Couchiching conference; 3

A. Coaching conference 1959 in the first two sessions of this conference on changing Asia here in Geneva park on the shores of Lake witching Ontario. We tried to show something of the turmoil that is shaping Asian countries today. On Saturday it was surveyed the different forms taken by this revolution. Yesterday we dealt mainly with China and heard about the social changes developing under the communist government. Tonight we look to the future the Asian road to progress as seen through Asian eyes. The panel of distinguished Asians speakers will be introduced by our chairman a Canadian born and brought up in China. Who has paid a visit there again recently. Edward gelap QC we are meeting tonight with foreign eminent Asian. All of whom have had a wide and varied experience in the east that all of whom have also had the advantage of it as an advantage of coming to know the way very well. Through years of study or work in

Europe or North America. The first of our guests this evening. Dr. Ellen and top of the hour. Is the ambassador to Canada from Indonesia he was educated in his own country and in the net of them. Before the war he was a member of the Dutch Labor Party and a problem entry candidate. His activity as an underground fighter resulted in his appointment to the Dutch parliament after liberation. He resigned from that office in 1947 and became Indonesia's spokesman at the United Nations until 1953. He has also served as ambassador to India to West Germany. And to the US as are. Dr. Bellair. May I ask you what would you say. The basic primary need of an Asian country in these

times in finding its own road to progress. It's a German if I think of progress for our newly free country in Asia. And then I think in the first place of getting rid of my poverty marked poverty ignorance hunger. Do you accept that in order to get rid of these three things you don't want the economic development fund economically for development and in order to have a viable long development we must have a government that must be able to work for a certain period say for a while here. That means that in the first place there must be a stable government. Thank you sir.

Our second guest just CSM Khadijah. Is High Commissioner for India to Canada. He was educated at Madrid and London and Cambridge. And then he rose through the Indian Civil Service to become Rural Development commissioner in Bari and later agent for the Government of India in Malaya. During the war he was prime minister of God and. The part coming to Canada in 1958 he was also Secretary to the Ministry of State and for three years secretary to the President of India. Mr. Bennett had a chair. The theme of tonight's discussion as you know is Asian road to progress. Would you say that the idea of progress means the same thing in Asia in the West. Or is there a significant difference. I believe it is significant that progress is a wholly

veteran concept. It handed. In early Christianity. And is related to purposefulness in history. When the Western impact took place in India and other Asian countries. What came about was not progress. A lot of changes. Some introduced internationally some deliberately and some without any part of it is the changes which are in progress today. And when these changes take some shape then we will have the Asian counterpart of what you invest call progress. Thank you. We have our Dr. A distinguished Islamic scholar who was born in Pakistan. And graduated from the University of Punjab at Lahore he continued his work in Islamic culture at Oxford where he was awarded a doctorate of philosophy and then became a lecturer at Durham University. He's the author of

several learned works including prophecy in Islam. Dr. Rahman is now an associate professor in Islamic studies at McGill University and makes his home in Montreal that you lived in Canada for some time. But your home is in Pakistan. Do you think it's possible for us to generalize about Asia as we sometimes do either only one or two Asian roads to progress are. Are there many. Or. The word progress really is a very relative term. And it seems to me that when applied to different contacts within Asia or outside Asia it has a different meaning.

If I may just recall Professor Dobson remark. On the first night here. He talked of revolution in the world the political revolution in Asia and what he called the technological revolution with its attendant. Consequences. In the West now it seems to me that the this revolution which involve these deep changes in the whole social cultural thinking is going on at the same time in Asia and now with the political revolution. This is they're part of a common problem for both east and west. Namely to decide what progress is. Nevertheless. Since these changes are occurring in Asia.

Forces are let loose there. Which will work. Either speedily or. A little more heartily. It is clear if you look at the map of Asia that the Asian themselves have taken as many parts as the whole world at large. The real communism in Asia there is attempted democracy in Asia. And there are other experiments in Asia. Which are aimed at. Educating the people. The word democracy I don't or do not think that Asian Robel are indeed just as the order of the world at large are not similar. Thank you. Doctor hand is a visitor to Canada for the first time.

