Voices of Europe; Johan Hannak and Dr. Kurt Rothschild

The voices of Europe Milton their American author and broadcaster lecturer and professor in the Institute of Social Research from Frankfurt University today interviews Toovey unease like the good be uneasy is Herr Johann Haneke is a chess player and a world authority on chess. He has a few sidelines however. He is the political editor of the odd biters site on the official newspaper of the Socialist Party of Austria and the largest newspaper in the country. Ironic was born in Vienna in 1892 the son of a clerk. He is the historian of the Austrian socialist party and was one of the founders of the illegalize Socialist Party of 1934 when the dictatorship of Dolphin's came to power in one thousand thirty eight. He was seized by the Nazis but after a year in the concentration camps of doco and books involved he was able to go to America. Now since 1946 he is back in Vienna. Here is Milton Mayer to interview Herr Johann Haneke Herr Heinecke. I have observed in Vienna some very remarkable

phenomenon for example that the flags of the United States and the south of the Union fly side by side along with the flags of other nations. This I haven't seen anywhere else in Europe not even in Scandinavia. I have observed army jeeps riding through the international sector of the city carrying one French woman one Englishman one American and one Russian. It seems that the Russians and the Americans do a somewhat better job of living together in Vienna than they do say in Berlin. Do they in fact. You could see what you have to consider these things it will be more. First of all you must not forget that these Austria of

today is the rest of Rama where the great monarchy which contained not just warm nation the German one but 12 nations and the cultural mixture which was the result of this. All of these living together these cultural Mixter had consequences. One of these consequence is the fact that we have inherited many qualities of all these other nations and they are where we are by nature. The most appropriate people may be in Europe to compromise to see their point of view of the other fellow and therefore our whole climate of Australia is more friendly. He's

ready to do to work together to. Persuade not by twelves but by a kind of leaning and defect of our special kind of reaping may be one of the reasons that we so far are in a better state. And then it is the case in Germany have the Russians and the Americans as you are seeing them at a very close range here in Vienna and in Austria have they really been getting on better together than they do in Germany. Yes that's the that's most certainly the case. And it has always will be. Certain reason the main reason is that we had the good luck to have from the beginning. A unified government in Austria. Well as Germany had their own government army in

1940 9 of think and the consequence of this fact lost the building up of where of the East German government is there is a counterpart there who are as a continuation of the division of the two parts of Germany. We had as I said to good luck to have a unified government from the first days of May 1945 and the see the real nature of this unified government had a consequence that the credit these government had the same influence in the Persian parts as well as in the parts of the other allies. And not another reason for our somewhat better situation is the case that the Russians see in us they're probably only kind of. Of his surance which they will keep in their hands as long as the germ in question is not thought the most decisive the decisive thing for the US

than for the Russians is their ease. The outcome of the of the German question. The moment a German question will be settled the Russian interest in Austria will not be so bleak as it is now. All the wives you Russians have very important economic questions in Austria to do the French the British or the Americans have similar economic interests in Austria they have but the difference is that they have been made there after and then says to the to do the first piece of the American French and British interests that means they are of their own kind. These economic bees missing the Western zones then sensing bad effect and I order out easier. There

is one of the four of the. Gracious of the Potsdam agreement that the so-called German property the Duchess I don't that ever it's own it belongs to the primitive to the Allied powers they has given made in the Westerns worlds in the baking to the hands of the last things it is not yet decided what will happen to the German public. But that will only be settled in the peace treaty wanted to star in the comics to stay pretty but. As far as long as there is no treaty we are entitled to go to administer these German I don't these German property ourselves. Yes Herr Heinecke is Naziism there in Austria and in Europe. I couldn't say it for you up in Astoria. It is probably dead

on a dark past him. My inner Nazi movements again we call them neo nazi movement. And guys even misshapen alimentary patted their so called the owner Pain Association of this of the independents who are probably a. Neo-Nazis But the reason why there is not much chance for them to increase in power and to regain where they are from a bigger east of the well exemplified that the Jews are no longer any France in Austria. If you remember that before Hitler in Ghana alone there were living one hundred and sixty thousand Jews in. Now they are the rest of them is now five to six thousand. Most of them all of the people in the young MTS trying to

to leave Austria to to emigrate into other countries. The question will be settled in the US. It is very simple fashion more that you have will be no Jews in the next generation and therefore know we know no reason for anti-Semitism. But this is like saying air that. Extermination of the Jews was the way to south the problem of Naziism is that the answerer does not say as a my deeper No. Unfortunately as far as the Jews are concerned that tidbit was the solution of the Jewish question in Europe. Nobody really like it but that was that is a historical fact. Now until and we are not not able to change what is what has been the what has been done but not season you are right in saying that this throws of Matthiessen lies deeper. It's not only anti-Semitism there are issues moving sued on their fishies movements

in Europe which have to do much or anything we say these are anti-Semitism and this danger certainly. Especially if there is no possibility of so I think the American aversion question. How good were the Austrians good Nazis. I must confess yes they are good. Not see this as a the I mean I will not say good good in a minor sense I have. I mean it in the sense that there were as not very strong Nazis were they in this sense as good Nazis as the Germans were in a certain sense even more real. Because it uses of the Jews started in Austin and it in only after the period during the beginning of the path of the of the Jews in Austria. It went back to Germany in to crush them mostly him in form even in Germany.

