Georgetown forum; Atlantic community

The Atlantic community student impact the topic for the eleven hundred thousand sixty six consecutive broadcast of the Georgetown University radio forum. Another in a series of educational and informative programs from Washington D.C. The Georgetown forum was founded in 1946. This is Wallace Manning speaking to you by transcription from the Raymond Rice studio on the campus of Georgetown University historic Jesuit seat of learning in the nation's capital. Today's discussion will be. They plan to community student impact participating our Mr. Donald Penn's era a senior in the Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service and seminar chairman for the conference on the Atlantic community. Mr. step deal or Master of the Law University of Vienna and the president of the Austrian National Union of Students. Mr. Luke Rowan a graduate student in political science University able to obtain Belgium and Dr Paul S. L. O. Assistant Professor of Government at Georgetown

University. For the third time in the last five years some 80 students from all over the world were invited to Georgetown for a five day conference to discuss the present and future state of the Atlantic community. Its primary purpose was to catalyze thought and to voice student opinion on the problems of the Atlantic community in the hope that an exchange of ideas among students would result in a greater mutual understanding of each nation's culture objectives and vital issue as the students were assisted by a distinguished faculty members. But that role was one merely want to guidance contact an acronym for the conference on the Atlantic community was a student originated and managed by students for students. Today's Georgetown forum is composed of one of the faculty advisors one of the student hosts and two students from other lands. We ask them to give us a report on the problems which were discussed and to comment on some of the conclusions which were

reached. Doctor I know you were an advisor when you leave the conversation but I think it well US I've been particularly struck during the last few days and in talking with the students here at Georgetown about this problem of unrest student unrest we hear so much about both in the United States and in Europe. And as somebody who is a professor and teaches international relations I'm particularly interested in the extent to which. Our European friends feel like the sun roast has its origins in the inability or at least the feeling of inability on the part of the students to influence the foreign policy of their countries today. And I'd like maybe have missed the call and comment on that. Thank you very much. There are of course many aspects to the student movement and student to rest in the world and I would like first of all to stress the point that the student movement is tremendously valued gaited for

right not monolithic but multiple and police centric in time location in ideas they stood for they stand for and they will stand for. That means that of course if you have student unrest in Madrid or student in Rome or in Belgium or in Germany. The reasons for the student unrest might be very very right then it might go from for instance in France up to some point of very bad material conditions of working very bad libraries very bad. Classrooms to what you suggested to the fact that we don't have any impact on foreign policy. I do agree completely in the start. I think that foreign policy is an area which traditionally has been in the hands of an elite which traditionally through history two centuries have even been in the hands of Kings seem very democratic societies and very democratic countries. So there is this feeling that students cannot influence foreign policy in particularly and I would like to stress this as a student of a small country of a small

power which is Belgium I would like to stress that particularly in our country which is correct arrived by smallness and powerlessness. This is there is a great feeling of frustration towards what's going on in the world of course the world this is a bipolar world that might become somewhat more police centric right now but it is a bipolar world in which only the United States and the Soviet Union might play the game of power and up to a certain point to students generally feel that their they don't share in this power and particularly in Tamar powers and small countries as ours and they would certainly like to play the game of power because they are powerless they are frustrated. And show they they they they become very idealistic and make demonstrations that are not always very relevant then so in Holland or in Denmark you might if it is very great movements against the Atlanta community and so also in Holland you have traditional schools of international law and and in this kind of idealistic behavior I think it comes from from frustration and from

powerlessness but I would like to have some comments from ministry. Would you agree with Mr. Cohen's assessment of the source of this unrest. Thank you sir. I would like to start off by the statement that although we students in Austria and young academicians consider ourselves to be the elite of the country. But in our understanding it would be undemocratic to derive from this elitist feeling that the students have something to say. They are more intelligent and therefore they have the power to change something they should. Come together with all the other groups within the society. And this for me holds also true when you discuss matters of your internal and external policy. In a country you have to come to a compromise. It's not the students who can govern and it's not the workers who can govern. You have to compromise with them. And I think

we've been very successful in our country in achieving such compromises. Therefore we didn't have any student unrest in our country and there is no major leftist student movement perhaps due to the fact that the public authorities the government have always been very responsive to what the students told them. May I just use an example in the case of the Czechoslovak in crisis. We've thought that the neutralised attitude of our country was not quick at it should be the obligation of our country to help the Czech people for example to have broadcast news in the Czech language so. We handed such a petition over to the government and in this respect we've been very successful. The second day on the Austrian radio you had the news for the Czechs and all other services granted to them.

