A conversation with; #13 (Reel 2)

I believe Cleveland has and Cleveland has a chorus which was founded a year before this one was and that was the first one that was sponsored soley by a symphony and just two years ago in Oakland California. One was founded and I think these are the only three that are actually supported by an orchestral Association. Then around the country there are about 40 other artist or is that have a chorus allied with them but they are not the primary support for the chorus but that the chorus. This is the only choral group that the orchestra uses. I'm sure you are well aware of the role that a an organization such as the Chicago Symphony Chorus plays in the musical lives the cultural life of the city because of the membership of this chorus has a large percentage of musicians who are themselves active as musicians I believe. Yes a great man so in a sense these people study in the field.

Well you know it's very funny. I have several members who will. A little bit kidney in the distance I'll come around and they'll say with their sixth or seventh or maybe eighth season I joined for one year in order to spy on you. And he says here it is six years later and I'm still there but of course when I came I realized the kind of role of the chorus should play in the community and I felt very strongly that it should be the standard bearer not just of choral music. And as a chorus and as an example but a standard bearer musically in the community and worked very hard to try to make this come about. We've had some educational classes for the members in diction in foreign languages. Next year I will have a class in international fanatics. These classes meet for an hour before each rehearsal and we have some specialists in these areas

come in to teach. And as a result we help in the growth of somebody like Sherill Milnes. We have several ex-members who are now in the European opera houses and they learned a great deal about languages about musical disciplines as a result of their membership in the chorus. Many of them three or four years in the chorus and then they would branch forth on their own. You were speaking before of the demands of your rehearsal schedule. Could you tell us a little more about that what kind of time commitment to these people have to make. They burst every Monday evening from 7 to 10 and about every fourth or fifth week and I work on a Saturday afternoon to see the altos from 2 to 5 in The Sopranos overlap by an hour and work four to seven. And on Sunday afternoon of that same weekend the base's followed by the tenors. So that they had they had sectional rehearsals every

four to five weeks. This is the route the seas this is throughout the season. And. A performance week they have a forwarder saw on the Sunday afternoon preceding the performance and Monday night is usually the conductor's piano rehearsal. Then Tuesday 437 Wednesday 437 and more often than not it's Thursday night Friday afternoon and Saturday night performance. Occasionally we do just a Thursday afternoon Friday at Thursday night Friday afternoon but this is seven days running for the Misses solemnised says so it's really quite something up sing that piece every day for seven days straight. But they did it and they always will stretch themselves a little bit beyond what they really can do both in terms of commitment of time and and energy and they sometimes do things that they never dreamed that they could do musically as well. You're listening to a conversation with Margaret Hillis with her own parson and

George Stone. We paused 10 seconds for a station identification. Now resuming the conversation with Margaret Hillis here is Aaron Parsons. Miss Hillis we talked about working with Fritz Reiner as choral conductor. You've worked with many conductors I know. Yes. Be interested to know some of the experiences you've had. You prepare a work and then you hand it over to the conductor but collusions do you have. Or you begin rehearsing this well it varies from one conductor to another with Reiner. I always got a very carefully marked score and if we were doing a Beethoven work I would always try to get a recording of Beethoven or of course Beethoven I knew Reiner very well and but the first time we did when we did Judas Maccabee s he was a little slower than

usual and getting a mark score to me. And he had not recorded any Handel so I got the recordings that he had done of the Brandenburg Concerti just to see how he thought in this area. And of course there was the usual marvelous clarity and rhythmic detail in the inner voices. And I got his mark score. No I didn't get one on that at all. And he came to the rehearsal and I had missed the articulation on one piece that was on and he wanted staccato and I prepared it legato and the tempi were all pretty much the same. But usually I would go up to his home in Westport and go over a score with them in detail before the preparation he was very very clear in his mind he knew exactly. Months in advance. How this piece should sound and how he was thinking at how it was in his ear. Then there will be other conductors who are going to play it by ear when they get to

the rehearsal. So what do you do in that case is prepare your own idea of the piece. Which in some ways is a little easier because you don't have to walk around in somebody else's clothes. And I really almost prefer to hand the conductor my own conception of the piece than if there are changes to be made there is something from which the change can be made. You can say the ending must be short instead of long or if the temple. I remember I did a Brahms Requiem for Martin nine and I had not seen him ahead of time I'd asked him for a score and so on are not been able to get a hold of it he was very busy so I went ahead and prepared my own idea of the piece not knowing there are certain mental muscles that are taken traditionally in Europe that are not taken here and I didn't take them. And I thought to myself I wonder if I should warn the chorus that he may do

