Couchiching conference; 1

The Canadian Institute on public affairs in collaboration with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Bring you the opening section of the 29 annual conference here in Geneva park on the shores of Lake Ontario about 200 of us from various parts of the world have gathered to talk about and hear about changing Asia a matter of great concern to all of us in the world today. Too often we in the West tend to judge the attitudes and actions of Asian countries only from our own standpoint. At this conference we have tried to avoid this and have invited personalities from different Asian countries to come and explain to us in their own terms what is happening in India Japan China Indonesia and elsewhere. Let's set the scene for the week's conference. In it we survey the revolution in Asia. The chairman is William Jenkins minister of the First Unitarian Church in Rochester New York and a member of the Institute executive. There he is to introduce the program and tonight's

speakers. Good evening friends it's good to see so many of you here again who have been coming for many years. But it's also good to see so many new faces in the audience tonight and particularly some who come from other lands and also. Native Canadians who have lived in Asia. We hope to have a very rewarding week together here this week and hope that the weather will contribute to that as we go along. I am compelled to observe that this is changing changing as well as changing Asia and perhaps a good thing. Several of you will back me why we have chosen the subject changing Asia. And if this is not already obvious to all of us. I will only answer that it is because of history and destiny are being shaped in Asia history and destiny are being shaped in this half of the world of which we are so Wolf only ignorant

ignorant of the forces that work in this area with more than a billion people in it struggling to emancipate themselves from the shackles of the past. I might add that we have had plans under way for this program for more than a year because it takes that much time to invite the speakers and lay the plans for such a program. And here it is the planning done and we are together here tonight to talk about the revolution in Asia and we have invited as our speaker to introduce this subject and who give us something of a concept of the sweeping changes that are taking place in Asia. Mr. Nur Malo. CHOUDARY Mr. Choudary is a native of Calcutta India and a graduate of the University of Calcutta. But he has also lived many years in England and has studied at Edinburg and London. He has spent a good bit of his career as a

broadcaster and a news correspondent serving as a correspondent for papers in made in the media and India. He has just recently finished a world tour. Where he has spent a good bit of his time in the Far Eastern countries that we will have under discussion this week. I should add that Mr child Radia found an American bride in Paris a few years ago and has since become a citizen of the United States. Without any further ado I'm going to call him Mr. Choudhry to speak on the revolution in Asia. Thank you very much Mr. Chairman ladies and gentleman. It's a great honor to be had just as fountains. Historically speaking evolution in Asia has been in the offing for

nearly 75 years. Not the armed revolution that most people are acquainted with but a revolution in ideas. And they share a changing. Out of the Holocaust of the Second World War. Have come new nations enshrined in history and old in culture to take their rightful places in the comedy of nations. But the phrase staggering an almost insuperable problems sociological economy and political problems. And that is where the revolution begin. We shall not see the end of this revolution in our lifetime. So vast are the problems. Hundreds of millions of Asian people are enjoying the rather intoxicating feeling of freedom. But as leaders of many of the newly independent countries have begun to realize it is much simpler and more straightforward to launch and sustain political movements to gain freedom

than to fulfill all the promises with freedom has come responsibilities. Unfortunately some Asian leaders are simply not experienced to carry out its responsibilities. That is the reality is that people are getting a little critical of their leader. But this is a healthy sign. However it doesn't put food into the mouth of the hungry people. No doubt it's all many of the essential problems of our day. It will be presumptuous for me to try and forecast the future of the revolution. Several great forces are at work. If the revolution has any positive aspect it is the true political emancipation. It has restored self-respect to hundreds of millions of people and it seemed obvious superiority of the white races is never again going to become tenable in Asia. The degree of suspicion of the white races

varies from one Ishant country to another. It is becoming evident that a constructive working partnership can be carried out between the former colonial power and the independent Asian countries. Perhaps nowhere is this better illustrated than by the growing friendship between India and there didn't it maybe that the idea of common of a nation could use a peculiarly British innovation has something to do with it and it has something tangible to offer. Symbolic gestures mean a great deal to Asian and Commonwealth as a symbol has an appeal he defies any logic of any political theory. Last year the Canadian prime minister Mr. different Baca. Engaged in some excellent discussions on the theory of common wealth during his visit to Asia. I was privileged to attend some of these discussions when I was in Kuala Lumpur in my life. But the Commonwealth idea as a political theory has many pitfalls when it comes to Asia.