Thank you. Let me ask you Mr. friends Mr. Krone made a very I think relevant point when he talked about living in a world or as a member of a country which now must function a world where it really doesn't count for a power political standpoint now. As a student in the United States as somebody who lives in a country which at least as far as the caller suggested your country does count or does have a capacity to influence international affairs is a student unrest he had different as it is of the frustration not of powerlessness but maybe of a power being too powerful. Well I think there are differences that go both ways both agreeing with what you said and agreeing with what Mr crawlin has said. First of all I think the frustration is great in the United States as it is in Belgium but I think one of the reasons for that great frustration is that the United States has power but students are not quite sure what their power is so that the power is there but how do you get your finger on it. How do you get control of their power or at least some

kind of influence over American foreign policy in domestic policy. And one thing Mr. Curwen mentioned was the frustration but I think the frustration Springs in some measure from an increased self-awareness that students do have more power than Certainly they thought they had years ago. And I'd like to try to mention I think a common thread that has shown itself in student unrest throughout the world and that is the use of tactics and the tactics have been accelerated more in France and in the United States especially this year than it than hitherto. But the tactics I think began to be important in this country in the 50s with the sit ins and the. The bus strike in the civil rights movement and that demonstrated that students did have a role to play and could have a very definite influence now in this case it was domestic policy rather than foreign policy. But we have the

example of the McCarthy movement last year which did have a very definite influence on American foreign policy and I think the Czech example is something a little bit different also and that the Czech student response was different from say the Paris students response. They were more controlled and their example I think was more effective but I'd like to focus on that common thread I mentioned before and that is the use of tactics. I think it started out with the King movement in the south peaceful protest and as the frustration has grown. I think the tactics have become much more extreme and we're witnessing throughout the world in various countries various stages of development along the tactics of frustration and the greater the frustration the more extreme the tactics. And I think the tactics are the thing we could focus on to

see the impact that those tactics have had because the goals are different everywhere but the tactics have shown similarity. This from the raises we talk about tactics you're obviously talking about or in part at least the capabilities of the capacities of a particular country to influence its own destiny and to regulate the destiny of other countries. And what I'm sometimes concerned about when we talk about young people and their impact on foreign policy is whether they do have a role I mean I think we very frequently assume that because they want a role they therefore do have one. And then it becomes a problem of how to get them into this role. I'm not so sure they really do have a role. And I'm wondering if you people feel they do and if so what is the role was to be a living from. See as I said before. Sure they do have it all. Perhaps that all is larger because of their intellectual

training. They have a higher degree of insight into the various problems be they internal politics or external politics. But it shouldn't be so as as I see the students in those countries where there is unrest. Think that their arguments are correct and they have to push their ideas through. And I would like that this happens that the students can and that the students try to push their ideas and I think this is the reason why there is frustration of the students in those countries because they want to get something and society does not respond to the rest of pens or suggested the problem of tactics in important respects are also defined by the objectives that want to seeking. To what extent is this common threat this tendency to to adopt or utilize more extreme tactics less a function of the first ration and a function of the kind of change which a

young student coming along today confronted with a world which is something less than perfect is seeking to bring about. Well yes I think you know my previous explanations of course do not exhaust DD fount of all possible explanations and there are many more facets and aspects of the problem. I think one of the problems is that undoubtedly in every country I guess in every country you are more idealistic done than those of age and age is strange and indeed I think that there is an undercurrent in any in any affluent society because previously people were after material well-being and after welfare now they've got it and now they are not happy with it. And yet the creation of independence of the United States says that all men are created equal and that they are not that they are entitled indeed to life liberty in the putative aptness for theirs it means happiness while they are not happy any more and they say well

we believe that their liberty and freedom first of all is not indivisible and they they they they will also stress that no man is an island entire only of itself. We are all part of the main and therefore when it went when democracy for example doesn't in the Atlanta community which was quite relevant to what we discussed now. And because of the preamble saying well we are protecting by these Atlantic pact we are protecting democracy or protecting our liberty by protecting the rule of law. When we have countries in in the Atlantic alliance that don't implement those principles such as Greece or or a particular centrally Well students in general feel that this is unfair and that they should do something about it. Now again when they see hunger in India when they see the diocese's and war in Nigeria and so on and and exportation in Latin America students feel that they are responsible for it. Now they feel they are responsible that. But there's of course no way in