Does this Herr Heinecke say something about the Austrian character or doesn't it. It says some sink in the park it says something about the Austrian character. The Austrians are as I mentioned very easygoing people but easygoing means always will they do a bad thing the ability to change very rapidly. Opinions and in their feelings and their status of course is the danger of spotting these but the. Education and economic welfare can amend their image. Last question is socialism. The rise or fall in Austria and Europe especially reserve communism there is no doubt that communism has lost much of his appeal to to to even to the Western peoples cry it be because the Communist

Party in France in Italy had to do such a crazy things such ridiculous things to secularize the interests of all people in order to fulfill their the others which they had got. For most car they gave me a complement in their own countries. Oligarchy their communist parties in France and Italy Astill very stuck fast along and then their socialist parties of these countries. They have lost. Not as much in words has appealed to the people who are today French in the alien population they are not no longer able to reason like Tootie did the feelings of the people there have no longer confidence in the Queen these both communist parties gave birth for them because they don't see any other so far but that's not the way the community would like to have it and the nearer

you are to the island the more you can see that Communism doesn't play their own by in in in special company. He plays a role for instance in Austria not Barack a Communist Party but only by the Russian brother which cost them and their influence of the communists in Austria was in all times almost masak. Because the Austin Socialist Party. Started their count down their own in their way already in the first two are public 19 18 as a very radically movement which was which was an opposition party and therefore it was able to win it. To propose things which we have for instance not proposed by the German Social Democratic Party. The German Social Democratic Party was a governmental party

was more interested in having the government going to hide and therefore the communist influence was much stronger in Germany. Now the German Socialist have also changed they hours or more on the opposite side in death for her to their influence in our society has increased and I think that to be just in the most it's as if parts of Europe the Middle you hope socialism is still in the eye even arising and it is very strong for you. Power in scale you need here. We know in England therefore indeed if you see the whole picture. I am full of hope that communities and can be beaten not. Not those much more that we are not at all by military force but the furnace of democratic socialism that defers of yes we needing

people to die of starvation. Thank you Dr Court wrote. Children born in Vienna the son of a commercial agent attended Glasgow University in Scotland from nine hundred thirty eight to nine hundred forty and served as Lecturer in that university in economics from 1940 to nine hundred forty seven years now economist for the Institute for Economic Research of Vienna. One of these mixed bodies so frequently found in all European countries maintained jointly by the government by industry and by the trade unions and Dr. Ro chill himself is not a member of any political party. Here is Milton Mayer. Doctor wrote shield once Austria. Was a great empire and now it is what I believe in German is called a nichts that is nothing and after it became a nix in 1919 and was

broken up to it then suffered are perhaps enjoyed the US with Nazi Germany 10 years later and was subsequently divided up. Into four occupational Zoll and by Russia the United States France and England. How has Austria survive economically or has it. Well your question is of course quiet justified at all step in perhaps in more vanity story than any other European country over the past 40 years. The breaking up of the Hapsburg Empire which meant that Austria once a metropolitan province of 50 million empire became a small republic of seven million inhabitants created huge problems and one can see that in the twenties. These problems and the problem of the huge capital of Vienna

where. Very difficult problems which cost a great deal of economic suffering. Is it true in general Dr. Roche as I understand it that when Austria was separated from Hungary you had in effect an industrial country that is Australia separated from its source of material supplies a and agricultural country namely Hungary. Is that true and in essence or is that not quite right. In essence this is quite true. Also I've never been able to since 1918 to be self-supporting in agricultural materials and coal and so on. But of course after the first wave of. Protectionist policies hit past international trade just took the place of what was formally internal trade in the Habsburg Empire and one can see that by the middle of the 30s the problems of readjustment

where most moral is solved and Austin had just become more NATION. Like many other smaller nations like Switzerland Sweden Norway and others in Europe and elsewhere. So I think this first problem of the breaking up of the Empire Habsburg Empire has lost its importance today and there are no special problems arising from the smartness of Austria. But of course the Anschluss to Germany meant a new disturbance of the. Equilibrium with which was reached after so many difficult years and now and you just meant it to be me. Austria became incorporated into the economy of the German I. This readjustment was overshadowed of course by the. Effects of the war economy which meant at first and I was in employment but at the same time I left Austria after the ball was in very uneven

