Couchiching conference; 4

The CBC in the Canadian Institute on public affairs now bring you session number four of the coaching conference that evening Bob Wilson once again speaking from Copeland hall in the YMCA is leadership and conference center near already Ontario. Participants from many parts of the world have gathered here to discuss and consider aspects of the new year. Tonight's topic government management and labor under the chairmanship of Mr. Arnold Edinburgh former editor of Saturday night and chairman of this year's conference program committee. The panelists are Allister Gillespie Dr Rudolph mime Berg and I cut arson and Vladimir of out of it. And here to introduce them is on a level graph for him. Little ladies and gentlemen the subject tonight we hope will be more specific. We have dealt with a large picture of the Common Market. We didn't duck with the larger picture of Europe. Now we want to come down to some of the specifics of government management and labor. We want to bear in mind I think from the Canadian point of view and perhaps from the European point of view

that in a great many successful businesses in fact in Canada in all successful businesses the government is a 50 percent partner. So they're in it anyway and there is a tendency perhaps on the part of industry as a result of that when they run into trouble to say to the government well it's up to you to find a way out for us. Management of course isn't always just ready to run to the government. They have their own plans but sometimes they feel I think that their plans which they've made gang after glady because they have to deal with labor and labor of course feels that if management went in charge of the factory they would be able to do things a lot better. So therefore the interplay of government in a very senior row and of management and labor in a very specific role is really what we're concerned with this evening. Again I've said it's a very specific kind of evening. And the people we have are people who know about these problems

at first hand. For example we have first of all. Eric Patterson and Mr. Eric Patterson comes to us from Sweden where he is in the research department of the Confederation of Swedish trade unions. And just in case he's given to European a kind of look at this I would remind you if you don't already know that he has just been spending a year studying structural changes in the economy and its effects on the labor force at the University of California Berkeley. The second man is a doctor is Mr. Vladimir fell a bit and was too proud to be a vela bit in his present position is that of executive secretary of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe. In other words an international civil servant. But when Earlier today I said Is this really what you are he said. Well perhaps I'm a politician. Now somewhere between an international civil servant and a politician he is also of course a man who has had experience as a minister. As for external affairs he has

also had experience as he confessed last night after turning himself into a general at short notice. This I think shows the range of his achievements and he wants particularly this evening to discuss a particular experiment in Yugoslavia where they do in fact take out some of the management labor functions and give them all to one group. Thirdly we have Dr Rudolph Berg and Dr. Rudolph my Amberg knows about money. He should do because he is employed by the Deutsche Bank in Frankfurt to mine and as well as being concerned with money. He also should know the theory of money since he lectures he is a professor in fact in a university in Germany. He will tell us that no new business can succeed without money and indeed I don't really think we need anyone to come from Germany to tell us that. But just how we can get it. Perhaps we might get some tips. Now

Max Koncz time was to have been here this evening but Max Konstam way back in January said that he could not be here this evening if the Common Market negotiations were not recessed. Now it is perhaps an opinion and not a fact that these negotiations are still in fact in progress because Mr Macmillan want something concrete to confront the Commonwealth prime ministers with in September. So Mr McMillan's gain is our loss and Dr Konstam is not with us. He has to be there. We have however therefore corrupted Mr Alice to Gillespie to the panel this evening. To Gillespie as a graduate of Oxford in the University of Toronto here's a person who has a great interest in this conference because he is the chairman of the Executive Committee and vice president of the Canadian Institute on public affairs. He is also when he's not busy on the affairs of the Institute of Public Affairs he is the face president of WGA gaijin

company publishes paper converters printers and the rest of it in Toronto. There is your panel. Ladies and gentleman. And I think we should get down to specific specific questions and some specific dances. No evasions this evening either from the floor or from the podium or from the pack. And I will first then call on Mr. Patterson because I think Mr. Patterson as a trade unionist can perhaps tell us something of what the problems are particularly in his own country with relevance to the general condition of trade unionism throughout the world and in view of the Common Market. Mr. Pettus Thank you Mr. Chairman ladies and gentleman I suppose is being employed by the trade unions I should make here tonight to manage the mores of organized labor in this first. Have ever I would like to broaden my job somewhat and give a

