Asia Society presents; 67

The age of the present. This is a theory that interviews with experts on Asian affairs designed to strengthen our understanding of Asian people and ideas. Your post on the transcribed series is the noted author on the ward winning broadcaster league Graham. Here now is Mrs. Graham. I you know this is the Asia Society presents a series of programs and of course we talk about Asia all the time. We talk about Asia mostly though in contrast to the Western world Europe and the United States. This is the first time I believe at least on this series that we are going to talk about Asia in comparison to Africa. Those are two continents which are fascinating and different in many ways perhaps in some ways similar continents to which most of us have not all had the privilege of traveling. And so to compare them I think might give us a different perspective on Asia and I am delighted that our guest on this program is just the person to discuss this. She is there a

Michelle is being a professor of International Development Graduate School of Public Administration New York University and because a Dean is the author of a number of important papers and books but the book which I think by now is considered a classic by many people is her book called The Nature of the non-Western world. And since it's out in paper edition. Everyone going to afford it and I do very much recommend that you read it. Now Professor Being Have you travelled much in Africa as well as Asia. Yes I have. Mrs. Graham and I have traveled a great deal in Africa but I have spent more time in Asia and particularly in India where I taught at the Indian School of International Studies. Would you say that Asia and Africa have more in common or more in different. That's a very good question indeed and one which I'm glad you brought up.

I think that they are concerned about differences between Asia and Africa and we need to bear them in mind when we develop our United States of foreign policy. It is true that both continents have very ancient histories but generally speaking both countries are also which are behind in development in economic social and we would say partly also in political development. But they all have had very significant time spans because of the hour known to the world. Even in a period of around twelve hundred for before the great adventurers went to explore much of Asia and Africa we often forget however that in comparing Asia and Africa with Europe we are making a mistake about on both

counts. That is Asia and Africa are quite different in that they are development and do you want us to find it difficult to understand this because our history has been so different from that of these areas which we now call the developing nations of course they've been developing for centuries but only without our much thinking about it. And we do not realize that the continent in which we inhabit was not a day. Elop country before Westerners came here mostly Indians and buffaloes were here before Europeans began to develop the United States. Yes but I think that the white race has an attitude of supremacy or superiority about itself because it feels that it has had as short a time in which to develop and has developed in that brief span of time and gone ahead at least industrially compared to other only part

of the world. So you can say that an accident of history will call it what you will. And I think it must be the basis of a certain arrogance that the white race has which is very much resented by other races. That's very true. And of course it may well be that the United States might be also bear in mind that it is really the new cover on the world scene even as compared with Europe of course even as compared with western and central Europe. I always when I ask myself how long. Did a take for Europe to develop. Well I think England as an example which is one of the foremost nations of Europe. Roughly speaking it took from twelve hundred to 900 before the British developed democracy. It was for the first form of we who live in United States. We are the inheritors of many civilizations of European and. African

and Asian. But we do not always see these developments in quite the proper perspective because we think of the United States as being the most important. This is perfectly natural but I have put up with speculation it was insisting it is and we should correct it. When you when you compare Asia now going back to that in Africa and you say there are many differences. Would you say that some of the differences are as you point out in your book a matter of accident in history or is it more a matter of crime and having an unbearable climate makes it more difficult to progress. What would you say lies at the heart of the difference. No I think the differences are due to many factors the kind of population which a new age long before any of us were here to record how all this happened. The populations of Asia. Very different not only from those of

Africa as we know and will be discussing together and they obviously are very different from the peoples of Europe. It is true that there has been a great deal of migration of peoples over centuries. Nevertheless I think it is quite proper to identify each of the continents as having its own sweet generous as the Latins would say kind of development their own kind of development. When we speak of the Third World. What do we really mean. Well are we. I think I believe in far the countries which are not. Those of the group we call Europeans. And and and the United States that is the countries we are familiar with. We are thinking of in terms of the Third World which embraces Asia and Africa the Middle East and we say that this third world is comprised of Asian and African nations for the most part and the

Middle East. Yes. And that because they are a part of I don't know whether that's the concept of all the people who are what we would call the Third World are they. Mom now by some common even mystical idea that they are part of the Third World or are there differences so pronounced that they still are not part of any world. And that's a that's a very interesting question. I would say that by and large each of the areas that you have pinpointed has developed under a quite a different circumstances other circumstances of conditions of climate conditions of geography conditions of even in the course of development and the climate I think has a lot to do with where the differences among peoples. But certainly it is quite obvious that.