The most populous of all the Asian countries. The People's Republic of China. Has embarked on an experiment which is awesome and propulsion and far too serious in its significance. A complete transformation of social and political structure is being undertaken by a grimly determined group of people who hold sway not only over 600 million mainland Chinese but who also exercise some magnetic infant from several million overseas Chinese as well. There are countries like Indonesia. Where sympathy for the Taiwan regime by the local Chinese people is considered in the most unfavorable light. If there is a violent and continued revolution going on in any part of Asia it is undoubtedly true in the People's Republic of China. A great deal will depend on the outcome of the experiments now going on in that country. Hundreds of millions of people in

Asia have rejected the theory about ritual economy stagnation. If the People's Republic of China can produce some spectacular details to convince Asian people that communism can provide them with the basic economy of necessities of life. Then a very serious battle of ideas will have been joined. No revolution is made without great leader nation revolution has produced leaders of high caliber. But here I want to sound a note of warning. Most of the leaders in Asia are growing old and in most countries a future leader are not to be found easily. Mr Nader may still be considered a dynamic figure in India but he will be 70 years of age in a few weeks time no successor has been found. None has been trained. Missing man really is nearly 85 and Marshall Chiang Kai-Shek is 74. Mounted you know at 65 if I have more ready to give real power to a

likely successor than any of the other revolutionary leaders in Asia no one has even the remote possibility of considering himself a successor to President Sukarno of Indonesia even though President Sukarno is only 58 years old. In the particular climate in which Indonesians have to leave Mr Soprano can be considered cannot be considered young any longer. The problem succession must be faced by the leaders of Asia. Strange as it may sound no one really has thought seriously about it yet. What will happen when the architects of the Asian revolution have departed from the scene. Will the temper slow down. Will it even come to a full stop. He will be a wise man who has the answer to these and many other related questions. Taking the case of India. It's rather interesting to know that from the very humble beginning in 1885 the Indian National Congress

has played an increasingly important part in formulating idea who do eventually foresee condé in its session of 1928 29 to proclaim it's a girl who never arrives. That is complete independence. You see at the beginning the Indian National Congress Party was dominated by a group of sophisticated Indian intellectuals all of whom had received an education in England. The Congress party of the late 19th century was more like a British club. Than a political party which expresses the hopes and aspirations of the masses. For many years nobody knew what the Congress party stood for. There was a vague reference to struggle for independence but that was about all. Many people in the West to do not realize that an intense political and cultural moment had been in full swing in India for nearly 50 years. Before the hour of midnight on August 14 1947 when the flag of independent India was harvested from the Emperor I would read forward in the.

Hundreds of thousands of people have struggled for that hour. Many of them had given their lives. And yet when independence did come it was rather unexpected. Certainly the partition of the subcontinent was not envious edged but the leaders of the political movement whether it was in India or in Pakistan the revolution was thus far from complete. What happened after the partition stands as a shame to both India and to Pakistan. A river of blood flowed and indeed were drowned thousands upon thousands of innocent people. Not only that this massive tragedy left scars on both countries which have not yet healed by the passage of time. If anything the relationship between the two countries is more bitter and more unfriendly than ever before. Every day the prayers of one country accuses the other about a violation village abduction of nationals and many other crimes. Such a report

can only serve to inflame people. It is because of the differences in foreign and domestic policy. See India is a secular state and not an ally to any nation in the Cold War. Pakistan is a theocratic state and a member of Syria too. In spite of these differences the destiny of the two nations is bound together in more ways than one and Ways and Means must be found to resolve their differences. Last year I was in Japan while the following anniversary of the destruction of Hiroshima was observed. I may be pardoned if I say that while I was most impressed by the sincerity drive a piece that was quite evident in Japan. Perhaps it is well to remember the nations have a long memory. Many countries which I visited after Japan made me realize that Japanese will have to wait several more years before the memories of the dark days of the war are completely forgotten. Some of these

