Voices of Europe; Martin Niemo_ller and Karl Barth

Voices of Europe produced and recorded by Milton Mayer in cooperation with the University of Chicago under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters. On this program Milt Mayer will conduct two interviews. The first is with Pastor Martin E. Miller and a second with Professor Caro Bart and now Milton Mayor Martin Neymar is certainly the greatest name in contemporary German Christendom Lutheran. Incidentally who is particularly active in the German kitchen TOG which in one of the great religious festivals each year unites Germany's Protestants and Catholics. Doctor anymore became a pastor only after having been a naval officer and serving as commander of a U-boat in the first world war an opponent of Nazi ism and the founder of the German confessional church which refused to buy out a Nazi church control. He

was sent to concentration camp after he published a book in 1937 under the title God is my hero. Today he is president of the church of a state of Hessen and not solved. And as the leader of the so-called German neutralised movement between east and west. MARTIN Neymar it is as always an extremely controversial man. Destiny more or what is the Christian church the Christian church is this side of him. Oh Christ due to send enthuses will to live love who is and devoted real. The mission given to muster and not as a vision is what is the mission of the church in order to know what is

a dragon has to do with his world because I think that is the question in bridge Bieber to be. I'm mostly interested in Indian River. Most ever really do have the church the Christian church is to be. We know of the salt of the earth and the light of the world. In what way. With what program does the level of the earth and is it within the hour or the purpose of the church really lead to a life in the world. I should say yes because to be the light of the world means that the world has to be enlightened by what the church is doing in this world and the meaning of salt is that the salt is meant to change the dish

and use of certainty. Is this what you call the program of the church. This mission of showing the image of Christ Jesus as a real man according to real of God that really means something. It really means changing solar changes it and life changes of darkness. And in so far as a promise to the church that if the church will be obedient to her must she will succeed in one way or the other in changing his will. I know something about writers of finishing your day. I have tried sincerely to be obedient to my master and you can judge this question but

certainly we should not pretend that we were the judges of other Christians in this respect. We can put them this question or lead to such an extent and research regard that as they may be induced to re-examine trade schemin and to re-examine themselves whether or not they have tried sincerely to be obedient to the most and I think it is the most important thing for the church to do to sharpen the conscience of people who call themselves Christians and who want to be Christians that they give is in see a genuine and real harms of themselves as to their obedience. Can the church judge his self in the church

as a church judge its own success or failure in its mission in its worldly mission here I should see. Yes. Because as a church the discipleship of Christ as you said the church that was free was assembled in his name and in his presence with the Holy Spirit Carries a promise that this Holy Spirit will lead the church into all truth and the church has to examine and to reexamine herself as to this truth. It's a community you and I. Belonging to Jesus Christ. We have to yes to examine each as I you know weigh whether we have done the right thing in a given situation or whether we have done the wrong thing.

It's not all years it's not just that. But we have to look after this and we have to trust the Brummies that we shall be led into or through. And now let us look at the church historically in Europe in the past say the past 40 years or so or in time of war and social revolution and how the revolution of upheaval all economic a lowly you know racial national What is the Christian Church in relation to these past 50 years. It was a great how far we have come to see at least 10 years ago in what we call the

confessional to the gods a confession of guilt of the of God. There's a church has declared that she has and that we as Christians have failed and the Boynes as to which the church has confessed to have failed. Our Question of the character you just have mentioned namely as to war if through economic revolution begun nomic revolution and social revolution and sort of thoughts of changes in the life of humanity in the lives of men it is a living together of men in the living together of Bieber's and nation. And you saw him I who belong to the subscribers of the Declaration of Stuttgart myself I'm firmly convinced that the church has failed but I think

it is progress that a church comes to see that she has failed and renounces to save justification and to see everything as being right what we did. We no longer can say zees The question is will the judge learn her lesson from what she has come to see as having been a failure in her attitude and in her history. To what extent since the day the ration of the garden in which the Evan Jellicoe church of Germany into the front of shoulders the guilt for what had happened in Germany under national socialism. To what extent has the Christian church since that has been the mall or. Learn this lesson or to what extent has it shown that it has learned a

lesson. I think that in is the Ewings of first years following. Here's a straight guy declaration they have been fired and number of encouraging signs in the behavior of the Protestant churches in Germany. Thinking of how the church has spoken out for the sort of right of the human being to renounce war and war so is the conscientious objection and suchlike thing that the Church has spoken of for instance against war with the declaration that there is no blessing no problem is in violence that the church is several times hairs and said that no soul usually accept peaceful solutions could be of according to the will of God into the will of Jesus Christ and the

circumstances of our day. I am sorry to say that during the last five years ever since the question of Riyadh and invest in western Germany has come. There is obviously a draw or receding of the tree from the zero origin stand which it has taken before because there is a tendency to giving in again and again. Cousy right for us already to the state of our story. We have not yet got rid from our believing in your story and even to follow the advice and the order of of all your stories the more then the orders and your story of

the one whom the Church calls home Monster in Law and in so far. We are fighting just for this moment and you will sort of struggle. A very small minority as it was in the times of our old people taking the stand that we have to obey Christ rather than any of your stories. He and the other against the except for expressing. That according to my opinion and conviction we have to fight by a small minority. Imaginary. He reaches back to believing in zeal story of the stage of the stage of visuals and of the stage exponents astern him or what. Now the answer of the Christian church to one of the other great problems characteristic problems of our

time namely war war war two wars we have had there there will not be of a war he said. The world ruining itself but I think the question of violence is even more important of the question of just war. I sings as if holding you would Testament is full of warnings against the use of while I sing. I cannot imagine any situation in which Jesus himself was never would have resorted to violence. I have been as you know enough or so myself. Elective office a BS done before the World War and yet today I asked most of the reson my eyes have been blinded and closed all of the time in readings and you did this to me and it's

