Voices of Europe; Paolo Sylos Labini and Veniero Marsan

Voices of Europe Milton Mayer author and lecturer broadcaster and Professor of Social Research at the University of Frankfurt has been traveling throughout many of the countries of Western Europe recording the voices of ordinary people on a wide variety of subjects. These are voices of Europeans who are alive and sensitive to the tragedy and dilemma of the conditions that surround them. People who can speak directly and candidly of their own feelings and their own aspirations. But these are not all the voices. Just a few a sample of those views you would not read in your newspapers or even hear on your radio unless you listen to voices of Europe. The economic situation in Italy today Milton Mayer interviews Professor Paulo seedless Labine of the economics department of the University of Rome a 32 year old social scientist who has made a special study of the underdeveloped areas of Italy of Europe and the world. Mr. Mayor Professor C laws.

Would you call it all a an under developed area. Well you see there are really two Italy's one north Anita League is a developed country than south and need to leap back ward one. The south in question as we call it has been started and debated at least since the time of the unification of Italy but only now we are gradually realising that it is not a special problem. It is common to many other areas of the world. There is that we call underdeveloped. The main point to realize is that there are basic similarities in the economic pictures of these errors. Now what this picture is is difficult to see because these countries are underdeveloped. Also statistically. Insofar as I am able to see the basic things to be noticed. Are first that production is either staged or even falling. And second the population is

increasing. These countries are mainly agriculture and agriculture production is mostly stationary. Sometimes even decreasing middle mineral productions are decreasing. As for instance in Spain with copper and iron ore. In contrast population is rising. The reason I'm of this increase of population is that. The fall of in the death rate due to the spread of medical knowledge. You know this increase of population is a phenomenon taking place since several decades but in the last decade the increase in population has been even greater because the fall of the death rate has been very pronounced. Professor C last Let me see if I understand you correctly

that in these underdeveloped areas the picture is almost everywhere the same in Greece in Spain and Portugal the same as it is substantially in southern Italy. And the facts are that agricultural production I take it they are mostly agricultural country. Yes the agricultural production is either remaining the same or is falling and not mineral production is actually falling and at the same time. The population is increasing because of the fall of the death rate the reduction of the death rate. Exactly. I have made an inquiry or into the situation of South Anita Lee and that of Spain. I have got also figures about Portugal and Greece and the basic features are always the same. That this the population is

increasing whereas the production is stationary and even the Kishi the freezing. This means that the per capita income for the standard of living is the creasing. In other words the outlook of these countries is very gloomy. They are not merely stationary but they are tick declining. In that I have also got figures which indicate that the inequality of distribution of incomes is increasing and not even stationary. This picture raises not only the most serious economic problems but also has got also political and economic implications and social implications in that there is a wider and wider gap between the rich and the poor and this is also a factor in the increasing political tension which is appearing in these errors something needly is a case in point.

But as a see it before the fissures are the same. Also in Spain in Portugal Inglese and even in countries so far so different as far as the historical and the social conditions are concerned. In not a sound on America or Central America or even the Far East we're now taking Southern Italy as a. If I understand you correctly Professor Cee-Lo was a typical example of an underdeveloped area of the world. I'd like to go into some detail on. The case of southern Italy. What kind of economy would you say that southern Italy hair has. Well it is very difficult to answer it. We must realize that it is not an economy of the kind of the American economy is not cannot be called a capitalistic economy.

What is it then. Well the answer is A C it is very difficult. Probably it will be necessary to coin another name for it. Well I would call it a disintegrating society or a society which has got important feudal ran months and which is still disintegrating. But this is simply a label and does not make justice to the different in. Problems which are connected with this I mean it is necessary to realize that the science how to need Kalyan economy is not cannot be called that a free under prize economy because what is lacking is precisely free enterprise. We have a stationary world. We have a word in agriculture a word which is dominated by routine methods primitive methods and where initiative and new investments are lacking.

