NER Washington forum; UFOs and flying saucers

Having examined a very large body of data over more than a decade now I can't feels there is present among the thousands of UFO reports that have accumulated to date. A hard core of cases that can best be explained by one hope office is that of extraterrestrial vehicles under intelligent control. The voice you just heard is that of a man who believes if that is the right word in flying saucers or unidentified flying objects. His name is Stuart Nixon and he is an employee of an organization in Washington known as night cap. The national investigations committee on aerial phenomena. Mr Nixon is our guest on any art Washington forum a weekly program concerned with significant issues in the news m national educational radio public affairs director of Vic Sussman. Also with us on this program is Mr. John Lennon producer for the eastern educational radio network. Mr. Leno has had extensive experience as a Washington newsman and will participate in this discussion. Let's make this an informal sort of discussion because the subject is one that should not

be treated I think in this case as something academic. Do you believe in flying saucers Mr. Nixon. Well that weird beliefs are a problem because anybody makes it sound like a fairy tale I know and implies that I have an opinion but I can't support it with any more than perhaps intuition or emotion. It's really a matter of looking at evidence and trying to come up with a judgment that seems best to fit that evidence. And having looked at an enormous amount of evidence now kept feels that you can start to make judgments they have to be tentative judgments Yes because when I prove anything but evidence yes and apostasies tentative judgments Yes very much very much so. Well what is your judgment. Well I have to look at all all the different kinds of things that come in. And we did out a great many reports that are ambiguous or incomplete or questionable for various reasons. You end up with cases that have great substance to them and these are the cases that stick with the hard core cases that simply resist explanation. And that

what that is what constitutes the end and that's what constitutes the phenomena that we're interested in. John you know could you explain a little bit about your organization and its national investigations committee on aerial phenomena. So presumably you have set yourself up as a group to investigate reports of aerial phenomena or flying saucer reports or whatever. What is it that a group actually does. Well we're primarily a Data Processing group. We're not scientists in the sense that we sit down and can give very technical examinations to things. We simply try to collect the information collect the data and put it into the kind of form that makes it most useful for scientists to look at. And then we go out and try to interest scientists people we feel are genuinely qualified to look at this material into coming in and working with us. This is the only way we're going to get at the you know the problem get at the solution to what we have you have any luck getting scientists to come in and analyze the data that you've collected. Yes it's an uphill

fight because this is a subject that's been stigmatized over the years. It's something silly something sensational something to have a talk about. Perhaps I would joke about but not to really deal with in a serious fashion. And so we are we have had an uphill battle but now as things are beginning to change and this is really the exciting part of it all today because yes there are scientists high caliber people top level people and they're coming into to us voluntarily we don't have to you know to try to persuade them to go away. And they're discovering what we have found over the years you know that there are cases which simply resist explanation. Any scientists can look at the case and they still resist explanation. So this is what we can we've got to deal with. Where does the money come from for something like my cap. Where do your funds come from. Well it's people private individuals all over the country all over the world in fact there are no grants no special gifts from anybody just contributions from the average individual who feels that there's a work to be done. How large a staff professional staff full time people

10 people everything else done force is voluntary including this analysis by the scientific people. These people it's their own you know motivated on them so on their own to work with us. There's no no money. Have you personally ever seen anything in the sky along the lines of unidentified flying objects. Nothing at all. I personally and Matter fact don't you feel slighted. Well not really i obviously. I'm curious I'd like to you know see something yes but most most of us at the organization have not. There's only one individual who has had a sighting and even that is a sighting of second rate quality. Well give us an example now of a first rate sighting something that you can tell us about that is going to stun us. I mean I have an open mind. Mr Lennon has a closed mind. I think we've discussed this before the program and John I think I'm so unfair in saying that you. You're not

convinced that there's something up there. Well I don't. Somebody is going to have to show me not a little green man. But something more substantial than the. Testimony by a man and a woman who say they have ridden in a flying saucer before I'm going to believe as you do that there is or there are little green men or whatever out there. So it's not just election to say that they are but little green men would leave that with you that's going to Xtreme we're going to have to talk about people rotting in flying saucers to have a phenomenon for which science has the expertise to deal with and we will give us an example as best you can on radio. There's a real very good case that occurred in May of 1066 over Philadelphia and also this will give an idea of what we're talking about when we say hard core case here you have a beautiful day right over one of the major cities of the United States. The two witnesses involved are a pilot and his passenger. Both of whom