so obvious to me that there is no recommendation no violence or anything like war or schools in New Testament but there are only warnings and warnings again and I think that really means something. Focus should be releasing that Christians cannot speak of war as of something I know voidable something more or less natural. War is sin then there's a broader act of sin and we have to not only to renounce it we have to yes to fight it in the Christian or ought not to do have or not to to have anything to do with war. Finally asking the lawyer what would you presume to advise the Christian church. Of America the Christians of America as to what the Christian Church in America ought to be and ought to

do. If you Woods's Gresham's this way what my advice would be does a Christian churches in America. Then I can see only one thing. Nothin's a direction of your general and the special missions but he should see if you go in yourselves and if we are like you ourselves. Christian then we have to ask ourselves day by day and in any decision which is asked from us we have to ask ourselves whether We'll relieve the God and Jesus cries as oh oh sorry. Thank you Pastor me lor. In the same way that Martin name our of Germany might be designated the greatest living creature. There are many who would call Carl Bart the greatest living theologian. It is certainly true that every modern theologian

has had to confront the thinking of this great Swiss and that most of them all over the world are either pro Bart or anti Bart regarded as the father of what is perhaps too loosely called New York the dock's Protestantism KARLGAARD at 70 has received all of the highest academic honors which the world can bestow. One of the most recent having been an honorary degree conferred upon him by the Duke of Edinburgh on behalf of the University of Edinburg in recognition of the completion of the translation into English of Professor Bart's immense theological treatise on church don't matter. I am interviewing him in his little home on the outskirts of Basel in his native Switzerland where a widower reads Earle Stanley Gardner mysteries and receives the visits of his children and his ten grandchildren.

Professor Bart is the pilgrim making any progress. If you understand men and such and even men under Christian influence and if you understand by progress making all of humanity. I say let us be cautious. To us the Pilgrim's Progress humanity is making me and our science of involvement in regards aspects

but on the whole I can't believe I know the awful progress of humanity even of humanity. Corinna. First of all I should say we have no biblical witness who makes the exact calls we will introduce in CS. And secondly to see if we look

to what kept them. Also since 2000 years. We must ask ourselves whether humanity become as a whole. Perhaps we could ask even not so many falling backs behind. Examples of Greek and dignity. If you will remain so rude to refrain from such a suggestion as that is

progress. But I know what you think and know so it's a lot. Goto's governs the world. He's making we and he knows humanity and he knows his purposes and he is progressing with us even if we really mean all this the same even if we fall back. So that's it's an appearance of history. But behind car than service calls us he's way and let us thrust on him and not rest on what humanity has done and can do wouldn't little to

into future. And the works of our own hands. Yes Professor Bart those who believe that humanity has made great progress and there are certainly a few such in America. Point to the improved material condition of the human race and to the elimination for example of chattel slavery as evidence of real development and in the human situation. So I should say so. So it's the wrong words. Show us reality. So I don't know.

But genes are also good points but. When slavery has been abolished. Well new difficulties has arisen since then and also on New Order us who are not yet overcome but who has who has increased since sees improvement see so set the IDR of channel progress can't be proved even by examples of these kind. When a Christian is a free man. Not for him personally only but also for the prophet or that what they call you militate means openness to get from this and humanity

who it is so to say I don't know what observers in English what I call humanity mortal. You know because if we are humble we are to get in so far as we as we belief in ourselves we are not together you know separate There is only there is only one question I can think of. Professor Bart which might be asked. At this point the humility the which enabled me and to if I understand you see himself as a part of all the other man known as a partner not as a partner of all other men. Does not this humility have a tendency

to. Deprive him of his ambition and of his striving. This of course in all me know this complaint you heard before. No. No. Only out of these humility he will be strife and he will also have ambitions to see but knows a real ambitions not necessarily your wants see will share the unnecessary ones and which are the real. Of an unnecessary and Bishan is for example. A yard. I must be all right. I and you are wrong. See. Unnecessary ambition in the contrary it is

the right of all of us to and we will always be wrong. Over against suicide I don't know I have to look upon this right but you want us all and from day to day it means an ambition yes and to strive for it. But now we are on the real plane and not in the dream because of the awful things out of the rain. The reality as we call it in our ordinary daily life. Yes this is the dream that sort of thing. That's a yes. Yes. And just a word more to make to make the reality of the actual reality of home a little

clearer. Can you speak to that point just a little further. Well look it's an ultimate reality. Peace and growth and he's real and he's he's not spoken to us and no living for ourselves in reality means. Accept his smirk and he you know he's and become obedient and then we are ask reaches us poor mans. We are on the solid ground of court. Do you see it as a point of reality because

reality means ultimately I really do not want to call it so. Yes Professor Burt In closing I should like to ask you I don't know if this is a question you feel competent to answer. As a European Christian. Is there anything which you should like to say specifically to the American Christians. No I don't think that they are competent. I have never been in America and I know many Americans who come here in order to see it. I like them but I don't look upon them as Americans but as

human and Christian beings. I don't like CeCe aspect of America or Europe against So let us try to leave and to get through and let those not to believe in our stand that it's an American way of life and to European Luckily of life. So I was but one way of life and we are in the same boat. And so I have no spatial need to tell you something about a message for Americans. If I have something like a message. Well sense of mystery for me.

For you all. You see. Yes thank you very much Professor of our voices of Europe was produced and recorded in Europe by Milton Mayer in cooperation with the University of Chicago under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center. This program is distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This program has been introduced by Martin piousness This is the end E.B. Radio Network.