Your Congress today; Congressmen & administrative agencies

Nearly two centuries ago the new constitution of a new nation was read and proclaimed in the Town Halls of America. Legislative Powers herein granted shall be bested and I have United States consist of my Senate and House of Representatives. The House of Representatives will become. These were the words that gave birth to one of the three branches of our government. The legislative nation has grown what has become of this branch of the governmental branch of this what is the status of your Congress today. University Radio. Broadcaster. Here is your narrator.

The Liberty Bell has lost its resonance and the many bells ringing out the message of government have ceased to toll a new bell rings. Listen. This is the bell any tourist to our nation's capital can hear through the corridors of our Capitol building. This is the bell which summons your congressman to his voting chamber when he arrives there. Why does the vote the way he does. What importance are you the voting constituency who he represents. What importance are his party the special interest groups the president the Supreme Court and the administrative agencies of government. On today's program we consider the last of these six potential influences on his legislative behavior. That is the position of the administrative agencies of government to get a glimpse of the relationship between members of Congress and the agencies. I talked with two congressional leaders House majority leader.

To. My first interview was with Congressman McCormick who has been a member of the House of Representatives for nearly three decades serving as Democratic whip and majority leader on a number of times. Congressman McCormack does the Congress have constitutional authority to establish and control the administrative agencies of government and the Congress having the power to establish them and establishing them by law does have the power to control only administrate of agencies. A matter of fact mostly that trait of agency is originally intended and intended to be arms of and a sense of Congress cautiously in the carrying out of the law or the wisdom and to the extent of control is another question. Is there any difference insofar as congressional responsibility is concerned between the governmental

departments that is the major departments of Defense and the Treasury and so on. As opposed to the independent regulatory commissions like the FCC and the ICC. You have in mind the cabinet opposite head to the Poppins with a Cabinet rank versus the independent regulatory Atlanta I would say then practical operation there is a different because. The independent regulatory commission is now more closely identified with the legislative branch are they should be than the departments of government either strictly within the executive branch and being members of the president's cabinet or closely associated with him. Of course Congress in various ways can inquire. I don't like the word control but it has the power to. Whether it's the department of an independent agency or not an independent agency to explore and to investigate and survey and

to get about all the information that is desired in any particular matter. But there is a difference in my opinion between what I strickly the patents of government and the independent regulatory commissions in the case of any irregularity perhaps. Well the difference Carrie to who has the power to remove say the heads of these agencies when that's determined by a large cost and even an independent agency the president makes the appointment usually subject to confirmation by the Senate I know of no exception to that. And it's then they remove it in accordance with the law. I never had anything done by a member of the agency of course the president has. Extraordinary powers there are some appointments of a fixed term and we know the legal questions arise in connection with that and others are at the whim of the president's according to what the law establishing a particular independent independent agency is in that respect. But if a member of an agency

commission that anything is wrong there should be much difficulty in getting rid of him. Maybe a little more mall a bar is one way then the other but the power of the president of the Congress through their. Through arousing public opinion in the president through direct action ought to be able to handle a situation. Do you fail as some people contend that the independent agencies constitute a fourth branch of government in any respect. Well it's never intended that they constitute a fourth branch of government the independent agencies there. Supposed to be more closely related to the Congress and the executive although they they enter into both jurisdiction. If an agency is administered in accordance with the law. I don't think there's any danger of a pause branch of government but it's where they stretch the law. The intent of Congress where they put their own personal interpretation upon it where influence enters into it and they act contrary to

that trust. Then it might well be said that they become a port by ancient government for example we have the FCC investigation going on now by a House committee which had disclosed amazing actions on the part of some of the members of the FCC and certainly they acted without regard to the law. The intent of Congress and one could well say that in connection with those actions they thought themselves to be separate and distinct in the sense became a fourth branch of government so call it whatever that is and do these commissions rightly or wrongly have any judicial powers or yes they have quayside you additional powers and again that's through necessity wady that when a person applying for a television station are as nominee before the instate Commerce Commission in connection with transportation rates. Either they go to the caught so or they go to a