are adults. The pollen in particular as a man we feel is highly credible credible because of his training. This man has been a military pilot. He has been a commercial pilot and he's been a private pilot. He has in the neighborhood of 20000 hours of air experience. Now this is as I say over Philadelphia. He's in the passenger are flying over a naval Grove Air Station. And they look down and for jets take off for conventional naval Jets Navy jets take off and come up to their altitude and are flying right in front of them over the city. At this time completely unexpectedly out from the left comes a flying saucer just what you and I would consider a flying saucer a disc with I don't. And it takes a position between the Jets and the aircraft of the witnesses and it maintains maneuvers right there maintaining altitude. I just know we're talking about hundreds of feet away from these from the witnesses and stayed right there then all of a sudden it begins to move toward the aircraft where the

witnesses are coming right toward him and the last minute veers off and passes them on their right now. To give you an idea of just how close and how clear this object was we asked the man we said to the pilot what was it like when that thing came right past you. He says it was just like watching an automobile drive past me. You might have like to use the word Cadillac he said just like watching a big Cadillac come right past. He said it was that close and that clear and he could describe that thing just as he would describe a Cadillac. If you were on the ground instead of in here. So there you have a case. Again a number of interesting factors. Broad daylight beautiful day visibility on Lebanon. This is all been scores checked out by us. You have it not something tiny and way away in the sky somewhere but something in a matter of hundreds of feet away and the individual involved has an enormous amount of experience at watching things in the air. And of course in addition you have the second witness the woman who is sitting right next to him is not a fact she saw it long and he did because it passed on her side and she could turn her head and watch it longer

than he could. So we had the individual testimony there. They say they were Navy jets in the air at the time. Navy jets going in the opposite direction of course. So UFO was to their rear and the Jets were not aware of what was happening or if they were. We have no knowledge of it because of course military finding out about military activities is difficult. But what do you do with the how does this how did the sighting come to this man contact you. Did you contact him. No this was the man after the sighting of them Another woman said anything about it to any public source papers radio station what had they simply confided in a few friends. And since we have some investigators in Philadelphia who are aerospace engineers as a matter of fact why the new simply eventually trickle down to them and they privately approach these people and ask them if they work with us and they finally agree to it. But virtually no effort here to seek publicity of any kind. So this was over Philadelphia over a naval air station is that correct. Correct. Presumably the Navy had its radar on the

does show up on the radar. So this is an old problem. Everybody reason's this way and this is simply not true. You say well gee that was a radar base there then they must have picked the thing up. Our Radar is a very special instrument and something could be very very close to it and it would never pick it up simply because it's designed to do certain jobs. And it may be doing a job and that job may have no relation to the portion of the sky or the altitude or what have you where the UFO was. In this case we don't know because as I indicated earlier we've had problems getting to the proper people at the Air Station but will the Navy talk to you a little Or do they deny you the information just on that they will not be intimation on the grounds that radar information is classified. Now there is one there's some other possibilities we're checking along the lines you're talking about but I can't obviously I don't have solid information pass along now. How about the Air Force have you had any cooperation from them it seems to me that groups such as yours in the past have had a tremendous amount of trouble in dealing

with the Air Force and their various scientific groups around the country trying to get information or give information or compare data and facts and the sort of thing with the Air Force. Have they loosened up at all in recent years. Not really. Yes to a certain extent but not really their problem is that they do not want to be involved in UFO at all. It's a monkey on their back and they're the first to admit it. They would have gotten out of this business years ago if the if the higher echelon had left them as it is now they're simply stuck with it and they simply can no longer hide their displeasure. So it's it for them the whole thing sits in a negative context and you can imagine the effect on whatever scientific integrity may have existed at one time there within the Air Force. There's just no scientific effort being exerted. I understand that the Air Force has set up some sort of laboratory to investigate UFO ZX in conjunction with civilian efforts. In line with this these investigations at the University of Colorado is that there's an interest in

Colorado received a grant in November October of 66 very small grant $300000 to take a look at the UFO problem. Now the motive for this grant is not clear and the results are not clear. But knockout feels that we can expect very much of this. It's an extremely limited project. Interestingly enough most of the material that Colorado worked with has been working with over the many months has been knockout material. We briefed them at the outset and we supplied them things right along month after month. They got far more from us than they got from the Air Force. How long is nigh kept in existence. Eleven years. 1056 was found. Now tell us what a what an average day or perhaps of an average day is like at my camp. Is your phone ringing off the wall with a little old ladies calling up from suburban Virginia saying that something has landed in their meadow or is it quiet or how does it work. What has it go.