particular not in a in a small country to or to have any influence or palm upon the partner structure because first of all a small party has no power and secondly even within a small power you can demonstrate you can see Dean you can participate in teachings but after all you cannot influence the government I think the the point you brought up about the Vietnam affair and the. I did the latest event in United States and the McCarthy movement and so on are very interesting. But this can only be of any impact in a very crisis situation when the very survival of a nation or when the security of a nation is really challenged. And I think this For example I don't believe that the American student movement could have any impact on for example let's say a politics of the United States in Latin America and could trigger a dramatic change or radically change policies of the United States who are clearly America I don't believe it neither the watch Neto where strategic important strategic and and other things play a role of much more than that and you could I think you couldn't have any impact on

these policies would you agree on that. To what extent maybe we're talking about two different things. You're talking about your capacity to influence your country's behavior. On the one hand then perhaps your country's capacity to influence the behavior of other countries on the other. Or to what extent is it useful. Do you think it would let me ask you Mr. Burns or Edward said is it useful to make a distinction between this is a point to try to suggest or alluded to in the beginning between student unrest in the United States its origins and manifestations in student unrest in Europe or the rest of the world and its origins are extinct in you when you make that distinction. Well I think the first thing you have to look at is what affect student activities have and the behavior of the country. And before you begin to talk about the effects of their country's behavior and other countries and I think we should concentrate

on this one because once you get into the affective one country and another we're not really talking about the student movement anymore at least not in very direct terms it's very indirect and very nebulous I think a number of points of Mr. Cohen raised that I'd like to comment and but first I want to make one reply to your question and to what extent our tactics shaped by goals I think originally this may have been true maybe 15 years ago the tactics were shaped by goals but it's. Increasingly less so on I think goals more and more are being shaped by tactics goals I think have been defined in very negative terms in terms of what the student is against rather than what the student is for. And because there is agreement that certain things are bad therefore the attempt is made to change what is bad but there isn't really a general agreement on how that should be changed. And so the tactics have been used because they replied to what the student is against but they don't really do much to help

change it in a positive direction I think that's one of the major problems of the student movement. But to reply to Mr. Cohen's comments before Very briefly I think we should draw the distinction between student movement. Per se as the student movement influencing policy indirectly from without from outside the system rather than students influencing policy from within the system I think there's a great difference there. And my suggestion and the McCarthy movement was based on the fact that students went inside the system and this particular instance because they had a great cause that they believed in but they work within the system. I think they have to a large extent given up on that or at least the more radical elements certainly moved away from that. But when they did work within the system to try to change it from within they did have a very

strong effect because the McCarthy movement lasted maybe six months and that was it. And if they could be organized over a long period of time I think the effects would be extremely great. Because while students are becoming aware that they do have power which they weren't aware of before but I think that power is being the gated by the sense of frustration and the impatience to change things now. I want it now and I'm not going to wait two years to get it. And this impatience is reflected again in the tactics that have been used. Let me ask you this is raises a question in my mind at least. Obviously societies are very different and they are very different in the role they allocate to youth in there is a willingness to listen to you in the institutions that are available for you to express itself. To what extent has Have you or societies either missed the bill or was the growth to what extent have your societies changed in the last 10 or 15 years in terms of the opportunities for expression of

dissent by young people. To what extent I really asking Has your society how your societies become more responsive to the feelings of students was to be it. I would not say that there's been a change in the society in Austria. We arose from a different position we have in our street our barriers political student groups with their separate ideologies. And this would be the same with the parties. So every political student group would correspond to a certain political party. Therefore if a certain political student group wants to get something through they will work within the system through their parties. Therefore I see that in this system student can do something and they can achieve something. And perhaps me I add to your last

comment. I think it's a problem here in the country and I discussed this also Wolf. Some politicians here that the PI deuce are not Oriente did along an ideology. Therefore people would not hear so much to do a certain thing they will not so strongly work for it. They will not be organized. Let me ask you to follow up the point where you can that not be an advantage over and to the extent that conflict on issues maybe becomes less intense because it is not ideological in character. There is a certain school of political thought at least which which is inclined to argue that a certain amount of dis interest in a society is a very healthy thing in that it keeps a conflict level within tolerable limits. I do not have an answer to the question but there are three possibilities.