commission and those involves evidence and questions of fact and that's that and the determination of those questions are judicial and in the case of an agency that grace I did YOU WILL POWER to distinguish from a straight administrate of powers I would say the stipends of agencies were necessary as a result of the crowded problems imposed upon the government in consequence of the tremendous changes and I'm economic system and the problems arising therefrom. So you think that it's necessary and perhaps one of these conditions desirable that the commissions have these powers if they FCC didn't do it would have to create some other agency to go through the laborious stage of receiving evidence and passing upon it now that doesn't mean to say that that anybody agree. You cannot go to the cause but they go on questions of the law and the main is the increase in the number and complexity of agencies a natural result of our changing society or do you think it's an expression of bad government as perhaps some people might know it's not a bad

government. The exercise of it might be bad government like in the case of the FCC where men abuse their trust but unfortunately that's human nature and those things develop and when they do we've got to act drastically to get rid of such individuals. The increase in the number and complexity of agencies as I see it as a result of the increase in the complexity of our economic system in consequence of the inventive genius of man in the simplest economic society. Don't have these challenging problems arising that come out arise and confront all legislative bodies particularly the Congress where we have such of an intense and rapidly changing economic system because our political problems and I use the word political in the terms on the governmental level and not on the level of political parties our political problems follow. I cannot make changes that way you have a stabilized economy usually a political and social conditions are pretty well wedded to that and they have pretty well stabilized but in recent years we've been just going

forward and changing and our political problems political question is to bring justice to the people and prevent inequities. Increasing many fall. Do you anticipate a further increase perhaps with the space age you have us. Yeah that's where we are in the advent of the nuclear age now and who knows where was going to lead us. We read about the space age it's amazing what discoveries have been made and projected not only for the immediate future but for years ahead what can be done and the questions are going to become more and more complicated when Congress is not in session. Congressman McCormick can the members of Congress hold adequate check over the activities of the agencies of government. Yes. It's all again and Mr. McConnell is dependent upon the interest of the committees of Congress to take. You were a member out of the legislative reorganization bill passed several years ago. You specifically gave the committees of Congress the power and the authority to check

through on legislation that came out of that committee and to see if the agency not Department administering the law are doing so in accordance with the intent of Congress and in the fish in an effective manner. Again it comes back to the chairman and the members of the committee if they want to do what they have the power to do what. And then while Congress is not in session when Congress is not in session they can do it through a very efficient staff without a general service without a general services administration is concerned. House Committee on Government operation and the Senate Committee on Government Operations. Through their staff Congress is not in session is constantly checking and it's not embarrassing to the to the agency. It's a sort of a coordinating understanding has risen and it helps the agency and it keeps Congress informed then when status taps get any information that disturbs them. They can call it the detention of the chairman of the committee

and the members of the committee and usually there's a particular subcommittee appointed for this for that purpose. I have heard it said that although agencies are often established to curtail the activities of certain special interest groups that perhaps before long the interest groups are actually controlling the agencies. Do you believe that this contention is true. Well I do not believe the contention is true but again we cannot ignore it because the special interest groups and working all the time they work in various directions all of them are not operating in a wrong way. But some of them do employ him Papa methods of trying to obtain there. And in their desire to go. And again it comes back to the type of men who are appointed in agencies on matters concerning a judicial question I think it's wrong for anyone to commit himself a man sitting in the position of a judge and a member of an agency

does when he's when he's passing upon you additional question in a quayside you diesel capacity. I think it's wrong for him to permit anyone even his closest friends are saying anything which might tend to influence his judgment. Well he's passing on questions of fact involving the rights of individuals or corporations or groups. And yet that I know we know that it goes on it's not the general rule but I see exception but unfortunately that exception develops too often. It's a great trust. And while some of them say I did not violate the law there's a great a law that man made law there's a law of God there's the Marra law yes. So when a man is passing upon the question of violation of the law he might not violate from a legal list to gag a provision of man made law. Whereas what he does is it doesn't do it a clear violation of the MOLLE office so that the intent of Congress insofar as these agencies are concerned can only been born out when you have. Members of the agencies who are a man of high moral caliber

and then no question about it I see actually arguing about government as the I would you know by way of life. And there's the I would should be the way you live every individual's thinking and action. After talking with Majority Leader MCCORMACK I made arrangements to interview Representative William G bray of Indiana. Elected to the house in 1950 Congressman Bray is now a member of the important Armed Services Committee. Congressman Bray we hear a lot these days about congressional inquiry into the activities of agencies which are part of the executive branch of government. Is the Congress constitutionally responsible for the behavior of such agencies only to a certain degree certain executive agencies were created by

