Exploring the child's world II; 4

The Duquesne University Alumni Association presents. Exploring a child's world. The child is father to the man. And as we hope for a world of men of good will we must look to the conditions of the child's where to achieve it. So we search for the laws ways and means the sources of the capable spontaneously whole adult. It is not strange that the world of the disturbed child throws light on childhood in general. Although Father Francis Duffy Professor of Sociology at Duquesne University was not at first looking for this light when he started

working with a disturbed child. He found however that it is not that the disturbed or delinquent child is completely removed from society rather that his position is more extreme and so its obviousness offers us a sharper clearer insight into the world of children to share the fruit of his research. Father Duffy and the Duquesne University Alumni Association present a series of recorded interviews with delinquent children followed by a short discussion with Father Duffy's guest in which the child and his problems are explored for insight. And now here is Father Duffy. Annamarie in today's interview was a 12 year old Protestant negro child. We know that girls appear to mature about two years before boys their own age in physical social and sometimes emotional areas. Eventually of course boys catch up. But there are problems for the girl who matures prior to girls her own age just as boys face

problems if they mature more slowly than boys their own age. Annamarie might easily pass for a child of sixteen or seventeen. She's about five feet six and she weighs 130 pounds. She admits that she has run away from her home nine times in the past year or so. We feel having listened to her that she has something to run away from. So far as we know she does not have anything bad to run to but we fear it will not be too long before she's picked up on the run by some unworthy magnate who will initiate her into a ruinous method of dealing with life under the guise of extracting some fun from it. Annamarie seems to be seeking for reasons why she should run away from home. The target ever angry feelings at the moment is her father. No he certainly leaves much to be desired in a father. Apparently he's angry and hostile to the child. He calls her names he teases her. He criticizes her and finds fault with her. He sets up the brother as an ideal

and sets this child up as a foil. The father's not too happy of course with the product. But we do not anticipate any radical or miraculous changes from him. We can only try to alter her reactions to her family environment and I feel that the first step is to help her gain some new insights into her situation and her problems. We could also draw from her a description of the way she handles life problems and give her a couple of alternate plans for directing her life and discharging her anger and resentments. We might even try to develop in her a sense of humor for this can come to one's assistance in times of stress. We might finally try to implant some religious or ethical values. We might try to strengthen her self-image and support her so that she will not be overcome by problems or act in a way that turns him into some form of tragedy. Let's listen then as Anna Marie explores her world. What is your name again. Anne Marie. How would you Anne Marie 12

and what's going to go to procure her public public. How far are you in school. I'm in the eighth grade is pretty good. Why did you come here the last time. Because I reel away. Did you was that the first time. First time and this is the first time you were here. Yes this is the first time here I was here. Where did you run to when you went. Six of the Times the other time I went to high. I see some special town or big town or cantors. Did you have someplace to run to or no me. We're running away from something better than I was a wreck. I was running away from home. And what's so bad about the home that would make you want to run away but can't get along with my day. I said What does he do or what do you do that he doesn't like.

I don't do anything he likes and he'll do anything I like. We just can't do all that your real dad is who your real mother to you. How many children and family. Four two boys another duo and they older than you or younger. My brother he's older than me he's 90. I have a little brother sister 3. Does the older boy work or is he married or what what's happened to him. He's not married he works he goes to college at night. He lives at home. Yeah. How old were you when you started to run away. I started in May I ran away about nine times since then. But what happens when you run. Do you take any money with you or what. Just about a dollar or whatever I have with me. I just run usually usually if my dad says I can't go out or something I leave come back three or four days

later. Stay with girlfriends most of the time. And don't these girlfriends parents object. They don't know that I'm running away. Well can you just pretend that you're visiting for a couple days. But I think you see that you can't make the wrong arrangement you just can't keep running away all the time moving in with other girls. Did you ever think of staying home and fighting the thing out talking you know working you know. Yeah that's what they sent me home last time for once he sent me home to my hearing I was only home for three weeks and railway again didn't show up for my hearing that's why I'm here now. When you think the big problem is once a year you fight over it with your dad did. Is he a drinker. Oh no. I just can't go along with him. Does He Like You. No he doesn't you know like Neal.

How does he show that he doesn't like you just by the way he acts I can tell. And how does he act what to some of the things he does when he's acting. Oh I don't talk to me like I was through tough times other times he would be giving me like Cheers and that so he doesn't approve of you or what you do or what you choose or the way you are you know. Did you ever try to please him. Try to be the way he wants you to be. What would it take to make you do things his way. Oh I don't know. I would be terrible be sitting around the house all day. I know he likes me to sit around the house and bake all the time to bake yam do work and bake stuff cook and all of that. Like you know maybe you're only 12 years old and he wants you to be a housewife. Yeah. What does your mother. Doesn't she do any of these things. I mean he wants me to help her.