But of course she's already very well known on this continent for her books. Not only the novel a Many Splendored Thing but others set in China Malaya and Nepal. She was born in Peking and had personal experience of both war and civil war. For some years she attended universities in China Belgium and England practiced as a physician in Hong Kong and Singapore and has traveled very widely and recently throughout China and other parts of the. DOCTOR AND PEOPLE IN THE WEST up and speak of Asia as being divided in twain. The People's Republic of China and two of the small neighbors in one camp and all the others in another camp. Do you think there is any validity in their view of Asia. I think that is a simplified view of Asia and one which does not

but the other countries of Asia apart from China into perspective. I think it is true that the great giant. Pink penumbra of China fall perhaps too strongly for many people upon the rest of Asia. I prefer to consider China as only one country in Asia and I think that will divide Asia into tool is to make one more of those few trial divisions which keep this one small world of ours in a constant state of tension. I do not therefore approve of this division of Asia because I think it is unfair to every country in Asia. As my colleagues on this panel have said and I agree fully with them they feel and I certainly agree with them that each one of their country although perhaps smaller in the mansion is quite as able to follow his

or her own way to develop the. Eye itself. Just as China has and not necessarily imitating China. In other words although I feel that all the countries of Asia. Interact upon each other a greater scope might be given not to dividing them into your tool but to seeing each one of them in the perspective of the whole. Yes thank you. Beauty of the People's Republic of China has much in common with the other Asian countries today. It has in common what is excellent. The ambassador Palla said hunger. Want to be ignorant. This is the war that all is your fight the war against one and each nation in Asia will tell you the same and indeed even highly industrialized Japan Japan. Which to my mind should be the leader of Asia and not China

Japan which is the most highly industrialized the most phenomenally able to look after herself a country which has made such a startling recovery after a terrific war. Even in Japan I can say it in the same way. Suffering perhaps not directly from hunger and want but from the shadow of. Incipient want and incipient hunger due to overpopulation and too small a space. Do you think this has something in common with your country Dr. Pilar. Hunger and water. Oh certainly. Although my country is a tropical country. We have already put our soil. But we have a population of almost 200 million. So Overpopulation causes hunger. If you mention the need for stable government to

overcome your problems you care to say more about that or that term which has been given a guided democracy in. The name of government. We can't have people government in a parliamentary democracy too. But we have been experimenting with parliamentary democracy and we have made a mistake because we are inexperienced and well of course we have not had the same development as Europe for instance or a murder where we have been playing the democratic game for about two centuries. We must know how to plead it. Well that is why we have been trying to grant the democracy now guiding democracy or speaking about guided democracy. When you speak about guided the market in Europe and in

America they immediately think about people you mock about communism. Well and we have been always accused of being commonly or harkening or having meaning. Why I've got a democracy in my country because we are practicing the art of about two years is quite different from the God of the economy. Got a democracy which is important. God it is the Communist Party. It is the only party that guides the country the government guides the society and the guidance is being imposed. Nobody can say no in our country we have our guidance given to the cabinet by a national council it is given and why it is democratic guide it is quite different from a different form imposed

dictatorial God you be a little inevitable at the present time. Well anyhow for my country it is in the world and we are right. They have already taken military leadership. There is in our opinion going too far. But of course that is division and we are we don't know better than the than the people who are now trying to teach people Democratic discipline by going through military discipline. I think that is the explanation for these are going to be the are either more fortunate or that began and I are now without military leadership. Trying to guide our democracy democratically. Not to Rahman. Well and they've had in my previous remark. Democracy in Asia really

is a very problematic. Term. Indeed demography on the whole is an ideal to which nation only approximate. We know that the best type of democracy that I know of in Britain. However the basic problem in Asia is that is normal. Which is conscious of what it calls progress and which is conscious also of what are called nationalism. Ill say in each case by huge Martin who I think know neither nationalism nor private. How is this progress to be implemented. Now in my own country they tried to implement it through a parliamentary system of government. But we were inert market. And given a

