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We're talking about a book called Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee which is written by Dee Brown published by Holt Rinehart and Winston. We'll be back with Mr. Brown in just a moment. This is book each week introducing you to leading authors and critics. This program is made possible in part by the National Book Committee and the American Booksellers Association. Your host is Robert Crumb a daily columnist for The Chicago Tribune and a contributing editor of book world the Sunday Literary Supplement of the Chicago Tribune and The Washington Post. I should mention that you are a librarian at the University Illinois in Champaign-Urbana. That's right I'm a librarian first and writer second. Well as a writer second you have a pretty good boxcar because what have you done about 12 books. Oh something like that if you don't count the ones I don't want anyone to know about. Those under an assumed name. No unfortunately not. Well you did to us and in books in collaboration Yes with Morton Schmidt We did picture books and photographs old photographs of the west
different constant reading of that volume so war. Oh yeah and we thought well it should be something of an Indian war knowers. Yeah well your Civil War buff also obviously did a lot of books on the what's what what impelled you to write this one. It just sort of grew. Originally it was going to be a book about Indians for young adults and by consultation with editors and correspondents with editors. We reached the point where we thought this would be better is a big one it is really correct me if I'm wrong it is a history of the whites even of the Indians from well up to about 1890 roughly from what 1860 1860 1890 roughly with a little summary bringing it up to 60 with a lot of excellent photographs of some of the Indian. Chiefs and other people who were mentioned in the book
but told. Well if an Indian and written that it could have been any more sympathetic to the Indians and I'm saying that as a compliment I think quite properly sympathetic to the Indians well Indians did write it I didn't really write that from their viewpoint. Indians told me what to write. The authentic part in parts and it come from official government documents and you have to be a little wary of some newspaper man's remarks. I grew up in India and said. You have to be wary also of a book that was written by a white man and interviewed. He may have put words in his mouth but in the government documents these were written down as the Indians were usually in his time and then were translated by chance later and then recorded either biased in August for which they were available. Well the amazing thing is the beauty of the speeches and they must have been legitimately
beautiful to start with so they couldn't have survived translation the way I feel about. Yeah. The real world and nature of the earth are poetic. There are natural poets. Well it certainly does present a 30 year chapter which is one of the sorry missed in the nation's history I would say. Don't you feel sorry for the nine Indians in this book for the nine Indians you feel sorry for the non Indians. Yeah you know you don't know. Well I do because I didn't realize what I was doing from that viewpoint short from the tragic viewpoint you know I drew the analogy between this book and My Lai. There certainly is an analogy there you have to be careful when you have historical persons. No I meant only to the extent that. The whites in those days I'm sure were taught as apparently some of our Giannis are being taught that people of
another race are subhuman or sub sub something. Exactly you have no feelings have no culture and the thing you do is all right. There were animals from their viewpoint they were animals but there were fortunately a few men who discovered they were a crook you know a crook you took him 30 years to find out that these are human beings. So and there was another kernel in there you may remember he said that he had talked with Spotted Tail and his daughter had died and he was astonished to find and could weep. That was when they gave the Christian burial to watch this in the cemetery and during one of the march military burial. In a way but I suppose the most poignant quote in the whole book is The One The Indian is now identified under whose picture it is I don't know if he said or not anyway but he said of all the promises that the white men made to us. They kept on the one they were
promised they would take our lands and they took our lands. That's the only promise kept. Yeah what a court that is. That's a photograph of a Red Cloud in his old age. But for the impact of that phrase it would be better. Yeah yeah. Well the Indians have a lot of class in that book with a few exceptions are much nicer people than the ones who are shooting them. Well I think that's true and it's a shocking thing it's a disturbing thing to find in the whole thirty year period we didn't realize that we were destroying people who today could us you know more than any other group of people in this country understand that the earth must survive if we are to survive. Well I protested about the whites cutting trees uselessly and slaughtering the buffalo and taking the hide and letting the restaurant. They were the original
