Seminars in theatre; Episode 10 of 31

This is seminars in theatre a series of discussions with leading members of the theatrical profession who comment on the problems and pleasures of life in the theatre. Here now is the host of seminars and theatre Richard Pyatt. Good evening and welcome to another seminars in theatre this evening. Again in talking about the practices and the trends of theatre in this country throughout the states we've invited a group that's known as theater for the forgotten Incorporated is currently or just recently presented the advocate of Robert no up. We'll find out with The Advocate is about just a few moments as we introduce our guests John ceilings. He's a graduate of Yale and he has to his credit directed the sound of silence all Broadway in 1065. Show which won the Vernon rise Drama Desk Award and he's been the recipient of a Ford

Foundation grant to travel throughout Europe to study theater there. Beverly Rich has acted. She's an actress and co-founder of theatre for the forgotten incorporated. She's appeared in a number of off-Broadway plays and received her training at among other places the Neighborhood Playhouse on a scholarship. Our third guest is Akiva who lumbers currently acting in the advocate along with Beverly rich and he's appeared off Broadway Broadway summer stock films and he's also a co-founder of the theater for the forgotten the theater for the Forgotten is actually a cooperative theatrical project or the production that was recently presented by the theater for the garden with the staff and inmates of the New York City Correctional Institution for men on Rikers Island.

First of all how long has the theater for the forgotten been in existence I might ask Beverly Ridge. Well the Forgotten has been in existence since April when we all got killed and myself get together and decided that we wanted to perform and the performances started with two one act plays at Rikers Island Anasta sailings directed one of the one act plays that we didn't do and they were called Hello out there by William Saroyan and the second one was Lo Garrick did not die of cancer by Jason Miller. M. original play April 67. That's Westerns. You form the theater for the garden primarily because you want to perform. That's correct. Well yes we wanted to perform Every actor wants to perform and every director wants to direct.

But the possibilities exist outside we wanted to perform for people who are for a time unable to attend live theatrical performances because institutions penal institutions are not there is to do as have people who go and musicians and and singers and such who go in from time to time to entertain the inmates or the people who as I said before confined for any length of time. What we wanted to perform for these specific people people who cannot go at their own free will to a theater. So we thought that we would start performing for people in jails with the hopes of in later times to go into other institutions old age homes orphanages and whatnot. Well originally How was this idea received by the Department of Correction. I mean did you have to get permission from the commissioner McGrath. Yes we we contacted both the city commissioner of

correction Mr. McGrath and also Mr. Maginnis who is the commissioner of the state commissioner and up in Albany and the ideas were well received. What I take it for much is say that very little theatre is available in correctional institutions. What do you think is the reason for that. It's kind of difficult to say because we have had we have received a great deal of help from the Department of Correction in the city. Therefore I don't know why other cities do not have it except the fact that in New York we have this abundance of talent that is willing to give of its time because we are not paying anybody for their services. And the actors or directors and the only thing I know that it was first done at San Quentin many years ago and they have a drama program at some point and matter of fact a very interesting sidelight from that is that

a man who was in without the benefit of parole after seeing the very first production ever to be done at San Quentin became so interested in the theater that he he was released after 12 years and he is now coming to Broadway with a play. His name is Rick Lachey and he's coming in with a play what Broadway What's the name of the play. You know I read it somewhere and I've forgotten that it's a very short title but it was interesting to note that having witnessed one performance of waiting for Godot out there changed this man's life for drastically. And it is interesting I notice you say no one is paid. And you have quite a large cast and a staff. You know I mean you seem to have a publicity director production manager. I'll tell you this is I am quite thrilled by it because and of course a great deal of the credit for this belongs not only to the idea and to the need for such a

I think a program happening but also a great deal of thanks belongs to Mr. Stillings who was such a capable director and a man who found so many talented people like Mr. Seeger who designed a marvelous set. And Mr. Gil Wexler who did such a great job with a few lies that we had and so many others. And I think that if John could really tell you a few things about how he goes around finding all these great and talented people that we've been blessed with. Well I think John you few questions are in order directed to you personally I mean directly. Number one how do you get all of these people to work for you for nothing. I mean don't they have to earn a living don't they have to eat. Or just what is the situation. I think it's a combination of several things probably friendship cajolery bribery or. Intimidation and an opportunity to I guess perform in a unique set right.