How I operate. I do love the work around the babies and that he likes me to just be around home. He don't like me going out so much and he don't like me going boys especially from your side. Are these prepared boys not the ones I know he thinks they are that just because they're from the north. But he was born a lawyer so I know he wasn't born there but he was brought up on the other side and around there and I don't know what he sees wrong with it. Did you ever think that there was something wrong with you. No you didn't. You know it's really something wrong with him. Yeah well I have to blame everything on him that helps a little bit and that helps you or helps him good helps me. You know when you might take sides who side she takes usually Mo and then he gets mad at her so she takes his side you know to him but she most of the time takes my side. Like this last time I ran away she blamed

it on my dear. I see because me and him were having an argument. It was just a couple days before my hearing I was supposed to. It was on Sunday Sunday afternoon. My hearing was supposed to be on Tuesday and I ran away after me and him were arguing started from him making fun of my clothes and that I notice he disapproves of your friends. He also the surprise of your close to her and he disapproves of your way to go out. Does he also disapprove of the way you get along at school. You know I get along in school pretty well. I make about when they are being average he gets mad when I get CS he wants me to get a scholarship tell me something that happened when you were a real little girl maybe 3 or 4 something that happened. Yeah well you may well anything you can recall from the time that you were very small. One time I snuck in school when I was about 3 or 4 years old.

What happened. My mother noticed me gone. She didn't know where I was so she went to school but the teacher said she'd let me stay there in an afternoon. Let's see I got her there the head with a headset once a home either. I can't remember probably around three or four. And how did it happen. The little were upstairs and they were having a fight. So he hit me with a hatchet. He was playing around. He played pretty rough. Though you can get hurt that much the mostly we was there I got hurt. I still got the scar from that. Yes and one more thing. Something else that happened from when you were little. I can't remember. I remember how me and my brother used to see we only had three rooms in that house because we lived on the first floor and we used to sleep in the living room and my mother and dad slept in the billiard room.

My brother would always tell us see we lived right on the Ohio Boulevard and you could see never wollen from there and I always thought that was across the ocean or something and he used to tell me stories about how they were going to attack us and they were Russians and all that. I said that's mostly all I can remember. Let me ask you this who's the bad guy in the family. Me are you. Yes. And who are you Mike. My mother says I'm like my I knew how to be a mother sister was a bad girl. She wasn't real bad. But she was always loafing around in gangs and that and she's real big and fat like my mother says I you're big in fact here. How much do you weigh 130. My mother says I remind me of her because she's my mother's younger sister. She says she was always getting in trouble in that. And one year I got in trouble. My grandmother probably punished her because my grandfather is me and your

father is treating you the same way your grandfather used to treat you right. Did your aunt ever in a way. Yeah sometimes when there's a bad one in the family what they do is if they have a bad one the next family among the younger children they can make her like the older one was and then they complain that she is that way. Yeah. MARTIN We get along real good. I stole your house for Christmas. You're just like she's weird we get along real good. And who's a nice one in a family like my little sister the best. And my mother who's next I guess my older brother my younger brother. And where's property how do you like you and the boy. Does he have a favorite Who is your dad's favorite my brother the oldest one and your mother's favorite. Who's that. Is living my little sister I see my dad is real proud of my

older brother and that he's always bragging about him. Does he do the things that your dad does. My brother was brought up and lived a different life than my dad. He always lived with step parents he never lived with his real parents and his step dad his real mother dad and the stepmother and the step dad and he had two step fathers are really his stepmother by the time he came to Spain mixed up. He's always telling me all the sneaky stuff you used to do like setting things on fire and all that but when I do anything wrong yeah it was your dad then was it. I would like to know what he was sneaky. He won't allow me to do mostly anything he don't like me to get in cars. He doesn't like me to go out with boys. He's not like most of my friends in there. My mother she don't mind it that much she not like me to get in cars though. But my older brother says it's OK he says that I'm old enough that I shouldn't be

going out with boys from your side because he don't like kids from lawyers and they're beginning fights and that he's always coming home or caught up in everything. Even now he doesn't know her own though he's been in fights lately a few months ago years and since you've been coming here have you. You talk as I kind of just you know I'm supposed to but he won't come up. Why do they want to talk to him Do you think. Well the judge says I have to talk to him to find out why I do the things I do and do you know. No. I don't know why I run away so much. Mostly to get away from home and that despite there he wants by you for YOU want you even with your friends. Yeah but what did he do to you besides the things that you've told me about that you want to get even with him so strongly. It's just that he's always telling me that I'm so bad that my brother is so good in everything.