an elite in which struggle for personal power politics is rampant. The counsel for the success of democracy are nil and in general are you took over during the past years. The administration had become corrupt and as a friend of mine had remarked. The policy makers are the rulers really became agitated and the civil servants whose job it well to enlist became policy makers. In order to remedy this this regime came on. We have now promised that they are going to reintroduce. Democracy in this way. Namely they have promised that next November there will be local election town and village election and from the elected

people they elect the district council and from this a council they elect. Their elected provincial legislators and hold the central government but they have heard all of that. In our country especially electioneering is a particularly dirty game and many people who are good people. Professionals lawyers doctors for instance who don't want to bury their hands in the belief that a certain number of billions will be nominated. Now I do not know how or what proportion of these are going to be nominated and at which stage they are going really to be known to the village council level or at the provincial level or at the central level. Anyhow it seems to me quite obvious that these people who are military leaders no doubt are making a very genuine effort

to keep as much up democracy as possible and to clear away part of what our democracy as possible Mr.. Well so far as democracy is concerned in India have got an excellent record. That. When we talk about democracy it seems to me that we must make a clear distinction between democratic spirit and democratic form of government. Now democratic spirit is something that is fundamental. That is related to the idea that people must participate in making decisions in making laws and there should be proper approval for the decisions of the government. A democratic farm program and by the presidential system and our parliament a democracy are kind of a variation of it like a

democracy. Deal of area guarding to the circumstances and conditions of each country. In India. As But have another Asian country it takes some time for these democratic forms of government to take shape. You two are they are there to shout and cry democracy has failed. The question deals obviously people reject the democratic way of life on Mars. They believe in the fundamental values of democratic spirit in India I claim and I think is based on an actual claim is based on the fact that the U.S. we have had some tradition of democratic spirit in India the president had bad village councils and tried. The idea of the Hindu Islam as a religion of tolerance and we also believe that it is better to count heads rather than break heads. Do we have a democratic tradition. But Indian democracy is not a complete success in the sense that we are able to work it out according to the textbooks of a parliamentary democracy where in

England our in our in America we have our difficulties but those difficulties are there by a practice. My experience will be able to all come them. We have had two elections and those elections if we had been fair and really impartial elections. Our parliamentary government in the provinces are working with a reasonable amount of efficiency. We have all been very progeny again inheriting a very fine administrative apparatus and in fact the whole day our whole history or the British role in the last hundred years all that India in management of freedom. Through a modern to the apparatus of a modern state and that has helped us in developing our democratic form of government. I want our take the view that democracy as a democracy must have a long period of travel. Therefore you can say it is not successful in the Asian country.

These are the difficulties of working a complicated system. Some of which have no roots in our country and some of the values have yet to aquire some meaning within the context of each national society. Well I think what my colleagues have said is very clear that they're far to go back to a question cannot be divided into. That each country is going to devolve devolve its own way. We are going to have guided democracy in Indonesia. We have got military democratic dictatorship in Pakistan. We have got the mark of parliamentary democracy perhaps the nearest approach to it in India. We have got other forms of militant military socialistic or Democratic semi dictatorship here there and everywhere. We have also got communism in China. And therefore I think that any division is superfluous. It is rather dangerous because it is

too simple. I would like to have to make one small division and this division is not based on politics but is based on something else which is the relative wealth of these countries. It is obvious to me traveling in Asia that there are countries which are more favored by heaven than others. And I would say that the small countries of Southeast Asia are possibly more favored in that way. I would take it as an example of Malaya and Singapore as being at the moment probably the wealthiest the richest country and therefore the country most able to afford possibly a stable democracy. I think malaria has had a great many problems problems which I have tried to put in a book incidentally but that it has brought great luck through with them and through a great sense of tolerance in it multi-racial society has been able to fill many of them I think at the moment it is well on the way there with hitches of course are perhaps also acquiring some formula of

democracy on its own. But as I say I think that is possible because Malaysia is a small country there are only 67 million people and it's a rich country. And you say that for some other countries in Southeast Asia and which are more wealthy and with a small population democratic form of government with a more democratic elite in charge doing really the guided democracy stand. But on the other Wade and other names I would possibly be the better form of government and would therefore prove that democracy has not failed in Asia. Well now we've been talking about forms of government thinking out the road to progress. I wonder if we shouldn't also direct our mind to the social rather than the political problems which we've heard a great deal of this conference about the need for industrialisation for technological development in all Asian countries.