Well it is that it's up and down. Typically no. The phone doesn't ring off the hook. Typically most reports come in through letters and there are reports of such diversity it's impossible to generalize about them anything that anyone thinks is strange. Sooner or later gets reported to us. It may have nothing whatsoever to do with you have photos but it still gets reported so we get just about everything. Now in cases where there are a lot of sightings occurring what we would want to talk about as a wave or a flap. Y-yes then you get a very intense level of activity but normally No it's just a matter of collecting information and it and processing and this is almost 90 percent paper work right out of out of any given 10 cases that that may come in in a given week. How many of these turn out to have any sort of substance on the average well out of 10 we have to talk about nine being worthless out of 100 90 percent maybe 95 percent. It's a very high percentage that you just no substance there it's this residue you see this hard core

that you end up really orient yourself towards. Well one percent doesn't seem very substantial. I mean out of. Out of 10 or out of 100 you know 110 doesn't. Doesn't really seem very substantial because in any given set of circumstances you're always going to find one. One happenstance that perhaps it isn't explainable at the present time. I would almost want to say something more substantial than just wanted to end the problem here is you're asking something of the UFO before you got to be prepared to accept the UFO as reality and that's not fair you have no idea what the phenomenon may be what it's like. Well you can talk about is where are there credible observations and where are there not. We simply can't you know have preconceptions say well if the sightings conform to pattern X or pattern Y then we'll talk about being X an acceptable phenomenon. You just can't do that.

All right it occurs to me that John mentioned the Air Force and it occurs to me that for many years the Air Force has had or whether they still haven't I don't know perhaps you can tell me something called Project Blue Book where they they have looked at the UFO So I think Project Blue Book and I'm some results some years ago where they said that there was a residue. Inexplicable phenomena but that they discounted this. Is this what happened. Yes blue books still exist. It is the only government project that our government has ever had. And it began in the late 40s when the UFO first became a matter of public awareness and it's continuing to the present day. It is extremely limited. And by that I mean it has it's about four people and then in Washington or around in Ohio you know it's one office one physical built one physical office with four people one of which is oh just a girl who's a clerk. So and this supposedly is the way the United States government has been investigating a phenomenon that occurs all over the world 24 hours a day. So you see what we talk about when we feel there's very little scientific integrity present. Right

now their position is totally negative. And this goes back to what I was saying about them want to get out of the business. The reason they're proud of the project has such a low priority is because they don't feel there's a military problem here. And so why should the military be involved what we agree a hundred percent this isn't a military problem this is a scientific problem. It belongs in the hands of the scientific community. Perhaps Nasser for example or the county of Sciences. But there's no threat to our security here. You said that these 10 investigators who work or not have permanently. Well you said that there were 10 investigators who are on the stand 10 professional staff of those six are executive people meaning people whose job it is to work with the reports. Where do these people work if they were all work in this country. We all work here in Washington. They're all here in Washington. Yes and we our investigations are done by volunteers who are formally organized all over the country. And these people have to have a scientific or technical background. I was they have to be screened by us and there has to be a written contract

worked up. So these people are we feel very very qualified to go out into the field with cameras and Geiger counters and whatever the case may require to interview people and try to collect evidence. Is it hard to get volunteers for this sort of thing. Not not really because our interest is slowly building to a serious level. There was a time when it was yes another. Another way to put that might be is there is it hard to get. Qualified volunteers for this sort of thing. In other words people with scientific backgrounds people who are not prone to hallucinations are seeing things that aren't there anyway. Well to that very limited point the hallucination No it's not difficult at all because if you know anything about illusion and you know how rare they are and how difficult it is to you know establish that this is this has happened so know that there's no chance reasonable chance at all that the people we have working for us