this. And I didn't and he came to the rehearsal and sure enough he took it and they went right where they was if they always rehearsed it that way. But they couldn't have unless there was a very clear conception of the work that they really understood the work in a certain kind of way. And you cannot hand a conductor when you prepare something for I am just a blank page because notes are nothing. There has to be some feeling of the relationship. There has to be an order brought out of the chaos of these little black things running around on the page you know there's reconciliation of the points of view would occur in the music or is that the piano rehearsal occasional Les I found. I'll leave this conductor unnamed I've prepared a concert in New York it was the criminal boron and this man came to the to a piano rehearsal earlier than he was to come because he was very nervous about all this. And as it happened the chorus was ready and it was a chorus you know the

chorus is will vary and there are. Characteristics the same way orchestras will remember the first time it conducted the Pittsburgh orchestra. The strings spoke immediately the winds lagged a little bit in the orchestra that I've worked with around New York City the strings always lagged a little bit in the winds were right on the point of the beat and it takes you about two or three minutes to readjust enough so that you take care of this choruses. Some will have a tendency to drag others will have a tendency to rush. Others will be fine when it comes to Temple control and maybe they go a little flat or maybe you know this that in the other it always varies. But this chorus was very stable when it came to a temple. So I did about 45 minutes of this rehearsal and then said as far as I'm concerned it's ready for you. And if you would like to take the last hour you're very welcome to it. Well he did and immediately the chorus started rushing and I was sitting with the pianist turning pages for and this is just a remarkable musician who was

playing and he said I don't understand why I can't follow him. And I kept watching and watching and I couldn't understand either why but it was obvious that it was not possible. We got with the orchestra. Well then he did another piano recital same problem he kept complaining to them that they were rushing so we got to the orchestra rehearsals in New York Philharmonic and he was complaining of the orchestra as they were rushing. So at the performance he was doing on the first part of the classical symphony he was doing some the Rosenkavalier waltzes was of the waltzes and I went into the wings at the stage and I watched to find out if I could figure out a way to hold a temple with this mat and I found out how and that was not to believe the upbeat and I began testing myself and seeing how many beats I'd have to watch before I was sure of the temple. So I went back downstairs and the chorus was all gathered together and I said I

think I figured this one out. It's a don't believe the upbeat don't believe the second beat you get but by the time you get to the third beat you'll know what the tempo is then watch for the fourth to be sure you're in. And they sort of looked at me as if this is it possibly I said just do it and see what happens. So they got up there and they did it and they held the temple and they held the arc Istra and he came off the stage raving about this great chorus the only chorus he'd ever worked with that could hold the temple and it was just simply because I outwitted him. If you do these things for the sake of a performance for the sake of music. Everything that you possibly can to make it as good as you possibly can. You worked you prepared for us from a vault I believe one time that was the first appearance of the Symphony Chorus made here in Chicago and it was a Brahms and you know it was the Mozart Mozart Requiem Requiem. And I remember going to see him in New York about

I'd listen to a recording that he had made with the Westminster choir and there were certain things I wasn't sure whether it just happened that way or whether he really intended it to be that way. And so I went around to talk to him to find out. And he came out and he was delighted with the choruses work. He had two kinds of beginning beats and one of them was where he intended for the sound to be right on the point of the beat and the other one is where he wanted more gentle beginning and he intended it on the rebound from the beat. If you watch the upbeat properly you could figure out very easily which one he wanted. Course this is the first time this chorus ever appeared in public and they were nervous and they gave him every sound right on the downbeat at the first performance. And so the next day when I was warming them up to the Friday afternoon programs as if this was really an extraordinary performance you did last night. One of the tenor said but. And I think there is a misunderstanding about Mr Bottoms. And then

I showed them and rehearsed it a little bit and showed them exactly where this happened in the scar in action and there was no problem. Still as we have discussed quite frequently one aspect of the problem which confronts the music directors of major American orchestras today and we've had varying replies to one question as to whether it is feasible to have a music director and a second conductor of equal stature. Mr Stokowski for example said that he thinks this is perfectly possible. He cited the example of the season when he was music director of The New York Philharmonic and when Dmitri Metropolis carried a major portion of the season's schedule. On the other hand another prominent conductor on the American orchestral scene at the moment told us that he felt this was