What he's doing is comparing the two of you and then you lose her. I say I usually do lose. Where is your brother more. Is he handsome or is he strong. You know he's always big in the kids and he was when he was in high school he was captain of the football team. He was senior personality and all that kind of stuff. People ask him about me doesn't like to answer because I've been up in court and that and I'm always getting in trouble I was in trouble in Ohio when I ran away. What kind of trouble did you get into there. Put up for running away. I had to stay in that detention home overnight and stuff like that. I see. And they had to get me and we caused a bunch of trouble up there. We told them we lived in West Virginia and everything and I was throwing rearview all at the car. I can't help it he was giving me dirty looks I threw ravioli at him. Thank god man told me I was messing up the floor so we flooded the floor.

Made it all wet. And we were throwing water all over the place. You couldn't get even with your father shaken even with a policeman. Yeah he did. The card didn't say nothing there because he thought I was crazy. Today I thought I will come to you independently that you were crazy good came to me that I don't think I am. I just like to do things until everybody calls me crazy. I do a lot of people call you crazy to hear my drill and everybody I says I was born crazy. He says the music I listen to is enough to drive everyone else crazy to you know write mostly anything I do and you know like the music I listen to the friends I hear the clothes I hear he out like anything I think he just plain doesn't like you. And yeah he doesn't like me or anything associated with me. Does he like your mother. Yeah every now and then they quarrel. They never fight.

Your father shows he likes John he's fond of him. He likes Billy to the little one. Yeah. He says he's a pastor and he like your sister you know. Let me ask you this. Are these three people nicer to your dad than you were you think would that be part of it. Oh I don't know. But from what you've seen would you say that they are nicer to him than you are. I guess they are. Do you think then that if you were a little bit nicer to him maybe he might be nicer to you. Well he was nicer than me I'd be nicer to him but he was darkly and nicer first because he's always you know that that's true but you see you can't control what your father does. You just control what you do you think that if you were nicer to him he might start being whole bit nicer to you. I don't know what you're saying is it has to start with handedness. Yeah because I'm stuck on your dad he's he's stubborn too. You might get that trait from him. He says I get it from my mother but my mother says I get it from him.

So neither your mother or your father wants to take the blame for you though. What do you think is wrong. How are you different from anybody else other girls. That would make him just like you. Oh you're might be too. What to worry about. He says I remind him of a wild Indian or something. He says I'm always getting in trouble can stay out of jail. Do you remember when he would kiss you good night before you went to bed. Bring your glass and cookies you know. He always tells my mother to do everything. Maybe in a way you needed to him too when you didn't have him. I guess so. Would you like him to be nicer to you. Yeah. Do you think you can see any any more clearly now why you run away when low to spite him. Usually when I run away come back he won't talk to me. So to say that I stay on by a week and then run away again. They had everyone

looking for me. My dad was looking for me. Detectives plainclothes cops everything. That was pretty exciting for a while but I had fun reading from there. If they had stopped chasing you you probably would have stopped running. You probably would come home. Yeah I guess so. There was no excitement there wouldn't be no use in running anyway. I like to cause some excitement. Have you ever caused any excitement around school. Yeah I caused a big commotion in that my boobs will not fly around or lower burbled the flu or something. I threw my book real high and scream and everything. You start hollering roaches are coming and then all that stuff like that the first quires I get in trouble I'll certainly go in there he said for the rest of the year because I he's a menace to junior school and everybody told me to be good in his class so I just decided to be Baiae because he thought he was so tough and I talked back to him and everything.

Doing everything you told us not to do. He got mad he was something like your father I think. Yeah he was brother than everybody else. I just wanted to show him I wasn't afraid of him. I see another class were going to there's a study hall. I kept asking that guy to sharpen my pencil. I shortened about 50 times in each class. Walking around the room we just used to do stuff like that and the other time I didn't have school and I had been through the school a couple times because I was in there when I wasn't supposed to me. I say is there anything else I think we've got to go back now three years it's time for you go to bed. All right. And now joining father Duffy to discuss the features of this child's world is his guest Mr. Patrick Tamilians director of the Domestic Relations Court of Allegheny County and an alumnus of three schools of the University College of Arts graduate school and law school. Here are Father Duffy And Mr. Patrick to Melia.