Also with the three man essentially responsible for the artistic and the production aside from myself. Who are Richard C here. Time to run down the list again who did the set started the lights and the name Ryan Edwards who did the music. All of them shared with Akila Beverly and I self very strong feeling about the necessity for the kind of programming we were involved with and therefore very kindly donated their services I might add that they not only donated their creative resources but they also got in there and work and the nitty gritty by building and painting and hanging instruments really kind of remarkable adventure for us all. A few practical bread and butter questions that arouses my curiosity number one were you able to utilize any of the audience Riker's Island I mean the inmates were the number one. Would you have number two were they interested in number three was this

possible. We used about 60 and eight in the production either on the crew. That is the running through the building crews or in the cast I think there are about 20 some inmates who actually took part in performing as actors. The reason for so many people in. It is because John wrote in about 20 extra parts for by the inmates so that they would be participating as actors and I think it was rather curious for the playwright to come and see him to 25 or 20 extra people in his play to say the least because most playwrights that I know would resent it heartily and would find that it was an intimidation of their work. I mean most playwrights seem to have some kind of creative feelings paternal or maternal about their work and they were resent anyone tampering with it how did you get away with this. Well I think writing is not precisely the word.

Because the advocate is a chronicle play and therefore utilizes a company a basic company of perhaps 25 actors. It is possible through not doubling actors to bring in on almost that many more where in a commercial situation you would have one actor playing more than one part. Yes well do you. There's a theater for the forgotten. Take the players around to all of the institutions or is it just Rikers Island. Well if I may answer this in this production. It was such a huge production that it would be it wouldn't be feasible for us to travel with it simply because of the fact that we'd love to be able to travel with it if we had the money and also take the company that was associated with it at Rikers. That would necessitate getting clearance for the 40 so my people the inmate the resident company as we referred to it with us. But

to do it as such a large production would only be feasible as I said I'd Riker's Island because of the fact that we have gained the confidence of the staff and of the correction department office to go in there and do an elaborate production in other institutions that we hope to travel to will of course would have to take in a fully rehearsed cast. Of our professional actors and the production maybe two or three times however long it's necessary for us to hit the whole population of that institution. But right because I'm a boy there's this great opportunity to create a workshop within the institution. Oh is this going to be kind of permanently is on. Oh yes yes absolutely. Oh I see. How long do you intend to go on presenting plays at Rikers Island as long as not to allow us to long but anymore one becomes involved with it the more one's one feels that this is a great thing that's happening and

one really does not want to in any and any time there's associate oneself from this project. Although I know that we're all professional people and we all have a career to consider and in a given time Beverly or myself or John may go to 5000 miles away from here to do a film with a direct one. And but we are going to this is kind of the home that we come back to. This is sort of the. A repertory Well not a repertory but a resident theater in Rikers Island I mean I don't I don't well I think I mean I used in Rikers Island we basically promised in New York we like to play at Rikers Island I want to continue to be a little institution and she was like I mean you know you become only performing at one. Well last spring our we did perform at Elaine's house of detention we know how you do where you go to Westfield which is both the women's reformatory and prison and it was easier for us to do this because they want to play you can so as many will tell you we will get to the time.

Well getting on to a couple more reactions. Number one from the viewpoint of actors and director do you feel that. The inspiration to work on a play is the same where you have so to speak a captured audience and where you wouldn't have this kind of an audience I mean and generally I mean I would imagine in Britain any kind of entertainment that is fresh that from outside would be welcome wholeheartedly but does this give you a barometer to your own talent your own individual creativity your own development and growth. Or do you become stultified in the. Process of presenting entertainment per se for the individuals that welcome. Well. We don't become stultified because of the fact that the fellows who are our writers have been in for

two years or a year and a half or six months or eight months because of their short term that three years. Now they haven't been removed from society for that great length of time they have films and television so they can gauge when an actor on stage is working. Well they can tell that when the director is doing good things on that stage with the people that he has in the play that he has therefore they are not going to settle for second rate performances second rate productions because they know they have a great direct line with the basic truth of the situation. There is no way of glamorizing it for them because they know where it's at. And it's very and it's very encouraging that many of the fellows who were rehearsing with us and some of the fellows who are working on the set with it in the audience and watched the rehearsal take place and they would come to either John Beverly myself and hey

