Tender twigs; An eye for an eye

His education informs the common mind. Just as the twig is bent the tree's inclined to write with this series the tender twigs proposes to bring together those best able to address themselves to the individual and social problems of youth in the twentieth century. It proposes to discuss a few of the most clearly recognized problems of our time mental health delinquency crime social pressures and human growth and the practical steps the parent school community and church may take in order to ensure youth development that is safe sane and straight. The tender twigs is produced and recorded by W. K..

Our radio at Michigan State University under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters. The tender to wake these are our youth. The task to help them grow safe sane and straight. The title of this program and eye for an eye this program features a single guest. Each week we present a distinguished person who we feel has left a mark on our time by his thought and by his work. As it relates to our youth our guest Dr. Gareth Hines for 15 years associated with public education for 20 years associated with the Michigan Department of Corrections where he was director of that department for seven years and warden of the Michigan reformatory Ionia for 10 years. In September of 1957 he was appointed director of institutions for

the state of Washington. His present position brings to full turn Dr. Heinz many interests and accomplishments in his new position he has charge of all institutions mental penal and juvenile by the state of Washington. Our interviewer for the series is Ben Thompson Research sociologist with the Michigan Department of Corrections. Dr. Hines My We start this program by taking a look at a quotation from one of our recent periodicals. It reads juvenile delinquency can be curbed if we will cease coddling the offender. His name should be brought to the attention of the public through press radio and television. He should be taught once and for all that his activities are not acceptable. Well I've seen that remark obviously and I don't agree with it. I don't agree on a number of counts. I think the people who make that kind of

statement think that there is one simple solution to all of our problems. Only afterward that people know committed a crime sufficiently disgrace him and then the whole thing will be done. That just simply doesn't make sense. It's. Wrong because it assumes that all people are alike. That everybody will feel disgraced if his name is mentioned in connection with a crime that isn't true may be true for some boys and sometimes but is not true as a rule. We have received in our institutions numbers of boys who were rather proud of the fact that a name for a mansion. They even had clippings. Same thing a dry plies do adults many of them are quite elated because they've attracted a grade of attention I can adore see why the publication of names would act as a deterrent in any case if the disgrace was a boy.

If you are very much disgraced and you haven't helped the business the rehabilitation of Tong because he has to have a feeling of some inner worth that you've got to work on if he's going to do anything for himself. So you remove that and if he's the kind of boy of lorries and well you've just built up his ego and that isn't good either so I don't see where that kind of approach benefits anybody. Matter of fact that kind of thing has been tried and found wanting. Why go back to the same error we've had before. What do you feel happens to a man once he's received this publicity and whatever size community may come from and he comes to an institution of one kind or another. What effect does that have on his treatment there or the the institution's ability to treat him. And what effect might it have at some later period once he is paroled or if he's never sent to an institution if he's placed on probation. I wonder what is necessary in the rehabilitation of any lab is acceptance on the outside. And I'm very much afraid that if everybody

knows that he's committed a crime everybody's a community he's going to find people will remember who will be on for giving him his job working as they way back him to the good graces of society is going to be a whole lot more difficult. Good doesn't help at all. If a boy enters into society those are diverse and certainly publicity of his crime is going to make his going any easier. Could we talk about this business of self worth a minute since you mentioned a moment ago. I wondered if perhaps in the treatment process of an individual and trying to help him wherever he may be he may never have been committed he may still be just the guy next door. You work with this business of self worth. Is it the major axis on which any treatment program may well hinge.

What I want I'm trying to ask is that we hear so much about the delinquent and the criminal these days as being a mentally defective person. Now he may not be low on intelligence you in fact he's probably a normal range intelligent lad. However we have a tendency to judge his behavioral problem and say that he suffers from a personality disorder or whatever the particular classification might be. And then as you've seen them in the institutions. How do we handle this question of self-worth and what was his real meaning to all of us not only to the man who has made a mistake. Well we've discovered for instance that a boy ingests much more rapidly. And if we can find out what he's good at and then develop that particular thing. Now obviously the question of self-worth is involved he begins to think of himself as an individual. I recall all my