more general description about the institutions and forces in Sweden that I believe had helped us to create this piece in the labor market that we are rather well-known around the world for. And to begun begin with a group I know best the trade unions. And if I may be allowed to boast a little perhaps I could say that in point of organizational strange perhaps less we used trade union movement is the strongest in the world. It's not about a homogeneous movement however it is split up in a rather peculiar way. Their oldest and by far the largest organization is the unions that belong to the Confederation of Swedish trade unions or as we call it in Sweden and this p. People organized

in these organizations are primarily so-called blue collar workers and they are roughly one and a half million. Then we have special organizations for so-called white collar or salaried employees. The biggest in this field is a TCO that has about half a million members. Then there's another important organization and say a CEO that organizes only persons with a university degree. They have roughly 100000 people in there and unions. If I would a guess I would say that perhaps 75 to 80 percent of all people that can be organized belongs to unions in Sweden in manufacturing industry the figure is even higher. 95 to 98 percent of all workers are members of one union or another. And this of

cause means that the trade union movement is very strong indeed and can prevent them from being exploited by the employers and can guarantee them a fair share of an increased production. This development on the labor side as I have forced the employees to organize too. So we have very strong employers organizations the largest is the Swedish Employers Association or the s.a.m as we call it. And their members employ roughly 700000 workers. The Swedish confederation of trained unions that I work for is by tradition cooperating very closely with the Social Democratic Party the party in power since 30 years back in Sweden. And this gives the unions a lot of rather large choice in the

tactics and if they can't come to agreement with the manager or if it's a question that they believe they can't rationally be settled through negotiations they can choose to go the political way and try to influence the government to Legace late in the question. There is a large membership and there is a close affiliation to a political movement however and also lead to it that the unions get a little broader outlook than just wages and working conditions. And today most is years in the economic and social field. It does affect union members in one way or another and the unions are concerned about them and the great power of the unions have also is a fake that the unions can't get away from accepting very large responsibilities too.

Then there is a third force that's very important in explaining the situation in the Swedish labor market and that is that we have also a rather strong government being a welfare state of course we have a large public sector but even outside this public sector the government through various policies or administers measures can change the surrounding which neighbor and management when they can also change the bargaining position of one or the other party. Today as I said the situation in the Swedish market is indeed very peaceful but it hasn't always been this way. In the 1920s and 1930s the Swedish labor market was characterized by a great on rest. Strikes and locales were very common. This led to that practically every year in the parliament. That was a proposition

for legislation that could regulate the actions of labor and management. And if there is one thing Swedish managers and trade unionists have in common is that they don't want government to interfere with collective bargaining. So this threat of legislation forced the two groups labor and management to come together and 1936 is a very important year in this case and it is in this year. We're signing this so-called Sanscrit bargain agreement in pounds as I can say that the negotiations and were carried out and the agreement signed in the same place where d e FTA agreements were worked out between Sweden Great Britain and the other countries sevens. This M.E. agreement between the compensation of Swedish trade unions and the Swedish employers as it was 8 percent regulated bargaining procedures grievance proceed

years strikes of a national emergency character and strikes that affected a third party. Then we go on on this co-operative basis and got other types of Master agreements covering works councils time emotions dollars etc. etc.. That's the existence of three powerful groups in the society trade unions management organizations and the state and in more theoretical economic terms you might say we have only a police tick situation here means that these groups are very closely interrelated and the people leading these organizations are realistic enough to see this fact and let's brings them closer together. Of course this is just the structural and institutional background. When it comes down to reality the important thing are the

people that leads the organizations and not the institutions themselves. And I think I dare say that today even if we didn't have these forces that in themselves prances the people to come to peace for agreements the people leading these organizations have a positive will to come to compromises and peaceful solutions. And I think that's the background to the labor market situation in Sweden. Thank you very much Mr. Carson. It seems there that we have a situation that is realistic that is idealistic and it works. I can't think that it's as rosy as all that and I hope that you will take monsieur's around us. Strict to your hearts when he says we should be self-critical when the time comes that is. Well here is something then realistic and idealistic and I want to watch Dr Phil a bit if he will tell us something about an experiment

in Yugoslavia. Up to that labor management and government usually understood city groups which have more or less the interest when say they're always necessarily contradictory. A lot of very often particularly the two groups management and labor have divergent interests. Now I would like to tell you how we in my own country to reconcile this is and to a new aspect of an organisation which somehow comprises those memes in one venture. The beginnings of the cause was the

fact that industry and tons of other enterprises national. The end of the ball in Ford is set in the first year which followed the national interest and other economic enterprises. The management of this and the prize is a longer pattern which is followed in countries which have national industry in the broad outlines. I don't think that there is a difference between the management of such enterprises in England and Eastern European countries.