I should like to ask you a doctor. Or whether you think that. The religious and social framework of Asian societies. Have seriously obstructed economic development. Which has been attempted in recent years. I'm not an expert on religion but I don't think that religion has obstructed. The. Development of economic development in social institutions. DENI And I think they have expected it. I think I should leave the Indian situation to my colleague. I think that the ME have some trouble on that death.

But in my country in my country the social the social. More economic situation and beauty that is left by the Dutch colonial was really very bad in this sense that. Because of the way the Dutch colonial rule has taken place in Indonesia. In which for centuries a private a private company and later on the government itself. Monopolized everything in my country where the government was the entrepreneur in using the country and it ended crashing. And using all the money that came in the treasury just

partly for Indonesia underwrite when Han. Went to Holland. So if it was done by the government Why are government. Now that has cost. The people of just the capital among the people. That is why our people were not able. To see the complete modern capitalism. This was brought to Indonesia. That was the reason why foreigners kept the economic development in their hands. We were economically broken when they came. When we got the opportunity to start our own economic life. That's why we have to pay very well for the sharp measures. To get back to people who believe to be an economic a proper

economic state again you. Straightaway get rid of religion. Religion plays no part in a secular state today. Two warring religions and with the creation of Pakistan. Religion is completely out of the way in India. But your help. I mean but so here again a very profound significance not only to India but to the many countries in Asia. Remember they say that the Indian nationalism which had been in existence and effectively over the last 40 years and as it was dark by Mahatma Gandhi. Was an educational moment. It brought home to the Indians many lessons not only the past but the need to

change. And Mark the greatest social reformer had. Briefly three problems. Firstly the problem of untouchability you know the conscience of the Hindu people and made them feel that it is a blot on their civilization and there can be no equality unless they went to the root of the problem. Well by attacking untouchability he also if they attack the car mentoring the two are linked to the map mouth for the car. Moment by attacking the out moment for the amelioration the conditions out there they can name outnumber the greatest feminist. Long ago before India became independent he said there should be noted ability placed on women and he made women take part in the martyrs and the completely brought about by an educational process.

The great revolutionary change in the mentality that women have and I can tell you that the Indian be able to see the Indian men had never been jealous of the progress made by women. Now DeLay the question of tackling the life in the villages where traditionally India divide 80 percent of our people live in 600000 villages in India. Mark Moran the era of the conscience of the people to see that the conditions of the market. Therefore the social changes in India are not impeding. Actually they are helping you see the progress of nationalism and the economic changes slowly take place. You will see that if you take soundings now at the what I call the deeper feel of all you will see how they really are the past are being slowly are. It is a slow moment because you are doing it in a democratic way because you do it in a very hasty manner are by forcible method. For social agendas are of

essential importance to us it seems to work. At present that the traditional ways of life which act as a drag through rapid modernization. They are not in the sense you see they are not really obstructing us. They are slowing down the wheels of the progress momentarily and to be able change the momentum gained will be greater. And I can recall from my own early days for example in our been like today in India there is no feeling about God it is true car in the villages and ordinary people. But I want that if we would go for any leather garment. That garment work to destroy the foundations of the Lord. There is nothing to take the place created is whacked. In fact communism are something else that you people drag will come in. There for the process. And neither religion today standing in the way of progress and they be able. Not the social structure.