Africans for example who are part of it would be included in the third world do not always find themselves at ease with the Indians and as you know Indian settlers have gone to some of the countries of Asia because they are very capable businessman and capable innovators but they find themselves all of a sudden alien in Africa at the end of the Second World War. Instead of being welcomed for their bad methods of development as compared with Africa the Indians found themselves being told her in effect good bye and go somewhere else. We are now independent nation. I recall several summers ago taking a trip to the Southwest Pacific and one of the countries we stopped at was silver. Yes City or port in the Fiji Islands. Oh yes and there we were told that all the people were

Polynesian I guess for the most part that many Indians that settled there and were very successful in business. They are considered overaggressive than Wright quite a slight and you would find the same thing in Africa and. In such situations where some Indians are in the middle of being in the Middle East but in Africa this path is particularly pronounced. And Indians have had to leave Africa to their great regret and. But since they are the result of their existence in Africa they had become British citizens in effect in the days when Britain was still a colonial power. They have an opportunity to go to Britain which and this has proved to be a problem for the British. Would you say that people of the suit those who are nonwhite and who have been colonial lives feel exploited in the past that they are united in that

in that they dislike the white man and they dislike the European and the American. I think I would put it this way. It is not true that Asians and Africans and other peoples. Dislike of the white man has not run a Westerner but the distrust would be a better phrase because other Westerners came as colonizers and as rulers into all these areas whether they came from France or Belgium or Britain or some other western country. The nations of Europe which have had the least of this problem until now have been for example the Germans who did not do very significant colonizing. They hope to do their colonizing in Eastern Europe. Yes and I've done it very well until recently. Yes or let's say the other way around.

The Russians have Connel colonial isor colonized Germany so it would take away in World War 2 where it would be useful actually to bring the USSR into this picture because the USSR has a very large number of nonwhite people as you know of Asia living within its borders and those those people live of course in what is called Asia and Russia and they have been quite successful in development since. Communist rule was established in Russia and they are the present time in communist Asia. That part which belongs to the USSR to give you were just one example of what the Russians have in my opinion have done wisely. They make it possible for the children of the Asian speaking people

to study and do all their studies in Asian languages as well as with age and language as the first language and the second language is Russian. Yes that's a politic thing to do. That was a very sensible arrangement. Would you say that Asians and Africans don't know each other very well to begin with. And that's part of the problem. Even if they have problems in common or history in common. Well in a sense the fact that they don't have the same history makes it more possible for them to communicate in a relatively detached way if I may make one. Give you one example of what I have in mind. Apparently some of the African countries have found it possible to bring Chinese. Experts Chinese experts are building a way away. For example right now in Africa. They are sufficiently remote. The Chinese so that

that the Africans have not yet learned that perhaps they may have troubles with the Chinese some time as other peoples have we know we all have had troubles with some other throughout history so that the Chinese may be more trusted since they are far far away than some of the western US who have settled who had settled inside in one way or another in Africa. When I talked about the history the Asian Africa had come and I was thinking again of this history being settled by imperialist powers so that they have come to distrust a man in a white face. Well that's very important and I tell you the imperialism which is basically far away from you that is as a country is perhaps a little less fear than the imperialism you have already seen and. When you have already found out that say what the British of French aw aw others had done

in Africa the Asians might say well maybe the Africans are easier to get along with all the Africans making me feel in the same way until they too begin to see the price of their mutual problems. So even if some people in Africa know of the fact that the Chinese mainland China decided to take back. Which he said belonged to her in the first place. That would be african too much because it's so far away needed I don't think it has anything to do with it and it is not relevant to him what he is interested in is who is going to help him develop his continent. Who is going to help him with education without funds for for development purposes. Is that more of that give and take more that economic and industrial aid international aid now flowing from Asia to Africa than from the United States and Europe to Africa. But I don't I do not believe one could say that Asia is contributing