So was the case also in my own country. But then I thought that it would be necessary to develop a system that gave additional incentive to the US they should be conscious for themselves and not simply salary. Yes and this led as gradual to the development of a system which we are calling self management. The basic idea of a permit system is that ownership of all the means of production belonging to the society as a whole and the means of

production given to the collective of workers technicians and employees. Management and they're trying to manage this enterprise to the best in order to get the maximum result out of it. Because that is a very expensive very revolutionary idea and couldn't be implemented very abruptly and it once and for this we have to introduce it step by step stages. The first beginning of the implementation of this. Bars. The establishment of Workers Councils towards the

end of 949 which lasted about two years and Enterprise didn't have the full rads of management but giving an advisory function more or less but they gained in this two years a lot of experience in neighborhood of my country. The basic law on the management of the players is bad of a collective vision was put into force on the 27th of July 150. Now they can look back of an experience about. Yes and I'm able to say that without regard to those

shortcomings and of course certain roughness. The whole system is so far out to the satisfaction and it's going to be improved all the time but the experience gained in this work VERCO is the whole of the whole collective engaged in the functioning of enterprise. If the enterprise counts more than certain workers they are electing equal vote kind of of the Bawd kind of Parliament which is called the workers council. This worker's Council. The principal powers in an enterprise. Yes it has.

Main tasks. Too late now onto the term in the economic policy of the enterprise. There are going to zation of the enterprise regulation of of the production processes of the enterprise and the distribution of the results of the efforts of the. This worker's Council is in sachets according to the size of the enterprise. Yes because it's quite obvious that an enterprise which has only hundred workers and the other is has 2000 workers can't have the same number of members of the council. For this reason Lol the number of the of the burkas Council in the enterprise goes from thirty two hundred and twenty.

Understand that such a big body cannot and because it can of course except hear reports about the running of the enterprise. But the day to day management of the Enterprise would be impossible in such a huge body but the workers council elect amongst them the board smaller which has 11 people and the director of the Enterprise Bank is function member of the managing ball and it is this small little bitch. I would say acts in the same board of directors in your country is ultimately

responsible for for the for the. Organization of of the prize and its work and he discusses important questions with his colleagues of the book. The workers council come together and they are informed by the managing board about the success and the failures about the problems faced by their managing board and give guidance and directives to the managing bot. And one of the very important tasks of the burghers Council is to decide how the profit of the enterprise divided up. But after the profits of the enterprise

divided into groupings one of the of the government that it is as you would call it here. Nobody can escape the payment of taxes as you very well know from your own experience. The other part of the profits put into development Fung of the enterprise and a lot of necessary investments in the increase of the of the enterprise. Our fans are this fan. The search bar is shared among the participants of the enterprise as in technicians getting Virk ink which is a year has ended with a positive result.

Profit they are sharing the fruits of this positive result in their getting a part of of of this profits over and above their wages. That is in order to ensure the direct personal interest of anybody who is engaged in the prize and is ready incentive for better organization of the less ways and a better working this. You have to live it up to this point I think many people would have thought that the only good thing that ever came out of the committee was the translation of the King James Version of the Bible. But it looks now that in Yugoslavia at least a committee can even increase their own wages if they chop profit at the end of the year now. In a more traditional area perhaps we have Dr. Rudolf my member GG

and he will tell us some of the problems which are facing management labor and government in Germany. Dr Michael. Thank you Mr. Chairman ladies and gentlemen. Me I try to say a few words about government management and label regarding through silly notions of full employment monetary stability and grows in and dynamic economy with continuing gross and in an economy which is free to enterprise and it in advance I might say that we have a lot of troubles in so far now. In my country. There is no one not in stay our troubles in the first period after the war as we have had this enormous reconstruction activity. And yes we have had the task to incorporate 12 million refugees. This