environmentalists. They were absolutely. That comes across nicely. You couldn't kill too many too many while you couldn't plow up blow away. They constantly lectured military men on what they were doing to the land and nobody paid attention to. What with the few happy exceptions. I guess the people in the book are the ones who are running the reservations and who came out to make treaties for example from Washington with the Indians and always with the idea of stealing the land. Yes almost without exception it's true. You felt that at the time they were making these promises for another treaty. The Black Hills treaty was such that even today I think if you had had a few good lawyers they could prove that the Black Hills was Indian women and I'm sure they
could because it was given to them in perpetuity. But the treaty was well aided because two thirds of the Indians had to sign an agreement to sell the Black Hills. And the way the manipulators got around this was to say that the Indians who are not on the reservation at a certain date didn't count didn't count. Well it wasn't in the treaty. In one instance it had little boys signing and that was one of the subset that finally had kids who were underage signing treaties and things temporarily. Yeah you know eventually the whites. Yeah no doubt about that. You have a favorite Indian. Why have yourself 20 or so. Well you know he's one of my favorites but this book has very little humor in it as you may remember. But there's one story in there that I'd like to repeat and that's the one where invited to appear at the meeting of the royals of the Northern Pacific
Railroad. They want to be in there. So they got a young officer to go to and say we want you to be a special guest at the meeting of the Orioles and I'm to help prepare a speech so the young officers composed flowery speech of welcome and then they went and the young officer was sitting. But he didn't feel comfortable so to speak in the Dakota time and the young officer wouldn't translate it. So here are all these dignitaries from Washington I believe the president was there for all the railroad men and Sitting Bull got up and started speaking in Dakota extemporaneously. This very insulting phrase you could think of lights I never trust. That's right. You've stolen our land you're running this iron horse. Destroy all the wildlife. And then he would pause and all these turkeys would
applaud not knowing what he was saying and he spoke about four or five paragraphs worth and each time thunderous applause and this young officer the only one who knew what he was saying he didn't know what to do. But he finally got up and made it a little flowery speech. Quite a few other allusions and got away with it and the officials were so pleased by what they thought. They invited him to go to St. Paul and it was a beautiful story. Well he was killed wantonly wasn't he. Yes he was. I would call it in the Cessna nation which brought the wounded in battle which was the title of the book. Yeah. Which wasn't really much of a battle it was more of a massacre. It was it was a massacre. But Sitting Bull was persuaded to come back from Canada finally where he had fled with with his many of his people if he could take. The Canadians who could they were.
At least they weren't cruel to them but they just were careless they were callous and they wouldn't be indifferent. Yeah yeah they wouldn't give them anything in the winter time and they tried to get them to go below the border again. Other Indians want to be burdened with many of the Oglala had followed him up there and they kept more and more kept coming. In and they were afraid to cross the border and have an international incident. They want to get rid of the Sand Creek was probably one of the most cold blooded mass murders ever committed what I think the worst in our history. And with that with the American flag flying above it for protection. Tell us about that one. Just to remind people. Yes. The Indian leader there was black cattle with some minor G's and this was in eastern Colorado. They had been given a
reservation on land there that had no wildlife and was practically useless for agriculture for them to survive they had to go into Kansas to Buffalo and it was this was during the time of the Civil War. And the Indians didn't want to stay on this reservation. They preferred to go to Kansas but this was off limits. And in Denver we have a case of quite a few people who had come out they're minors who were subject to the new draft come along so were drafted. But to get out of being drafted and sent to fight you could volunteer. So they were really rather low type of people who were in this volunteer army. And that decision was made to get rid of these Indians they were in the way. No doubt of this. So they sent out notices that they all had to be on the reservation a certain time. Most of them
came in and they were given permission to go hunt buffalo. And they established this village on Sand Creek with men women and children yes men mostly women and children. At the time because the older men were hunting buffalo in Kansas and this group came down from Denver picked up more soldiers at the fort near there and then in the night marched over and just don't. They raced through this village mostly women and children and black kettle thought the flag would protect you because that would He says all of you come under the flag. Well most many of these soldiers are drunk. They had this idea that these were animals and people were talking about while ago. This went through there and. That was it. Now there's a movie called Soldier Blue which is based and I did a little big man.