countries are frankly apprehensive of the new trade often launched by Japan. Perhaps they remember the old slogan greater Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. Under way Japan had launched many military aggression. However when it is all said and done it has to be admitted that Japan has undergone a revolution. Far more how to an all embracing that anybody would have thought possible. Even a few years ago. Age old customs have broken down and new vistas are continually coming up. Before the Japanese people emancipation of women is almost too startling in its bonus. It would have been unthinkable even five years ago for a commoner to marry the count in subject pan. And yet when we take a bigger formally engaged to be in fact hito the Japanese people took to the herd. Progress in Japan however has not been an unmixed blessing. There is

too much aid being in my mind of the American myth that too many restaurants in Tokyo pride themselves as the biggest and the best steak houses in the world. There are far too many Saudi women imitations of the so-called Western myth. Far too many Japanese teenagers are anxious to copy the dock and rollers of America. There is a danger. Japanese may win the battle of technology but Japan may lose. If I were to cite one single cause for the continuing under in the whole of Asia I would not hesitate to answer. It is unquestionably the phenomenal growth of the population. Sooner or later if and just to go the population. Will give rise to an explosion. But countries like Japan with a population of over 95 million they stick to a very small space. It is fast becoming a major issue in national politics. At the

moment there is no country in the world that is prepared to admit a large number of Japanese for permanent residence. Why. Call it prejudice. Call it jealousy call it anything you live. The fact remains there is no shortcut to Japanese population problem. I think it's a tragedy a large proportion that over one and a half million abortions are carried out in Japan every year in order to cause a little relief to the mounting problem of ever increasing population. Is it any wonder that the Japanese as well as overseas Chinese craft a longing eye to the vast expanses of populated Australia. A very prominent Chinese very impaired I am told me very emphatically. God made Australia for us. As yet Australia does not permit any immigration by people of Asian origin here are doing gradients of a possible international problem. I found that

there is a deep feeling in Japan that she is being discriminated against by the Western countries. Even making allowances for all the world guilt laid at her door by the Allies she feels that western Germany has received a great many preferential treatment which have been denied to Japan. I believe all Japanese feel strongly that if you are not an Asian country no atom bomb would have fallen on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You may consider this. To be an emotional evening. Be that as it may at this stage of the revolution ensure Saturday evening have far greater impact that many people in the Western countries are prepared to believe. A little while ago I spoke about the long memory of the Asian people so far as Japan is concerned. Nowhere is this more evident than in the Philippines. Talking as I did to hundreds of people in the Philippines I found that the bitterness against the Japanese is very much alive even amongst the people who are by their

training completely internationally minded. That is why I was glad to see the Jap and extended such a magnificent welcome to stand guard because if that gesture Doc looked to be the beginning of a better understanding between the two people. It will have been aware of what all the trouble and expense the Jevon had undertaken to entertain these luxury loving and rather pompous politician from the Philippines. A shrewd observer and if you live in seeing a young American diplomat put it rather neatly of any say. You and I coach if you ask a Filipino whether he the nation he would look quite volatile. He simply would not understand you. He would say but I am an American. Now I don't want to give the impression that I'm being frivolous. What I'm trying to do is not to offer platitudes because the people in Asia do not relish them any longer. Far too often better nihilistic gratitude by

utopians have done Mody service than outright hostility. What Asia needs to there is a forthright statement of fact. I do not believe that the great issue facing Asia today is communism hurt a parliamentary form of government. The great issues are very simple. Enough food and clothing and an opportunity to find some how to have productive employment. These are people things fundamental things in anybody's life. And yet. The standard of living is perhaps in Indonesia the lowest in the whole of Asia. This country and I want to deal with Indonesia just for a minute. This country is beset by problems. Which have no solution as far as I can see the leaders cannot find them. And I'm sure that in years to come these problems will multiply five years ago an armistice ended the Indochina War. After