listen that's quick kind of slow. This actor was down it was a good piece of work that just took place. And they're fully cognizant of what they want to hear and what they want to see and they know how to judge it. Well I also see it was very interesting because in one of my scenes that I was doing I had to go to the governor to ask for an a piece by piece. Well you know there are P.R. times and after I finish my scene at the point where I was ready to tears and I did reach them very honestly and they became very honest in their reactions because they started to applaud me. And there were other times when I did think and it didn't happen it just didn't work for me. Therefore I had no reaction from them. But but just by being truthful and honest they become very truthful and honest. Well I don't know how this particular play the advocate deals with the controversy of the case a few years back concerning Sacco and Vanzetti I believe of

what. And you've also produced waiting. Hello out there. I mean all of these plays deal with prison subjects. What is the feeling about that I mean who decides what the theater for the good forgotten produces and is it advisable to produce plays dealing with prison subject matter for persons who are incarcerated. Well no one so much just sits there and a high Pat pedestal and rules as to what the inmates are going to see. We chose Hello out there who which was of course which is a young man in jail. Then the other play was a kind of a comedy a tragic comedy written by Jason Miller who did not die of cancer. That is not in there with prisms it was. And well to do family of means and the marriage was going and it was breaking apart and the reason for it. They

thought they could identify with it. The fact that we did Sacco and Vanzetti was because we. I happen to have encouraged it because I happen to like the story of Sacco and Vanzetti. Jon also saw a great opportunity with this play to not only involve the inmates as an audience but also to really involve a great number of them because in their production because the response that came to us after the June performances of the two one act plays was so fantastic that when we called down when we asked some of the fellows if they would like to participate in the next production we had something like about 45 or 50 fellows who turned up and only two or three cellblocks knew of our visit there to see. Whereas now after we after finishing the advocate I'm sure that when we go next time and audition people for jobs in the next

production the number will have to measure pretty close to the hundred because they are that interested they want to become involved. They have nothing that they can give their time so completely to and so with such a great joy and enthusiasm and that was brought about because of the fact that first they like the entertainment that we have for them they like the opportunity to express themselves and they like to work creatively. And having gained the confidence. I love from my eyes and also their work the possibility of working with John who was so instrumental in mounting this production. They feel like we may have too many actors. If I wanted too many there is there there will never be too many people want to be interested in the theatre. But I think the wonderful thing about it is that the inmates really forget that they are interesting when theyre working with us. I mean for those hours what it and you know and we were there from how many hours John about six hours a day they really forgot

that they were in me somehow make excuse me coming here brings to mind the mechanics of the whole thing. How do you go how do you what kind of a schedule are you allowed in prison and are guards standing over you. I mean what just what is the situation there. John can it online. I would try to get us started as close to 1 o'clock as possible there are three counts a day in which all the inmates are assembled in their blocks in their cells one that takes place early in the morning one that takes placement well there for a big part and one that takes place midday one mid-afternoon and then one early evening. Now to have anybody out of his cell. That account requires an out count. I would have to try therefore to schedule my rehearsal so that we would have a minimal number of out counts because it's a big McGillis for them. We were there between the

hours of approximately noon and 7. However in building we would then have a smaller group of men always supervised by officers they prefer to be called officers. Sometimes late as three o'clock in the morning. Now these men are working on a volunteer basis. They worked harder they were more willing more capable in some instances than any crew I have ever had any place and I've stayed managed on Broadway as old as well as off Broadway and all over the country. For me it was I think the most remarkable experience of my lifetime. I think that that goes to especially one evening we had a performance when all the lights went out. It was a Wednesday evening and they know their work so well that everything just read specifically understand it has 30 some scenes in