impossible because jealousies would arise inevitably during the course of the season. He felt that there had to be somebody of supreme importance and another person of lesser importance. And I'd be interested to know since it's the very nature of your work to work in close harmony with people of great stature who must recognize your stature as the choral director whether you think this is possible or would it depend entirely upon the personalities. I think it depends to a great extent on the personalities involved. I think probably equal stature brings about less jealousy than unequal stature because the underdog is always going to feel it and they're going to be resentments that it would be very hard for him to deal with where if a man is a top figure in his field there is a sick and inner

security about it. I know the relationship between Steinberg and Leonard Bernstein for instance where there is an enormous mutual admiration. I've heard both men speak of the other with great respect. And there isn't this jealousy and no backbiting at all. There is a genuine respect and I think that if there is a difference in the personalities and a different kind of music making and perhaps different repertory that this solves many many problems. There's another facet to this problem of the music directors extremely heavy load these days because of the long seasons and the demand for new repertory and so on and apparently here in Chicago there has been a solution found. And you're instrumental in affecting this as assistant to the music director. You review with a great

many new schoolers. Yes. I'd be very interested to know more about this. First of all the quantity of such material which comes in and then how you go about separating the wheat from the chaff as it were. Well there is. Actually this past season because it was missed Mark and I was last season here. There was not a great deal of material that came in because it usually comes in in the hope that is going to be performed and the composers know that he is leaving this country and therefore there's been very little coming and the season before. I think there must have been a hundred twenty five hundred thirty big scores that came in. Now I sometimes will when I'm just snowed under for time because it takes time. You can't just breathe through it. Some works that are very very bad you can just breathe through right away and say thank you very much and send them back.

But then. There will be other works that are maybe and these are the ones you really have to spend the time with. Then there are works that are obviously extraordinary. This you lay aside for your own fun when you have time. You know you know right away. I sometimes will get some help on the review review of scores from a musician here in Chicago Reese judgment about this I trust very much and some of them will be called out for my special attention but usually I call them out first and take them to this corridor and say look these are the the ones that are going to take a lot of time. Would you look through them and see what you think. And she will turn them back to me and without telling me I ask her not to. Then I go over them and then we get together. It's the puzzling scores. The ones that are the ones that take the time the rest of them the very good ones I knew immediately the very bad ones I knew

immediately. So it's that group in the middle is that group in the middle that just it takes time. You know there are so many musicians for instance. I know many members of the Chicago Symphony don't really like the system guys. And the reason that they don't is that they've not spent 20 years with that score. And occasionally I can't say that I'm the solemnest has come in but a cigar will come in on the surface. You sort of wonder if you actually have to learn the piece. Really spend time with it and learn it analyze it thoroughly before you really know the core that's in it. As a portion of your analysis do you take it to the piano. Do you just read. Usually just read it. It depends you know if it's if it's a style that is pretty much in the general flow of things you don't need to go to the piano.

If it's something that is most unusual in that it takes it's difficult to grasp in the here and I will take it to the piano. What about these extremely of the guard things where where where. Actually we even depart from traditional notation. That sort of thing goes I've gone through two scores that are four and five feet tall. When you open the machine you need the whole living room floor to look at two pages actually. It's very difficult not to make an evaluation of the Musically I think so much as to make an evaluation of where they fit in terms of the Chicago Symphony because I'm doing the score reading for the pragmatic reasons of what is performable by us in a sense. The any large symphonic organization like the Philharmonic the Cleveland Chicago Symphony is a museum. In the very best sense of the word it has the

custodianship of the great masterpieces of the past. Now a group like rough shape is group at the University of Chicago is a Museum of Modern Art and the Chicago Symphony would be more analogous to the Metropolitan Museum in New York City or to the Art Institute. Here is who are you going with. As a result I do think there need to be considerably more museums of modern art than exist but there are some things that are just not. Practical for performance with the Chicago Symphony and I don't think really properly fall within its sphere for their performance I was looking over scored just the other day that combines all sorts of aleatory things it's a very exciting piece and I think a first rate one. I don't think it's one that can be done. The Chicago Symphony because I think after the first 10 minutes the hall of the empty you're going to be practical here do have the kind of special series that

they have for example with the Amsterdam conspiracy about the characters mention a special series devoted exclusively to these very far out things. Do you think there's an audience for it in a Midwest. In cities I think an audience can be developed. I think probably as a result Mr. Shapeways work at the University of Chicago that there is a great deal more acceptance and some excitement. Now that is being generated about this kind of music. I think probably to begin with it would have to be done in a small hall in a rather small scale. This is one of those things that can grow. But if one tries to plan it on a great big scale immediately I think that this is it would be a very dangerous thing because first it's enormously expensive and the expense is in a sense be sad the point if