years and years of costly and futile war. During which the French public but consistently misled by the politicians at home and generals in the field. Damas to stymie needed French influence in what has been its richest colonial position. At the same time by partitioning Vietnam it marked communism's deepest intrusion in Southeast Asia. The revolution which began by a certain independence from colonial domination has begun to give rise unfortunately to military rule in many of the countries one after another. The newly independent countries in Asia and for that matter in Africa have found it expedient to hand over power to a strong military leader. It is by no means certain that all these military figures have dictatorial tendencies but it is well known that many of them including you and I live Qana back Isaan feel that the parliamentary form of government can only give rise to near

anarchy in an underdeveloped country. They are impatient. This military leader they are impatient with the slow progress of democratic method. They want direct action and they are not hesitant to say so. Unfortunately as many generals have found out to their regret it is one thing to order. Economy can political implement it is quite a different matter when it comes to achieving this improvement. No one a bright spot in the Federation MLA is perhaps going to achieve social revolution much more quickly than almost any other part of Asia. In a multi-racial society. The key word will be harmony and that is precisely what is working for. However there is a danger signal and that is Singapore. Singapore to Chinese city and Singapore want to join the Federation at it while the unit. The federation is not particularly happy about distrust. And the inclusion of a million hardworking Chinese will not only

make my life a minority in their own country. But it'll also make it impossible for them to compete with the Chinese in the field of economics. Most of the wealth is already in the hands of Chinese businessmen and as is the case infecting the whole of Southeast Asia. Now you have this pressure from Singapore has increased. It will be difficult to have hard on trade and that will be a tragedy. Maladies of tranquility and progress. Ladies and gentleman. The theme of this address is a revolution in Asia. It is my feeling that what is happening today is nothing less than a revolution in the most populous and the largest continent in the world. It is as if we are on the threshold a momentous happening maybe a new light will come from Asia. After centuries of neglect and in many cases centuries of subjugation. Will we hope.

A sweeping picture of the development of the revolution in Asia. In the various countries and in the various aspects of that revolution and all of us are indeed grateful for your presentation here this evening. I could not help but reflect and listening to some of your comments. How similar some of the problems are to those in the West and particularly when you mention the aging leaders I could not help but think of the leadership in Germany and. The United States and France and Britain and. Also the fact of the development of

military dictatorships which has already preceded in Europe the revolution that has taken place and is now taking place in Asia. Many of you in the audience will find other things to reflect upon as we go along but now I want to call on. A man who comes from the other side. Perhaps we should say from the Oriental side of the Far East. Mr. parasolid is here to make some comments on what our speaker has just said. Mr here is. As a student of law government and diplomacy. Graduating from the Tokyo Imperial University. He also took occasion to study in the United States. Spent 10 years in the Department of Foreign Affairs in Japan and was at one time consul for Japan in the city of New York. He is a radio and

television news commentator and editorial writer and is now the editor of The Japan Times. Mr. Here itself. And you have to tell that he pointed out the. Some not the pinning to it then. Still I'd like to say something about that old point not about steak Well not about jumping. I have to admit the fact that some fearing Japan from the rest of the Asian countries in connection with that war still remains that. I'm probably believe that only the time can take care of it completely. But other times may I point out. What

we have accomplished in the. 14 in. The. Past. In the postwar day. Following. Pointed out. The president operate when. We did Japan and welcomed very warmly. But it was only president of vice president of India primary down there from India with a pan and we welcomed then quite warmly just as warmly as we gave the hotel to do. They then got here and also had the bridge of inviting many of our Prime Ministers lawn and come Badia burn. Piled on top of the prime minister of Japan to return the

call to every of the countries and in other fields the economic cooperation we have concluded some economic cooperation pact with many Asian countries and we have received over one Howden and 500 students for training technical training or study in whole from Southeast Asian countries. So even though in such a small way. But still we are endeavoring very hard to become about the real friendship and spirit of cooperation with the rest of the Asian countries so that the one point the second one is population. It is really a political problem to Japan. I admit