means 25 percent of total population. So relations between government minister the labor way are not so easy to settle and all the Greek state's main task was to create a work labor of poor people. But it's millions and employees and their relations between government and as he also trade unions were and so far always good. The problems arose in the last two years where we had not longer our reserves on menthol where this 12 million refugees were integrated at least economically certainly only one expects where our reserves on material capacities were also often exhausted. And no there was it quite difficult to

realise and once full employment gross and monetary stability. Let me mention some metal parts which you triage to adopt. First activity of the central bank. You have not had a head for deflationary tendencies. After the war because dynamism was permanently so strong that we have had nearly always opposite danger inflationary tendencies. Therefore rustic to measure us off the central bank where possible without the danger of large unemployment. But we make experience other countries to take such methods. One cannot only operates. There are. Then we call branches Rico enterprises would suffer more than as us and our

strong measures of central bank. And second means moral suasion of the governance it rests specially and openness to avoid such avoidable pious risings to realize as far as possible price reductions and further on also to pursue AIDS and the nurse to be reasonable in disposing on their earnings means to divide same reasonable between shareholders between self-financing and between the income of us in all this. The government tried to influence psychologically to end up in us not to control or them not to give them our loss then to persuade them and we have had certain but not always sufficient success in so far.

This search means cooperation between government and trade unions. This was never naturally organize but especially in the reconstruction period up to 960 may I say I was rather successful as I mentioned already the trade unions have been very well cooperated in the interest of creating new work for an employers but it is natural in the last years where you have this scarcity on a neighbor Oh no we have more than 600000 foreigners and the would be glad to have more. It becomes it seems to me to be quite understandably more difficult and therefore we must see in the last years that a rising of waitress was much more all extended stands arising of productivity and

knowing the wages in Germany. Not always but very often the highest inside of so our community and our competitive position in the community and in the West on the road. It's certainly not longer in miliary it's on the contrary. And false the government tried to stimulate one Tory saving in the interest of capital formation in the interest of new investment activity and this was quite successful. People tune in very important volume and this contributes that we have up to now a head high keep its a permission but it must be set. All of this what I mentioned here was in the last two years not sufficient to

create such a fission equilibrium between consume and production and specially to reassure sufficient investment rates they will permanently a tendency that condom rate was too high. There are some other measure metals too especially in the interest of social peace may I mention only the realisation of core determination of so workers and then furthering of broadening the property on industry property as I mentioned yesterday and as a Met Office. Which I might no longer enumerate here. The question I know is what has to be done to be more successful then the people is enormously susceptible to

susceptible in the question of monetary stability. It is in no one's hostile against all sorts of creeping inflation especially to save us this fundament of our society. I'm not willing to accept any political social economic order where there is a permanent creeping inflation. This is today our main problem. And we did not. May I confess find unsatisfying solution and we have now the question are we longer able to realize all this free gold its full employment monetary stability and sufficient grosser without an quite active public intervention without direct price controls or even wage controls. We are sinking and free society which free enterprise

cannot introduce such direct surprise and wage controls. In a certain case the government tried to use its to try to influence price information in Fox Marcum but it was a failure so many did not that want to rig a government wanted in saying they must have a certain price rising in the interest of sufficient investment capital formation. And I think the government is not able in a free economy to say what are the right prices. They must try to influence the development more in and in direct indirect way. And this is the alternative of the present situation. In my opinion. Ladies and gentlemen. One can only sour this quite difficult question

in an dynamic economy where there is a tendency to hurt our grows where our scarcity is on men and on what material capacities. If there will be a certain human behavior all of us are not sufficient. Moral situations are not sufficient central bank activity not sufficient. The question is if people or people in such an economy which is expanding with high demands is able to find moderate solutions and to find the ability to compromising and not to realize too much and too quickly. All of this various aims and so found me I close these remarks. We are seeing quite clearly so then sick problems which has to be

solved in an economy which is dynamic. I'm not specifically target of economic although there are more of a human. Although they are laying in this brought you in. Relations in in that capacity to find compromises and to realize moderation. Thank you. Well thank you. I am Dr membered. This reminds me of when I was at lunch with Dr. Mann back a couple of days ago I said Don't you think that capital and the provision of capital is the basis of a business and he said no. People are the basis of the business and you can see. What he just said that he really believes this. Now also in the kind of people they have in Germany they find the same kind of trouble that we have with our kind of people here in Canada. The creeping inflation may also be followed by galloping consumption. Now whether that is what