add on the Mars rover vision once upon a time wasn't it or whether I gifted or very few things he could do. But he finally got a job which is purely manual labor and it is surprisingly where I am the supervisor in charge recognize the fact that this boy had never received anything but abuse. He'd always been told you're too dumb to do this I'm too dumb to do the other thing and so he told this boy when you're one of the best men on this job and ran a very simple manual labor proposition and the boy developed marvelously he began to see that after all he had worth as an individual he could do something better than somebody else and his adjustment began from that time on his growth his spirit is spiritual growth spiritual the wide sense of the word began from that date when he was recognized as a person who had worth would do something. It's the thing we've got to build on. The boy has no regard for himself no conception

of abilities and some direction. We have much to go on. I wonder if for a moment we might focus on some of the experience that you have had directly with institutions and might ask you know some of the changes that you have seen in institutions and in the procedures carried on in institutions and what you might wish tomorrow might hold. Well I think that the the biggest change has been in the attitude to which people manage these institutions and a good section of the public and changes in their attitudes toward the individual and toward the kind of program that an institution should follow. Formally the idea was that a man should be punished and prison regimen should be made harsh. They've long since discovered that if we make the right judgment harsh we are spoiling our chances for doing a whole lot of number of things that we can't do.

And that kind of an environment we can help a person. So today we are much more concerned with the individual approach. We don't believe anymore in a mass approach we don't believe that all criminals are the same. They differ just as people on the outside differ. And if we're going to do anything for them we have to do for them something for them as individuals. Now you may say there's a direct contradiction of what I said before that we had to take care of the matters we had to take care of the conditions. It isn't because it isn't the function of a president to act as a bogeyman. It isn't our job in prisons to make people scared of prison. It isn't our job to deter crime. It's the job of the institution to see that the individual who comes to an institution and go do it again. And that means we've got to take them as individuals. You know I think the greatest change is this emphasis upon rehabilitation upon helping a man rebuild his life and change from that change that from the old

idea of punishment. Have you seen the the internal workings of the name of an institution change over the years as far as discipline or just the average day key demand must go through. When a friend just among us were disciplined first if you don't mind. I believe and I think all the mo and ministry believe in the idea of discipline but don't think of it so much as punishment for the violation of individual rules of the institution. We're not concerned with that. They are sacred. I managed to keep their rules in an institution because he should by the same token keep the grave with them all raising the road teams in free life and if they can do it him the institution obviously is going to do it on the outside. But our purpose in disciplining now is not to punish a man for violating

rule. Our purpose is by disciplining him to make him myself disciplined individual. That's the objective. Thank him under his own power of his own volition to do such things as satisfying the for the present desires in view of future needs to forego certain things to live with people to consider consider them. All of that kind of thing we try to do in a prison because it's the kind of thing you got to do outside so that's so much for discipline. Now all the routines are greatly changed. We used to years ago get a man out of the sail in the morning let him work bring him back a KNOWN for food anywhere beat him in the evening and lock him up as soon as we could. A safe way to run a prison the easiest way to run a prison. As far as taking care of the inmates or consign them all locked up in your safe for the night. Generally speaking

today we don't do that. We tried to make a remake and the institution as much as we can only in conformity with life on the outside. All sorts of activities and meet in the in the effort to meet the needs of the individual. Tonight Today I am most penal institutions where there's a progressive program there's a great deal of night activity. But it isn't haphazard. The whole thing is planned. When a man comes to an institution today a great effort is made to find out all about him. We don't have a number of reports from the courts and whatever it maybe we know considerable about him. We're experts people who know how to question will question him get his story and then a program we've worked on for him a program that's subject to revision in case it doesn't work out well. But my manager program doesn't a program that he necessarily works out although he's come speech concerned he's consulted but it's worked out by the authorities by the

inmates all with the objective of helping him to rebuild his life to learn how to conform or to get along with people getting a similar sense of values. But it's program it isn't haphazard the way it used to be. Man she already went to prison before and came on better men. But it certainly wasn't because of any contribution the institution made today. Men leave prison and become better men and the institution has been a factor in this business of rebuilding their lives. Planning comes in much more than before consideration of the individual freedom or emphasis upon rehabilitation. I wonder if we couldn't make a parallel story for the parent and the home situation in which any child from early infancy needs to grow up in terms of values and in terms of the routine in terms of taking responsibilities and terms of recognizing the rights of others. Probably if these kinds of things which you program for the institution had been carried