are have psychological problems or predispositions. But to the other point the broader point. Yes because it's difficult to get just what we want. Now the problem being I stand as we feel high and we're terribly conservative and we have to be so careful because we're trying to get away from all the silliness you see all we want to do is get out and get data. Make an objective as possible. Now there are limits on our resources that limit but this is what is going to take you know to get at the heart of the problem. What happens when you when you come across something like the instance you told us about it in Philadelphia. You come across something that as you say hard core that that isn't going to be laughed off. What do you do with it. Well now this this is introduces an interesting problem because a lot of people say Well so what. So you know you've got testimony so what. Well there's nothing unique about the UFO. There are lots of phenomena present in man's environment for which the basic evidence the primary evidence is simply testimony there were decades when for

example meteorite showers were known to scientist only through testimony from peasants. People are farmers out in the field. And as a matter of fact meteorite shells were rejected as a phenomenon simply for this reason. And what it presents now they say stones are falling out of the sky what do they know. Well finally the showers became so intense that the scientists themselves could go out and experience them and then of course the president's words suddenly took on a high degree of credibility. So this is what we have here we simply have testimony from people not just something present in the atmosphere and it's a matter now for the scientists to go out and try to secure objective data using these techniques using instrumentation just like you do with it with the meteorite shows or some other phenomena which is difficult to find and difficult to study a little bit earlier I said something about people riding around and flying saucers and I mean earthlings and not these. Well I will use a little green man but whatever they are they gave a free

ride to. Some people here in the United States this is a very common problem we have are these people nuts or did they really experience this or want. Well not perhaps position on this is quite firm. We don't know of any case that we consider reliable where this is occurred. We reject virtually every claim to what we call contact meaning communication with an extraterrestrial being. I ride in a flying saucer a visit to a saucer telepathic messages any kind of contact between an Earthling and an extraterrestrial. We reject one simply because we've investigated every case that has come to the fore of this nature and without exception they all fall apart. They're completely incredible and unreasonable and the people involved are all highly questionable individuals. People who are by and large nobodies. You never hear of them if they don't make fantastic claims and promote these claims they're never willing to sit down with a scientist and

give evidence of their claims. They always say if you don't believe in that stuff. But I did it and I'm going to go around giving lectures and selling books and going through the whole bit. So not kept is very firm on this. We just don't buy this kind of thing and we consider it to be highly Dr. menal to the whole business. I seem to remember some time ago Stuart that I went with you as you recall my wife and I went with you and another staff member and an astronomer on a trip to a suburb of Washington and there we waited in the chill night air for a flying saucer to land at the behest of a man who I hope will remain nameless and famous. And I remember this gentleman had a rather florid complection that I noted time with a lot of broken blood vessels in the side of his face which is usually the sign of one who imbibed rather freely. Is this the sort of character that you get often but not necessarily. He also claimed to visited this particular plant he claims to fly around and do a lot of things.

No I don't doubt that he flies around. You know. All in all this is the sort of thing that you come up against not drinking. Now I mean the man who is an alcoholic or who has other kinds of personal problems know this is simply a case most of these people are opportunists. They simply have discovered that there's a lot of fun and a lot of money in making claims because a lot of people who are unhappy and who want this kind of thing they're not content. And as you indicate with reports let's get on with you know let's go beyond reports let's see something really exciting. OK these guys come along they'll supply they'll supply it in spades you know anything you want to give it to. And there's money in it. It's fame and it's a lot easier to get on television this kind of claim that it is with the kind of thing I'm I'm trying to say. So these people opportunists they're simply you know racketeers you want to say that. But I remember a case from a few years back that I wonder if nightcap looked into it occurred in a western state where objects flew over. The highway and as they passed over I don't know if you remember this or not I was they passed over automobile