act of Congress that does not mean that Congress could take over and operate these agencies. It's a very fine distinction between executive you know and legislative power. In fact we often have been often instances where each who tried to usurp the powers of they the other. But as to the investigation of any executive agencies I think that is well justified. That is assuming that the intention is toward making a possible laws. You know on regulation yes it day on question with a prerogative of Congress and also they have a right to go into the executive agencies in order to determine the amount of appropriations that should be made that is always the job of Congress. But as to take him over to try to operate them that some plea is legally wrong. Do you feel that the problem of congressional responsibility increases with time

either in the establishment of new agencies or the policing so to speak of existing ones. If I understand your question I believe that Congress has been in recent years say the last 25 years has been taking out less authority using less authority than what they inherently have. That is the executive has been usurping whether correctly or not as a matter to be. Perhaps I should not try to determine have been using undue influence over the legislative actions. That happens often in time of war are to a very strong or a strong willed executive that is liable to develop but the tendency has been let's say in the last 25 30 years or so why the executive well is becoming stronger. The tendency has also been has it not for the number of agencies to increase even the number of departments very much. Youth do you feel that this is an indigenous part of

the growing of the country or that this is just bad government. It is a natural result. I do not think it is good but when a civilization and our whole economy become more complex you're going to have to have more agencies. For instance before you had radio our television you would not have had a Federal Communication Commission that's right and until you started having roads and rail road going from one state to another you would not have had an Interstate Commerce Commission. In fact they usually will not be a new agency. Established unless there has been at least some need or apparent need for some regulation along that line. So the old Jeffersonian idea of the that government is best which governs least is a very relative thing these days and perhaps becoming more and more relevant I'm afraid we're not placing due emphasis on it. Do you find that these administrative agencies help or hinder you in

pursuit of your congressional activity. Naturally the more the agency you get the more complicated government becomes and the larger those agencies get the more difficult it is to get proper proper action. I think that that has increased the job of a congressman a great deal because it for instance. Health Education and Welfare it bound to be very complicated spread out all over the country many times a rather simple question is difficult for a person to get an answer to it. It usually here in Washington where a matter is finally you know sandbar comes initially where it many time takes a congressman to get out from under that great heavy pile of papers in which hit this problem finds itself. But if there isn't a great heavy pile of papers these agencies can provide the congressman with informational services that help him.

Oh yes I found him very very cooperative on the whole I. I cannot say that they haven't haven't tried that many instances when it came up on a Veterans Administration. This is a typical case where a veteran be going to school and. He couldn't get his check that he was supposed to get ANY couldn't even get an ass or promise Sometimes he'd go in without eating. Yes and I found that they can be congressional offices alert a letter or a telephone call. You really get a very quick answer to a problem. I think they are Congressman Yaba along that line you've been going to become more and more important as government with more and more complicated and big government. And yes naturally it did only two or three managed department you can get an answer very quickly. And when that two or three man and couple hundred thousand manage very difficult.

What about when these congressman's offices are closed during the summertime when Congress is not in session. Do you feel that the Congress then has adequate opportunity to get answers from these agencies. A well-run congressional office has people there in the summer time just the same in fact we make no difference in the operation of my office in Congress in sation or not in a citation. Our problem as far as taking care of the little problems of the people in the district is that just as busy. Ice in Congress is not unsafe nor practically So when you make contact with one of the experts in the Department of Defense can you assume that the information you obtain is valid accurate or do you. Have you arrived in any method of a testing the validity or accuracy of the knowledge you must always consider the interest of the person you're talking to. Let's assume that they wanted to get universal military training bill which they attempted to a few years ago.