out earlier in the business of living we night might never have them in any institution. Would you agree with this. I firmly agree with that here. If there had been wise training the kind of situations in the homes that would make for good citizenship were obtainable in all cases I don't think we'd have too many in most cases you can trace the history of the boy back to a bad home situation. It might be pointed out that what we would call a good home situation isn't a matter of wealth. It isn't a matter of having all the creature comforts. It's a matter of having these ingredients that we talk about so long from love and recognition and a sense of belonging. Discussion in the family. Living together having means together being a community. The people who have continued that sort of thing in their culture of closely knit family have very little delinquency course what we forget storm here is that

we preach to our children things we don't practice ourselves we tell children they mustn't lie and the mother will say too little Mary of the telephone rings if there's a Mrs. Jones daughter I'm not home. Well she can't talk to that little girl I've been by again about telling a lie. If her father just to a boy here's fifty cents but don't tell your mother and the boy you know is of the father and mother aren't quite seeing I die in the matter of a straining. I think parents have got to be very careful of what they say and do in their own relationships because they do have definite bearing upon the acceptance that the child is going to give to the moral and religious precepts that they hold out for. I think parents too should watch out that they don't try to create create or recreate children in their own images. So many times and when they were kids thought they'd like our would like to be certain things musicians or whatever it may be and were thwarted. And so they make up their mind that little Johnny

is going to be a musician no matter what comes. And Johnny doesn't want to be one. They should learn soon what the interests and the desires of the child are and they recognize it. And when he does something so much sense of appreciation for it's a long story talking about what parents can do but I think that would be should impress upon parents or they've got to be much more thoughtful of the rearing their children and be much more willing to forego certain things themselves in order to help out their children. I think I think too that in a sense it's a long story but in a sense it's the only story that is really worth telling. From the standpoint of a correction ist in many in many respects because you've seen so many come through when you've read so many records and you've looked at so many psychiatric reports and the reports of psychologists and you've talk with your own classification committees when you were in the institution so many times

I'm sure and all of this probably has grown within you a recognition that this is a tremendous need and and frankly if you don't mind I'd like to talk about this a little bit more in terms of this family in terms of the mother and father because I hope that this series is getting at just that kind of thing. This is the kind of thing that we want to be talking about throughout this series of programs. How can we. Can we say something directly about mom and dad. We've read a great deal. There are many many many books these days about the influence of mother and the influence of father in terms of dealing with a young man. As you've done for many years what kind of observations would you make. Well to generalize I would say that one of the things that is characteristic of almost all the young men whom I've met any institution is the total lack of satisfactory

dealings satisfactory relationships with with the right kind of adult. Boys and girls will admire they've got to admire somebody they've got to have a hero. They've got to have someone they can worship and. If they don't have things don't go to well or if the kind of person they are going to worship is not going to influence obviously in the boy life or the boy or girl is going to be spoiled. That is why I think the parent should live close to their children in the case of a boy. It's particularly incumbent upon the farmer had to be close to his boy. Because they the borrowing is going to want to hear oh he's going to one he's going to want to make a deal. But he needs life himself being one so the father plays I think a predominant

role after probably the few years first few years in the life of the child. I know there are fathers who are cognizant of that. They want to do a good job when they become overly protective. I have seen boys in institutions whose fathers were just that and the consequence was they hinder the development of the character of the boy. If a father for example is so afraid of bad associations for his boy that he will not let the boy play with anybody but himself. He wants to be in every ball game he wants to be and every fishing trip whatever gives the boy no chance at all to pick the right kind of companions to use a little judgement. Then when the boy is older and is on his own he doesn't know how to proceed. Or the father who always wants to be sure that his boy knows how to spend the money so all monies are spent in the presence of the father doesn't give the boy any chance to