that but our beliefs are terribly pointed out. The population problem cannot be solved by migration immigration map immigration. What we repair now is seeking for progress in the region of the country. The problem great problem in Asia from now on is the gap between the rapid growth of population and the growth of industry in Japan. We have found that we have to speed up the in the nation and the growth of population to bottom them. Then we might have the complete a complete revolution but that neither one of the media where to tackle the population problem. And we're searching for that instead of looking for Australia.

The third one cultural point he mentioned about American news. Well I certainly have me that. But other home time we have another movement. Round. Two of. That core that is a kind of anti American movement supported by extreme left but other whole. I know there is a great deal of American influence on Japanese way of life. We're all thinking but if we take a kind of long range viewpoint I can say this that the Japan if we look back to history we all had many cultures find things to China to Korea many other countries we pour them we took them. But other times

you give up on time. We had a kind of new kind of combine and with. So very much concerned about. But. If you give us a little more time we can. Something different. The type of coach of which you are very much afraid of me. Thank you from my I now from much closer to home we have some comments from Professor Dobbs and. I was one of those Western nerds who had the good fortune to study in China for seven years. And then interrupt his studies with a distinguished career during the war in the service of his country was at one time an advisor to the Indian government and returned then to Oxford to

study more about. The Chinese people in the Chinese language. And he is the author of a grammar entitled late archaic Chinese which really means the Chinese that is used in writing today. He is head of the department of studies at the University of Toronto. And from this background. Must have many important things to give to us this week. Mr. Dobson. Comment Mr. Chairman must be one of admiration for my two colleagues Mr. Chadron and. I wish I could speak as that equips in Japanese are in Hindustani as they spoken to us on this great tonight. The.

A revolution in Asia there most certainly is however disparate it's many parts may be. And a revolution in our awareness and thinking about it is as my colleagues of the Synod of the utmost importance. This is revolution on a grand scale. So great Indeed us to put Asia into the central point of focus in world affairs not to be aware of this is unreal but to be aware of its implications however is not easy. Fifty years ago Mr. Choudhry talked with the evening would have been completely unimaginable at that time. Asia and Africa are like great sleeping giant They seemingly at least dormant. Then the critical issues were pure Europe and those of the manipulations of the Empire powers. But today these giants are awake and stretching their arms and legs and the focus has shifted now from Europe to Asia. The ambitious

young diplomat today cut his teeth in the embassies of New Delhi of Tokyo. And perhaps of Peking and not as he would have done 50 years ago in the Chancellor is of Paris or Vienna or Madrid. The sudden shift however does leave the ordinary men and women in the street somewhat bitter. As Mr Chaudry was speaking crossed my mind that the implications of all this come more acutely into focus if we bear in mind that we have to revelation through revolutions to consider the fastest this political revolution in Asia in which vast nations a newly emerging to political power. And the second is the less discussed but equally vital revolution in which we ourselves are taking part. The scientific and technological revolution which has placed us the nations of the West in the unpleasant role of Asia's rich but unloved on coal.

We too are in the fires of revolution but it's not a political one. It's not actuated by political life. It is technology call and it's the child of sobs. But it is revolutionary. It's one of the major revolutions of world history. For the first time we have a society in which the greater proportion not just a tiny ruling minority enjoy fanatic but almost a luxury a standard of living. This is what has happened to us in the West. It's so noble an experience but with our traditional morality we almost feel guilty about it. We are so trying desperately to live with the problems of our own condition. We are not as cruel propaganda would paint a rich grasping venal smug. We are uncertain and baffled by many of the implications of our own new wealth. For example. Professor Galbraith of Harvard has recently reminded us that our revolution has gone far past our economic thinking.