Under these circumstances Professor CMOS. What is well and in human terms what is the existence of a human being like in the underdeveloped area which is southern Italy. While. Here again the picture is very complicated because we have different situations. Even in south the need to lead there are poorer areas and areas which are in a better condition and the social structure is also very complex. Broadly speaking we can talk of three classes. The first is that of the stock receive or at least of the Denman of that all feel that it is stock RC. The second is the middle class and the third are the peasants. I used the word peasants knowing that in America that this word applies only for a very poor

farmers without land or with a very low standard of living. Professor Siegel asked. The person I take it from your statement that agriculture is the basic activity in all of these underdeveloped areas. What in a word does the peasant of southern Italy look like what is his condition. Well his conditions are very bad. The standard of living exists to me. I'm believe the believe that I had to Spore and very often they are on the verge of starvation. Moreover they're their tools are very primitive and their methods are very very poor. The picture is activated by the fact that the organization and the

life of these peasants is only only such as to create a very low efficiency. What do you mean by that. While I mean not only that the methods and tools are primitive but also the conditions of life for instance mean peasants in the south and mentally leave in villages which are far away from the fields where the peasants have to work. Therefore the video off and the peasants have to walk for two or even three hours to go to the field where they have to call to be needed to cultivate the land. This is a factor which strongly decreases the efficiency. There are a struggle and all sorts of reasons historical reasons are these that in the medieval times there were villages on

hewas protected by cast offs. And social reasons are that the only religious presence can get those few commodities of life that they couldn't get in a farm or in a building on the field. But this means that the peasants have to spend a considerable fraction of the working time simply in walking. They don't have. A means of communication. They don't own bicycles. And as I understand in America there are workers who can there were who work only for 6 hours per day. Now it often happens that the Soudan Italian peasant has to spend six hours only to go to work. Professor Ciro's is Landry formally Hansard. We hear a great deal about it everybody seems to be at

least the political by word of not just the Communists but also all the free countries. Well and certainly in a country or an init area like that. Any political movement must take land reform in its program a political movement without land reform issue probably will not be able to exist at all and certainly from the human standpoint and also from the political standpoint it is an important issue. And it is a. Just a political issue or is it a really basic economic issue. Well taking it it's have economically land reform is not very important. We cannot hope to solve the problem problems of Souter need to lead simply with land reform. Land reform to be meaningful it must be super mentored by years of the different measures.

I will see by the whole economic policy which can see that the problem of Southern Italy as a whole and which tries to bracket the downward trend that we have had up to now and create a new trend. That is an increasing trend. Thank you very timely. Professor sailors for being me. Also in Rome Milton Mayer interviewed Senora vignette on March sun a young economist and Catholic who works in the research department of a government financial institution. So in your march son who served in the Italian army in the Second World War was captured by the Russians in 1943 and spent three years as one of their prisoners. Since his release he has worked in Rome. Here is Mr. Mayer Sr. my son. What is the condition of the attack and economy today. Well if one looks back to 1945

I think no one could deny that in seven or more years. Time the Italian economy has achieved very much in all of the sectors. We have surpassed our pre-war activity levels and we are today perhaps at the highest level of income in our history. Industrial production in particular it has today reached a level of thirty six percent above pre-war. The Greek culture is lagging behind which is not surprising but is a form of self. Now by now above the 1938 leper and rehabilitation has by now we

may say come to an end. It has been successfully achieved. It sounds senior Marsan as if the Italian economy is in good condition. Will this would be quick to conclude the rash conclusion. I would say because of course some very serious problems remain. I could try to list them and I would put them first. The most important that our standard of living which is still unsatisfied. Second the problem of unemployment. Third. Depressed conditions of the south of it. And fourth to. The still present problem of our dollar get the dollar.

Care is the one aspect of our economic situation which is common to most European countries as you know certainly. It is the problem of our economy not being able to balance its exchanges with the United States of selling to the United States much less than it needs to buy from it. And the solution to this has to be worked out outside the framework of an aid problem of the Marshall Plan type of course. And we see this as a long long way around the problem which will need imagination and effort on both sides. We would like I would like to say in this connection that

the point 4 program holds out to our greatest hope and our best hopes for a solution also to our daughter get to know her son. What exactly is the attack in standard of living. How high or low is it. Where I should have to quote some figures at this point. The United Nations have recently started the problem of income levels in many countries and the result of the list sagaciously was that the income per head in Italy in 1949. Was somewhere around two hundred and forty dollars a year. This is something like one third.