it 20 some sets and it was kind of with no light backstage no lighting with two movable wagon it was quite something like 40 pieces of furniture requiring to be stacked in a space much too small for about twenty eight flying pieces. Something like one hundred and six lamps. And no into communication possible because we have no light. I willing honesty backstage they ran the show without me mistaking this. This sounds incredible and I mean to hear it described this way because it's quite a coordinating problem even with only three scenes and many less lights and what have you. The fact that you were able to do this I would. Well this ties in with something else now. I had a group on seminars and theater which included the producer and a few actors and a few inmates in connection with a play that is

running currently off Broadway called fortune and men's eyes and. These are the experiences that were recounted from this play by John I remember during the short term inmate. They were not I mean they were there for six months maybe a year or a year and I happen to know but this short period of incarceration and the point of the play is that there is there's a great laxity in supervision and a great deal of sadism a great deal of perversion. And you can go on with the catalogue that happens to relatively inexperienced persons in terms of prison not I think that that does bring up a point which should be clarified. It's a magical point one that the way that an institution run is run rather differs from institution to

institution. Those conditions do not maintain themselves in the way they were trained in that play at Rikers Island. That is not to say they may not persist someplace else I don't know I can't speak for the writers I was one of the places mentioned by this group that I had on and the idea also was that maybe you were not allowed to see what was going on I think probably as much as any he civilian. Obviously I cannot look at it from an inmate's point of view but in so far as any civilian has ever gotten down to the nitty gritty I think that I can speak fairly objectively. I'm not trying to whitewash Riker's Island. There are obviously many things that are need of improvement but I feel that it would be wrong to place the emphasis upon those things that need improving rather than the things that have already been improved. For several reasons I mean first of all it just makes common sense that if you are going to attack somebody for his mistakes he's going to be involved in being self defensive if

you tell him you're doing a wonderful job. The chances are he's going to do more in the future and we as guests of the institution are not about to be in the position of coming in and saying you know my God like I'm going on because we that was not our experience you know. Did you find it depressing working in Britain. No no no no not at all like the other part of the point. I'm not sure that anybody because it does often come up. People I think generally speaking have a very mistaken notion of the kind of individual who is an inmate an inmate I would think 70 percent of the time and that's not a casual figure that's a rather legitimate percentage does not belong so much in an institution a penal institution as he does some place where he could receive intensive therapy and. Rikers Island one of the largest areas one of the largest numbers in the population is devoted to people who are in one way or another involved with dope on the streets.

These men quite frankly and quite obviously do not belong in a penal institution they don't belong behind bars any more so than you or myself. What do they do need psychiatric help however and it is a fault in our society not in the penal system but in our society that it refuses to recognize this so that these men can therefore receive proper treatment. Because I can think of several instances of men in our company who are lovely people and I know the day they get out on the streets they're going to do exactly the same thing in the going to be back in the next day because there's nothing being done to help these men. Not the institution's fault. They're not psychiatrists. I think you're right because two of the persons that were on the program were former inmates who had been in and out of prison over a span of 15 years repeatedly. But somewhere along the line something had happened and snapped positively for this person who he

just knows he's not going back I mean he and that's he was participating in discussions in connection with the 14 men's eyes by the way. Have you seen the play part in a man's eyes. Yes yes I want to know. The theater is being used more and more in this direct communicative way of setting up object lessons through the method of drama to demonstrate some social wrong or to demonstrate some have to know what is causing our society to be what it is. Do you advocate reducing the use of live in this way. More and more categorically not here is needed. And it's not a living newspaper it's not propaganda it's not a propagandist device it is rather it's it's a good time. And I realize that that's an oversimplification too I think to the degree that it

can be therapeutic. A for our for ts ts purposes that is true and only one way and that is if you give an inmate an opportunity for example there is a large Muslim population also. If you give a man an opportunity to say in the words of a character those things that he will never say to your face or to my face but to his cronies in his cell. Somehow the fact that he can say these out loud may or may not be therapeutic to him. But my major concern must be because I'm not a qualified psychologist of any sort nor are any of us my major concern must be how entertaining is for the people who come to watch. We hope that we can provide them with a positive experience because many of these men have never had the opportunity to belong to a group in which they shared responsibility and a common goal which they saw brought to fruition. One of the glorious things about theater is that do you work on a show that's going to open on X date. So everybody devotes their energies towards X date and it happens.