The premises of conventional economics and those of the poor and of the inevitability of poverty that we must teach how to think how to new the economics of being rich. The idea of being rich being a problem so strike some of us will slightly farcical. We've been prophesied long. It must be a ludicrous situation. But in fact to us it is merely a novel producing steel we now realise is not too great a problem but living with the consequences of having more than enough is. Technology makes us in every possible sense of the wild move fast and we have a physical mental and social problems of adjustment to this acceleration to make. In the last decade or so technology has radically and irrevocably altered the way of life of each and every one of our people. This is our revolution. It is a dynamic and exciting as a revolution in the political sphere in Asia. We are as exhilarated and as baffled by our revolution as Asians by the way.

Not the least of our problems however is to spread throughout the world. The know how of our egalitarian prosperity. Mr. Choudary has spoken of the excitement of political freedom now enjoyed in Asia but he also reminded us of the growing realisation. That the revolution hasn't spent itself with the acquiring of political freedom. It must go further. Communist China is pointing our way out of what Mr. Choudry so well called perpetual economic stagnation. But this is the road we understand. For it is the road that we too have traveled. Most Chinese successes to date have been in the economic sphere through the exploitation of science and technology. China has tried to tread this path in the company of forces hostile to the west. She invites the rest of Asia to follow. Yet we have more experience of this road and more to offer to a show than China has. If we would but make the effort I think we are more likely to make with effort if we are better informed. We need

action today to know more. To understand better. And to ally ourselves in sympathetic understanding with all the peoples of Asia. The aspirations of their revolution are for the most part after all those we ourselves share the benefits of our own revolution therefore we should all the more they willing to make available to them. Thanks Professor Dobbs. And you remind me of the comment of Harry Golden's in the Carolina Israelite. Quoting his mother he said. Too many rich is good for us or you can't do it with white wall tires. Well I think the three of you have given us a picture of the situation and the problems in Asia and we have a little bit of time that you might

talk among yourselves I'd just like to. Pose one question that perhaps you would all comment on. How. The revolution is going apace in Asia. To my observation. Japan achieved a good bit of this revolution some time ago and it did it under an Imperial regime which. I was certainly not democratic. China is far out ahead of the other countries of Asia in achieving this revolution. At the present time. And it is doing it under a totalitarian regime. Do you think that they rigors of this kind of regime are necessary to the achievement of this kind of revolution. Or can it be done in a more democratic way and a way that of course would be much more to our liking. I think I'd like to start with you. Hello. We have been started

in political date so-called to scratch and we haven't a clue about that either. Well it's all in the mud on a time when the authorization is not realistic. The way I think it is in the framework of democracy. So I feel the competition between Let China and Japan in this feel is very important. Extraordinary how well I feel that we are actually witnessing some sort of a competition between. At least it will become a fashion to quality competition between India parliamentary democracy and the People's Republic of China which opportunity and cause. Now I think it's become a fashion repartee competition and I

think that it is because I don't think there are really any competition. Each one is trying to find out the best method. I don't happen to approve of some of the methods on the mainland of China but any time I think I know enough about history of that particular country to know that some of these are inevitable. I mean when you consider what happened before the commies forces took over certain parts of China. It was almost inevitable that would happen there. We spend half a minute on this we sent out when I was in you know we sent out a mission. That part of China which of its companies took over after a few months our mission been working and reported we got from that particular people they were Americans and Canadians were working there and then mentioned very clear there was a popular movement again because regime because they were just simply left in the lurch. The soldiers aren't aware that you know and it was almost inevitable that people object and they are trying to find

out the way I think. The battle of IDF have been giant about the methods of the economy. The program is a particular thing that is suited to a particular country and I think it will go on that way. Would you like to make comment. Professor Dobbs This is a very very interesting question. I've been reading lately a number of reports from communist China from very able and competent observers and a great many things I find about modern technological achievements have been at home I think there are old hat in Japan for a year. I mean the Japanese have gotten efficient communications system they're trained to run these sort of things but visitors to China find so startling. And this seems to suggest that at least three things have nothing to do with politics what or from you Mr. Chairman as a good Canadian to imagine this is a political