But a moment. I fear that my family gradually passed the remote to their decks that they make it as in a much more that way. Well if the question is put in this way. Religion in the economic progress of Asia. My own harem will be largely No. The perpetual president of the cowards in India the perpetual absence of the pig from Pakistan. And all these are factors but I don't think they hindered our speed up the economy of a country so appreciably. The fundamental question seems to me is that at least certain Asian countries have decided consciously or

subconsciously that economic progress is one aspect of progress and that by sheerly making economic progress you have to introduce far reaching changes in your society. Now they have decided that they will look a little bit before they leap and they will take steps they are taking steps but slow steps. If they had a moment to what Dr. Han said somewhat cuttingly about the difference between Chinese community and the military democratic dictatorship of Pakistan. She said that I

did. Now it seems to me not if another man comes to me and that I'm off. It is hard to be large and economic. Our total changes from religio cultural change such.

And it also may make one remark about what Mr. Van said. I think you have been a little unjust to Mr. Gandhi saying that because these personalities of the 20th century. Indeed it will he who brought in politics within the power of religion to write that not disappearing from India. And I thought that the term between the secular religion sincerely and the other afforded by the I think some kind of reconciliation our interaction will have to be before India. Its about well I

congratulate my colleague from Pakistan on having India on one side and China on the other. Having put her back in our place. That is indeed a great feat for a fine militant country but I'm afraid that I'm correct. He does not seem to have understood what I said yesterday. I was talking of semantics in the context of China and certainly did not mean to refer to Pakistan at all. I did mention democracy. I didn't mention others in order to show why one could not and I had not. The dictatorship but not in any other context. If I have been clear on that point I would like to make it clear today. As I said today I think I'm tired and that is one thing that I have carefully

refrained from doing and that I think always refrain from doing interference in other countries. And this is a thing that we do not like. As you know very well Mr. Rahman. I think we have some time together a little bit now. I cannot talk about the car because that would be interference with my colleague from India and they are happy as they are I said the reason why I should criticize them. We have the problem of the big. My friend from Pakistan is a Muslim and people population and the Chinese the Chinese the Muslim cannot abide. They live together.

They live together but I am. My many friends and I have many friends who I'm with limbs and I'm very proud of their friendship. I live in some houses and no pigs in the is allowed next to them and the Chinese have their own quarters and they keep the pig carefully away from any man. The same thing applies to dogs. No Muslim allowed dogs and whenever any of my Muslim friends come to my house I immediately tie my dog up in the back yard and saw these mutual tolerances we have to practice one and all and I think that religious tolerance on the whole even when you know applies to dumb animals exist on a large scale in Asia and I would like to corroborate them for what my colleagues say that we do not feel none of us feel that religion is really going to be one of the great big drawbacks to development.

One of these developments set for the only problem of progress and I do believe in progress perhaps that the European part of me the only the only drawback to progress in Asia. Is the speed at which it develops because. I think however much some of my colleagues may like to make it slowly that while people are dying while they wait in their villages 20 or 30 years for reform then the opportunity for something drastic for the man who does give you a kick in the back but get you to do something about it is much greater. Would you like to come in and I only like to make one connection with my doctor. You have no religion in India. All the fact

that development in India is no longer valid because the religious difference and what I know about a lot of it and I know. Religious religion Hindu is very great in the minds of millions of people in India. Make a little correction. I agree with the conclusion that religion is not an impediment and it is not religion or the progress it is actual moment which represented by nationalism our working of democracy people learning quickly. It is that it will be called in and we hope you'll get over this difficulty. But you will remember that merely because you

see that being practiced in China we should give up our attempt at Democratic merely because in fact we are still not convinced that China is going to solve the problem completely by China but we don't feel it like that in any way even if we are a little bit delayed in our overall program. It Better stick to the matters which we had thought. And we have got a number of our own difficulties in our community development projects have not advanced to that speed with you hope but these are what we call bottlenecks which you have got to clear. If you get beat that example in the company get out of projects we have difficulty in training. Now as I said earlier we have got 600000 villages. We don't have that number of men and women matters. Because if we impose something very strict