We welcome back again Mr. Patrick to Millie a director of the Domestic Relations Court of Allegheny County today. Nice to to know you. I thought that this little girl Annamarie It almost gives us a foresight into what I think is it going to be a tragedy someday. As you well know in crime investigation records and even fiction we find a woman is killed and we look around. You don't have to look very far perhaps possibly the husband or the boyfriend or the stranger. He recruits her very often either from the home or from the tavern. And very often she's divorced or she's you know single an alcoholic who can't get anybody or she's a child. And I was anxious to hear what you drew from this particular little girl. Well I think you're perfectly right in saying that this girl I think has a good picture of what is perhaps perhaps a tragedy pattern. Here she is she is practically driven from our home by a

father of a kills her disapproves of or. She desperately wants his affection and his attention. And I would say that even though she's 12 years old the next day like when involvement and relatively few months perhaps will be a sexual involvement she'll be out trying to win the affection of some boy or maybe she'll even be spotted by some pervert who wants to think advantage of a young girl who needs affection and so often in these cases the young girl will take the first adult who appears to be accepting of him. And this can lead to very serious and tragic tragic consequences as she develops she becomes older and her associations will become more loosened and should become involved with the men who inhabit bars and maybe some of you have an early marriage to somebody who has not. Two suitable and you can just say all types of possibilities in this kind of thing. And as we know these statistics show that most murders are a result of family

tensions or tension between a man and a woman either in a family situation or in some pick up at a bar or some sexual involvement which actually is it leads to violence so that it's a very appropriate. Part of this particular case. I get the impression the feeling too that the father is trying to prevent just this very thing but he certainly uses the wrong methods to go about preventing it. Well the thing here is that it appears to be lacking as a communication between the Father and the daughter. Yes and she's indicated he's never kissed her never brought her a glass of milk he won't sit down and talk to her he just yells and screams at her. He is doing exactly what is necessary to drive this girl out of the home and if there is one thing that he wanted to do and he is doing it very successfully and I doubt my own personal experience as a probation officer in the Northside district to which reference is made here what sustain what this father is saying and what the girl mentions now the father has lived around this area he knows this girl is fair game for a lot of these things. She's pretty big

three and 30 pounds 12 years old right and the way she talks to her feeling and her expression are those of an advanced mature girl and she's acquiring an image of herself she would define herself with the type of person her father is trying to prevent her from becoming. Just because of some of the things that the father is dying now he is quite right in saying that the north side is not a place for 12 year olds. You're all going to be running away to war to be associating with the various characters in the neighborhood. You feel too that this girl pretty much put her finger on one of the seat of her problem is this that she's going to show her father. She's going to show the policeman she's going to show the people in detention home he's going to show the teacher. I think she has a real drive in the area of kind of thwarting authority or making it look ridiculous. Well as we know in our experience in working with children who become delinquent. Part of the pattern is antagonism toward authority. It starts with the

parents if they don't have the respect for the parents and they don't accept the parents in their proper position then they equate any external authority so that of the parents and they react to external authority in the same way they have learned to react to the parents in this case it's spite she herself said she's going to spite her father when she's dealing with any other adult who is in a position of authority. She will treat that adult in the way she has learned to treat her father. She'll antagonize the teachers you'll antagonize the police and she expects from them just about what she gets because she herself has learned that this is a result of her actions which she has acquired is because this is the way she is trying to get attention from her father. Yes and she appears so surprised that people would treat her like like that. Well I don't really think she's surprised. I don't think she is planning. She may pretend surprise but I think she really expects this reaction. You don't see this is a child who is exhibiting some of the more normal drives to be independent of.

Father of parents you know I I believe that this is too early. This is much too long this girl is fairly advanced and mature for a 12 year old. I don't think these drives for independence common until 15 maybe 16 years of age that that type of a situation is normal to most adolescents. But here this is a pathological emotional state in her and I don't think she's abnormal in most respects. Still she has a pathological logical approach to resolving problems with people in authority. And it's much too early in her life I think to say that this is a normal condition. Well this has given it certainly is something to think about and something to possibly be concerned about if not worried about so that we can prevent and setting up the kinds of patterns that will result in what you have very nicely called a tragedy pattern in the child. And I thank Mr. Banta M.E. director of domestic relations court for being with us tonight and adding to this wisdom we're trying to develop in this area of dealing with children as we explore their world.

You have been listening to exploring the child's world. The program in which the child speaks. Father Francis Duffy Professor of Sociology at Duquesne University has conducted the interview with the child and to find the outlines of this world in the discussion with his guest Mr. Patrick timidity. This has been a presentation of the radio service of Duquesne University in preparation with the Kings Alumni Association technical director Fred McWilliams program director an announcer. Or older may listen again next week for another in the series exploring the child's world. The interview heard on this program was a recreation exploring the child's world is distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This is

the end I ybe Radio Network.