Mr. Gillespie is going to talk about I don't know but I am not going to ask him to put a Canadian accent on what we said in the past 20 minutes Mr. Gillespie. I'm not I'm not sure that our major problem today is galloping consumption. I think that generally Canadians have a very high regard for the economic resurgence of the European countries. This admiration for the European resurgence is coupled with a new dismay and disappointment and disillusionment and even frustration with respect to Canadian economic affairs. This is born I think perhaps of a of a new awareness that our destiny is not as inevitable as some of our leaders once told us in the early part of the 20th century. Now we have become inward looking. As a people we

are concerned with matters of unemployment. Almost as high as we've ever had. We are concerned about becoming a high cost producer. We're concerned and in some quarters only recently with the balance of payments problem. We are we are becoming too good to understand that we haven't enjoyed the rate of growth that some might like us to believe we have enjoyed that our gross national income on a per capita basis is somewhat static if not declining. Now it seems to me that there is a response being generated now encounter that this response is taking a number of forms and encouraging forms but it's still somewhat tentative.

We have on the one hand organized labor still interested in increasing its share of the National Pie. But starting to say things like strikes are an obsolete weapon for achieving our aims and we have management playing with him idea rather tentatively to that planning or some sort of planning particularly if you can call it by Another Name Is that might be useful. There's saying this at the same time they're also perhaps rather hang onto the idea that the least government is the best government but governmental assistance is not so bad if it helps your industry and the government as a whole are also concerned.

They're talking rather amiably and in my view on the sidelines and not questions of productivity. Well the question seems to me for Canadians is this what should be done. Who should do it. How should it be done. They were having a characteristic difficulty in making up our minds you know. The the one thing that I think that many of us feel is that we've encountered have got to reach some accommodation between management neighbors some accommodation has to be reached and this and this connection that we have been told eloquently by Mr. Patterson how this accommodation was reached in Sweden. We have also been told by air my bird of some of the. Of the

climate which exists in Germany which in some respects perhaps may not be too difficult or too different rather from our own. I would like to put a question to Mr. Patterson. Along these lines he has indicated the institutional framework whereby management and labor have come together. He has indicated that strikes are a rarity now in Sweden but I'm interested in is what are the issues in collective bargaining now in Sweden. Could you could you tell us something about this. Well this is all the same as they've been always been higher wages better working conditions and butt strikes and lookouts seem to be outmoded mentors. And one reason is the institutional framework as I tried to

describe. And to go into more in detail and where these strong organizations on both sides both labor and management having their own powerful and federations and a government that also has some powerful too was in their hands. And it's not possible for unions to act exactly in the way they would like to if they can't get it. Everything they've on from the nanny share. They would like to have a nice small little strike while they strike some stuff he ticks times while they could have the majority of the members in so they could subsidize those out of work. This is not possible when management is organized because if we struck a few firms and the management was on set with a look out in the whole industry and of course the next step from the union side would be to call on sympathy strikes from our

unions which will lead to new sympathy look outs from management side and the risk is that this inevitably would lead to a situation of national emergency and the government would be forced to intervene whether they like it or not. They would have to do it and as I said earlier if that's one thing it's waste management and labor has in common is that they don't want any interference in their own affairs. And this pressure is so strong on them so they have to come to an agreement and then I will say this has become a sort of a pattern. And we've also been known around the world for these peaceful settlements which is another pressure on us to keep up with our record. Well and on that rather optimistic note we will give the audience seven minutes whilst we last we interview the students from the school in Long Island which I mentioned at the beginning of the program. So the audience here in Copeland hall it could you

please take a break. The radio audience we hope will stay with us well as we interview our students. And here is Bob Wilson to interview them. Over to you Bob. Thank you Mr. Edinborough and we're most delighted here coaching this year to have a very active group of 11 students from Long Island New York with us I think the first time that we've ever had a group of students from anywhere here at pitching aside from Lee University people who come each year. And as well as the group from SAS in New York we have a young lady from at least a high school in Toronto who has joined us. We have two representatives from the Long Island school that I'm going to talk to Gail Greenberg and Fred Swartz. And first of all I'd like to put a question to Gail like to know Gail why you people have come here to coaching. You. Thanks to people such as social studies department we're here to learn more about you. People are people their problems similarities and differences.