You see that I have and I want to see that it isn't kind of it's a mixture I would find it had some beautiful things that an Indian chief must star always marvelous absolutely marvelous. Listen I wanted to. Have you read something that the marvelous thing that Chief Joseph says here. When they first say oh yes that's one of the better known speeches as well known as the other one. The earth was created by the assistance of the sun and it should be left as it was. The country was made without lines of demarcation and it is no man's business to divide it. I see the whites all over the country gaining wealth and see their desire to give us lands which are worthless. The earth and myself are of one mind. The measure of the land and the measure of our bodies are the same. Say to us if you can say it that you were sent by the creative power to talk to us. Perhaps you think the Creator sent you here to dispose of us as you see fit. If I thought you were
sent by the Creator I might be induced to think you had a right to dispose of the. Do not misunderstand but understand me fully with reference to my affection for the land. I never said the land was mine to do with as I chose the one who has the right to dispose of it is the one who has created it. I claim a right to live on my land and accord the privilege to live on yours. Beautiful this marvelous man. Yes and I know that is what he said because it was from an official document where he was sitting in a council and the words were taken down. So they took the land by some white man or it's too good. I mean it's too realistic that's real. Well it took the land away from his people. Oh yes it was one of the worst of all lands and the fact that he was never forgiven for something that he had never done. He was never forgiven forgiven for it and almost got to Canada.
That's one euro Yeah yeah. Scapes if you want to great escapes of a few of these people got across to the handful of warriors got it. Yeah. The massacre of the Custer massacre so-called which was really a battle. You don't pay too much attention to in the book I mean you mention it certainly but you don't give it a great wide treatment because it's been treated. But that was a masterful job of finding out the Indians wasn't it. It certainly was. Of course it was Custer acted foolishly gave himself away by letting go and attacking the alarm the village before he got around in his position from a military standpoint I think pointed out that he would have probably been court martialled if he survived. You know for violations of his orders and the way he handled it from a military standpoint.
Well I was amused to see that Indians are very like whites in one thing at least several of them claim to be the ones who killed. Well I think that in a way they were pulling reporters legs. A reporter would come out from New York or Chicago and want to story and he'd pay $25 for a good story to kill Custer so they'd make one up for him. Did any of the tribes have a happy life none really did have a happy ending I mean they want up on good land and well protected in the treaty was kept. I think probably the host came out better than anybody but they weren't really too well off and they still aren't but they seem to be having happy people. But were any of the land kept. What you think of even some of the more recent than this in this century. Well they're broken over and over and over I mean they would land kept dwindling and the Indians kept getting pushed into
the poorer parts of it too. The only ones who came out well were a few who were given this some of the worst lands or not at all and they will say geez I think you are one of the group. What I can't understand is why there wasn't more public outcry about this at the time. Well there were movements there but but they're like some of our movements today that people were considered a little strange that they should occupy themselves with these worthless people these useless people they don't are technical technological society why would you want to waste your time with these people. But the mass of Americans just weren't concerned and they were also swallowing a lot of these tall tales that came out in the halls that survived when I was a boy and your animal for instance. That's right. Probably it was credited
with killing more people than any other Indian and probably killed fewer than almost any other Apache. It was a it was a picture it was me. Yes you know you're on more of a crew chef sort of a peasant. Yeah well except things up to a point and then his present understanding of shrewdness comes out and he sees through the whole thing. Who is the Indian who spoke flawless English and their course. Maybe some other language besides Indian and they came out and tried to they tried to separate the chiefs and deal with them individually and he said no we must all be together. That's one of the I think so but I can't think of his name. But he really saw through the whole thing for a fraud and never fell for it all. And finally they bought him off thousand dollars a year. That's right that's right. Chief I can't recall his name right now either.
But I'll give you something like 10 or something thousand a year and he got a thousand a year for 10 years for land from which they took something like 500 million in minerals from one mountain. So over and over and go. Did you talk to any Indians who remember. Tribal memory for example I mean they couldn't member it in person but ones whose fathers or grandfathers had been mixed up in this. I've corresponded with some I feel think of ever talk with an Indian who knew an Indian who had survived and someone called me the other day and wanted me to come up to North Dakota to meet nice. I think in her 90s and he said that she could remember a lot of these things that were going on but I think I'd like to meet her. It would be a great thing to do. Where did you get your material mostly came from Gaza Smithsonian's and big documents set. Oh I see that our government is just a matter of tracking it down.
Well you know how to use a library I take it. Well if I have this time it's too late. Well you've been a librarian by the way all my life in telling you been in 20 years. Well in much of the material was available much most of it was there. The Indian women don't play a great part I guess they didn't play a great part in any of the negotiations. Didn't didn't once they brought an Indian woman in and later the Indian said that she did it merely to insult. This was in Canada when the white people in general Terry went up to try to convince the should return. So go ahead come and speak. Have had a good time trying to break this down. That's one reason why you can't find words of women they didn't sit in council. They just weren't there there were no words spoken. You can't have them speak in the book.