Of the English income and probably one seventh of the United States income to hate. Such a low income of course reflects itself in the standard of living and in the field of nutrition clothing and in all of the Italian indices are generally low among the lowest I must say of Western Europe. What are the earnings of an Italian worker. We'll end it and then average earnings would be fifty dollars a month. A skilled worker would do more of course he would reach almost 60 70 dollars a month. These are industrial or

industrial workers and farm workers but for farm workers it's more difficult to give a figure because the system of. Remuneration is different. Most Italian farmers are either sharecroppers or trained for the land so that we can take as an instance had laborers which are paid daily on the basis of five from five hundred to a thousand lire a day to day laborers on the final hours of farms and five hundred lire will be 80 cents a day. That's in the south of Adelaide. Yes it's higher than normal and a thousand will perhaps twice as much in the north you know dollar 60 a day. But then I would add that hand laborers

don't work. More than an average of hundred days a year. How much. Employment is their unemployment is as I said before one of the big problems. It is terrible lies as far as a registered under employed goes on a level of 2 million. People. Out of how many potential workers. Around 20 million around 20. Now what is characteristic is that the two million level has been that has had very small fluctuations extremely small fluctuations through the years through the post-war period. It was 2 million at the peak of inflation and it is 2 million now when the economy is static which means that it has nothing to

do with business conditions. It is just a touch of problem of of that and of the disequilibrium yet economist does 2 million or 10 percent of your workers who are unemployed represent all of the unemployment it represents only the registered unemployed. But economist have started the problem of disguised unemployment. And it has been estimated various sources give the figure of two other two million which would add up to 14 million economically unemployed in Italy. The disguised unemployment is mostly in agriculture. It is represented by surplus labor on the farms and thereby it is mostly in the south.

But many many industrial firms also have surplus workers on their payroll but who could not be dismissed or not dismissed. And the land of the non productive agricultural workers why how why are they lying and why are they still run away with. They simply don't find a job in the towns. Now what is interesting is that for instance in the five years from 47 to 51 which are the most recent statistics we we have our population of working age population increase by a million and a quarter. More or less 1 million and a court. Bro be hard for me to get every grade in the meantime So we have a balance of seven hundred and fifty thousand people

who have obviously had to find a job in it. Unemployment did not increase in this period as I said it has remained steady dies down to 2 million ever which means that actually 750000 people have found a job in Italy in five years. At the same time many of these are disguised as a ploy it slowly and try to find a job and go and register and labor exchange offices and so on. So there is a big turnover in the unemployed Moss It's that two million in which many find a job and many who were disguised register and become part of the UN and official unemployed figure how much of a surplus is there are on the land on the farms and Italy compared with other

European countries. This has been investigated also. And the official figure was that through the Italian foreign population had one quarter of its numbers surplus if one referred to the average population of Europe. Of course Europe has a very varied picture in this field and for instance if we refer to a country like France which is not very dissimilar from a two in whom it would be then that half of the Italian foreign population would be considered economically surplus areas. Let's see if I understand this in your Marson the French agricultural economy produces

proportionately as much as the Italian with half because a number of farm work is that we could take half of the Italian farm population from the countryside and put it in other jobs and the farm production would remain the same. Our senior son. How depressed is the south of Italy as you put it south of Italy is still mainly an agricultural region. Which contrasts with the North which is instead the industrially advanced by the south of it today. I do not mean a small section of the country like it is the case in the United State. The south of Italy includes all of the territory south of Rome including little islands of Sicily and Saladin yet

37 percent of the Italian population lives in the south and the if we consider it in terms of income we can say that the average income per head in the south is heart of what it is in the north the south has a mass of disguised unemployed people as I said and no need to three at all. The North has increased its employment all over the last years whereas the South has shown an increase in unemployment. The South has had their population increase which is much higher than in the north. Italy is known in general as an overpopulated country. We have one of the highest population densities in Europe at the same time

as a long run problem. We we must remember that our birth rate is falling. Our death rate is already very low which means it cannot afford further Very much so that our population in 30 years say it will stab to allies will remain stable at certain levels. So that the problem is not without any possible solution. Even in the field of overpopulation there specially in the last years of the government has. It has done a big effort in organizing a program of investments. It is clear that in the south the problem is of developing the basic services which will allow a development of industry.

We need roads schools and we need schools and we need electric power stations and so on in the south and the south has not got the natural resources which would allow for any development in Primary Industries. So what we need is a development of industry. At the same time in development of industry in the conditions of a country poor of resources as Italy means that imports of raw materials are not necessarily at imports of foodstuffs Ohm's which means that our industry must be able to export goods to pay for such imports. We need an industry able to sell its products at international prices. It is the most difficult problem of any developing country that I I think.

Thank you very much Senior Marcel. You have just heard the Third Programme in the series of voices of Europe in the next programme of the series Milton Mayer interviews Dr GJ band who can go dark. United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in Geneva Switzerland. On the left over people of Europe. The program you have just heard is made possible under a grant from the fund for adult education an independent organization established by the Ford Foundation. These programs are prepared and distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This program was introduced by Norman McKee and this is the end E.B. tape network.