Fred is the assessment would you say yes or a few differences. And. We made some. Points. First. Just before we get into that I'm interested to know how you were chosen to come here. Well it's your social studies teacher once a week and then the names were chosen this way. Let's not overlook our young lady from high school. Well I've been interested in animations in foreign affairs. This is a chance for me to learn. So you're up here with your family but of your own volition. Yes. OK. What did you people expect before you left New York before you came here what did you expect of the conference.

I expected just about what came I wasn't sure the type of location that we have what type of people that would be here but we just we expect discussions on foreign affairs and that's what we are. Yes. OK. Has the conference lived up to your expectations that. So far seems to be very good. We've met a lot of people that we didn't expect to meet a lot of authorities on different subjects that we've really been in lightness or European affairs. Fred do you feel that we've been I think a light in on some opinions. And. We find at least I personally find the conferences very stimulating specially this discussion that you people have been taking a very active part of the small group discussions and you say you've learned a lot about Canadians feelings about you I take it you mean you as Americans. Yes. What kind of opinions have been expressed and are very good. People. Present.

But but so much. As a nation. And. We were. In what specific ways it was a joke said about us things that we don't really understand but I guess more than anybody country existed we thought what sort of things are they saying that you don't understand jokes in discussion groups. Well it isn't so much people took your message here but. Now you're talking about the jokes about the Americans is a question of language do you think that Americans really don't speak the same language. I think it's a question of culture. They're actually living in two different countries and of course both British.

We left rather suddenly into. Maine. And. We find there were a few. Things that commonly happens you know. That you have to ask a native Canadian. Julie we've been ignoring you but we're not going to any longer because they've been saying that. They're not too popular here do you think that's a fair assessment from the point of a Canadian high school student. Well I didn't really think so until I came here and I myself would be amazed at some of the opinions. From the speakers not only from the Canadians but from the speakers from Europe. You don't think personally that it's a fair assessment that Canadians at least of your age group don't like the Americans of my age. But. Maybe. These these people from Europe have reasons like from their background. To learn to think this way.

You think there is a lack of understanding. Yes I think so. What you think is the cause of that. The American. Students I don't think understand as much about Canada as they could and. I don't know I think I think if they did there could be a better understanding between even between the American high school students and Canadian high school students which might improve the situation. You think then that it's fair to say the Canadian high school students know more about the United States than the United States. Canada definitely. Well I know I'm going to get a reaction here. It's true that we don't learn about Canadian history. But. We hope that we will learn from being here and perhaps take more action after this. Fred you look anxious to add something. Well this is true. It's a pain as an expression. We don't have any Canadian history. And this is an education

just people's opinions. We are. Learning about. People in. History. What about Europe since this is the subject of a conference. What are you learning about Europe and particularly interesting I. Think. There is much more enthusiasm. United States about the Common Market and some of the coming of the nation. Frankly. Were very enthusiastic about. Britain going into the Common Market. What kind of. Question. I think this is an opinion generally shared by young Americans that it's a good idea for Britain to the Common Market. Well I know this would might hurt the Americans economically but I think people have begun to come up with a good feature. But if we. Think of united Europe with a single government and I disagree I think

you point the western world first economically. The question of Europe is so important. United States at this point. Firstly the very mode of the United States in. My opinion. What do you think about Britain entering the common market as a Canadian high school student having heard the opinions of the Europeans here. It's. It's. Not quite certain whether. It would have. A good effect on the Common Market or not. I think. It. Might have a greater economic effect on. On Canada. But if they ended it it might be. Be better in the long run. Things that have come up here at the conference particularly trouble you that you don't understand. You know we were talking earlier about the French English problem. Oh yes. There's another opinion again. That. Everything was. Fine. And. With the