the performance does what the performance should do. But if you have an audience present you know if the if our coaster hall is only 600 or 900 people then it better to do it in a hall the likely Pacific theater at the Opera House that seats 900 and do a series of this kind there. You have done a number of 20th century works with your special concerts with your Chicago Symphony Chorus. That is apart from orchestral performance because you've done Schoenberg. Stravinsky Della piccolo and various things how do you find these performances to go and you've done them. What is the reaction of the chorus. Also when they tackle something like Opus 35 of shooting very well the Opus 35 is it particularly difficult to rehearse at least in the early stages of it unrewarding. Once one really gets a hold of

it. There are two things that happen first a sort of miraculous look comes over their face and they realize it's really a piece of music it's not just a 12 tone row and then also a pride in the fact that they've been challenged by something other than they've met the challenge and they can sing it in tune. Actually we've never with a chorus done anything that's really far out and the. Because it was thirty five when was it written. I forget now the exact date but that's a very old piece of music. And the dollar Piccolo is quite conservative even though it is 12 tone. It's enormously concerned so that if Today however it's a very significant both of these you mention the very significant part of the 20th century. Yes and still from a choral point of view not not easy to accomplish. Do you think your you would

attack a 20th century in Evelyn and choral piece. Let's show the Symphony Chorus. Yes if there were time. The first time into something of this kind there are and here I have to admit again the techniques do apply. There are new technical things that have to be learned. There is a way of hearing that has to be developed and a way of thinking that has to be developed. I'd be delighted. I'd love to do things of this kind. And it would take enormous patience and a great deal of very hard work. But once you're over that initial hump then it opens many many doors even as old pieces the line ASR the symphony of Psalms there were many people in the chorus who just simply when we first began couldn't hear it and they couldn't get a hold of it as an

ascetic expression. And once we got to sing prepared and it made sense to them they loved it. And now when they go to a concert and they hear a stricken skip work early middle or late they listen to it with very different ears and of course the general public does not get this kind of exposure the recording companies make records of 70 fist time around on the kickoff the Fifth Symphony and it's a beautiful piece and so on but they're in business they're not in making art on but they will occasionally do something that is a little far out for them but still. I'm not sure the people really. You're right Al. I mean really hear it. Because he's one of the composers that is the bridge. And to the farther out music you must have constantly have placed before you.

Students who want to know what they can do to improve themselves. How would you answer this question of advice to musicians and specifically advised to choral conductors in relation to their own work. It depends a little bit upon where the person is in his development as to what direction. I suggest you look at him. Any musician with the possible exception of Mozart has his weaknesses and some musicians will be attracted to music out of sheer sound. Others out of rhythm. There will be different things that attract and will be particular strengths as performers to confiscate for instance doesn't really care very much about rhythm but what he cares about is beautiful sonority. And I'm sure this is what initially attracted him to music through the

years as the style of performing has changed from the enormously rubato late 19th early 20th century even into the 20s the enormously rubato performances. Through the years Stokowski's style of performing has changed and there now is considerably more emphasis upon clarity proportion and rhythm and much less on just sheer sonority although that beautiful sonority is still there. If I'm working with a student I try to find the direction of the questioning what his interests are and if the interests are too narrow. I try to broaden it to the point where he is dealing with musical materials rather than with how do you make an owl clear. Which is important but this is only important as a tool and urge them always to

learn to deal with musical materials. A beginning student begin with Bach Chorales. Have them conduct them and ask them to count the number of secondary dominants and arrive at a temple. Work with them in terms of the textures cities dealing with with the shaping of the material. What is it that is on this page and how can you get it into your ear. How can you feel it. Then after that is there you invent the techniques to make it happen. But the techniques are invented after the music itself is assimilated so that a conductor must first of all be a musician in the most profound and extensive sense. And the big problem is really the development of two things. The imagination and the discipline that can contain this imagination because imagination without discipline is insanity. But with discipline it is genius.

Very good point. Miss WILLIS It is always a pleasure to have you visit us. We were thank you very much for participating in this conversation. It's been a great pleasure thank you. We're very grateful to you Mr. Liston very enlightening. This has been a conversation with Margaret Hill us the founder and conductor of the Chicago Symphony Chorus participating where Aaron Parsons professor of music theory at Northwestern University's School of Music and program annotator for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. And George Stone program director of the unit radio corporation's radio station WEAA FM. This program was distributed by the national educational radio network.