develop judgment. You go down the line. These overprotective people these people who think they love their children grow much into a great deal of damage. There's got to be judgment due in respect to this. There are parents who are think they are so loving and that they won't stand for any kind of discipline for the boy or girl no matter what the kid does. They are to give me any kind of disciplining. Now I think that when it comes down to it those people on really loving the child so much they're loving themselves more because to discipline them you child is little disagreeable particularly if you love the child. And we've got to do something don't correct them probably punish them. Hurts hurts you and you don't want to get hurt so you say well let it go let it go. And you're doing immense damage to the to the boy not because your commands have been disobeyed. That's not so important. But you've missed chances of making yourself a disciplined individual. Oh this boy

has a good deal of thought. Got to be put into this thing. On the other hand some parents I think are altogether too apprehensive. A boy shows Oh does something that's wrong and immediately the conclusion is that he's a potential delinquent maybe he steals something out of the purse and consequently is going to be dubbed as a as a person who is just a thief got too much larceny in the system. That isn't true I presume a good number of adults have stolen when they were young and they really haven't been turned out so bad. Sometimes curiosity as to sex is regarded by parents is on those boys going to be used when white curiosity say yes to sex is and unnatural. We worry too much about something. And then I think another thing that parenthood line is this. If they have a problem with regard to their children the answer to which they don't know they should go to experts who can tell them.

Weirdo people we've learned gradually that if Johnny is sick we should take him to the doctor there is no disgrace as far as the family is concerned and flowing from the fact that Johnny is sick. When he comes to comes to mental problems we don't do anything about them because consulting a psychiatrist is a reflection upon the family. Well that's plain silly because a psychiatrist particularly when the boy is young or a clinical psychologist or a counselor can often do a great deal to help. And we shouldn't hesitate the least little bit. Going to people who can help. I think that parents should back any effort at all in their own school systems to make possible the detection of the deviations are really people we should have in all of our school systems people don't know the difference between a boy who is just too full of wind waker and wideout army and gets into trouble and the maladjusted boy we should learn that already we should have people to find out what kind of who these folks are and then see to

it that they are brought to the attention of those who know something about it. That's no great problem. We can take care of a number of those things if we know them early enough. I wonder we hear a great deal on these days about games. In your experience with penal institutions what effect has the gang had or is it as real as we are sometimes led to believe it is as an influencer for the bad of human beings. Well of course the game part that gangs have played in this development of delinquency or this increase in delinquency varies with various towns but children are very garish they like to associate with people they associate with the ones they like and if the leadership in the gang happens to be bad here like I have a lot of trouble I don't think is anything wrong with children running in gangs.

What is wrong is sometimes the mores that come into this and gang membership you've seen children like to be recognized. And if they can be recognized for their exploits for good they're going to get to see that they are recognized for some of the things that are banned from being natural. This is probably not only true of children. Oh no I don't share the same thing but we have to be talking about children. I suppose the adults are nothing but children grown up. It reminds me of one and every warden once told me as if the only trouble with these boys we have now is that they're all on like we were when we were young. So in a way I think it's true of young people of older people as well. May I ask one final question. How about the philosophy generally of a nine for nine. Well I don't agree with it but let's say this that that I for my philosophy isn't necessarily characteristic of penal institutions alone or the law Rome

burns going to adopt the attitude of an eye for an eye to. They can punish for violation arose in a way that had no particular significance. It's just punishing because the rule has been. Violated. Let's remember that there has been a great deal of experience back of the rejection of the eye for an eye doctor. They've tried it once you know and tried it intensely and it didn't make for law abiding citizens it won't in the home. It won't be in the institutions it won't anyway. Our guest has been Dr. Gareth Hines director of institutions Well the state of Washington. Next week The Greater Generation. Our guest will be Dr. Ernest Legan professor of psychology Union College Schenectady New York director of the character research project. You have been listening to the tender twigs a series devoted to ensuring youth development that is safe sane and straight.

We invite you to join us next week at this time by the 10 to 20. Our interviewer was Ben Thompson. Research sociologist by the state of Michigan's Department of Corrections. The tender twigs was produced and recorded by Wayne C. Wayne or w o k our radio at Michigan State University under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center. And is being distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters.

This is the end E.B. Radio Network. A.