French teams and English meetings we always got together and it was. Not such a problem seems to exist. And also. We have at least I ever heard of Russians. Who. Were almost ready to go back up to the platform but I perhaps can call a mystery in McDonald who's standing here he said. Mr. McDonald is an assistant professor of economics at the University of Toronto and perhaps he can give you a quick explanation of both those problems we've been talking. Well I would just like to reassure our visitors about any feelings of anti-Americanism that they carry away I think they should remember that there are very few genuine anti Americans in Canada but there are a great many pro Canadians. And since we happen to reside in the bosom of the United States it's very hard for us to forget the extent to which Americans feature in our daily life as a result we're consciously striving to identify ourselves as Canadians. And since you're the top dog it's very often a convenient target.

Well thank you very much Mr. Macdonald and thanks to Gail Greenberg Fred Swartz and Judy Silversides for talking with us and now it's back to the platform and our chairman Arnold at Brown. Ladies and gentlemen when I'm back with our part of this on the air and now I think the time has come to ask for questions from the floor. And I think this fiasco to ask questions of any members of the panel. And if you generate a discussion between the panel itself so much the better. Gentleman on the aisle. Chairman if I would have been here tonight he would have given without any doubt to picture in the Netherlands. I left the Netherlands as you know seven years ago but I was able to follow the development pretty closely so perhaps I may give just a few words the general picture. Two minutes two minutes less than that. As you know after the war we were in a disaster situation and we had to do everything to rebuild the country and then we came to the

situation that lawyers employees and trade unions formed an organization called the foundation of LIBOR. That has worked in the Netherlands in a surprisingly matter. We haven't had any strikes to speak of. And I can mention one occasion in 1957 there was a question of raising wages. And what happened. The trade union said listen it is not a time to raise wages. That is the best minutes when we've had another Knocked Up and Mr. Chairman I would like to seek some clarification from Mr Vella but on some of his earlier comments with respect to the organization of labor and the organization of the management councils in Yugoslavia as I understood him the workers organized the unions they also organize management. And I am wondering in that sense how

a labor management bargaining situation develops when it would appear that they're the same people on both sides of the table. I'd also like to ask him if this particular arrangement has produced a and industrial peace in Yugoslavia and also I would like to know if the agricultural workers of Yugoslavia are organized and if so what influence they have on the social tension and the industrial decisions which may be made in that country of development then it's quite natural that then to same people con bargain these other. And I wanted to explain that there are no two scientists but only one side and they trade unions in my county have now quite a different role to play. Then the unions in a capitalist country and

when I answer to one of the questions good before I said that they had unions here to set down the basic basic of ages and that is of cause more or less research and the scientific work which is assessed. Government management and labor. Three aspects of the new Europe receiving consideration at this years could reach in conference. The three European members of tonight's panel were Rudolph my membered Eric Patterson and Vladimir about it. Dr Mumm bargain is chief economic advisor to the Dutch a Bank in Frankfurt on mine. Eric Patterson whom you met in earlier sessions is in the research department of the Confederation of Swedish trade unions and Mr. velvet is executive secretary of the Economic Commission for Europe at Geneva. Sending questions from a particular Canadian point of view was Allister Gillespie the vice president of

WJ gauge limited publishers in Toronto. Former Saturday Night editor and publisher Arnold Edinburgh was chairman these annual conferences are held in Geneva park on Lake could change north of Toronto with joint sponsors the Canadian Institute on public affairs and the CBC tomorrow evening. The conference will turn to a topic that has kept recurring throat every meeting and discussion group since sessions began the Common Market. The financial editor of The Toronto telegram David Rennie will chair the meeting two of the participants have already appeared. They are William dbl Jr. who is senior research fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York and Professor emmel at all. Director of Studies at DeLay called Prateik days old IT CUTE IN PARIS. The two speakers who will be new to Kuching lessers are Crawford Goodwin assistant professor of economics at York University in Toronto. Mr. Henry a moon a consulting and research economist born in France now living in Montreal. The Common Market tomorrow evening at the coaching

conference. This is CBC Radio the Trans Canada network.