engine stopped and some of those who were affected were state state troopers and highway patrolmen and this sort of thing. This was given a lot of a lot of publicity also. I think it was 1965 I think because I was traveling through the West then and there were reports coming out of Oklahoma and Colorado and everyplace that I wasn't in fact there are reports coming out and I want about this sort of thing. The stopping of automobile engines. You know this is an aspect of the UFO phenomenon that is really fascinating. Some of the most serious people that are involved engineers for example and scientist. This is what we call the IAM effect electromagnetic fact. There are reports of so NUMA numerous that we have to talk about this as being a very serious possibility that the UFO emits some kind of field which interrupts the normal out of the electrical systems. Now some of what you are saying is they're excellent cases from 1957 November in Texas where some. Farmers are fairly illiterate people were driving on the road in the truck just stopped and they got

out. They were quite concerned and got out of the thing. The UFO a fairly sizable object came very low passed over him and completely scared them and they went to the police. As soon as they could get to the truck started and the police came out and during the whole night the policemen and other citizens experienced this problem. So this is obviously not elucidation we're not talking about you know birds fluttering around the sky we're talking about something of a very extraordinary nature. Was this ever happen on a larger scale than just one or two automobile engines stopping. You mean at one time. Multiple interference Yes but it's rare. Most of the time it's one of two cars on a highway somewhere. Is there any scientific explanation for this happening. Not really but there's an awful lot of work being done. Some people in Detroit and the automobile industry are giving some attention to this. And scientists really all over. This is a fascinating possibility because it takes a very strong magnet magnetic field to

our knowledge in a way we can't be sure to stop an electrical system. Another interesting thing is that the engines in these cases almost always start up on their own once the UFO is passed over. The engine will start back up you don't have to work the ignition. And this is this is not inconceivable within terrestrial state of the art but it's so extraordinary that there are no real explanations because this sort of thing where there is actual interference with the human process of going from one place to another such as an automobile engine stopping. Could this be the result of some military experiment either by our country or by another great well financed military power such as Soviet Russia. No there's no reasonable chance that a UFO can be explained as a terrestrial device. The reason being that if the technology existed to produce a craft that is

as sophisticated as a UFO we would not be engaging in the kind of programs when you gaging in today. These things exhibit performance characteristics which are just inexplicable in terms of any known technology on this planet. So it is silly for number one to talk about. Wasting a lot of time with chemical propulsion and risking the lives of astronauts when you could be going to the moon in a matter of minutes or hours with a UFO. Also most of these theories that you are talking about are referring to secret vehicles in other words the Russians flying secret test vehicles for the US. Well you don't fly secret test vehicles over the United States if they are made in Russia and you don't fly around over cities where people can see them you know bus automobiles in place Air Base airplanes and that's hardly the way to test a secret vehicle. But and also we've had sightings for many years and you can't talk about the United States or Russia having that technology in 1945 to do what is being seen today. It's just not reasonable. Flying saucers flying objects not even have been noted since the 870.

Yes and some very good cases that go way back. But certainly the best documented cases. Of course we have to talk with about the best we can start in the right after World War Two. We have about a minute left. I wonder if you would since since this program is heard all across the country if you tell our listeners where they could get in touch with nightcap what say if they have a sighting or if they're they're interested in getting more information about aerial phenomena. Well the thing to do is to right our main office here in Washington which is at 15 30 6 1 5 3 6 Connecticut Avenue Washington D.C.. And this this will help no matter what you have a report or a question of whatever is is desired. This is the thing to do is to write us also of course our phone numbers in the book it is available through the information operator. Thank you John in a last quick question or comment. Yes is any one particular section of this country or the entire world

experienced a greater exposure to U.S. foes than any other. You've got about 30 seconds. No no there are no patterns that we are aware of this is an international problem. It can occur. Phenomenon it can occur at any time in any place. The best witnesses tend to be people who engage in occupations that put them out doors where the UFO is a likely to be seen. That's about all you can say. Some of the best cases on record are involve policemen and pilots for example. Thank you. You've been listening to a conversation with Stuart Nixon of nightcap the national investigations committee on aerial phenomena. I'm national educational radio public affairs director Vic Sussman. We've been discussing. Unidentified Flying Objects. Also with us was John Lennon newsman and producer for the eastern educational radio network. Be with us again next week for another edition of our Washington forum a weekly program concerned with significant issues in the news. This program was produced by W am you FM American University Radio in Washington

D.C. technical direction by David Ecclestone. This is the national educational radio network.