question when we in Canada have produced this kind of standard of living. We have exploited our natural resources we do understand technology and that's why we're having the kind of living we have today. It has nothing to do with politics. Well that's a good point but I won't argue. I just wonder now are any of you have any further question he'd like to give each other or. No it's not a question but I want to go a sentiment which was expressed by Mr Howard that given time Japan will find her so she does. We all share that view. I think you know. In fairness to the audience we see what we have coming from out there or over yonder are back over here. I'd like to ask Mr. Choudhry a question. He mentioned I believe

use the word neutrality I think he said that India was neutral and I suppose that means that she has no strong allies. What is the reaction in India in view of this to a possible threat from China or Russia. To begin with I didn't use the word neutrality I said in Iraq not allied to any country in the Cold War. The official explanation has always been that our alliance presupposes a state of war. And that India is not taking part in such a war because the war of that kind of negative. Now the threat from communist China. Has been officially and repeatedly denied in India. After the events of the bed there is a possibility that family thinking is done in the is being done in New Delhi. However after about three or four

months of the rebellion in Tibet situation seems to be almost as before accepting that India is beginning to realize. The growing competition and the political basis between communism and how our way our government and we can find out what happened Kyra there. The government of India did have to intervene and take over the government of a state because things were not going well there at all under the communist government which was incidentally elected legally elected by popular ballot. Another question back here. Mr. Choudhry. The revolution you describe in Asia as I understand what you said strikes me as a revolution in the sense

that Asia is becoming westernized. The type of thing you describe in the various countries strike me as this is the way these various countries are trying to become more western trying to emulate Western society. My question is in the long haul are these countries trying to develop into imitations if you like of Western European or North American countries or are they going to develop a new type of society that is security of their own. No I don't think they only need to think consciously. The point here is that the world has become very small and technological and social ideas travel very far. So naturally there is bound to be some sort of. Given some sort of emission of ideas between different countries. I don't think the Asians are trying to produce either an imitation of the western societies or a completely new

society. What is happening is they know that the standard of living in the Western countries is very high and naturally human they want to try and find some sort of higher standard of living. It's a very natural human feeling. Now if you can have a home with a bathroom and kitchen would just gladly enjoy that is anyone in Montreal or Toronto. And this is what is happening. These ordinary things which you take for granted here in Canada are in the United States. Now if by wanting this cities of life one can call it a mediation. Well that is one of interpreting it but I don't think there is any conscious imitation of one or more accused of imitation and perhaps any other nation. I want to hear if our WOULD LIKE comment on that question. Well.

In the in the world I think the whole of the progress of the revolutionary all it will be is not what they were they are still the inductance. If we make camera we cannot make it so different from any type. So if you convert that knowledge if you will be the same after all. It is not the imitation but. Let me in a few old spirit of creation that it is purely a matter of imitation that in the fairy tale something for to make a film for what both of you I think are saying is that science is science. The world around and technology and comfort are the same the world around through.

Imitation that's because we are often much alike fundamentally disagree and come to the camp director my friends and a great deal. Copping a feel right but I would I would call it imaginative borrowing from Japan and the United States at the moment. After all a great deal of the architecture was a come from Toronto are aware of is directly of Japanese inspiration and this is quite contemporary. If you go down the contemporary playbills on Manhattan you went to Japan doing all the borrowing right. What considerations are Asian countries given to birth control as a means of controlling populations. What any particular person to

Japan. We don't have a Chinese representative point guard. Well we have to make it illegal for them. Control to allow the abortion. But in the law itself it also. The idea of. A local control is also promulgated. So at the current moment we all order the airplane the higher peak of the growth and the growth of population declining now and what I have already mentioned Japan. We are aiming at the pollution of the population problem to more highly

industrialized nation. Of the country or into the other country. Char you want to comment on this too. Well I just want to say I suppose related to India India is the only country where there is an artificial program for a bad country. And last year I met Margaret Sanger in her eye and she was on her way to your conference threaten to contravene international conference in India. But there is one thing to write a law and a quite a different thing to enforce it or to Iraqi. Anybody with a brain in the villages and I was talking to my niece who her happens to be a nurse in Calcutta. She didn't care where sent by the government to different villages to talk to the ladies about the relevant issue. God can do anything about it. Unfortunately that sort of thing does exist and it will take a very long time education to convince them that it is necessary.