Yes you naturally you would not call and ask the secretary of the army are a lot of his assistance his advice as to the Important that legislation because they you know like you're going to get otherwise he would be a whole new job. So but when you take a matter that they're not working under direct a direct plan that they're all they must follow. I say that advise they there is they must follow they're going to stay that that unless it's something like that. You did advice you get is good. Well I've heard it said that Congress is like the proverbial cat chasing its tail insofar as the establishment of administrative agencies is concerned. People who make this kind of remark say that a new bureau is set up to regulate the special interest groups for example or certain interests and before long these interests are regulating the agency. Do you believe Congressman Brady that this is the case. Well we have set up too many different bureaus and departments

you know unquestionably For instance a few years ago they came before the Armed Services Committee in Wanda's stably many many assistant secretaries of the Army Navy Air and all the Department of Defense. I had some experience in that field and had talked with the military men many of them retired and others who would want to talk off the record. They said that the man will not be an asset that they will be a detriment. I raised a question in the committee that I doubted the wisdom stablish in this many assistant secretaries. Yes and I got hit to say the blackjack over the head all know this. They need this and it's very very important. I had a player in satisfaction a few days ago. Hearing as discussed in the committee that we simply had to get rid of some of them they're absolutely in the way and we are planning legislation to eliminate quite a few of them.

Yes I was just there a minute not to mention I told you so. You think it's possible then to have agencies comprised of men who are not really connected with the particular interests for example members of the Maritime Board who are not shipping people themselves are not planning to become shipping people in the near future and who can act as experts with no vested interest in them. But frankly those type of boards are usually pretty well appointed because they are expert present Tariff Commission. Those men are very capable man. It's something like the recent Federal Communications Commission there where I have great difficulty because there those men are not experts in that field except annoying law. But if a commission that is people of peculiar knowledge and ability. Usually they're fairly well I think well run so the agencies are here to stay and you can have good government if they're not allowed to get out of hand the only

way we can get rid of the agency to get rid of the legislation are the problems that create that force that agency to be created. I sing and bet we found some agencies that certainly have bar far outlived their usefulness for many many years. So one of Congress's responsibilities is to cut back wherever they can and we haven't we haven't done too that a job at that I'm afraid. When I returned to the campus of Indiana University I asked Professor p l n d on a socialist of the department of government to listen to the tape recorded interviews for a brief some ation of the program topic. The congressman and the administrative agencies of government. I one of the views of a specialist in the field. While I'm after listening to these interviews one might get the

impression perhaps that they were talking about two rather different things when referring to the administrative agencies of government. Family contact that congressman had with these agencies where they in actuality citing major differences. Let me try to develop a distinction in a very broad sense the administrative branch of government that is the law. Our policy executing branch embraces all departments agencies commissions and authorities. However a doe distinction does exist one to which both of the congressman had referred. This distinction is rather a fine one since under any circumstance Congress must create the departments agencies commissions and authorities. For example the Federal Communications Commission which is responsible for regulating the communications industries was created by an act of Congress in 1934. And the Department of Health

Education and Welfare was created by an act of Congress in 1953. Now there's a second point to which we might refer and that is that appointments the men who are to head these agencies or departments are appointed in similar fashion. The president nominates and the Senate confirms the nomination. The major point which which distinguishes one from another is in terms of control of the departments are under a cabinet member. And therefore they are subordinate to the chief executive. While we assume that the regulatory commission such as the Interstate Commerce Commission are independent of executive control and that probably they are more closely associated with Congress. If anything this had led back in the 1930s to the adoption of a concept of the fourth branch of government. This

idea of independent regulatory commissions not being subordinate to either branch that is the executive or legislative branch. And having certain powers would certainly had life and death affect over the American people probably wouldn't be that bad but nevertheless some business men who are subject to the controls of any one of these commissions must feel that they do have the power to impose capital punishment. Well Congressman Miller McCormack from Massachusetts left me the impression that he objected to this terminology the fourth branch of government. But as I recall he did admit to the existence of quasar judicial powers at least on the part of the independent commissions. Yes this of course has always been one of the arguments in regard to these agencies or commissions and that is that they have the the usual three powers legislative executive and judicial powers. And of course these three powers then are rolled into one and the

historic idea of the separation of powers is lost I say but they are yet responsive to the Congress and the Congress is empowered to remove members from these regulatory commission. Right. This is one of the distinctions that we want to make. The president could really remove a number of different people from Post for example he could remove postmasters or cabinet members but Congress alone can remove the commissioners. Your Congress today was produced and recorded by the Indiana University Radio and Television Service under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center and is being distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters.

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