draconian methods but have we may be able to do it. But these are the difficulties of progress which I thought I might put large differences about behind the event if I may now mention Canada and the West. We do a great deal of talking about Western cooperation with particularly the underdeveloped countries of Asia. I mean I put this question to you Dr. Bellair Could you tell us in a few words. What kind of cooperation is most welcome or most appropriate in your view in the military economic political. Personal or military cooperation. Well it depends on the countries concerned. I think and how my country. I don't want to have any military cooperation with any other country

and we don't want to be helped militarily. We want to be helped with our own to take care of our own situation and to be strong enough. To prevent interference from outside. If our are going to be are given to us we want to abide. We don't want to get it as if we can't buy ours from any country that is prepared to sell us. We will be very grateful for that kind of cooperation. Me and happy economic cooperation. Well we need economic aid. But economic aid should be given if we need it where we need it not it should not be such

that another country. This is what you need me take it. And there are strings attached. Well then we are there. You don't listen. And I don't eat I don't remember anymore what you said person 0 0 8 8. We want to have from any of the way back. I hope Canadians qualified as many Canadians Dr. Ram and I believe your country did enter a military alliance. Yes indeed. Now the relationship between the countries of Asia and the US come about different levels. I want to take the military side quite with the first sentence out of it. It seems to me that the

well-known struggle that is being waged at present. What ever country to fight for it. Safety's sake. Join a bloc. I can't let it do so. Those who think that they can manage under all. They are welcome to it. Now. There is the question of aid in general to Asia. The economic aid and I had been given it especially after the Second World War Two different isn't countries. And there have been different agencies to which this help has been given. Then I think the ideal type called the Colombo Plan which

does not seem to have raised anybody's eyebrows. This economic aid of this type in general and here is part of the uplift are the standard of living and productivity of those countries is well and good. But I'm sometimes targeted by another argument which is commonly put forward in the Western countries. This argument fails if the countries in the democratic countries in Asia. Do not produce power parity in material prosperity fast enough. Then there is the danger of their being attracted by communist countries by the communist system. And the conclusion which is drawn is that the West should give materially

to the democratic communist in the country. I don't. I must confess I do not understand this argument. It seems to me that if democracy does function in a country that it must produce results. And if it does not produce results well then you may just as well give up democracy and that democracy had what we were after it had worked there for it not to me. The economic It must continue but that there is every new Our education that is to say in these countries the harmony of democracy must be made into a really efficient and effective democracy. This to my mind is the only and the final answer to this question. Dr. Rahman thank you for those remarks and may I say that at this point we are going to invite questions from the floor.

And I'm sure that any one or all of our distinguished guests will be pleased to discuss. May I have the first question. Mr. Chairman I'm wondering whether Dr. Hans would care to say a few words with respect to the question I am now raising. It is the consensus of opinion in Asia particularly that most of the tension there is due to the fact that China represents almost 600 million people are not seated with Dr. Hans care to say. DR HANS scared to say what would be the advantages by having China seated at the United Nations and how would that relieve some of the tensions that are now facing us. I don't think it is right to say that it is the consensus of opinion in

Asia that China should be recognized or rather let me put it in this way. Let me say that there are many countries not only in Asia. But in South America in North America. In Africa and elsewhere where the people. Are a part of the people sometimes the majority sometimes the minority feel that China should be recognized and should be seated at the United Nations in Asia. I think you will find that there are some countries who do not think so. Therefore you cannot say it is a consensus of opinion. When I am countries I should again make a distinction that in these countries in each of these countries you will find people who think one way and people who think another. Therefore it is very difficult and I dislike generalisations intensely because I don't think they help for me to say whether any tension should be alleviated. There

are certain ie to my mind in my mind China should be recognised because I do feel that the non-recognition of China as it goes down is dangerous for the world and for China. Let me explain it when I say for China. And then let me explain it when I say for the well for China. Which is a which is a great nation of 600 million people and a government which in spite of being too much like a man who kicks you in the back. According to Mr. Rahman definition is the first government that has generally and in Delhi tried to do something to elevate the terrible what are the many millions of China. For this government and for this people non-recognition continues to be a searing insult. It is non realistic and therefore it is an insult which amongst in some ways by deeply one may philosophize about it one may even make