significantly in terms of money for investment. But what is has contributed has been the Libra. Some Asians buy primarily Chinese who are themselves of course much more advanced in this respect than the Africans. And again I think I believe it is easier for the Africans for the time being. This may not last in the future to receive aid or instructions for perhaps from people who are not white. Is it because they do have this remembrance of oppression. Both in Africa and Asia that they will ultimately lead to continents in the many nations now upon them find themselves working together to the exclusion of the West. As time goes on I doubt that there will be exclusion of the West I think there will be. Continuing relations with the West but not the feeling

that has existed in many of the developing countries that they all had to rely solely on a few Western countries notably Britain. France both Britain and France of course the colonial powers for many years and more recently the United States. My impression is that both in Africa and in Asia there is a tendency to feel that diversity of relations may be a protection against eventual occupation of one kind or another. But in your book which I found most profound the nature of the non-Western will propensity you do talk of the feeling of inferiority which an Asian and an African often feels when confronted by a European or an American. He knows he has not progressed industrially although he has other treasures to offer which may be right down upon by the West. He knows that and he feel self-conscious and therefore he

cannot like the person who seems to be superior to him. Do you think this is a situation I can ever be corrected. I was brought up by a French governess in the wilds of Russia Petersburg and my French governess used used to say never use the word never. And this has proved to be a wonderful basis for a vast area Baudelaire because I have seen so many things happening in the last quarter of a century or so where the things that were never supposed to happen did happen and those you thought would never happen at all have developed so that it is worthwhile to bear in mind how all kind of become adjusted to too many ideas and perspectives which seem completely different completely new.

Well that is comforting a statement its not. Oh yeah a long time we have all absorbed something or other tragedy has a way of disappearing or evolving into something else. Yes probably laziness can improve become that. Thats right I think we all should think in terms of how one can improve one's condition. But those of us who are Westerners and I count myself by. Western out of the eastern world. Those who are of us own our Westerners must realize that we too have many have a good deal to learn from Asians and Africans. You were born in the northern part of Russia. I was born in what was then the capital St. Petersburg and became Petrograd and is now Leningrad. I ask that because you have the Baltic blue eyes already. One hears about which I saw when I was in that part of Russia myself so that's a digression but I am a northerner. Yeah. Since we have no television I thought I should bring that point.

Mrs Dean in closing I would like to ask you since your field is so much international relations international governments what might the United States keep in mind in dealing with Africa and be in dealing with Asia. I think the United States must be a very. Countries today that are leaders of Asia and Africa. Now independent for keeps and that they must have the decision to make as to what they want to achieve under water circumstances I think the United States can do a great deal to develop the technological aspects of life in Asia and Africa. But it would be wise for us to express. Our. Concern with admiration for at least I feel both concern and admiration for the peoples of Asia who have made such a Distinguished Contribution throughout the ages whether in there whether it is in India or whether it is in

the countries of Africa to other ideas of mankind to the philosophies of the world and who am sure that with material aid from the West can progress in the future. That really is the goal of this program too. Let Asia become a continent about which we know more that it should not be in mysterious place although its glamour and exoticism Heaven forbid that they vanish but that it should be a continent which can be comprehended that the east and west do not have to be separate. And I'm sure will be an increase of that knowledge. We then must appreciate the tremendous contribution of Asia to now I suppose the West has still been a little condescending. I always found it definitely And of course it is worthwhile to remember that the British who are on the home among the best colonizers in the world it is that they had respect for other people's

ideas and for the development of other peoples. But even they could not always understand Asia and Africa. So we must cultivate that author here to profess it and I thank you very much for being here you added so much to this series and I like you point out that our guest there Michel is being is the author of a book which I recommend now for the second time. I don't want you to forget its title goal the nature of the non-Western world and the Professor again is professor of international government our international development Graduate School of Public Administration University. Thank you and good luck. That concludes tonight's edition of the Asian Flu fire the prison with Lee Graham. This series comes to you through the cooperation of the Asia Society. If you would like to comment on tonight's program or would like further information about the society and how you can participate in its many interesting activities please write to Mrs. Graham

at WNYC in New York City 100 0 7 and make a note to join us again next week at this time for another edition of the Asia Society presents. This is the national educational radio network.