economic structure. The heavy industries had developed very fast while the light industries had become more efficient because it continues investment and now the country became occupied in 1945 and that of course was a new. Difficulty which prevented. A quick recovery. Although on the whole I should say that the occupation today is not a major economic problem because on the whole the government is fairly free in choosing its economic policy. Would you distinguish then Austria under the occupation. From Germany under the occupation as being economically freer or less divided. Well that I think the answer to this question is certainly yes it's five years nine hundred forty six to nine hundred forty nine or nine to 50 are concerned since then I believe. The Germans had quite a considerable degree

of freedom too in choosing their economic policy. But. I think there are harmful effects from the occupation not so much directly but indirectly. I would say there are psychological difficulties because the mere fact that the country is occupied. Has a depressing effect on the outlook of the population. It means that. Nobody planned for a long time in the future. Everybody just. Tries to think of the next. And that of course means that the development of the economy can't get along as it should. That is as far as long term investment and construction are concerned exactly what are the basic differences. Dr. Roche shale. As you see them between the American kind of economy. And the Australian or European kind of economy in general.

Well the main difference Baird says is that the typical enterprise in America is the large scale enterprise. And the evidence of mass production methods when in Austria you have. Small enterprises and still a very important sector of handcuff. And also a certain Vashon against competition. This means that they were economy has become. To a large extent catalyzed many capital capital. And. That. Is holding up economic development and technical progress. How do you square your saying that in Australia you have a large degree of small enterprise with your saying that the economy has become catalyzed to a larger extent than in America. Dr. Rajiv. Well the point is you have a tendency towards monopoly in America and in

Europe but that its a different kind of monopoly that typically monopoly in the United States is. The. Domination of an industry by one or a few big firms. The task to see is a typical case while in foster the typical case is that many a large number of smaller films combine. In what is card trade associations. Of India as a German value and these associations then determine the path and our policy of all these firms. One. One difference also is bad that in America you have. Still an expanding capitalism partly because it's a young capitalism partly because although the Phantom has gone you have still open spaces. There is

more opportunity for new investment and for finding new markets. In most European countries and perhaps in US in particular. The openings for expansion have largely gone. Therefore. Every problem tends to be more acute in Austria. Because it's it's taking place against the background of compaction or at least going to see expansion every American almost every American doctor roach. Asserts that he belongs to the middle class. I don't find that to be true in Austria or in Europe generally. That's quite true and I think the explanation for that. Can be found partly in history partly in economic circumstances. On the one hand of course you know that also that past and Europe. Have a. Long history of industrial development and.

The development of trade unions and social democratic parties that on the one hand developed. A certain. Class conscience on the part of the workers but. The other thing which is more recent is that the middle class has been largely backed out economically. There are still people who regard themselves as middle class but. It's no longer. Speech has a profound economic position that was and to be Konami depression of the early have or contributed about celebrity but it was $11. It is the middle class. Had to give up many of its. Economic advantages and then a little different between the income of American towns household in the middle class home schooling that is. Doctorow child if I understand you correctly where the working class people in America have been going up into middle class

status the middle class people in Europe have been going down into what was formerly regarded as working class status. Yes that's what I wanted to say. Well now. The Americans as you know Dr. Archie old are. Greatly concerned about. Stopping communism. And in that connection I'd like to ask you whether in your view there would be communism in Europe. If there were no savvey at Union. While of course the ten what social event communism is much older than the existence of the Soviet Union and these tendencies arise out of the. Problem. And out of the difficulties which working class people feel. They. Want a higher standard of living and they want to live without fear

of unemployment. And I believe that as long as these conditions prevail. There will be. Leading in the direction of socialism and the way to stop communism. And your view is to reverse this process that has been going on in Europe that is the sinking of the standard of living and the disappearance. Of the middle class into the insecurity. Of the working classes. Yes I quite believe that the main problem today for Europe is exactly this to Livingston that's not only of the middle classes but of course it's about to has a Marshall Plan aid had an effect in reversing this process of. The sinking of living standards Dr. Rochon. Well I think that masterplan 8 has been. Very important to get off down its feet again. In the years immediately after the war

when everything was in a chaos and there were serious difficulties. Of. Securing. Even the most essential materials and foodstuffs in the recent years of course Marshall Plan aid has declined and it doesn't play such an important part in the US and economy as it used to a few years ago. But I think the main problem today is not to question whether if you model a few less millions of dollars sent to Australia the main problem today is that austere can stand on her own feet. And that can't be achieved by pumping a few millions of dollars into Austria but that can only be achieved by affording leaching a situation develop their countries can tweet about the contents of goods are bought and buys the goods in need from the proceeds of these exports.

I think only we can say economic problem of us to be solved. And finally the living standards of the population be increased. Thank you very much Dr. Raj. In this recorded program Milton Mayer has been interviewing Herr Johann Harnick and Dr. Corder Roche field in Vienna. This program was made possible under a grant from the fund for adult education an independent organization established by the Ford Foundation. These programs are prepared and distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This program was introduced by Norman McKee and this is the end taped network.