fun about it. But I think if you were in a similar position you would feel the iron entering into your soul. Now when you go on and on insulting somebody when you go on and on ill treating anyone you may expect and here I speak as a doctor. You may expect this person to develop sometimes a persecution complex sometimes other complexes. And what I fear. Is that the iron will enter into the soul of China to such an extent that she will become increasingly rigid increasingly arrogant increasingly wanting to say I can do without them. And this will place a terrible burden upon the people of China who in this at least are one with our government if they are not at one with the government in absolutely everything and they are in a great many things make no mistake about that. They may grumble at they are in control. They may feel unhappy at having to do so much but there is also at the same time a great sense

of togetherness and a sense of togetherness this sense of non criticism and the acceptance of this our control is also due to the fact that China is not recognized and are therefore it is possible for China to keep its people product government communist government to incite more enthusiasm into its people by pointing to the eternal enemy outside which does not recognize and which is from our side persecuting China. Therefore I think psychologically redound recognition is very bad for China. Non-recognition is also very bad for the rest of the world because it places the rest of the world in a state of permanent sentimental blackmail me. What I mean is that sometimes in Asia I get tired of these countries who say if we are not helped if we do not get money we shall turn to the Communists. I think that the fact that China is not recognized is in some cases

giving China an undue importance and giving everything that China does a kind of and I'm humped Lamma in the minds of many Asian countries. And finally I think that non-recognition itself is rather immoral because if it is done for the sake of communism then I don't understand why Russia is recognized or at least many Russians many Asians do not. But perhaps all these may sound a very silly way a very silly and naive or emotional or childish or Asian way of looking at the question. Perhaps there are strategic reasons reasons based on strategy reasons based on only promises made to people like me. The thing man really and other people in Asia friends of a certain Patten who have to be maintained with these moral obligations which have been entered into. I have no quarrel. I think.

Difficult for people to have. But I deplore it. I. Because. How. Do you not going to get an agreement on that and China is out of time so you do have time for the point in the book.

Yes now may I suggest that the question of Asian tensions will be quite discussed Wednesday and Thursday in the press who may turn their attention on the next question. Do the thing with Asian roads to progress. There's a gentleman in the back of my microphone movement to vote on the question of recognition which I want to direct a doctor hand if I need a. Doctor hand voting on this question there is an opinion you often see in Canada by the proponents of recognition of communist China. Do you hear me. Would you speak up please. You often hear the opinion in Canada. By proponents of recognition of communist China that the status of Formosa should remain unchanged. That is a separate status should be established for Formosa until such time as the people are allowed to vote for most are allowed to determine whether they want reunion with China. Or independence or even conceive it depends on what is the question. I'm coming to it.

I wonder if Dr. Hank could tell me whether the Chinese government in Peking would accept recognition or entry in the United Nations on terms which would leave the status of for most indeterminate of them which would be which would allow the people of promoted the right of self-determination. This question is one of the most difficult that anybody could ever be asked. I much yeah I think make clear that I do not speak for China in any way at all. I do not even live in China. I live in Belarus and I am a British subject. But I happen to know something about German to be terribly interested in the developments there. My Political Life. And there we must leave the audience at Geneva park lake which itching still discussing the different Asian roads to progress in the changing age of today. Taking part in tonight's session of the conference is actually NCL until our

invasion and vascular to count. Is Iceland ccs of uncut a char high commissioner for India to Canada. DR HANS Syrian author of many splendored thing and other novels and fall of the Roman associate professor of Islamic studies McGill University. The chairman was Edward Jolliffe QC. The program was produced by Christina McDougal with technical operations by John Skelton. The group teaching conference is a joint project of the Canadian Institute on public affairs and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Copies of the week's talks may be obtained from public affairs. 240 force in George Street Toronto. Looking again at the same time tomorrow when the topic will be western influence on Asia. This is wild Wilson saying goodnight from the coaching conference. This is CBC Radio the Trans Canada network.