And from a very long time project but the law has a lady right over here. I wonder if mystery here a big question. The wreckage which is the basis of a new East-West culture. Just a fundamental change that you feel the Japanese people are capable of incorporating in a new culture. Mr. Gelb insisted that we are almost going to lose. Well the reason I am here. I have been in the United States but where do you take me. Quite Americanized or damn young. I don't know. They're my home made and I'm not going to do that not that I think I'm going to believe

that in a modest way but the people who are of the kind to be a milking spot so Ethan with and I think he's pretty well through that. You bet I'm not quite to confident about but well you know on top of the way and fuel which will and the triangle has to be the melting full of two cultures. We take one from the back of your neck for Mr Chairman Mr Chaudhry have spoken of the dramatic suddenness with which the revolution has broken through centuries of misery and despair. I wonder if you would enlarge on the factors that have made possible this particular revolution at this particular juncture in human history. Do you see the very large question or to take a really long time to answer when the time is rather limited here. But I think the only way I can. Put it

in a nutshell is that the changes were in the offing as I mentioned and it's not bad not a lot of people think what it did galvanize the whole thing World Second World War and by that time because one of the greatest things that happened for Asian countries. Will be the first couple of years of sweeping victory by Japan country after country with your occupied or former colonies of Great Britain and France under Japanese military power and the people began to realize the country this white race where they're not so invincible and all that. And one of the more to blow the writing or the thinking of the British battleships in one afternoon. No this is a very serious matter because this is actually you know some of the factors which began to seep into the minds of the people and this is one of the factors and the social context. We do need to do a lot of students to be students I've

been traveling to Germany to all of a Europe in America and they were getting ideas and this was the juncture these are actually the critical moment when you could put down I did enjoy a petition and I think the second world war brought back the mission of the IDF so manipulative you had all founded expression at the same time. Without quarrelling with your comment it seems to me that what Professor Dobson said a while ago had some bearing here too that the technological and scientific possibilities were available to be used by this revolution when it was let loose by the forces that you mentioned. I we have a questioner over here who is anxious to get that far. Does the panel consider that Syngman Rhee and Chiang Kai shek I desirable models for the future leaders of Asia. An hour later the question now what you think about it.

And that's open to the whole panel. This the I'm sorry if I have to give just while the word dance will be no but qualifying that I have to admit that the particular history of if a country produces a leader that sometimes the country deserves and I think in case of China history is fairly clear what happened how you came to power. In the case of Syngman Rhee of course has been a one law school. And he had he had no one here at least 40 years ago and he has pursued it with agreeing to diminish and single mindedness about it. These are some of the qualities our leaders made. But after that when that is say there are actions within the last five or 10 years I don't think would endear themselves but you can indicate

as I read recently that we actually. Rang his former political operation and who stood against him in election I don't think you know the patterns which future leaders of Asia should follow. And now we must leave this for a session of the twenty ninth annual conference on the theme changing tonight at this conference organized jointly by the Canadian Institute on public affairs and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. We have heard about the revolution in Asia. The speakers were near mile Chowdhry United Nations diplomatic correspondent for the Singapore Straits Times whether she be head of Sabah editor of The Japan Times in Tokyo William dubs and head of the department of East studies at the University of Toronto. The German was William Jenkins minister of the First Unitarian Church in Rochester New York and a member of the Institute executive. To morrow

evening at 8 o'clock and Cillian a distinguished Chinese novelist and doctor now living in Singapore will speak about the social changes in Asia. So listen and listen with us again then. Tonight's program was produced by Christina McDougal technical operations by John skill and. This is Bob Wilson saying goodnight from the conference. This is CBC Radio the Trans-Canada network.