Either you have just one ideology in the communist states you have various ideologies fighting against each other or you have none as it appears to me which is the case in this country. Your group must grow. Oh yes I would agree but I would also make a couple of other comments are certain. First of all we should always make the distinction between this country and our country because of our lack of impact upon the world political structure. But within our country I don't think that their side to change very much. But what change certainly is that the more and more students from more more and more from poorer classes come to the university and other more and more students are advocating it. Do you up occasion of the democratic principle within the university and there is there are gains to be made and we are making gains and we are sharing decision making within the university on the curricula on the organization of the university maybe even on research and so forth and so on so I think there has been a real

impact of the student movement. But you do say you do think there is but in fact would you regard one more point. We should also make is the tremendous frustration of the regular European student in the European affair I think that we are frustrated because Europe did not follow the advice to unite Europe is not ascendant. And by and large we started to rise out of the ashes of defeat in 1914 late 1940s beginning 1950s but not in the 1960s now that we are affluent now that the threat from the Soviet Union disappeared up to certain point and now that the American Channing's comes in I think we have lost momentum and there is a tremendous frustration about this. But again I don't see it very much are how students can can affect these changes and going to affect changes in foreign policy. All the Democratic parties in Belgium in Italy in Germany and in most of our European countries are indeed I would seen favor of a

united Europe. How doesn't it get doesn't come about because governments are not willing to get together and to work it out I mean they're positioning goalie's France for example. Certainly as as made us to lose momentum and this is a tremendous point for Europe I mean let me let me in the closing moments at least ask. It was the pens or perhaps we've talked about students now student impact now somebody who has to live in a world that you people are likely to be running in the not too distant future I'm curious about student impact in the years ahead you think it's going to be. More obvious more important more or less responsible how you want to define responsibility. This is an extremely hypothetical question and a difficult I think one of the problems is reflected in the fact that our students are becoming older and older and so-called student leaders and frequently aren't students anymore. They are still associated with student movements but they're no longer strictly defined as

students. I think one point I wanted to make before I get to your question was the Mr. Billy's comment. And India logical parties and I think one factor we are facing right now and I think this is very important for the future is that we have a conflict in value systems I think the students today have in a large measure rejected the value systems of traditional American society. I think this Europe this phenomenon hit Europe much before it hit the United States and we're just getting it now so for us it's a rather new thing. But we have a rejection of the present value system and I think the students are fumbling around now looking for some kind of value system that they can latch onto and call our own rather than just pure rejection. And this is a very slow process a long term goal for the student movement and I think as time goes to the effect to the extent that the student movement today can modify the value systems

in the United States and in Europe it will have a very strong impact on the overall foreign relations in the future. But while there's a question of how successful the change will be yes you do it do you think from Europe you have the same sort of prognosis or are you more or less optimistic than Mr. Burns or seems to be. I think. From the society in Austria I would say the students will have more influence in the future when they show the rest of their society that people can identify with their goals and when they can tell the people that this is correct when they work along rational ideas. And I think if students do so in the future their impact will be greater.

Thank you very much gentlemen. And I hope that this conference has helped to clarify some of the questions you might have asked students about your role as a Saudi It certainly helped me at least understand better why students feel the way they do. Thank you very much Dr. yellow for your discussion the Atlantic community. Student impact our thanks to Mr. Donald and Sarah a senior in the Georgetown University School of Foreign Service and the seminar chairman for the conference on the Atlantic community. Mr. Sepp Baylor master of the Law University of Vienna president of the Austrian National Union of Students. Mr. Luke Rowan a graduate student in political science at the university able to vain Belgium. And to Dr. Paul Allo assistant professor of government that Georgetown University here in Washington. You have attended the weekly discussion program

the Georgetown University radio forum broadcast of which was transcribed in the Raymond Rice studio on the campus of historic Yorktown University. Next week you will hear discussed kidneys lives and dollars. Our panel at that time will consist of Dr. George E. Shriner president of the National Kidney Foundation and professor of medicine Georgetown University School of Medicine and to kidney disease patients who must receive artificial kidney machine treatments in order to remain alive. We welcome your comments and suggestions. Please address them to the station to which you are listening. This program has been presented in the interest of public education by Georgetown University at Washington D.C.. Your moderator. WALLACE Fanning. This program was distributed by the national educational radio network.