From the book I gather that the Indian chiefs as a general rule extremely intelligent extremely articulate and superb leaders and many of them superb soldiers. One of the things that struck me was a complexity of their thought for people who were almost at the level of cavemen and as we looked at them in our letter to the complexity of their philosophy it would be equal to one of our philosophers today. And they also somehow had a great capacity for forgiveness. They did they did. I mean no matter how many times they were cheated and attacked they were always willing to take one more chance. I guess partly because I could do anything else but also because they apparently just couldn't believe that people would act like this. That must have been the reason that they couldn't believe that anybody who lived on this earth could treat other other like other living forms on the earth.
Well they were much more humane than the whites in many cases in many cases. There must there were cases where they were pushed to the point where they went mad. It was some of the some of the lessons your animals tribe. One of them became a horrible torturing Victoria. Yeah I think he went mad he was driven mad by this constant pursuit. Well they lost they lost their wives they lost their children. The soldiers would shoot the horses burn the villages destroy the supplies and right away leaving with nothing to starve perhaps in the winter. None of the presidents really cared. I don't know how many didn't know much about I suppose the first person who really took an interest in India was Teddy Roosevelt. And I don't know that this was him but he seemed to like it and before that I can't think of any well he would have been in the early 20th century. Andrew Jackson liked certain Indians. He would have said some of my best friends are
Indians. Yeah but. Indians in generally wanted pushed across the Mississippi. Well Sheridan was and Sherman was at least I guess not violently I didn't but he was pretty indifferent to their suffering. Yes I think Sherrod and one who made the famous remark that only good Indians are dead and Sherman I think he looked upon them as a continuation. So for us to get rid of the war. One thing I liked was a description I think was Sitting Bull who was invited to talk to some new commander and he said what does he look like. And when you talk to him does he look at the ground or does you know you know that as you run around he would he was not going to surrender even if he had to fight to get away and you know he was down to only about a dozen men and been sent in to negotiate something like 50000. Soldiers and
civilians had been pursued your honor more than 20 30 people or did you know. And finally he had to give up so they went in and that was one of the questions he asked as he looked he looked down at the ground and the young lieutenant told him that I supposed to look him in the eye because he agreed to surrender. Well they were taking some of the Indian chiefs to Washington and then putting up the best hotels and trying to woo them this way and into signing them for 30 40 years give them expression was give them a lot of candy and. Tobacco and get them drunk or any figures on how many Indians were slaughtered. I know what most of in quite a few because well our population was increasing from 2 million to 14 million. There it was going from about a million to 250 to 300 thousand because those weren't all killed some were left to starve die from dissent.
I don't doubt if there would be it impossible to make it about as they would have a favorite hunting ground. They say no you can't stay there you'll have to go over into this place and your animal they move to Florida. Well it was he was a prisoner of war they would move his old tribe to us what was left of it was dead and died there because they weren't accustomed climate like this and they still rations Indian agents would get rich sometimes at the expense the end that was one of the best ways to get rich quick. In the last part of the 19th century was to beget an Indian Agency. There you were little check on you it was a political ploy that spends a certain amount of money and keep it. Thank you. We've been talking with Iran from University of Illinois about his new book very My Heart at Wounded Knee published by hold Rinehart and Winston a superb book but a very sad one I'm Bob coming from the Tribune thank you for being with us. I hope to see you again. Beautiful beautiful book. Thank you.
Book beach has been made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. This is the national educational radio network.
Series
Book Beat
Episode Number
87
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University of Maryland (College Park, Maryland)
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Book Beat is a literary radio program hosted by Chicago Tribune columnist Robert Cromie and made possible in part by the National Book Committee and the American Booksellers Association. In each episode, Cromie interviews an author about a specific book theyve written or translated. Authors discuss the books background, topics, and themes as well as their research and writing process.
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Literature
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00:27:53
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Host: Cromie, Robert, 1909-1999
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University of Maryland
Identifier: 69-36-87 (National Association of Educational Broadcasters)
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Duration: 00:28:28
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Chicago: “Book Beat; 87,” University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 28, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-500-cj87n36m.
MLA: “Book Beat; 87.” University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 28, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-500-cj87n36m>.
APA: Book Beat; 87. Boston, MA: University of Maryland, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-500-cj87n36m